S02.E06: Smallfolk

[paigow]

[Interior: Hightower Fortress Of Solitude]

Otto: [Reading message from Alicent] Dearest Father, Are you unwell? AArrgh!!!

[Another raven flies in, Otto grabs parchment]

Otto: [Reading message from Larys] Lord Hightower, Prince Aemond summons you to the Red Keep so you may serve as his Hand. Fuck yeah!

[jeansheridan]

12 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Nothing against Tyland; who, like most of the Green Council, seems like one of the more normal folks here; but the return of Lord Jason Lannister was everything because he just perfectly personifies that damn family.  Dude brought his own lions to the proceedings!  Who does that?!  Why, the Lannisters do!  Got the swagger of Jaime, the one-liners of Tyrion, the ego of Cersei, and the dismissive attitude of Tywin!  He is so extra.  I love it!

That actor is a joy in the role. Much needed comic relief. Freddie Fox also brings a bemused wryness to the show. 

Aemond may be overplaying his hand but he's smart about calling back Otto and leaning on the Hightower side of his family. 

Aegon is getting a redemption arc via physical suffering. But he IS still a rapist who betted on child fights.

Overall the pacing of this ep was really off. The riot felt like a rehash of the Season 2 riot on GOT but with lower stakes. Matt Smith scenes dragged. The flashbacks are annoying me now and I love Paddy but this felt like a waste. And Alys with her owl felt too Hogwarts. Much too cute. I did like the implication she sped up Grover Tully's death.

Jeyne is just the right level of polite bitchy. She is done with her houseguests.

Seasmoke picking its rider was beautiful but I wanted to see him get on. I also wanted more time with him so we could appreciate the moment. 

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say helluva job. He's doing what he can with what he has.

But:

1. The people of King's Landing are still starving and he has no immediate solution for the whisper campaign that the Greens are responsible or for Rhae's propaganda mission that Team Black has their back.

2. His proposed solution is to use the Stepstone pirates to try to block the brigade, which seems objectively a bad idea for the reasons his advisers spelled out. It's unclear why Vhaegar hasn't burninated the blockade except for plot reasons.

3. He is contemplating an alliance with the Greyjoys by marrying off his own mother to them, which a) would be terrible for his mother but more importantly b) seems like it is not going to be a good strategic move since their words are "We do not sow" and they are presumably at this time a group of traitorous bastards who do what they want just like in GOT.

4. While he sniffed out Larys for who he is, he went out of his way to humiliate him, making an enemy of him unnecessarily, and now Larys is going to worm his way into supporting Aegon and undermining Aemond wherever he can. I would not sleep on Larys' ability to screw things up for Aemond. 

5. Speaking of, while he may enjoy bullying Aegon, Aemond hasn't finished the job of killing him so he can become king undisputed rather than regent. Aemond can be Viserys II Electric Bugaloo and barely be coherent, drinking milk of the poppy like it's water. He's still king. And Larys has already struck up the "we disabled bros got to stick together" conversation.

 

I guess he could open the gates to alleviate some of the anger of the blockade, but there isn't much else he can do. His only real answer is breaking the blockade. To do this he needs to build his navy. While the solutions he's considering are bad for the long term, they're pretty much the only viable solutions to the current problem (assuming there's a storyline reason he can't dracarys those ships).

Politically, I agree. While I still don't see Larys as a particular threat, and he would've been an enemy regardless as soon as he made Otto's hand, it's not particularly wise for him to not keep his eye on Aegon for the time being.  Also, yes, he definitely needs to find a way to get rid of Aegon without getting his hands dirty if possible

[paigow]

Aemond at next council meeting....

[Jack Shaftoe]

I am curious if Mysaria's idiotic plan with the "gift" was in the book because it made no sense whatsoever. I know mobs aren't exactly rational but getting a bit of food from the very people who caused the famine in the first place shouldn't lead to people shouting Rhaenyra's name in the streets and rising up. It would have been perfectly natural for them to rise up without any such incentive.

Also, I call BS on Alicent being so protective of the mob that was in the process of trying to lynch her. You put your hand on a noble like that and you lose it, this was very much the accepted wisdom.

People being all surprised that the nobles are feasting in time of famine also made me roll my eyes. They should be resentful, of course, but not surprised, this was very much the way of the world - and still is, if I might add and pretty much everyone knows it.

Mysaria giving a speech on how she was raped and then kissing Rhaenyra was like a really, really bad hurt-comfort fanfiction.  Stuff like "You treat me like an equal" sounds silly when someone is talking to a queen in a pseudo-medieval setting.

The Lannister lord had all the tact and strategical mind of Cersei, why did he even bother marching out before sending his demand to Aemond anyway?

Considering that children tended to be raised more by nurses and tutors than by their parents, Alicent's latest "woe is me" musings felt a bit off but at least she shows introspection which is more than I can say about many characters (cough, Daemon, cough).

Really, someone whose grandmother's grandmother was a Targ was the best candidate they could find?

10 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

I know this is supposed to be a part of the narrative that The Man is holding her back, but I found myself irritated with Rhaenyra complaining that her own son doesn't believe in her simply because he made the common sense point that they need Daemon.

