S11.E16: UK Elections

[peeayebee]

I found the main story very interesting. Some of it I knew, but it was nice to get the big summary.

Man, watching that disabled person make their way down the stairs -- nearly falling! -- was painful. Like John said, people who thru no fault of their own are suffering and struggling because the government ... well, just doesn't care.

Did anyone else notice that the suit and tie John was wearing matched what Sunak was wearing in the rain. I wonder if that was intentional, esp because of the ending. Sunak the Wet. Hee.

Is there any way that Britain can rejoin the EU?

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I'm sure there's a procedure to rejoin if they had a withdrawal procedure in place. I would think the UK would have to vote on it like they did with Brexit. 

tbh, I don't think, as a concept that national service in terms of local volunteering is that bad of an idea. My local professional society group does that. Of course, the execution would probably be a disaster because we can't ever just do anything. Similar ideas have been around. MLK day is typically a 'day of service'. 

Also of course, right on cue "we can't have government services because people choose to be poor". 

[IvySpice]

I'm a higher ed consultant. National service would do our young people a world of good. Young men, especially, are a total mess in the U.S. at 18. Stuff like the WPA did in the Depression would be a huge gift to them. I'm not even considering the value to the country of what they would build, which could be fantastic. So count me in on Sunak's side of this debate, as long as we're not primarily talking about military service.

[Annber03]

Yeah, I have no problem with young people being encouraged to do non-military things that could serve their country in some way, as it'd be very beneficial to all involved. 

But I would rather that message come from someone other than Sunak, partly 'cause of his political history in general and partly because his message on Tik Tok to try and "reach out" to young people, after the military service thing went over like a lead balloon, read very much like a desperate attempt at damage control. Yeah. Everyone is tired of all the constant wars everywhere. if these politicians want someone to go fight these wars, they can do it themselves. Leave the rest of us out of it. 

8 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Man, watching that disabled person make their way down the stairs -- nearly falling! -- was painful. Like John said, people who thru no fault of their own are suffering and struggling because the government ... well, just doesn't care.

Yeah, that was disturbing. As was the bit about the benefits only extending to two children per houehold. Imagine how pissed off families who have more than two kids have to be at all of that. That's insane. But indeed, further proof of how the party that claims to care about children...really doesn't. Just like our GOP here in the States. 

It was fascinating to see the rundown of all the chaos that the UK has gone through the past decade plus because of Tory rule. David Cameron feels like an etermity ago at this point. And I'd just about forgotten completely about Boris Johnson until this segment brought him up again. If only some of our politicians' terms over here in the States could be as brief as many of these leaders' terms were. 

Honestly, though, my main takeaway from this segment was, remember how, back in 2016, Brexit was generally seen as a sign of things to come for our election here in the States later that year? If the Tories are indeed on the path to a crushing defeat in their upcoming election, maybe that can be a sign for how our elections will turn out here later this year, in terms of how things will go for the conservatives up for election? Just a thought :p. 

As for the opening segment with the politicians having absolute meltdowns over Pride flags, to the point of wanting to have them burned, and Alito's wife going off on some weird rant about flags because OMG she has to see a Pride flag across the way from her home, the horror, and so on...I just...am baffled at how these people manage to go outside each day, if the mere presence of anything LGBTQ+ related sends them into this kind of apoplexy. Grow. The fuck. Up. You. Idiots. These are supposed adults reacting like this. It just absolutely boggles the mind. 

Also, yes, that "straight pride" (rolling my eyes) flag is absolutely stupid and boring. 

Edited June 25 by Annber03

[meowmommy]

2 hours ago, Annber03 said:

As for the opening segment with the politicians having absolute meltdowns over Pride flags, to the point of wanting to have them burned, and Alito's wife going off on some weird rant about flags because OMG she has to see a Pride flag across the way from her home,

After hearing that unhinged rant, I almost believe the Associate Justice when he says he had nothing to do with the flag kerfuffle.

Where's Dr. Sheldon Cooper when you need him?  Time for an episode of "Fun with Flags."

[iMonrey]

8 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Is there any way that Britain can rejoin the EU?

That's what I was wondering too. 

