S02.E02

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

I don't really think they have much choice.  Certainly Aemond hasn't told anyone it was an accident, so what could they say, really?  Their only real option is acting like it was, as Otto put it, the caprice of youth.  It's unlikely anyone is buying that anymore than they would "Oops, it was an accident".

Plus they can sell it more easily.  If you support the Greens then Lucerys was committing treason by asking Borros to side against Aegon, so killing him is an acceptable response.  That obviously doesn't apply to a little kid like Jaeherys.

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

The heads of some would definitely not support Rhaenyra if they believed she was responsible for murdering an innocent child.

Plus she can't say it wasn't me, Daemon did it even though I never would have approved.  Then she's a weak ruler who can't even keep her own husband in line, so why should anyone else consider her to take the throne?

[proserpina65]

Another item on the "I'm not sure the showrunner meant me to be thinking about this" list: did anyone else get fixated on the fact that most of the big Aegon/Otto confrontation took place in front of a depiction of a blowjob in one of the orgy tapestries which Alicent apparently did not have removed from Viserys' room?  Just me?  Okay, I'll see myself out.

[paigow]

Criston Cole as an incompetent, unelected government official is not something restricted to the imagination of G.R.R.M. 

[paigow]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

Plus she can't say it wasn't me...

Shaggy could make that work...

[AntFTW]

17 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Rhaenyra shows more concern for her cousin step daughters than Alicent does for her own children.

With regard to her sons... I understand.

I don't think Alicent is concerned but is genuinely scared of her boys.

Considering that Alicent had to cover up Aegon's abuses and rapes, it's difficult to show concern and emotion. She seems him in a completely different light.

Aemond is seemingly stone cold.. and when he was a child, she seemed caring and loving toward him especially because he was picked on (if my memory serves me correctly). He still turned out to be an emotionless a-hole.

[proserpina65]

18 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

He still turned out to be an emotionless a-hole.

Asshole, maybe, but as this episode showed, not entirely emotionless.  But obviously no one else gets to see anything from him.  He wears that seeming lack of emotion like a shield.

Edited Tuesday at 08:36 PM by proserpina65

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Asshole, maybe, but as this episode showed, not entirely emotionless.  But obviously no one else gets to see anything from him.

Yes, but I'm speaking from Alicent's perspective. Aemond presents as cold. He doesn't show any emotion to his mother.

Edited Tuesday at 08:37 PM by AntFTW

[AntFTW]

7 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

As much as I love Aemond and wish he was redeemable, I really don't think he is.  I suspect he will get much, much worse.

I don't think Aemond is redeemable either. Aemond is just as fucked up and volatile as Aegon but just in a different way.

They are always trying to make up for the past in some way. Aemond saw himself as the more inadequate brother since he was picked on and didn't have a dragon. Aemond is a handsome high-born prince of two powerful families that makes the scar and one-eye work for him, educated, well-trained in swordsmanship and combat, and has the biggest dragon in the world despite not being given one... and inside he's still that little boy that was picked on and still given a pig as a prank that one time. Aemond has overcome all the disadvantages or shortcomings he thought he had, and his brain won't let him see it.

Aegon felt like the more inadequate child since Viserys didn't name him, the first-born son, the Heir to the Throne. When he brought Jahaerys to the small council meeting, didn't he make a remark of something like "it's time Jahaerys learn to rule, my father never did that for me"?

These are gaping holes that they are just unable to fill.

Edited Wednesday at 01:02 AM by AntFTW

[CeeBeeGee]

8 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Aemond is a handsome high-born prince of two powerful families that makes the scar and one-eye work for him, educated, well-trained in swordsmanship and combat

Which has always seemed weird to me. Part of swordsmanship is judging distances, which is hard to do if you're missing an eye. 

[paigow]

7 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Which has always seemed weird to me. Part of swordsmanship is judging distances, which is hard to do if you're missing an eye. 

Dragon Piloting

[aghst]

On 6/24/2024 at 8:52 AM, proserpina65 said:

Okay, so I'm still trying to process THAT scene, although it was interesting to see Aemond be that vulnerable, not physically but emotionally.  Wish it hadn't been with the brothel madam, but obviously they didn't ask me.  I find it fascinating that he defaulted back to the dragonless boy who was bullied by his brother and nephews even though he started out all arrogance about his uncle.  Ewan Mitchell was brilliant there.