Agreed. And Rhaenyra keeps complaining how "she isn't allowed" to go and fight as if she isn't perfectly free to overrule her councilors if she wants to.

Edited July 22 by Jack Shaftoe

[Oscirus]

The dragon seed thing does make me wonder if the Baratheons from the Game of Thrones could've ridden dragons if they were available. 

So rhaenyra is gonna see Allyn and demand to know how he conquered the dragon and Allyn's gonna be all, I dunno, he just came to me and demanded that I be his rider 

[paigow]

8 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Really, someone whose grandmother's grandmother was a Targ was the best candidate they could find?

He was the only candidate on site... and willing to die

[jeansheridan]

9 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

Hats off to Aemond for leading Larys to thinking he’d be Hand only to pull the rug out and request Otto’s return. Nicely played.

No hats off. It was stupid to insult him so overtly. Better to have quietly recalled Otto and then dropped the hammer. And the Aemond we have seen thus far would have been smart enough to have done that. 

4 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

On the other hand, I wonder why the Blacks can't make the dragons fight riderless, like Dany did. Remember? She rode Drogon, but Rhaego and Viserion obeyed her orders too. 

I think it has been established that Dany's bond was unusual. To have three dragons at her command was unprecedented. And being fireproof too. 

Also it appears that while dragons may pick a new rider, humans get only one dragon ever.

[tennisgurl]

You have to love the Lannisters, rolling up with their own lions just for a flex. Aemond is making choices that make sense in the short term, but he is making a mess for a long term if he keeps pissing off all of his allies. He's good with a dragon but his people skills are awful, he doesn't care about anyone and what's worse is that he cant even pretend to. He isn't wrong to not trust Larys or to want Otto back as hand, but he shouldn't have deliberately pissed Larys off like that, having him working against you is the last thing a busy regent needs. He also needs to take the small folk into account, at least Aegon could put on a show of having their best interest at heart (which was at least partially genuine in his own weird way) but Aemond just ignores them. 

Rhaenyra starting her PR campaign against the Greens is a good idea, giving the smallfolk food and support is a great way to make herself look like their true monarch, especially when their thinking nostalgically about King Viserys. If she gets the common folk thinking of Rhenyra as his true heir and not the Greens, she has created a huge new problem for them right at their front door. 

Good to know that, even as their relationship isn't going great, Rhaenyra and Daemon still have a lot in common, like taste in women. Rhaenyra really needs to work on her communication with the people on her side, she's getting so sensitive about people taking her seriously as a ruler that she is getting paranoid. Jace was perfectly justified in asking about Daemon, he wasn't questioning her abilities. Of all people, Jace is one of the people who is always going to be on her side.  

Those baby dragons are adorable! I want to play with them! With a dragon flying around the Vale, Rhaena might be getting her time to shine. 

Poor Ser Steffon, he seemed like a decent guy so of course he was roasted. Seasmoke is looking for a new human with a bit more salt...

The hits keep coming for Alicent, she's caught in a riot, her own son kicks her off the council, and the one son who's apparently a winner is the one she didn't raise. Gwayne tried to be nice about it, but that has to hurt. 

The best thing about Daemon's trip is getting to see Paddy Considine as Viserys again.

[bluvelvet]

Speaking of mothering. The show once again shows the difference between Alicent and Rhaenyra, little Joffrey saying he misses his mom. 
 

One thing I do appreciate about this show is how they show the intelligence of the dragons. You can tell they aren’t just mindless beasts. You saw that with Seasmoke this episode, especially when he looked at Addam, I wonder if he senses that Addam is Laenor’s half brother. You could also see Addams face change when confronted by Seasmoke, first he was scared and then it looked like understanding. I would love to learn more about how the dragon-rider bond is formed. As I said before it’s more than just jumping on a dragons back. Rhaena was rejected by more than one dragon it seems but at least they didn’t burn her. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

Still over the Daemon-dreams-at-Harrenhaal story. Is there a BTS reason for all this? I wonder if Matt Smith had somewhat limited availability throughout S2 and thus his scenes had to be shot separately.

I've speculated about this before, but not having read the book, I'm guessing this is the part of the story where Daemon is just offscreen at Harrenhal gathering forces in the Riverlands. The show obviously doesn't want to bench the character for an entire season so they've concocted this filler story to keep him onscreen.

In any event, it's really boring.

Quote

While the solutions he's considering are bad for the long term, they're pretty much the only viable solutions to the current problem (assuming there's a storyline reason he can't dracarys those ships).

That seemed to be Aegon's plan for the blockade, so it's possible Aemond is resistant to the idea simply because it was Aegon's. Or, he's just cautious enough not to fly too close to Dragonstone where he might be outnumbered by other dragons. 

I'm really baffled by how Corlys's son would ever think to try to get on a dragon that had just chased him down and got in his face like that. It's not like the dragon can talk and say "Hey dude, wanna go for a ride?" I don't think it would occur to anyone other than a Targaryen to try to climb on board. And I doubt this guy knows how to speak High Valyrian either. 

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I have some questions about this. Presumably they're blockading at sea, which is to the east of KL...why can't they get food in from the Reach, over land? Rhaenyra has no ground army at all. 

