S02.E02: Where the Stars are Strange

[paulvdb]

Quote

Darkness falls over Khazad-dûm. Sauron and Galadriel each seek new allies. The Stranger and Harfoots encounter a growing threat.

Premiere date: August 29, 2024

[AnimeMania]

[Anduin]

I'm torn. I've read and watched plenty of stories where the villain only reveals selective information to help get good guys on side. But it still feels a little convenient for Celebrimbor to buy in so completely. He's several thousand years old, he should know all the tricks. But Sauron is even older and knows how to pull them off successfully.

So who are the Stranger and the other wizard? If we're to judge by third-age behaviour, Gandalf and Saruman are the safest bets. But the Stranger it could be one of the blue wizards, while Julius Caesar might Radagast if he changes his behaviour over the next few millennia. Or they could be two other random Istari. I'm team Caesar is Radagast until proven otherwise. :)

[thuganomics85]

Yeah, Celebrimbor came off foolishly naive at best and flat-out idiotic at worst at the end.  I mean, if the shady guy won't even tell you his actual name, maybe you shouldn't be hanging onto every word that he says.  Just a thought.

Always good seeing Ciaran Hinds as this new Dark Wizard character.  If the Stranger ends up being Gandalf, I can see him being Saruman.  Intentionally or not, his performance reminded me a lot of Christopher Lee's from the films.  But I guess it's possible it's all a fake-out and they'll end up being other wizards.

I'm guessing Nori and Poppy will be find at the end, but they are certainly going to be going on a trip now!

Nice seeing Durin again, even if he and both his dad are continuing to be stubborn has all get out, when they probably just be teaming up with shit getting ready to go down.  At least Disa seems to be making steps towards convincing them to get their acts together.

Elrond initially takes his ball and goes home/starts working on boats and refuses to aid Galadriel on her new quest, only to come around at the end.  And by coming around, I mean convincing Gil-galad to actually make him be the one in charge of the mission instead of Galadriel.  Time for some interpersonal drama!

[Anduin]

On the subject of hobbits, do neither of the three know about hot weather survival? Shelter in shade whenever possible! "Let's just rest here under the bright and searing sun!" Indeed, it might be better to travel at night, though desert nights can get pretty cold. Maybe around dawn and dusk when the temperature is in between the extremes and thus more comfortable. But we have to make allowances for this being a show, I suppose.

And furthermore, the Easterlings wandering around in metal helmets. If you have to hide your faces, try cloth masks instead. Also, I don't like the whole 'stick' approach. "If he doesn't come with us, we'll kill the hobbits." How about offering food, water, and shade instead? Yes, I'm big on offering the carrot first.

[Affogato]

15 hours ago, Anduin said:

On the subject of hobbits, do neither of the three know about hot weather survival? Shelter in shade whenever possible! "Let's just rest here under the bright and searing sun!" Indeed, it might be better to travel at night, though desert nights can get pretty cold. Maybe around dawn and dusk when the temperature is in between the extremes and thus more comfortable. But we have to make allowances for this being a show, I suppose.

And furthermore, the Easterlings wandering around in metal helmets. If you have to hide your faces, try cloth masks instead. Also, I don't like the whole 'stick' approach. "If he doesn't come with us, we'll kill the hobbits." How about offering food, water, and shade instead? Yes, I'm big on offering the carrot first.

I wonder who the bell calls, or did call, once upon a time. Will someone come?
 

 You can’t blame the girls for ringing the bell, though.
 

 Yeah, this is dumb. The harfoots were tramping around in the waste. They should have better instincts, even if their pet is addled. And the Easties should be cooking in those masks. 

Edited August 30 by Affogato

[Affogato]

I think that is Gandalf, mostly because of the harfoots. I am hoping the evil one is a surprise wizard that just seems like Saruman. 
 

everyone wants to be seen as special. The Nazghul rings are how sauron gets his armies, hah, clever boy. 

[PurpleTentacle]

Like two minutes in and this is already rage inducing again. God damn it Galadriel, would you stop keeping vital information to yourself!? If your ring gives you a vision saying that Sauron has returned to Celebrimbor, tell somebody! If you see something say something!

I know she is a lot younger here, but it's hard to believe that this dumbass will become the wise Galadriel we know from Lord of the Rings.

[peridot]

Yep, I agree that Galadriel is stupid withholding information from the king.  Her vision even showed the count of rings and who they'll be allocated to.  I hate that she didn't tell everyone who Sauron was as soon as she discovered it.  Now Celebrimbor is up shit's creek.