It's infuriating that Alito and Thomas can't be removed for their blatant corruption. (I know they can technically be impeached but the conservatives in congress will never let it happen.) They are shameless.

Mandatory posting of the Ten Commandments in every school room is just one inch closer to The Handmaids Tale. I'm so sick of hearing "our country was founded on {insert religious dogma here}" as justification for shoving their beliefs down everyone's throats.

[meowmommy]

24 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Mandatory posting of the Ten Commandments in every school room is just one inch closer to The Handmaids Tale. I'm so sick of hearing "our country was founded on {insert religious dogma here}" as justification for shoving their beliefs down everyone's throats.

We have some really horrible people here running in the primary to replace our retiring Congresscritter, and because this is a one party district, one of them will win.  Of the two lead contenders, one of them proudly proclaims his affinity for Christian principles in government, while posting ads and signs criticizing his opponent, who is Muslim, for apparently once saying America was founded on Islamic principles.  Not a bit of irony or self-awareness when they both want to eliminate the separation of church and state.  Please let someone's karma run over their dogma.

[Annber03]

1 hour ago, meowmommy said:

Not a bit of irony or self-awareness when they both want to eliminate the separation of church and state.  

To say nothing of how this is the same party that goes on and on about how they don't want their children indoctrinated...unless it's with certain religious beliefs, then I guess that's okay in their eyes. 

Quote

Please let someone's karma run over their dogma.

I love this :D. 

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

It's infuriating that Alito and Thomas can't be removed for their blatant corruption. (I know they can technically be impeached but the conservatives in congress will never let it happen.) They are shameless.

Seriously, I know procedures and all that, but sorry, when you're actively involved in an attempted insurrection to overthrow a democratic election or pulling hte kind of shady shit that Alito and Thomas have been, and when they've got the obvious conflict of interest with connections to said attempted insurrection, and all that, honestly, fuck procedure and just kick them out. There is no justifiable reason that any of the people involved in any of the above things should still be allowed to be holding any kind of office whatsoever. 

And that's what makes this whole Ten Commandments thing all the more maddening, 'cause yeah, in a normal world this would be struck down so fast it would make the lawmakers' heads spin. But we don't live in that world, we live in one where the Supreme Court has been so corrupted and bought out that they could actually defend this, despite the fact that it flies in the face of our actuall Constitution. It's infuriating and it absolutely needs to stop NOW.  

Quote

I'm so sick of hearing "our country was founded on {insert religious dogma here}" as justification for shoving their beliefs down everyone's throats.

Especially since that claim is not even remotely true in any way, shape, or form. But I guess when you're so busy obessing over the Second Amendment, it's easy to skilp the First Amendment and everything contained in that passage. 

[peeayebee]

13 hours ago, Annber03 said:

As for the opening segment with the politicians having absolute meltdowns over Pride flags, to the point of wanting to have them burned...

I live in Colorado, but I hadn't heard about the GOP here saying to burn Pride flags. A week or so ago I read a post on Nextdoor where someone's rainbow flag was taken from their yard. I guess the thief was just following orders.

 

11 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Mandatory posting of the Ten Commandments in every school room is just one inch closer to The Handmaids Tale. I'm so sick of hearing "our country was founded on {insert religious dogma here}" as justification for shoving their beliefs down everyone's throats.

Oh, the kids can just turn their heads away. 

Of course this case will go to the Supreme Court, as planned, and will likely be upheld. 

[Anela]

Okay, this is making me homesick.  That poll that included “t*at”. 😂 that wasn’t allowed by a content filter. 🙄

I know less about British politics, then American, because I’ve now spent most of my life here, but the tories are like the republicans, and I’m trying to avoid arguing with the one aunt that I have left over there. They use the same tactics to spread fear and anger, about immigrants, and social security, at the same time as they’re doing their damndest to destroy things like the NHS, and take away your social security.  I don’t know why they don’t realize that keeping their citizens healthy, would keep the country and BUSINESS healthy. 
 

You would think that Downing Street would have a better setup, than having the prime minister stand in the rain.  

Edited June 25 by Anela

[MicheleinPhilly]

I'm disappointed that there was no mention of the head of lettuce that outlasted Liz Truss. 