Didn't they mention in this episode something about The Reach being at war? 🤔

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Also, I call BS on Alicent being so protective of the mob that was in the process of trying to lynch her. You put your hand on a noble like that and you lose it, this was very much the accepted wisdom.

She knew the mob was a powder keg ready to go off.  Sure, grabbing a noble (or throwing a fish at her) means losing a limb or your head according to the law, but when you and your guards are outnumbered 20 to 1 maybe that's not the best time to whip out the sword.  This is similar to what Tyrion was trying to tell Joffrey when he was hit with cow dung and ordered everyone killed - you don't escalate in that situation.

[Jack Shaftoe]

What was with those people who held spears (or prods or something) when Seasmoke was trying to decide whether to burn Ser Steffyn? You aren't going to scare a dragon away with a sharp stick, geniuses!

Also, that messenger in the end that knocked on the door and entered before being invited cracked me up. The whole thing was unintentionally funny.

I find it interesting how the show is framing Daemon trusting Alys as basically Daemon being reckless and rather dim as usual but Rhaenyra trusting Mysaria is not reckless at all but instead seems to be framed a touching story about helping the smallfolk (while her own fleet is starving them, no less!) and maybe even finding love along the way. I don't like Daemon at all, don't get me wrong but I still don't get how Rhaenyra has all but given up on him right now and yet blindly trusts Mysaria.

Quote

Sure, grabbing a noble (or throwing a fish at her) means losing a limb or your head according to the law, but when you and your guards are outnumbered 20 to 1 maybe that's not the best time to whip out the sword.  This is similar to what Tyrion was trying to tell Joffrey when he was hit with cow dung and ordered everyone killed - you don't escalate in that situation.

This particular mob was yelling "Long Live Queen Rhaenyra", it wasn't merely complaining about the lack of food and Alicent had no way of knowing they would conveniently stop attacking for no apparent reason and allow her to escape.

Edited July 22 by Jack Shaftoe

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

I'm a little confused by this. Viserys was extremely ill and was not very present for the boys. 

Viserys was well enough when the boys were small. He was watching when Cole made Aegon to beat Jace who was much younger and smaller, so it was very unfair. His comment was in style boys are boys, they fight with each other and then they make up. He must have been blind not to see that Cole's favoritism would cause trouble in the future and a fool not to understand how the feud between his wife and daughter would influnece on their sons.  

Even more serious was the scene after Aemon lost his eye. Viserys chose to side with Rhaenyra and her sons against Alicent and her sons, although both parties deserved to be punished, Luke for blinding Aemon and Aemond for insulting him and his brothers as bastards. 

There was no single scene where Viserys was alone with either of his sons. One can't make any conclusion that, how much he had longed for a son, he didn't care for them at all. 

The least he should have done was to get then an able and unpartial teacher who would have raised them insteas of him.    

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I still don't get how Rhaenyra has all but given up on him right now and yet blindly trusts Mysaria.

My thinking is that Mysaria submits to be Rhaenyra and Daemon doesn't. Daemon has never been great at being subordinate.

Daemon has hurt Rhaenyra's standing, and Mysaria hasn't. Mysaria gave the warning that saved Rhaenyra's life, and Daemon was absent out there doing whatever he wanted to do.

Mysaria's actions built trust, and Daemon's actions is tearing down the trust he already has.

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, DigitalCount said:

Dogwatch 2024 continues, lol. I now believe that the dog will survive, because it would be too cruel to keep showing him and then kill him off. Did we get a name for the dog?

I'm really hoping that dog winds up doing something consequential at some point. I mean, it's a story with human/dragon bonds at the center, and GOT had direwolves, so it would make sense and be a nice reflection that smallfolk and smallmammals get animal bonds too.

Regarding why the smallfolk would tilt towards Black because of the food despite them doing the blockade, makes sense to me, As someone said in this ep, it's the Greens who are supposed to be protecting and caring about them, and the Greens are the ones right there to yell at. They get that the nobles are at war with each other and that's why there's a blockade but without any love of the Greens to start with they'll lean towards the Blacks, especially since they remember the old king more fondly.

Quote

 

My thinking is that Mysaria submits to be Rhaenyra and Daemon doesn't. Daemon has never been great at being subordinate.

Daemon has hurt Rhaenyra's standing, and Mysaria hasn't. Mysaria gave the warning that saved Rhaenyra's life, and Daemon was absent out there doing whatever he wanted to do.

Mysaria's actions built trust, and Daemon's actions is tearing down the trust he already has.

 

Yeah, I took it that both women were getting something they were really longing for from the other. Rhaenyra had someone saying they thought she personally had what it took to be a good leader. Mysaria might not actually be the equal to any queen, but Rhaenyra did treat her like an intelligent person with worth, which would feel like being an equal.

[paigow]

Alicent is being set up for a reversal of fortune...

• Daddy got his job back
• She might have an epiphany about sharing food
• Gwayne might accidentally kill Criston

[Jack Shaftoe]

7 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Yeah, I took it that both women were getting something they were really longing for from the other. Rhaenyra had someone saying they thought she personally had what it took to be a good leader.

But why is Mysaria the only one saying that? Any person of Rhaenyra's standing should be surrounded by tons of wannabe ass-kissers and flatterers saying exactly what that person wants to hear. Instead of being surrounded by yes-men, she seems to have nothing but no-men in her entourage. It's freaking weird.