 

On 6/24/2024 at 10:51 AM, go4luca said:

I was just coming here to say the same thing.  I found it an interesting choice by the show runners to show Aemond that vulnerable.

Well when Alicent found Agon sobbing, I guess that's meant to be vulnerability as well?

Or when Agon and Helena exchanged those looks?

Agon was also forsaken by his father, so both of these sons are emotionally damaged.

But does that translate into any kind of restraint or will it make them more ruthless, maybe even psychopathic in their pursuit of total victory?

Are they vulnerable and open to seeking out other paths than nihilism?

Or are they so damaged that they're "Irredeemable" and require Raynera and Damon to raise their ruthlessness game or else be in danger of being vanquished?

 

[paigow]

Targaryens are why Hallmark introduced multiple choice birthday cards where more than one answer could be correct....

[Cool Breeze]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Aegon is Otto's grandson.

In that particular conversation, I thought Otto was referring the slain prince, who is his great-grandson.  (Which, weird, because Olivia Cooke is 31 years old.  I know they start young in Westeros, but a grandma at that age?  Whew.) 

Re:  the twins, I'm pretty sure the Green Twin killed the Black Twin and, recognizing the horror of that murder, and the assassination he was sent to carry out, literally fell on his sword begging for forgiveness.

[AntFTW]

5 hours ago, aghst said:

As for the kid, the loss of legacy and then the subsequent propaganda campaign seemed like a modern POV.  Did kings try to curry popular opinion?

Yes. Monarchs don't like to die or be dethroned and forced into exile. Monarchs need enough of the population to like them, otherwise they won't be monarchs for long.

Within the HotD universe, keeping the masses calm and on Aegon's side during wartime is a big part of the job. In addition to what @proserpina65 said, he's depending on these people's trades and labor for farming and making weapons.

I made a post upthread saying Aegon has will have two wars on his hands if the smallfolk aren't content. He'll be fighting Rhaenyra and fighting the people.

Having a public funeral for Jahaerys means even if the people didn't like Aegon all that much, they need to think Rhaenyra is worse... so that they be willing to keep farming and giving up a portion of their livestock to the King; and forging weapons and armor and be forgiving of late payments; and be willing to tolerate food shortages and paying three times as much for a chicken.

Mass murdering smallfolk and hanging them from the walls for all to see does not help that goal.

7 minutes ago, Cool Breeze said:

Re:  the twins, I'm pretty sure the Green Twin killed the Black Twin and, recognizing the horror of that murder, and the assassination he was sent to carry out, literally fell on his sword begging for forgiveness.

I think the same.

[baldryanr]

32 minutes ago, Cool Breeze said:

Re:  the twins, I'm pretty sure the Green Twin killed the Black Twin and, recognizing the horror of that murder, and the assassination he was sent to carry out, literally fell on his sword begging for forgiveness.

Ryan Condal says otherwise.

[Cool Breeze]

11 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Ryan Condal says otherwise.

I have to say, that's less interesting than my interpretation.  A noble knight of the Kingsguard, having broken with the more established line of the royal family, accepts an assignment to assassinate the "heir" he's protected for years, killing his own twin brother ("one soul") in the process, can't accept the magnitude of his wholesale betrayal of oath and family, and kills himself in disgrace.

That feels more poignant than The Black Twin killing himself for . . . reasons?

[AntFTW]

27 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Ryan Condal says otherwise.

They need to reedit because it doesn't look like it.

On the 'Inside the Episode', they say both twins end up with the same injuries so you won't be able to tell by who has what injuries, but IMO they don't actually show enough for the audience to determine that they got the same injuries.

Edited Tuesday at 11:19 PM by AntFTW

[magdalene]

4 minutes ago, Cool Breeze said:

I have to say, that's less interesting than my interpretation.  A noble knight of the Kingsguard, having broken with the more established line of the royal family, accepts an assignment to assassinate the "heir" he's protected for years, killing his own twin brother ("one soul") in the process, can't accept the magnitude of his wholesale betrayal of oath and family, and kills himself in disgrace.

That feels more poignant than The Black Twin killing himself for . . . reasons?

He killed himself because killing his own twin broke him and because how would anybody in the aftermath ever trust him? They were identical after all.

Those seem pretty poignant reasons to me.