I'm surprised the "wise" mentor is telling Elrond that humility is needed in his situation.  What?? Elrond seems to be the only sane one around.

I was not expecting for more Rome actors to appear!  It would be great if Antony showed up.

Would the dwarves really be bullying Durin like that? Even if he was on the outs with his father.

Sauron is so evil.  I can't imagine everything that he's capable of. 

I really hope Galadriel doesn't try anything now that Elrond's in charge of the mission, she admitted her judgment is compromised.

Edited August 31 by peridot

[Anduin]

42 minutes ago, peridot said:

Would the dwarves really be bullying Durin like that? Even if he was on the outs with his father.

I was hoping he'd bite off that guy's finger.

[Camera One]

This episode was alright, again about the same as the last episode.  Though it took me a day or two to be motivated to watch another episode.

Nice to see the Dwarves again... better than Adar and the orcs.  It was interesting to see Khazad-dum's marketplace. 

What was up with the map showing black strands flowing out of Mordor's volcano?  Is Sauron somehow causing the rock collapse and the inability of the rock singers to communicate with the mountain?  If so, how?  

Durin the Younger is getting bullied?  I don't seem to remember him being disrespected by his father's subjects last season.  So do the dwarves evacuate people before the rock singers begin their performance in case something collapses?

Random evil wizard and copper face mask villain guy are annoying.  Can we please end the endless journey to Rhun first?  I actually want to see what the Rhun settlements are actually like.  And I'm not talking about the caves where Enimem and moths undergo metamorphosis.

I'm also tired of the Elves being stupid.  I just don't find it enjoyable as the audience to see characters being duped left right and center.  It was of course predictable that the messenger sent by Gil-galad was killed, and there was no urgency to send more after Galadriel expressed what she saw in the vision.  And now apparently, she is confident about knowing Sauron's entire plan for the rings but she still wants to wear one?

Halbrand's "manipulation" of Celebrimbor made me think Celebrimbor was stupid rather than Sauron being particularly clever or strategic.  It doesn't help we didn't get to know Celebrimbor well enough in Season 1 to know what drives him (or make us care about him). 

I agree with Elrond but he's acting like a petulant kid.  He is furious with Galadriel but still seems to respect Cirdan and hanging out in his shipyard.  Cirdan looks better with a beard.

The scenes between Galadriel and Elrond didn't land because they didn't do a good job establishing them as close friends in Season 1.  Basically, the weaknesses of the first season directly impact this second one, but they haven't done anything to fix those weaknesses.

They are giving the impression that these 3 elven rings are sinister and having controlling influences on the three ringbearers already.  Cirdan, Galadriel and Gil-galad all had moments where they looked dazed or possessed.  Like when Cirdan put his hand into the water and the fish all gravitated towards the ring, he sort of looked evil.  Not sure if the showrunners are actually trying to make the audience think Cirdan is under Sauron's sway due to the ring and liable to turn to the dark side.  He's supposed to be a beloved book character but based only on this show, I don't like or respect him.

Edited September 1 by Camera One

[Affogato]

I think the rings take over mortals and that there is an aspect with the elven rings, as well.  Tbey are dangerous and seductive things. 

[dkb]

Galadriel just tell people what you saw in your vision. Your fuckup with Halbrand doesn't seem to have effected her standing that much with the King, atleast be honest now.

Anyways Team Elrond!

Poor Disa having to be the go between father and son.

Poppy and Nori better be alright.

[tkc]

10 hours ago, dkb said:

Poppy and Nori better be alright.

Hopefully Poppy and Nori don't encounter flying monkeys, but they may encounter the Wicked Wizard of the East!

[Grimnar]

This was kind of frustrating episode to watch.

Rhun storyline is moving very slowly. Another hint about Stranger with: He need gand(can we please start calling him in show Gandalf?). I hope that they will not make him one of the blue wizards and Ciaran Hinds the other and they will then return as Gandalf and Saruman(Hinds looks like Saruman).

Dwarves storyline was kind of nice that both Durins want to reconcile but are stubborn to be the first one to approach the other. Not fan of that eruption of Orodruin caused issues for Khazad-dum and that other dwarves are bulling younger Durin. And can't dwarves farm outside in the valley?

Elrond(with Disa) is only smart character left. Galadriel literally told Gil-Galad that Sauron wants to use rings to dominate each race but refuse the stop wearing her ring, even got spoilert alert about how many rings will receive humans and dwarves. Círdan is supposed to be wise but he s not working for me(annoyed with Rumil and Daeron were drunkard and insufferable) and Elrond is pissed that Galadriel is not listen to him but is totally ok with Círdan betrayel.