[paigow]

Team Black is counting on a Stockholm Syndrome variant occurring...

The Small Folk know they are being held hostage by Team Black - but have fallen in love [for now] with their captors.  

Edited July 22 by paigow

[proserpina65]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Even that was more than Viserys ever did. Boys were too old to obey their mother, especially as she couldn't say "or I tell you father".  

BTV, although Rhaenyra's sons held together, they weren't blameless but bullied Aemond. 

Oh, Viserys was definitely worse, but no, the boys weren't too young to obey their mother when the bullying started.  It had obviously been going on for years before the pig prank.

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

And damn the consequences?

Depends on what the consequences would logically be at this point.  Like I said, maybe a terrible plan, maybe not, but there aren't a lot of alternatives.

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

The smallfolk will starve again. This isn’t enough food to last forever.

Which ironically is Rhaenyra's fault.  I bet Otto would've found a good way to spin that.  This is one of those occasions where his absence is a huge problem for the Greens.

3 hours ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

The boys would have listened to their mother IMO if she hadn't spent all her time obsessing about how they were invincible because they (unlike Rhaenyra's brood) had the Targaryen look with the white blond hair.

She actually seemed to spend her time obsessing over the possibility that their lives would be in danger once their father died and Rhaenyra ascended the throne.  A very real possibility given that Daemon would've seriously considered eliminating any potential rivals, so I was willing to cut Alicent a break on that front.  (And Aemond at the very least DID listen to her about that.  There's something he said sotto voce immediately before the dinner from hell which shows he's taken her concerns to heart: "Even when the noose is so tight, they expect us to break bread".)

But Alicent doesn't seem to have made any effort to stop the bullying and even openly condones it (in her post-pig conversation with Aegon) as long as it isn't in front of outsiders.  And then to term it "the indignities of your youth" to Aemond's face, that just pissed me off.

Edited July 22 by proserpina65
I really need to read what I wrote before hitting save.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I am curious if Mysaria's idiotic plan with the "gift" was in the book because it made no sense whatsoever. I know mobs aren't exactly rational but getting a bit of food from the very people who caused the famine in the first place shouldn't lead to people shouting Rhaenyra's name in the streets and rising up. It would have been perfectly natural for them to rise up without any such incentive.

I suppose the writers share the aristocracy's view about the mob (the word is disdainful in itself vs. "the people") as easily manipulated and misled. They se only what's in front of them, they don't think the cause.

Wasn't the earlier tavern scene meant to show that there was a whispering campaign going? 

[Jack Shaftoe]

5 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Wasn't the earlier tavern scene meant to show that there was a whispering campaign going? 

Ah, yes, the tavern scene where these commoners were somehow surprised to learn that, gasp, nobles would dare feast in time of famine. I suspect we were supposed to think "That Mysaria is wicked smart" but all I could think of "Just how stupid do the writers think the average resident of King's Landing is?"

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I am curious if Mysaria's idiotic plan with the "gift" was in the book because it made no sense whatsoever. I know mobs aren't exactly rational but getting a bit of food from the very people who caused the famine in the first place shouldn't lead to people shouting Rhaenyra's name in the streets and rising up. It would have been perfectly natural for them to rise up without any such incentive.

I think you gave the answer. People aren't rational. People don't make sense 100% of the time. It happens in real life politics.

Do the smallfolk know that there ships out there in the middle of the Narrow Sea preventing goods from getting to King's Landing? If they know that, do they attribute that to the Blacks?

The question that's even more important is... what are the people in charge doing about it? What are people in the Red Keep doing to solve this problem? Why aren't they solving this problem? Why are we still starving while they get sheep to feed the dragons? Where are our sheep/chickens/goats that would feed us?

[Jack Shaftoe]

Again, people rising up would have made sense because they can't get to the ships that are causing the starvation but they can attack targets in the capital itself. But this could and should have happened without the gift ploy. How did those fishermen even bring all that food into the city? Last episode everyone who entered was questioned, was no one suspicious when they brought all that food? Or did the guards at the gate say "Fuck it, we are with Rhaenyra too"?

[proserpina65]

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I am curious if Mysaria's idiotic plan with the "gift" was in the book because it made no sense whatsoever. I know mobs aren't exactly rational but getting a bit of food from the very people who caused the famine in the first place shouldn't lead to people shouting Rhaenyra's name in the streets and rising up.

They don't appear to be blaming Team Black for the blockade at this point.  They seem to blame the Greens for not breaking it.  That's what the whispering campaign is playing on, the idea that the Crown could be doing something to help the smallfolk but aren't.  It's not true, but the mob doesn't know that.  They basically are believing what they want to believe.

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

People being all surprised that the nobles are feasting in time of famine also made me roll my eyes. They should be resentful, of course, but not surprised, this was very much the way of the world - and still is, if I might add and pretty much everyone knows it.

Except they're not actually feasting.  That's part of the misinformation campaign.  But I agree that the notion of it shouldn't be a surprise.

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Considering that children tended to be raised more by nurses and tutors than by their parents, Alicent's latest "woe is me" musings felt a bit off but at least she shows introspection which is more than I can say about many characters (cough, Daemon, cough).