For those who don't care so much what Crispy did to the Cargyll twins because hey they weren't main characters - wait until he does it to a character you love.

[aghst]

I've read about certain aspects of the first two episodes which are different than in the books.

So for all we know, this twins battle didn't come from the books either.

[Stardancer Supreme]

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I had thought the White Worm had figured out that it was Green Twin and was going to endear herself to Rhae by warning her and become Rhae's master of whispers, knowing that unlike Otto or Daemon, Rhae might value her in her own right. 

It's only through the basest contrivance that Green Twin comes close to his assassination plot. 

I almost think that Crispy knew that it was doomed to fail, and just wanted to bully someone and distract from his actual guilt. I wonder how long it may take for Aegon to learn either that Crispy is playing hide-the-dragon with Alicent, or the more specific information that Crispy was doing her while the assassins killed his son.

Mysaria knew it was the Green twin because she just left the Black Twin in the castle. Unlike most folks, she pays attention. She went back to the castle to let Black Twin know his brother was there.

I. Can't. Wait. Until Aegon learns that his new Hand is boffing his mother and WHEN he was doing that... If he doesn't proceed to cut Crispy's head off or burn him alive via Sunfyre, I will be severely disappointed.

[AAEBoiler]

I think this Brother vs. Brother scene ended up on the cutting room floor.

[Affogato]

3 hours ago, aghst said:

 

Well when Alicent found Agon sobbing, I guess that's meant to be vulnerability as well?

Or when Agon and Helena exchanged those looks?

Agon was also forsaken by his father, so both of these sons are emotionally damaged.

But does that translate into any kind of restraint or will it make them more ruthless, maybe even psychopathic in their pursuit of total victory?

Are they vulnerable and open to seeking out other paths than nihilism?

Or are they so damaged that they're "Irredeemable" and require Raynera and Damon to raise their ruthlessness game or else be in danger of being vanquished?

 

 

Aemond was getting attention from someone by playing the poor me card. the show showed this to us to emphasize that he is doing this for attention. 
 

Aegon was alone. He was probably feeling bad about himself but he was not actually using it to get attention because he was alone. I think we may find he has sex with his sister wife while drunk because he feels bad about it and has to anyway. 
 

this illustrates why I think Aemond is a narcissist and Aegon is not a narcissist. People go through the same abuse and come out differently. 

[proserpina65]

3 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Which has always seemed weird to me. Part of swordsmanship is judging distances, which is hard to do if you're missing an eye. 

He's had to work harder because of it, which makes his skill all the more impressive.

7 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Aemond was getting attention from someone by playing the poor me card. the show showed this to us to emphasize that he is doing this for attention. 

I don't agree with this interpretation of the scene at all.  He meant what he said or at least believed that he meant it.  It wasn't about using the sympathy card for attention or he'd have done it with his mother too.  That is not the intent of that scene. - it was about him showing vulnerability.

4 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Yes, but I'm speaking from Alicent's perspective. Aemond presents as cold. He doesn't show any emotion to his mother.

Okay, that makes sense.

3 hours ago, aghst said:

Agon was also forsaken by his father, so both of these sons are emotionally damaged.

But does that translate into any kind of restraint or will it make them more ruthless, maybe even psychopathic in their pursuit of total victory?

Are they vulnerable and open to seeking out other paths than nihilism?

Or are they so damaged that they're "Irredeemable" and require Raynera and Damon to raise their ruthlessness game or else be in danger of being vanquished?

I think that remains to be seen.  I'd like to believe they both can overcome their damage and not completely lose control of what little restraint either has, but I'm not hopeful.  Some people can't get past the damage.

 

[magdalene]

55 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Aemond was getting attention from someone by playing the poor me card. the show showed this to us to emphasize that he is doing this for attention. 

I couldn't disagree more. Aemond was a damaged, bullied little boy who is now an arrested development young man who has to go to an older woman to get a feeling of safety and nurture. The glass of milk. He wants to be back in or close to the womb. He is also an excellent sword fighter who rides the biggest dragon and idolizes his uncle Daemon - a very dubious role model.

Both Aemond and Aegon are the products of neglect and witheld affection.

All of these people are going to escalate their worst traits, follow the worst advice.

There are going to be very few happy endings in this series.

[Affogato]

26 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I don't agree with this interpretation of the scene at all.  He meant what he said or at least believed that he meant it.  It wasn't about using the sympathy card for attention or he'd have done it with his mother too.  That is not the intent of that scene. - it was about him showing vulnerability.