Sauron was supposed to be depicted as master manipulator in his scene with Celebrimbor but instead it came as Celebrimbor is master idiot. Sauron just told him, we made up with Galadriel but she banished me when she learned that he is maiar and Celebrimbor doesn't have any alarm about it. Maybe if we get some focus on Celebrimbor in first season it would came better.

And they should pay more attention to travel in the show. In Gil-Galad's council we have report that elven scouts saw Sauron travel to Mordor but somehow he still make it to Mordor and back to Eregion before any Gil-Galad messengars or before Elrond and Galadriel.

Edited September 2 by Grimnar

[tv-talk]

On 8/29/2024 at 8:18 PM, thuganomics85 said:

If the Stranger ends up being Gandalf, I can see him being Saruman. 

Is there any question the Stranger is Gandalf? I thought that was pretty clear by end of Season1? He even "created" the Hobbits when his dna mixed with Harfoot's.

The other Wizards is definitely Saruman, I dont see how they could make him anyone else. Saruman is even older than Gandalf and was more powerful up until Gandalf surpasses him as the White. Gotta be Saruman and I'm glad to see him in the show.

[Affogato]

4 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Is there any question the Stranger is Gandalf? I thought that was pretty clear by end of Season1? He even "created" the Hobbits when his dna mixed with Harfoot's.

The other Wizards is definitely Saruman, I dont see how they could make him anyone else. Saruman is even older than Gandalf and was more powerful up until Gandalf surpasses him as the White. Gotta be Saruman and I'm glad to see him in the show.

I think the question is that they were not (in book canon) on middle earth during this period. 

Edited September 2 by Affogato

[Haleth]

Yeah, the Rhûn wizard looked like Saruman but I don’t think he was even in ME yet?  It would be cool to finally meet a blue wizard, even if he’s a bad guy.

Loved Círdan name dropping Rumil and Daeron. Yes, Daeron was a major jerk!

Halbrand turning into Annatar was pretty cheesy. Telling Celebrimbor he’d be LotR made me roll my eyes.

Love, love Disa. She’d tell all the elves they were acting like fools. 

Edited September 3 by Haleth

[Anduin]

11 hours ago, Haleth said:

Yeah, the Rhûn wizard looked like Saruman but I don’t think he was even in ME yet?  It would be cool to finally meet a blue wizard, even if he’s a bad guy.

I don't think any of the Istari should be in ME yet. Whoever they are in ROP, they're way too early.

In other news, apparently Sauron has weather control powers. Would have been awfully handy during the Last Alliance or the War of the Ring. That's the problem with giving someone new powers, you have to account for them later on.

[QuantumMechanic]

21 minutes ago, Anduin said:

In other news, apparently Sauron has weather control powers. Would have been awfully handy during the Last Alliance or the War of the Ring. That's the problem with giving someone new powers, you have to account for them later on.

Well, in LotR Gandalf explicitly states that whether or not the storm on Caradhras was actually due to Sauron he did have the ability to cause it.

[tv-talk]

17 hours ago, Affogato said:

I think the question is that they were not (in book canon) on middle earth during this period.

Yeah I dont think book canon will hold that much sway over the show, The Stranger is Gandalf and they folded in him being the cause of Hobbits at all- at least that's how I took the scene where Noori's ear changed.

[Anduin]

7 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

Well, in LotR Gandalf explicitly states that whether or not the storm on Caradhras was actually due to Sauron he did have the ability to cause it.

Yeah, I completely forgot about that.

[baldryanr]

8 hours ago, Anduin said:

In other news, apparently Sauron has weather control powers. Would have been awfully handy during the Last Alliance or the War of the Ring. That's the problem with giving someone new powers, you have to account for them later on.

Can't speak to the Last Alliance, but War of the Ring Sauron wasn't at his full strength.  Maybe the weather altering powers can only be accessed when he has the Ring.

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

Can't speak to the Last Alliance, but War of the Ring Sauron wasn't at his full strength.  Maybe the weather altering powers can only be accessed when he has the Ring.

He didn't have the ring in Eregion. That's what I'm talking about. When he's visiting Celebrimbor, he does seem to control the weather.

[Affogato]

32 minutes ago, Anduin said:

He didn't have the ring in Eregion. That's what I'm talking about. When he's visiting Celebrimbor, he does seem to control the weather.

Galadriel and elrond have some control over weather with their rings. In their kingdoms in the tbird age. Several elves seem to have control over floods and so on. 