Too bad she didn't have any of that introspection back when her sons were still children and it might've mattered.

2 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Really, someone whose grandmother's grandmother was a Targ was the best candidate they could find?

That was someone easily accessible to them at Dragonstone?  Probably was the best they could do at the moment.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

Aemond is making choices that make sense in the short term, but he is making a mess for a long term if he keeps pissing off all of his allies. He's good with a dragon but his people skills are awful, he doesn't care about anyone and what's worse is that he cant even pretend to. He isn't wrong to not trust Larys or to want Otto back as hand, but he shouldn't have deliberately pissed Larys off like that, having him working against you is the last thing a busy regent needs. He also needs to take the small folk into account, at least Aegon could put on a show of having their best interest at heart (which was at least partially genuine in his own weird way) but Aemond just ignores them. 

I think this is a pretty good analysis.  Aemond's smart and educated but his people skills are pretty much non-existent.  And he thinks too highly of his own abilities to accept that anyone else might have some wisdom to offer.

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

Didn't they mention in this episode something about The Reach being at war? 🤔

Yep, the Beesburys appear to have rebelled against their liege lords who support Aegon.  That could very well be interfering with any food shipments from there.  And the Reach is not exactly next door to Kings Landing.

27 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

But why is Mysaria the only one saying that? Any person of Rhaenyra's standing should be surrounded by tons of wannabe ass-kissers and flatterers saying exactly what that person wants to hear. Instead of being surrounded by yes-men, she seems to have nothing but no-men in her entourage. It's freaking weird.

Well she did isolate herself on an island for years before her father died, so a lot of the ass kissers didn't get the chance.  By the time the war started, it was too late to gather a lot of them at Dragonstone.  Again, a failure on Rhaenyra's part in terms of preparing herself to rule eventually.

 

[Roseanna]

46 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I find it interesting how the show is framing Daemon trusting Alys as basically Daemon being reckless and rather dim as usual but Rhaenyra trusting Mysaria is not reckless at all but instead seems to be framed a touching story about helping the smallfolk (while her own fleet is starving them, no less!) and maybe even finding love along the way. I don't like Daemon at all, don't get me wrong but I still don't get how Rhaenyra has all but given up on him right now and yet blindly trusts Mysaria.

 

33 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

My thinking is that Mysaria submits to be Rhaenyra and Daemon doesn't. Daemon has never been great at being subordinate.

Daemon has hurt Rhaenyra's standing, and Mysaria hasn't. Mysaria gave the warning that saved Rhaenyra's life, and Daemon was absent out there doing whatever he wanted to do.

Mysaria's actions built trust, and Daemon's actions is tearing down the trust he already has.

 

15 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

But why is Mysaria the only one saying that? Any person of Rhaenyra's standing should be surrounded by tons of wannabe ass-kissers and flatterers saying exactly what that person wants to hear. Instead of being surrounded by yes-men, she seems to have nothing but no-men in her entourage. It's freaking weird.

You are IMo on right track, Jack Shaftoe.

However good services Mysaria has made to Rhaenyra and how much admiration she shows to her, or rather just because of these things, Rhaenyra who has lived in the court should not trust her so easily.

Probably Mysaria is earnest - we have seen how her position was destroyed and she was sent away. But Rhaenyra does't know anything else what she has told herself and therefore she should be wary. It was just this way that anyone who she had just met would build trust in order to betray her later.

She should trust only persons who have served her loyally for a long time or family members with whom she hasn't conflicting intests and never ever speak of her doubts to anyone else.

 

[Jack Shaftoe]

10 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Except they're not actually feasting. 

I know the show is fantasy but come on. They are feasting. Maybe not as much as that ridiculously unsublte agent was claiming but they are feasting for sure. And Rhaenyra (or Mysaria if she is being honest with her endless protector of the downtrodden speechifying) doesn't seem to realise the irony that it's her fleet starving the city in the first place and her desire to get to throne that is causing the war.

It's how people in power usually behave. The problem when the story seems to blame them only whenever it's convenient for the plot, the rest of the time they are a beloved king (that clown Viserys) or champion of the downtrodden or committed pacifist or whatever.

4 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

She should trust only persons who have served her loyally for a long time or family members with whom she hasn't conflicting intests and never ever speak of her doubts to anyone else.

Yeah, but this would require her faction to have actual people in it rather than two-dimensional cartoons and clearly we can't have that, lest someone sides with them over Rhaenyra's endless bouts of doing nothing at all other than complaining about her advisors.

Edited July 22 by Jack Shaftoe

[Oscirus]

Half of the whispering campaign feels like its going too far, that lie about Aemond and parties is going too far. There is more than enough to whip up frenzy without using an easily disprovable lie. Hell even last night they questioned that aspect.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

But why is Mysaria the only one saying that? Any person of Rhaenyra's standing should be surrounded by tons of wannabe ass-kissers and flatterers saying exactly what that person wants to hear. Instead of being surrounded by yes-men, she seems to have nothing but no-men in her entourage. It's freaking weird.

It is weird, but the sitaution being what it is, they did set up that she was craving what this woman was giving her.

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

I think you gave the answer. People aren't rational. People don't make sense 100% of the time. It happens in real life politics.