 

[arachne]

12 hours ago, meowmommy said:

Please let someone's karma run over their dogma.

I hope the dogma catches the karma! 😉

Found it interesting that in those pix of British party logos, the Tories were colored in blue, and Labour in red. Looks like the opposite of our Republican and Democrat colors, respectively. 

[Shrek]

54 minutes ago, Anela said:

Okay, this is making me homesick.  That poll that included “t*at”. 😂 that wasn’t allowed by a content filter. 🙄

I know less about British politics, then American, because I’ve now spent most of my life here, but the tories are like the republicans, and I’m trying to avoid arguing with the one aunt that I have left over there. They use the same tactics to spread fear and anger, about immigrants, and social security, at the same time as they’re doing their damndest to destroy things like the NHS, and take away your social security.  I don’t know why they don’t realize that keeping their citizens healthy, would keep the country and BUSINESS healthy. 
 

You would think that Downing Street would have a better setup, than having the prime minister stand in the rain.  

You are correct, you know less about British politics than American if you think the tories are like the republicans. They've done a shit job lately but you only have to see the mess the NHS is in in Wales to see how crap labour has done in control of it, they've just added more levels of management & don't give a flying fk about patient care.

[purist]

37 minutes ago, arachne said:

Found it interesting that in those pix of British party logos, the Tories were colored in blue, and Labour in red. Looks like the opposite of our Republican and Democrat colors, respectively.

In Australia, where I live, the Labor Party is red and the Liberal Party (the conservatives, confusingly) is blue, like in the UK. I've always wondered why the US Republican Party uses red rather than blue, when red is much more usually associated with left-wing ideologies. So I googled it, and found an article in The Verge that explains it. The reason is pretty ridiculous:

Quote

The color coding we're ['we' = USA] familiar with today didn't stick until the iconic (and extremely lengthy) election of 2000, when The New York Times and USA Today published their first full-color election maps. The Times spread used red for Republicans because "red begins with r, Republican begins with r," said the senior graphics editor Archie Tse, "it was a more natural association." The election, which didn't end until mid-December, firmly established Democrats as the blue party and Republicans as the red — denotations which will likely hold fast for some time to come.

 

[Anela]

32 minutes ago, Shrek said:

You are correct, you know less about British politics than American if you think the tories are like the republicans. They've done a shit job lately but you only have to see the mess the NHS is in in Wales to see how crap labour has done in control of it, they've just added more levels of management & don't give a flying fk about patient care.

And the tories have been trying to privatize it, correct? That's what I've been told. Friends told me the tories have virtually destroyed it, and they live and vote in the UK. 

I also forgot about both countries suddenly talking about instituting a national service. 

[DoctorAtomic]

14 hours ago, meowmommy said:

Please let someone's karma run over their dogma.

STOLEN. 

Someone needs to do a routine "We talking about flags? Not healthcare. Not gun control. We talking about flags." a la Allen Iverson. 

I'm going to hedge on any scotus ruling on the ten commandments. Sometimes, they thread the needle. Also, it's got to work it's way up to them. It's not automatic they take the case. Even then, 4 have to vote to take it up. 

I'm also hoping it's a slippery slope and a whole other bunch of nonsense gets posted in the schools to underscore how ridiculous this is. 

[Lugal]

12 hours ago, Annber03 said:

And that's what makes this whole Ten Commandments thing all the more maddening, 'cause yeah, in a normal world this would be struck down so fast it would make the lawmakers' heads spin. But we don't live in that world, we live in one where the Supreme Court has been so corrupted and bought out that they could actually defend this, despite the fact that it flies in the face of our actuall Constitution. It's infuriating and it absolutely needs to stop NOW.  

That's what I thought  In any other world it would be struck down for its blatant unconstitutionality, but now...

5 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm also hoping it's a slippery slope and a whole other bunch of nonsense gets posted in the schools to underscore how ridiculous this is. 

[Shrek]

57 minutes ago, Anela said:

And the tories have been trying to privatize it, correct? That's what I've been told. Friends told me the tories have virtually destroyed it, and they live and vote in the UK. 