 

He meant what he said. Narcissists are dangerous because yhey are always sincere, always righteous. If they say it, it is true. I would not argue with that. And they do have fragile egos that need constant support. He isn’t vulnerable. He does this all the time. That is what he pays her for. 

[magdalene]

3 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Narcissists are dangerous because yhey are always sincere, always righteous. If they say it, it is true. I would not argue with that. And they do have fragile ego

The word "narcissist" gets thrown around way too freely these days.   Joffrey from GOT was a narcissist in some ways.

I don't think any main character on HOTD fits that term.

 

[Affogato]

1 minute ago, magdalene said:

I couldn't disagree more. Aemond was a damaged, bullied little boy who is now an arrested development young man who has to go to an older woman to get a feeling of safety and nurture. The glass of milk. He wants to be back in or close to the womb. He is also an excellent sword fighter who rides the biggest dragon and idolizes his uncle Daemon - a very dubious role model.

Both Aemond and Aegon are the products of neglect and witheld affection.

All of these people are going to escalate their worst traits, follow the worst advice.

There are going to be very few happy endings in this series.

You assume said something different. Thing is people do go through the same experiences and come out different. 
 

in this story Viserys was an empathic, not perfect individual. Daemon is a sociopath. Both Viserys and Daemon had a hard childhood. Both made a lot of mistakes. 
 

Aemond and Aegon are repeating the pattern. 
 

narcissists can bevcharming but they aren’t curable. 
 

anyway, I will stop now. This just isn’t a happy story. 

1 minute ago, magdalene said:

The word "narcissist" gets thrown around way too freely these days.   Joffrey from GOT was a narcissist in some ways.

I don't think any main character on HOTD fits that term.

 

I’m not throwing it around freely or painting someone totally black because they show one trait or another. These are characters. They are drawn that way for a reason. The comparison makes their differences obvious. Walks like a duck and sll that. Anyway, good night. 

[DrSparkles]

On 6/25/2024 at 12:32 AM, paigow said:

When Fuckboy bitched at Otto about not addressing the King respectfully, Otto said the King is my grandson ...  so maybe grandson does apply to any relation 2+ generations down...

Thanks All! I wasn't necessarily trying to point out an error, just trying to get things straight in my brain. I don't follow as closely as some people do, so I could've been way off in my trying to figure out generations 🤣

[gail56]

I have always disliked Otto and his machinations, but he was such a bad ass in this episode! I loved the way he dressed down Aegon and tried to talk sense to him. Then when Aegon removed him as Hand and he got this "We are so screwed" look on his face!

Can someone just kill Criston Cole already??!!

Also Aemond didn't look too thin to me.

[proserpina65]

13 hours ago, Affogato said:

He meant what he said. Narcissists are dangerous because yhey are always sincere, always righteous. If they say it, it is true. I would not argue with that. And they do have fragile egos that need constant support. He isn’t vulnerable. He does this all the time. That is what he pays her for. 

Meaning what he said does not necessarily make him a narcissist.  Maybe he is, maybe he isn't but this scene doesn't prove anything.  He was a bullied child who's become a damaged young man seeking out some semblance of affection which he apparently hasn't been able to get from his family.  If he were just after attention or a prop to his ego, he'd be seeking that among the others with whom he associates on a regular basis and we've seen little evidence of that.

We clearly aren't going to be on the same page about this scene, however, so I'll just say we should agree to disagree and leave it there.

Edited Wednesday at 02:54 PM by proserpina65

[ChicksDigScars]

2 hours ago, gail56 said:

I have always disliked Otto and his machinations, but he was such a bad ass in this episode! I loved the way he dressed down Aegon and tried to talk sense to him. Then when Aegon removed him as Hand and he got this "We are so screwed" look on his face!

Can someone just kill Criston Cole already??!!

Also Aemond didn't look too thin to me.

Same, on all but the Aemond thinness. I audibly gasped when the camera went to the long shot.  

And Otto was THE MAN in this episode. Well, except for the "let's use a baby's death to our political advantage" part. The ACTING was perfection. Dressing down Aegon was spot on. Otto himself? Still a POS. But he has moved down one position in the HoD characters whose satisfyingly gruesome death I need to witness. He's now #2. Crispy is in top position now. 