I don't even know if it's all that irrational in this case. Leaving aside the obviously obvious actor in the tavern saying how they should really hate the Greens, it doesn't seem that weird that they aren't just furious at the Blacks. There's plenty of situations where people being blockaded would hate the enemy for doing it, but this blockade is happening because there's a war, and the war is about a fight between nobles for who gets the crown. It's not a foreign army, it's two people with legitimate claims to the throne. So the one who goes out of their way to say sorry for making you suffer for it is just as easy to support, especially when the ones who have power and claim to be taking care of everyone, clearly aren't.

Would they have rioted anyway? Probably, since it seemed like it was set up that it was a powder keg to begin with. But something was bound to set it off, and this happened to be it. The one big move of the Greens was to parade the dead dragon through the streets, showing they weren't gods--so the food for them now is probably also taking on a different meaning. (Honestly, I think that dragon stunt alone would believably cause a lot of resentment of the Greens.) I can see how it would boost Rhaenyra's image more towards "rightful monarch" and away from "whore usurper."

 

Edited July 22 by sistermagpie

[aghst]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

My thinking is that Mysaria submits to be Rhaenyra and Daemon doesn't. Daemon has never been great at being subordinate.

Daemon has hurt Rhaenyra's standing, and Mysaria hasn't. Mysaria gave the warning that saved Rhaenyra's life, and Daemon was absent out there doing whatever he wanted to do.

Mysaria's actions built trust, and Daemon's actions is tearing down the trust he already has.

Or it's a cheesy girl/girl plot, which has been done many times.  Wife and husband on the outs, he doesn't give her any emotional support, she's feeling lonely, and her confidant during this time happens to be an attractive woman.

They show vulnerability to each other and the next thing you know, they're all over each other.

In more modern tales, it's a couple of glasses of rosé which moves things along.

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

But why is Mysaria the only one saying that? Any person of Rhaenyra's standing should be surrounded by tons of wannabe ass-kissers and flatterers saying exactly what that person wants to hear. Instead of being surrounded by yes-men, she seems to have nothing but no-men in her entourage. It's freaking weird.

I think it's a given that a lot of the natural yes-men would first say yes to the side that looks to be winning ATM, i.e. the Greens. 

It makes sense to me that a lot of the people on the Blacks side do not so much respect Rhae in and of herself. They respect Viserys's wishes that she be named as heir, keeping their oath (such as the Starks), or what Rhae can give them (for example, the Arryns and the Freys).  Rhae has done little to nothing to cultivate her relationship with these people over the years. Mix in the rampant misogyny of the setting, and no wonder people think that they can run roughshod over her. 

Mysaria may be just telling Rhae what she wants to hear too. But she has been the first one to validate Rhae as a monarch not because she has something to gain from it, not because she "has" to, but because she has done an evaluation of Rhae's perceived strengths. Mysaria has helped her with two strategies, the last-ditch plea to Ali in an attempt to avert the war (which although it didn't ultimately succeed was well or luckily enough executed that she could make it to KL and back without being captured) and the Team-Black-Got-Your-Back Food Drive. And Mysaria helped save Rhae's life by telling the guards about the Kingsguard Twin who was posing as his brother. So it makes what Mysaria seem more trustworthy. Plus as people who slept with Daemon, they probably relate on another level. 

5 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Ah, yes, the tavern scene where these commoners were somehow surprised to learn that, gasp, nobles would dare feast in time of famine. I suspect we were supposed to think "That Mysaria is wicked smart" but all I could think of "Just how stupid do the writers think the average resident of King's Landing is?"

Probably pretty dumb. But again, this isn't a smarts/logic thing. It's an emotional thing coming from uneducated people who are starving. It's the way of the world that nobles are going to eat well even if the peasants starve. But that doesn't mean a) the peasants know that b) the peasants are going to like it when they are told that c) the peasants are going to work out that the reason they don't have food is Rhae, so her providing a tiny portion of the food that she's stopping from getting to them is not truly a kindness.

1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

What was with those people who held spears (or prods or something) when Seasmoke was trying to decide whether to burn Ser Steffyn? You aren't going to scare a dragon away with a sharp stick, geniuses!

Also, that messenger in the end that knocked on the door and entered before being invited cracked me up. The whole thing was unintentionally funny.

I find it interesting how the show is framing Daemon trusting Alys as basically Daemon being reckless and rather dim as usual but Rhaenyra trusting Mysaria is not reckless at all but instead seems to be framed a touching story about helping the smallfolk (while her own fleet is starving them, no less!) and maybe even finding love along the way. I don't like Daemon at all, don't get me wrong but I still don't get how Rhaenyra has all but given up on him right now and yet blindly trusts Mysaria.

This particular mob was yelling "Long Live Queen Rhaenyra", it wasn't merely complaining about the lack of food and Alicent had no way of knowing they would conveniently stop attacking for no apparent reason and allow her to escape.

I take it that the sticks are more or less security blankets for the dragon tamers.