 

Not heard that one so I called my father who in his younger days was a Labour councilor and remains a staunch Labour supporter no matter what & lives just outside London, I also asked my sister who lives in Scotland and my mother who lives in Wales so I would say that's a pretty broad spectrum. My mother doesn't pay much attention to politics so no go there, my sister said she hadn't heard that but Scotland has its own other issues with the Scottish nationalists quite strong & my father said that it wouldn't surprise him if that was the case but that it is one of the main Reform party aims rather than the tories that they tend to keep quiet about.

The NHS has always been an issue & each party will tell you that the other will destroy it or get rid of it, which at this point would be very hard for anyone to actually do & those that can afford it always have the option of going private & have for years. I had private health insurance as part of my pay package at my last UK job & that was 20 years ago, so it's not like it's a new thing. 

The problem with living in a different country is that people who are in the UK will only tell you what they want you to hear rather than a balanced view so do your own research rather than read a face book post by a family member.

[Anela]

35 minutes ago, Shrek said:

Not heard that one so I called my father who in his younger days was a Labour councilor and remains a staunch Labour supporter no matter what & lives just outside London, I also asked my sister who lives in Scotland and my mother who lives in Wales so I would say that's a pretty broad spectrum. My mother doesn't pay much attention to politics so no go there, my sister said she hadn't heard that but Scotland has its own other issues with the Scottish nationalists quite strong & my father said that it wouldn't surprise him if that was the case but that it is one of the main Reform party aims rather than the tories that they tend to keep quiet about.

The NHS has always been an issue & each party will tell you that the other will destroy it or get rid of it, which at this point would be very hard for anyone to actually do & those that can afford it always have the option of going private & have for years. I had private health insurance as part of my pay package at my last UK job & that was 20 years ago, so it's not like it's a new thing. 

The problem with living in a different country is that people who are in the UK will only tell you what they want you to hear rather than a balanced view so do your own research rather than read a face book post by a family member.

And going by my family, who post the same things as MAGA, who support Tory? Who repeat the same sort of fear-mongering, hateful crap that we hear over here? They aren’t telling me what I want to hear. 
 

https://imgur.com/a/AlS9Nov - just like the social media of conservatives over here.  

Edited June 25 by Anela

[Shrek]

16 minutes ago, Anela said:

And going by my family, who post the same things as MAGA, who support Tory? Who repeat the same sort of fear-mongering, hateful crap that we hear over here? They aren’t telling me what I want to hear. 

I didn't say they were telling you what you want to hear but what they want you to hear, same as mine I presume are telling me what they want me to hear. I was just replying to your NHS question that as far as I was aware & had been told. I have no doubt that the tory party are a lot closer to MAGA than is comfortable for anyone but I don't think they have any chance of winning the election this time around.

Again, I repeat, do your own research if you want to form your own opinion rather than asking family members who have their own opinion.

 

[mariah23]

2 hours ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

I'm disappointed that there was no mention of the head of lettuce that outlasted Liz Truss. 

 

Or technically, she managed to kill THE FREAKING QUEEN during her short tenure.

[Anela]

1 minute ago, Shrek said:

I didn't say they were telling you what you want to hear but what they want you to hear, same as mine I presume are telling me what they want me to hear. I was just replying to your NHS question that as far as I was aware & had been told. I have no doubt that the tory party are a lot closer to MAGA than is comfortable for anyone but I don't think they have any chance of winning the election this time around.

Again, I repeat, do your own research if you want to form your own opinion rather than asking family members who have their own opinion.

 

Okay. I have been looking things up.  I might have to move back, and I hate that it seems to be just as bad as over here.  Other than the family and friends that I love, the one thing I thought I’d have, was health care.  

[Shrek]

4 minutes ago, Anela said:

Okay. I have been looking things up.  I might have to move back, and I hate that it seems to be just as bad as over here.  Other than the family and friends that I love, the one thing I thought I’d have, was health care.  

You would, the NHS is not going anywhere as no party who would say it out loud would ever get voted in. 

[MicheleinPhilly]

28 minutes ago, Anela said:

Okay. I have been looking things up.  I might have to move back, and I hate that it seems to be just as bad as over here.  Other than the family and friends that I love, the one thing I thought I’d have, was health care.  