Edited Wednesday at 04:57 PM by ChicksDigScars

[proserpina65]

59 minutes ago, gail56 said:

Also Aemond didn't look too thin to me.

The lighting made it a little hard to tell, but when he switched positions, it was fairly clearly that his arms and torso aren't particularly thin.  His legs, well, I'll confess to wishing they were more like soccer players' legs, but that's just my preference.  (Helps that I've seen the actor shirtless/naked in other roles.)

Edited Wednesday at 03:13 PM by proserpina65

[iMonrey]

16 hours ago, AntFTW said:

On the 'Inside the Episode', they say both twins end up with the same injuries so you won't be able to tell by who has what injuries, but IMO they don't actually show enough for the audience to determine that they got the same injuries.

I thought it was fairly obvious when he called Rhaenyra "Your Grace" it was Erryk. Arryk was sent there to kill her, he wouldn't have called her that. You have to jump through a lot of mental hoops to get to a place where killing his own brother would suddenly cause him to declare fealty to her. 

Granted, the whole twin fight sequence was meant to be confusing and relied on a monumental set of coincidences, but saying "Your Grace" at the end was meant to be the tell.

1 hour ago, gail56 said:

Also Aemond didn't look too thin to me.

I could see his rib cage through his back. "Too" thin is perhaps subjective, but he's definitely skinny.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

Meaning what he said does not necessarily make him a narcissist.  Maybe he is, maybe he isn't

Who ya gonna call?

[proserpina65]

Just now, paigow said:

Who ya gonna call?

Or possibly:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/lorraine-bracco-born-october-2-1954-as-dr-jennifer-melfi-on-the-sopranos--826621706586252832/

 

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I thought it was fairly obvious when he called Rhaenyra "Your Grace" it was Erryk. Arryk was sent there to kill her, he wouldn't have called her that. You have to jump through a lot of mental hoops to get to a place where killing his own brother would suddenly cause him to declare fealty to her. 

I don't disagree with you.

As I'm watching, I'm trying to keep track of which twin is which. The only way I could really do that is by looking at how they were injured.

In the 'Inside the Episode', their goal was for us to be confused and not know which one is the Black Twin or the Green Twin. They say the twins received the same injuries. IMO, it doesn't show us enough on-camera to say they got the same injuries unless I missed something (which is entirely possible). If I'm just going by injuries that I saw on-camera, then I would think Erryk dies first. However, it doesn't make sense to me that Arryk would say "your grace. Forgive me."

Edited Wednesday at 05:05 PM by AntFTW

[Cool Breeze]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I thought it was fairly obvious when he called Rhaenyra "Your Grace" it was Erryk. Arryk was sent there to kill her, he wouldn't have called her that. You have to jump through a lot of mental hoops to get to a place where killing his own brother would suddenly cause him to declare fealty to her. 

Granted, the whole twin fight sequence was meant to be confusing and relied on a monumental set of coincidences, but saying "Your Grace" at the end was meant to be the tell.

I realize I interpreted the scene incorrectly but no mental hoops needed to be surmounted.  Not sure the word "suddenly" applies to his declaration of fealty.  Rhaenyra was the (presumed and actual) heir for quite some time during his entire tenure as a member of The Kingsguard, until only the last two (?) weeks or so when he jumped to Team Green.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Cool Breeze said:

I realize I interpreted the scene incorrectly but no mental hoops needed to be surmounted.  Not sure the word "suddenly" applies to his declaration of fealty.  Rhaenyra was the (presumed and actual) heir for quite some time during his entire tenure as a member of The Kingsguard, until only the last two (?) weeks or so when he jumped to Team Green.

I'm presuming he chose to believe the story that Viserys changed his mind and wanted Aegon as his successor, which means he believed Aegon to be the rightful king.  So while it might not be sudden for him to call Rhaenyra "your grace", it would still be unexpected of someone who'd been supporting Aegon's right to the throne.  I automatically assumed it was the Rhaenyra-supporting twin who won the fight, not the Aegon-supporting one for pretty much this reason.  Although honestly, I couldn't have told you which one was Arryk and which one was Erryk without having a recap in front of me.  I never figured out which twin had which name.

[Lady S.]

On 6/25/2024 at 5:39 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Having Green Twin pretend to be Black Twin and carry out his assassination mission -- not a great plan (tm Tony Stark).