From everything Rhae has been presented and most of what we have been shown, Rhae is right to distrust Daemon. She knows Daemon has for basically the entirety of his life been a reckless and impulsive douchebag whose first interest has been doing what is in Daemon's best interest. She presumably knows that Daemon killed his first wife, she knows that Daemon and she faked Laenor's death so they could be together, she knows that Daemon felt slighted because he felt he should have been king over Viserys and she knows that Daemon felt slighted because he felt that he should have been Viserys's heir prior to him having a surviving male child. She now has reason to believe that Daemon only married her in order to position himself for a kingship rather than out of any sort of love or admiration for her. She also knows that Daemon's impulsive action earned her the name "Rhaenyra the Cruel" and showed that he was not willing to consult with her on a huge move. She knows that she confronted Daemon about this and he basically flounced off. She knows he has been ghosting her since he took Harrenhal. Why on earth would she trust him at this point?

By contrast, Mysaria has shown herself to be capable and trustworthy in pretty much every action she's done thus far. Now all that might be setting her up for a future betrayal. But given the choice between someone who has been unstrustworthy for a lifetime who basically refused to acknowledge her as the true sovereign and someone who has shown in all words and deeds that she's supportive of her reign, I think it's an easy choice.

[Roseanna]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Rhaenyra really needs to work on her communication with the people on her side, she's getting so sensitive about people taking her seriously as a ruler that she is getting paranoid. Jace was perfectly justified in asking about Daemon, he wasn't questioning her abilities. Of all people, Jace is one of the people who is always going to be on her side. 

Kings/Queens and heirs often have problems, but Rhaenyra and Jace seem together along well. Yet, after Jace had stated his loyalty and admiration aloud, Rhaenyra suspected him prefer Daemon as a leader, instead of commenting, say: "It's time you must learn not to ponder in vain things that you wish were otherwise but use your energy to make a new and surprising plan." 

[proserpina65]

15 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I know the show is fantasy but come on. They are feasting. Maybe not as much as that ridiculously unsublte agent was claiming but they are feasting for sure.

No way are they having feasts right now; that implies an opulence and extravagance of which we've seen nothing since the blockade began.  Eating much, much better than those outside the Red Keep, sure, but they're not holding actual feasts, never mind having hookers sent up from Flea Bottom.  Maybe if Aegon were still in charge, but even that is an extreme stretch.  With Aemond in charge, no way.

6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It makes sense to me that a lot of the people on the Blacks side do not so much respect Rhae in and of herself. They respect Viserys's wishes that she be named as heir, keeping their oath (such as the Starks), or what Rhae can give them (for example, the Arryns and the Freys).  Rhae has done little to nothing to cultivate her relationship with these people over the years. Mix in the rampant misogyny of the setting, and no wonder people think that they can run roughshod over her. 

Exactly.  She's relied on people's oaths to her father more than 20 years ago and done nothing to maintain those connections, let alone build new ones.

 

[Lamima]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Alicent is being set up for a reversal of fortune...

• Daddy got his job back
• She might have an epiphany about sharing food
• Gwayne might accidentally kill Criston

Not so sure. Why hasn't she heard from Daddy?  Could Haelena's comment about her little pet no longer singing be another of her premonitions and grand papa is no longer singing?

[Roseanna]

12 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It makes sense to me that a lot of the people on the Blacks side do not so much respect Rhae in and of herself. They respect Viserys's wishes that she be named as heir, keeping their oath (such as the Starks), or what Rhae can give them (for example, the Arryns and the Freys).  Rhae has done little to nothing to cultivate her relationship with these people over the years. Mix in the rampant misogyny of the setting, and no wonder people think that they can run roughshod over her. 

That. Rhaenyra hasn't so far done anything to show that she is worthy of her position.

It's quite natural that the lords think of their own interests and don't want to be on a losing side.   

[proserpina65]

14 minutes ago, Lamima said:

Not so sure. Why hasn't she heard from Daddy?  Could Haelena's comment about her little pet no longer singing be another of her premonitions and grand papa is no longer singing?

I did not consider that possibility.  I don't know what I thought it might mean, but it wasn't that.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

They don't appear to be blaming Team Black for the blockade at this point.  They seem to blame the Greens for not breaking it.  That's what the whispering campaign is playing on, the idea that the Crown could be doing something to help the smallfolk but aren't.  It's not true, but the mob doesn't know that.  They basically are believing what they want to believe.

Right. The smallfolk are operating on incomplete information.

They are drawing conclusions based on the incomplete information that they have. The smallfolk don't care about macro-level circumstances. They only care about the micro-level scenario that they can see in front of their faces. They only care about the things that are most closest to home.

A blockade they can't see doesn't mean much when the King promised relief and hasn't delivered.

A blockade they can't see doesn't mean much when they see sheep being delivered to the Red Keep while they have nothing.

A blockade they can't see doesn't mean much when they're stretched for coin and they have to pay an inflated price for chickens.

Edited July 22 by AntFTW

[Is Everyone Gone]

I think a larger issue is that the Greens simply have not engendered any goodwill with their rule. They come across as cruel and out of touch. 

[tennisgurl]

My vote for the Iron Throne right now is that cute little dog we keep seeing around. He's loyal, he's a survivor, he's clearly a good boy, there has to be a reason we've seen so much of him! King Puppy, First of His Name! 

[Jack Shaftoe]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think it's a given that a lot of the natural yes-men would first say yes to the side that looks to be winning ATM, i.e. the Greens. 