I strongly suggest subscribing to The Guardian's daily email blast. Yes, The Guardian has certain biases but I find them to be more objective than the other dailies.

Context: I keep up with the UK news for my job. 

[peeayebee]

 

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I'm going to hedge on any scotus ruling on the ten commandments. Sometimes, they thread the needle. Also, it's got to work it's way up to them. It's not automatic they take the case. Even then, 4 have to vote to take it up.  

 I'm not as hopeful as you. Yesterday I read this interesting and informative article pertaining to that Louisiana Ten Commandments law. 

Quote

In a laughably obvious attempt to mask its central focus — to force Christianity into the public schools — Louisiana’s law states that it “provide for the display of the Mayflower Compact, the Declaration of Independence, the Northwest Ordinance, and the Ten Commandments." Unsurprisingly, only the Ten Commandments are required to be displayed. The remainder are mere suggestions.

These aren't randomly chosen historical documents. Rather, they're included as a little history lesson about the treatment of religion at the time of the nation's founding. That's a transparent bid for the attention of some of the most conservative jurists -- most notably Justices Samuel Alito and Clarence Thomas -- who are in thrall to the idea that the nation should never advance past the late 1700s and should treat the Constitution as if it is entombed in amber.

 

Edited June 25 by peeayebee

[catsitter]

On 6/24/2024 at 5:03 PM, peeayebee said:

Is there any way that Britain can rejoin the EU?

 

Yes, it should be no different from any other European country applying to join, but there would be the whole question of whether the UK had to join the Euro currency system - the UK had an exemption from that before but it would have to be negotiated from scratch all over again. Also I can't see it happening without another referendum first.

[Ceindreadh]

A very good episode, which unfortunately could not be aired on Sky Comedy in the UK - which usually airs the eps on a Monday night.  There's rules about what can or cannot be broadcast during an election campaign and I think it was (albeit justifiably) one sided.

Luckily, the same rules don't apply to their catch up service, and it was freely available on Tuesday. 

[JustHereForFood]

I'm not as familiar with UK's politics as I am with US', probably because they don't have such strong influence over the rest of us. From what I understand (hopefully not too uninformed):

- The Tories can't be gone soon enough. Their mishandling of covid was well known and I remember the outrage when people learned about the secret parties - lots of them were sharing stories about how they managed to keep to the rules even if it was painful, like not being able to see a close relative in a hospital before they died - truly heartbreaking stuff. I don't think those people forgot. Also, to deflect from their incompetence, Tories seem to have chosen trans people as a scapegoat and are very vile towards them (I know, it's a shock that conservative politicians are against LGBTQ+ people, but they seem especially focused on them, which is sad considering how UK used to be seen as one of the best places for LGBTQ+ people - I think they even dropped in some list evaluating countries on this).

- I would personally choose Liberal Democrats based on policies, so even though I hate my own country's political scene, UK makes me appreciate our multiple-party system that doesn't disadvantage smaller parties. But Labour still looks like a much better solution at the moment, especially with Keir Starmer instead of the antisemitic far-left Jeremy Corbyn. I hope one day politicians who are seen as "boring" will be the norm again, instead of the crazies and populists that dominate so much of he political scene now.

- I am always cautious about celebrating too early.

 

On 6/24/2024 at 6:03 PM, peeayebee said:

Is there any way that Britain can rejoin the EU?

This was asked by people on another forum I visit and UK-based posters explained that this isn't anywhere in Labor's program, so probably no. LibDems and SNP are more pro-EU and Labor might need them to form a government, but it's probably not likely that this will be the topic of discussions.

This might be unpopular, but by now I'm in the "what is done is done" camp. I was very upset when Brexit vote happened, it was the first (though not the last) time I cried because of voting results. Mostly because I had this feeling of dread that this would be one of the moments that future historians will be pointing to as the steps when it all went wrong, like we do now with events from the 1920's and 1930's. Follow-up events just made me more certain of it.

But, they had plenty of time and opportunity to walk back, IMO, the negotiations were long, very detailed and often frustrating, so it would seem like a slap in the face to all of the EU officials who negotiated them. If they want to join again, there would probably have to be another vote and I don't know how likely it would be that they would vote to rejoin, especially with the conditions being more difficult now. Then, there are countries on the waiting list who want to join (in some cases like Ukraine, people literally died to have that right) and I would be very pissed if UK got any preferential treatment over them.