[Anduin]

11 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Galadriel and elrond have some control over weather with their rings. In their kingdoms in the tbird age. Several elves seem to have control over floods and so on. 

We've sorted it out. Sauron has weather control powers even without a magic ring.

[Affogato]

26 minutes ago, Anduin said:

We've sorted it out. Sauron has weather control powers even without a magic ring.

If nothing else he has that nuclear winter option

[judemorrigan]

I don't think the Rhun wizard being Saruman makes much sense. It'd be far too much corruption too quickly, imo.  I'm partial to the idea that he's not actual Istari at all but the mortal who becomes the Witch King.  As far as I know, the Witch King is only *possibly* of Numenor.

[Anduin]

2 hours ago, judemorrigan said:

I don't think the Rhun wizard being Saruman makes much sense. It'd be far too much corruption too quickly, imo.  I'm partial to the idea that he's not actual Istari at all but the mortal who becomes the Witch King.  As far as I know, the Witch King is only *possibly* of Numenor.

Maybe not even the Witch King, maybe Khamul the Easterling.

[Haleth]

That’s an interesting thought. It would tie this outlier story to the rings. 

[tennisgurl]

Is it alright if I just start calling The Stranger Gandalf at this point? If it walks like a Gandalf, talks like a Gandalf, has a staff like a Gandalf, its a Gandalf. 

A whole lot of great visuals in this one, the dwarf city falling apart, the wizards minion turning into moths, even Sauron manipulating Celebrimbor managed to look pretty cool. 

Celebrimbor totally buying Sauron's bullshit doesn't so much make him look like a master manipulator so much as it makes Celebrimbor look like an idiot. Isn't he thousands of years old and a great leader? He's that desperate for a pat on the back that he buys this? Of course, maybe none of that would be happening if Galadriel had just told people about her vision. I have a bad feeling that she'll go behind Elrond's back now that he's in charge and do what she's decided is the right thing, no matter what it means for everyone else. 

I wish that Disa could just take a tour all around Middle Earth to tell everyone how dumb they're being. It seems like Durin and his father want to reconnect but they're both digging their heels in the more time goes on. It feels really weird that Durin would be getting bullied by his own people, why does this show always have to portray the common folk as such assholes? 

I hope I wasn't the only person who saw the guys in the desert with their masks and thought "What are Sand People doing here?"

[astrohip]

On 9/2/2024 at 6:29 PM, tv-talk said:

Is there any question the Stranger is Gandalf? I thought that was pretty clear by end of Season1? He even "created" the Hobbits when his dna mixed with Harfoot's.

The other Wizards is definitely Saruman, I dont see how they could make him anyone else. Saruman is even older than Gandalf and was more powerful up until Gandalf surpasses him as the White. Gotta be Saruman and I'm glad to see him in the show.

While I'm on board with Stranger=Gandalf, I don't see Saruman at all. He wasn't evil early on, not until the Palantir took over his mind. Plus, they've made it clear he's a blue wizard if anything.

On 9/3/2024 at 12:11 PM, tv-talk said:

Yeah I dont think book canon will hold that much sway over the show, The Stranger is Gandalf and they folded in him being the cause of Hobbits at all- at least that's how I took the scene where Noori's ear changed.

I guess I completely missed this. What happened to Nori's ear, and how did Gandalf's DNA get mixed up with the Harfoots? I must be dense to have missed this...

[quarks]

1. This probably belongs more in the book thread, but in terms of whether or not Gandalf and the rest of the wizards could/should have been in Middle-Earth prior to the Third Age:

a. Tolkien notes several times that the records we have are incomplete, based either on the surviving copy of the Red Book of Westmarch (written by the hobbits and annotated in places by some Gondor historians) OR the records/memories of Eriol/Ælfwine, written down millennia later during the Anglo-Saxon period, OR various dreams about Númenor that some Oxford scholars had in the 20th century.  The records Bilbo and Eriol/Ælfwine translated regarding the First and Second Ages were the Elvish records, focusing on Elvish concerns/deeds, saying, as Tolkien said a couple of times in various places, "very little about men," and the Oxford scholar dreams were incomplete.

Which is to say, it's entirely possible that the various wizards did show up in the Second Age, but because the Elves just didn't notice (we can see in the show that the Elves definitely aren't aware of everything that's happening) and the wizards didn't show up in the Oxford dreams, nobody recorded it.

b. Tolkien did note, however, that the wizards (and Melian) showed up in Middle-Earth prior to the First Age - before any of the Elves even showed up in Valinor. So I think it's possible that they made multiple trips.

I also think the Stranger is Gandalf.