Just think how the whole harebrained scheme would have fallen apart if Black Erryk had gotten a haircut or shaved his beard after joining Rhaenyra. And even if Green Twin somehow succeeded in queenslaying, he wouldn't make it out alive anymore than Blood the babykiller did, so a death sentence either way to throw away a valuable Kingsguard. And even more of a pointless waste considering that killing Nyra would not actually prevent war. Certainly not when Daemon is still alive, and Jace is old enough to take over as heir and want his own vengeful war after losing his brother and his mother.

On 6/25/2024 at 12:45 PM, proserpina65 said:

They implied that he only comes to her for sex sometimes when he's drunk.  We just took it from there based on his propensity for raping maids.  Maybe that's not the case with Helaena but only she can say for sure.

it would be marital rape in modern terms, which is why I think the equivalent is not Aegon/Dyanna but Viserys/Alicent. Aegon may not feel the need for violence with his wife if she's dutifully lying there dead-eyed just like mummy did before her. Difference is neither one of them wanted this marriage, so Aegon prefers to sate his lusts with sex workers and servants, probably only coming to his wife when the drink makes him very lonely and/or horny and he hasn't found anyone else. They did their conjugal duty by producing the twins, two kids for the price of one, but without Otto around to order Aegon to sire a new male heir I don't think he'll be in any hurry to get Helaena pregnant again. We know he prefers to ignore her for the most part and it seems this shared grief is only making them more awkward, as she'll forever be a reminder of that loss.

Gotta say surprised by all the sympathy/respect for Otto who only reaped the consequences of his own actrions. Not only did he start all this by scheming for 20 years to get his grandson on the throne, but whose fault is it that the king is so uneducated? Aegon was never official heir but they had years with Viserys bedridden and Rhaenyra away from court to better prepare, he could've attended small council meetings during that time or been privately mentored by Otto. Instead it seems his and Ali's only idea of preparing Aegon was training him to see Rhaenyra and her sons as enemies. And why didn't Otto work harder to groom him for good kingship? Because all he wanted was another weak king like Viserys. But even if Aegon had kept that benevolent kind of weakness like in ep 2.01, that would still be a problem since unlike Viserys, Otto is unlikely to outlive his grandson. What was Aegon meant to do if/when Otto died? He'd have to learn how to think for himself (even just as much as to how to pick a worthy replacement for Otto as Hand) without mummy and grandpa at some point. Not only is Otto acting like he's immortal, he's ignoring that his deal with Vizzy worked as well as it did only because they had some basis in friendship. There's no such warmth in his relationship with Aegon, whose only real scene with grandpa in s1 was Otto kicking him awake and manhandling him when he passed out drunk at Laena's funeral. Just expecting total obedience from his family as extensions of himself, so then he acts shocked when telling the king his daddy never loved him gets him fired. Truly a mediocre ruler who only looks good because he's surrounded by greater idiocy on both his own side and the enemies'.

I can't even give him credit for the funeral PR stunt since a)that could've gone horribly wrong if the body had fallen off when the wagon wheel was stuck and then the stitched-on head would come apart and b)there's no reason they couldn't have grieved both publicly and privately. Instead he tells Alicent not to get too upset over a dead grandbaby and traumatized Helaena, as in save your tears for the public because it makes me uncomfortable. Then at least he awkwardly pats her shoulder until she stops but neither of them can show any sympathy for Aegon. That's how easy it would have been to keep his job! They could both offer comforting distraction to Viserys in his grief over Aemma but have nothing for the king whose their own son and grandson.

Alicent could only try to comfort Helaena during the actual funeral and like Rhaenyra sees this as a crime only against Helaena. Rhaenyra has some reason not to feel sympathy for Aegon's loss, but Alicent is his mother too, it's just that his tears, in particular, repulse her. Last time he was teary-eyed all the way to his coronation, and before that when she confronted him about raping the help, so when she's ready to chew him out for firing Otto and finds him sobbing more than ever, she just can't deal with it. Instead just going back to Cole to start taking her anger out on him as well as her shame and self-loathing.