Yeah but this war isn't coming out of nowhere and Rhaenyra isn't some nobody who is suddenly in the spotlight. She should have been surrounded by yes-men who have hitched their wagon to her for decades now. You don't grow up as heir of empire-sized kingdom without having to deal with a veritable army of hangers-on and wannabe hangers-on. Daemon should have his own hangers-on, their kids too, etc. but we see none of this and Rhaenyra is bizarrely trying to create her faction from scratch except for a few councilors whose greatest pleasure in life seems to be to gainsay her.

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Mix in the rampant misogyny of the setting, and no wonder people think that they can run roughshod over her. 

Yes, but on the other side, in a misogynistic setting people are going to think twice before being rude to the wife of a loose cannon like Daemon especially when that lunatic has an WMD at his disposal. Then again, the Lannister lord didn't think twice about being rude to Aemond, so maybe Westeros nobles are just dumb in general.

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

My vote for the Iron Throne right now is that cute little dog we keep seeing around. He's loyal, he's a survivor, he's clearly a good boy, there has to be a reason we've seen so much of him! King Puppy, First of His Name! 

I hate seeing that dog...because this is Westeros. I can't be having MORE bad things happen to this dog, but I'm very concerned that's what's coming. Don't you FUCKING dare show that dog, a hungry Hugh Hammer and then have him wiping his mouth, god dammit. 

[paigow]

18 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

My vote for the Iron Throne right now is that cute little dog we keep seeing around. He's loyal, he's a survivor, he's clearly a good boy, there has to be a reason we've seen so much of him! King Puppy, First of His Name! 

Notwithstanding  YouTube videos of dogs being friendly with tigers and other animals... Dragons are less accommodating.

[Is Everyone Gone]

I have a feeling we see the dog because all the humans of the show suck. Gotta have SOMEONE to root for.

[Jack Shaftoe]

I am rooting for the dragons... to abandon their riders.

You know, as a scientific experiments to see if this bunch of inbred fools would survive for longer than a month without their WMDs.

[proserpina65]

48 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

She should have been surrounded by yes-men who have hitched their wagon to her for decades now.

Again, Rhaenyra isolated herself at Dragonstone and made no effort to cultivate alliances, and in a patriarchal society like Westeros, this seriously hurt her.  A lot of those yes-men were going to hitch their wagons to the eldest son of the king because it was more likely that many, if not most, of the great houses were never going to support a woman on the throne, especially one who acted like she didn't want their help.  She needed to either stay in Kings Landing and surround herself with allies or reach out once she took up residence at Dragonstone and maintain ties with those from whom she wanted to support.  By not being proactive, she seriously hamstrung her team.

[MJ Frog]

7 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Mysaria giving a speech on how she was raped and then kissing Rhaenyra was like a really, really bad hurt-comfort fanfiction.

I felt really bad for Mysaria in that scene. Her body language made it seem that she was reluctant to accept the hug at first, and my read was that when things got all kissy she was on auto-pilot, settling into a role she knows well because that's what everyone seems to want from her. It just seemed really bad form to come on to her when had just finished telling a story about how she was used and abused for sex.

I can't remember whether things went this direction in the book or not, but could this not have been a story of a great alliance/friendship? Mysaria finally being valued for who she was, and Rhaenyra getting support and validation from another woman who knows what it's like to be pushed around by powerful men? The sexual/romantic angle feels a little forced.

Edited July 22 by MJ Frog
Clarity

[Roccos Brother]

I like the smallfolk finally playing a part in this conflict and also being able to see things from their perspective through the eyes of Hugh and his family. Olivia Cooke described it perfectly when she said the situation was very Marie Antoinette-esque. The chaotic rebellion was very satisfying to watch - perhaps because it mirrors and allows us to vicariously live out our "eat the rich" fantasies.

However, that make out scene felt like more typical HBO gratuitousness and it makes me cringe a little because as much as I like the white worm playing a role and repping for the small folk, I don't see her as someone who can be fully trusted.

Edited July 22 by Roccos Brother

[Jack Shaftoe]

7 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Again, Rhaenyra isolated herself at Dragonstone and made no effort to cultivate alliances, and in a patriarchal society like Westeros, this seriously hurt her. 

This should have deterred many a potential yes-man but not all of them. I am more than willing to criticize Rhaenyra for her splendid isolation, so to speak, (even if no one in show seems to regard it as the big mistake it most certainly was) but she should have had at least some tiny faction all along. Oaths are a serious business in Westeros and some hangers-on offer their services to the weaker side precisely because it's smaller and thus offers more promotion opportunities in case of success

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

This should have deterred many a potential yes-man but not all of them. I am more than willing to criticize Rhaenyra for her splendid isolation, so to speak, (even if no one in show seems to regard it as the big mistake it most certainly was) but she should have had at least some tiny faction all along. Oaths are a serious business in Westeros and some hangers-on offer their services to the weaker side precisely because it's smaller and thus offers more promotion opportunities in case of success

I guess what's missing, in a way, are that plenty of people would support her as an idea because they hoped to manipulate and control her, whether she was seeking support or isolating herself or not. Her mere existance is a potential road to power for somebody, if not her.