2. My sense is that Sauron isn't just manipulating Celebrimbor through speech, but also using just a leeetttlleee bit of mind control here. And it probably wasn't too difficult for Sauron to figure out that Celebrimbor is carrying quite a bit of resentment/rage/jealousy - even if I wish that had been clarified more/emphasized more in the first season.

3. I'm continuing to have a lot of questions about Gil-galad and his effectiveness as a king.

4. I somehow always felt that the dwarven cities would be more, I dunno, earthquake proof? Maybe just me?

5. But Durin and Disa continue to be one of the best parts of this. 

Along with Sauron. I probably shouldn't be cheering on Evil so hard, but when Evil is this hot, not to mention reasonable sounding - let's go make more rings, Sauron.

 

[Affogato]

9 minutes ago, quarks said:

 

3. I'm continuing to have a lot of questions about Gil-galad and his effectiveness as a king.

4. I somehow always felt that the dwarven cities would be more, I dunno, earthquake proof? Maybe just me?

 

 

Welp. There apparently was a reason his realm was the last that was fair and free, between the mountains and the sea. 
 

you would think they would have some more expertise. What with all the delving they do. 

[quarks]

19 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Welp. There apparently was a reason his realm was the last that was fair and free, between the mountains and the sea. 
 

you would think they would have some more expertise. What with all the delving they do. 

 

I'm honestly just trying to figure out, at this point, why people continue to follow Gil-galad. After all, under his leadership so far:

1. One of his major commanders blatantly disobeyed orders and then became friends with Elven Enemy Number One.

2. The special magical tree keeping the Elves alive started dying.

3. He was unable to do much of anything about this other than suggest that everyone just take off (leaving Middle-Earth, as multiple people noted, in danger) or leave things in Celebrimbor's hands, which --

4. Increased tensions between elves and dwarves and led to the loss of a beautiful table

5. The rings that had the power to save the tree and the Elves were stolen from right under his nose. He was unable to recover them; that was done by another elf.

6. A number of Elves had to make a long and ultimately unnecessary trip to Lindon because Gil-galad didn't trust his own Save The Elves Through Forges plan or his own ability to get Elrond to return the rings.

....I could go on.

And maybe the point here is to show that poor leadership is one of the major issues that the elves are facing, thus why Sauron is having no problems manipulating them. But that doesn't explain why so many elves continue to listen to him.

[Rushmoras]

I find funny these scenes where people are talking, and all they mostly do is stand rigidly like they have a stick up their butts, too funny. So, um, I guess, it does not take much to fool the Elves, eh? "Who are you?" "There are forces beyond evil Celebrimbor". "Oh, you must have been sent by Valar! Why, of course I will work with you, you shape shifter you!".

[Grimnar]

1 hour ago, Rushmoras said:

I find funny these scenes where people are talking, and all they mostly do is stand rigidly like they have a stick up their butts, too funny.

In one review it was mentioned by one of the journalist that people are not interacting very much with environment in built sets.

[katha]

Sauron/Annatar is really working for me tbh. I think a lot is that they really struck gold with Vickers who is playing the unplayabale to some degree and also smoothing over some blah aspects of the writing. But IMO they also have a decent grasp on the character, how the flexibility and manipulation makes him so dangerous.

Getting in with Celebrimbor is also tied to Galadriel not telling quickly enough that Halbrand is Sauron and I do think they did a decent set-up with him guilt tripping her in the season finale to make her hesitant to admit how badly she screwed up. Then Suaron is presumably killing the messengers they're sending from Lindon. And I think the scene of how he gets in is well done: Celebrimbor does most of the talking, Sauron just reacts to all his cues and figures out that he's isolated and doesn't have the newest updates. Celebrimbor does most of the work of convincing himself with a few well-placed nudges. A good scene on how Sauron operates, having the mark think it's all their idea and they have agency.

Edwards also does well to establish how vain and desperate for eternal glory Celebrimbor is. So he sees what he wants to see while Sauron plays into all his ambitions with the Annatar reveal.

It's cool that they have the Elves conflicted on the rings, because they are ultimately a way of suspending the natural order of things in order to stay in ME. However, messing so much with Galadriel in particular does write them into a corner. Yeah, Elrond may call her out, but she still gets a ring even after catastrophic failure because she has to get a ring for reasons. Gil-Galad comes across as a really wobbly leader because he can't get a grasp on her at all and also bungles Eregion/Celebrimbor. And I'm not sure that is intended, they just had cool ideas to change some things around without thinking through the consequences IMO and so they can't acknowlege them in-show and change things even more drastically.