 

On 6/25/2024 at 5:19 PM, purist said:

In Australia, where I live, the Labor Party is red and the Liberal Party (the conservatives, confusingly) is blue, like in the UK. I've always wondered why the US Republican Party uses red rather than blue, when red is much more usually associated with left-wing ideologies. So I googled it, and found an article in The Verge that explains it. The reason is pretty ridiculous:

 

In my country, red was associated with the communists and is now used by the populist left anti-democratic party, with blue being associated for a long time with pro-democratic, pro-european/pro-western parties. So, it makes sense to me that Democrats are blue and Republicans are red, because in my case any left/right division doesn't matter to me much, only which party is more liberal and upholds democratic values and which is populist and authoritarian.

 

On 6/25/2024 at 7:56 PM, MicheleinPhilly said:

I strongly suggest subscribing to The Guardian's daily email blast. Yes, The Guardian has certain biases but I find them to be more objective than the other dailies.

Context: I keep up with the UK news for my job. 

The Guardian is biased and some of their opinion pieces can go to very far places, but I have to stick to them for more detailed UK news (and some other international news), because BBC publishes maybe like 20% of their number of articles (and I prefer reading news to watching it).

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I hope one day politicians who are seen as "boring" will be the norm again,

iirc, on this show, the last time the UK had elections, the knock on the Labour candidate was that he was boring. It's like you can't win for nothing. 

[Annber03]

Seriously, like I said with the episode before this, I would gladly go back to our politicians being boring. If they've got good policies and are just focusing on doing their jobs and that's it, and there's no crazy drama surrounding them, please, sign me up for that. I will vote for that in a heartbeat. 

[Anela]

I’ve just remembered this.  I guess I’ll find a way to watch what’s happening in the UK, on July 4th.  
 

 

[marina to]

I don't see any way that the EU lets Britain come back. They had made an exception for them with keeping their currency and that was basically spit back in their face. Why on earth would they let them come back when they've shown they will leave on a populist whim? There's no benefit to the EU for that. The precedent that it would set wouldn't sit well with other member countries.

What has happened was warned before the Brexit vote, the public chose to use it as a protest vote against the Conservatives (a lot of people gave interviews stating this the next few days). There was a huge jump the next day in Google searches about what Brexit was and it came out that the pro-Brexit forces had campaigned on lies. The vote was a bare majority so with the country so divided, doing something this drastic was just folly.

To be fair, so was the vote that brought Newfoundland into Canada and the one that kept Quebec in Canada, so I don't have a leg to stand on here. And as the latter has definite parallels with Brexit, what I can tell you is the prevailing thought that I've heard if Quebec leaves:  "Good luck going on without us. We're not going to make it easy for you." Which is why the Brexit deal sucks for Britain.

Our Conservatives also use blue and the Liberal party uses red. NDP orange. Don't even know what the Bloc Quebecois colour is.

Edited June 30 by marina to

[Lantern7]

It’s nice to see a country with more than two political parties have as much trouble as the US. Also, it’s a shame the show picks this time to go on hiatus. Maybe the three week break is so John can recover from sitting in the “rain.” Or maybe that’s how long it will take the studio to properly dry.

Man, Mrs. Alito must be a nightmare to deal with.

[andromeda331]

I don't know whether to be happy or depressed that UK is just as messed up as the US. On one hand yea it's not just us on the other hand it's not just us. I hope with UK getting voted out that it's hopeful for our own elections. God I hope so.

Okay, let's put up the Ten Commandments and next to it the Laws of Islam. No? Gee I wonder why. 

[JustHereForFood]

Well, at least one election in a middle of some terrible ones ended up well.

[Palimelon]

Quote

It’s nice to see a country with more than two political parties have as much trouble as the US

Yeah but it's usually still only the 2 main parties there. Having another party go in a coalition when there isn't a majority doesn't happen too often, though one could say the Liberal Democrats joining with the Conservatives in 2010 kickstarted the 14 years of Conservative rule.