Actually, that is the one thing I'll say for Otto, that I read his "I do not wish to hear of it" differently than most. Not as indifferent dismissal so much as his awkward attempt to give her absolution, and tell her this wasn't about the gods punishing her for sinning. His face showed its only trace of tenderness in that scene, and his voice was free of its usual smarmyness and condescension. In fact, between his look at AliCole arriving together last ep and his stopping Aegon from blaming Cole this week, I think there's a good chance he already what she meant to say. And he could've used that info to get rid of Cole and reclaim his job. Yet instead he refuses to throw Alicent under the wagon with Cole, for once putting her ahead of his own ambition.

On 6/24/2024 at 6:26 PM, RobertDeSneero said:

I think at least part of Otto's motivation was that Corlys is Daemon's ally and he wanted to prevent his proposal that his daughter Laela marry Viserys.

He sent Ali to console Viserys before Corlys tried to pimp out his own daughter. (Not to mention that Corlys only really got close to Daemon after Laena was rejected.) Just as Otto himself did not need to be Hand, with the kingdom surviving fine for 10 years with Lyonel Strong on the job, he did not need to have his own daughter be the new Queen and put her and her children in Daemon's line of fire. He and Viserys acted like the choice was only between 12yoLaena and 14/15yoAlicent when there must have been plenty of other eligible highborn maidens. He's not even good at his main goal of dealing with Daemon since he gave Daemon command of the City Watch and could have easily been killed by Daemon's dragon in 1.02 if Rhaenyra hadn't intervened to get the stolen dragon egg back peacefully.

[magdalene]

Crispy has reached special status for me.  He is now a fictional character on whose grave I will dance when someone finally offs him.

I liked both the Cargyll twins. There are not that many characters on this show I actually genuinely like.

[Lady S.]

On 6/25/2024 at 5:15 PM, Cool Breeze said:

In that particular conversation, I thought Otto was referring the slain prince, who is his great-grandson.  (Which, weird, because Olivia Cooke is 31 years old.  I know they start young in Westeros, but a grandma at that age?  Whew.) 

Since both Ali and Helaena were teen brides/mums, Olivia Cooke is only a few years too young. Alicent and Rhaenyra should only be around ~35 with ~20 years since Rhaenyra was named heir. The real problem is that the actors playing Ali's teen sons are both 25+ and look it. The eye-patch and scarring somehow makes Ewan Mitchell look even older than he does irl. As for Otto calling Jaehaerys his grandson, he could've been just being economical with words by leaving off the great-, but I prefer to think of it as a Freudian slip forgetting Alicent is his daughter and not his wife. She's been filling that role in a way ever since he started sending her out in her mother's dresses to seduce Viserys, who was around the same age as Otto and an extension of him as Otto ruled on his behalf. In later years when Vizzy was bedridden, Otto almost completely took over his role not just by sitting the throne but acting as partner to the Queen and patriarch of her family. 

Speaking of Freudian issues and emotional incest, the Madam did say in 1.09 how much Aemond had grown so yeah, I don't think she'd seen him since deflowering him at 13. Meaning he only went back to her after Alicent turned against him for killing Luke. Mummy issues indeed, and technically we don't even know if he's paying for anything more than naked cuddles. When she moves to kiss him he pulls aways and just curls up more to put his head in her lap.

Of course it's also another parallel with pathetic Daemon, so depressed he had to pull out of Mysaria in the pilot and hide his head under a blanky as she tried to console him about his relationship with Viserys. And Aemond and Daemon are both kidding themselves thinking everyone's afraid of them. We know Viserys didn't disinherit Daemon out of jealousy/fear, and that a murder plan which can swap in a toddler as target is not about fear either. Dude, your one big victory was actually all down to your hugeass dragon chomping your nephew while he was riding the dragon-equivalent of a tricycle.

Edited Thursday at 01:27 AM by Lady S.

[astrohip]

On 6/25/2024 at 6:27 PM, aghst said:

I've read about certain aspects of the first two episodes which are different than in the books.

So for all we know, this twins battle didn't come from the books either.

{No Spoilers}

The twins battle was in the book.

Note (and I'm not directing this at you @aghst as many others make the same mistake) that there is only one book, "Fire & Blood", not "books". GRRM intended "Fire & Blood" to be the complete history of the approx 300 year Targaryen Dynasty, from Aegon the Conqueror up to the end (roughly "Game of Thrones" era). In typical GRRM style, it spiraled out of control, so he split it into two parts. The first was Fire & Blood, covering about 150 years, and published in 2018. The second is both untitled, and again typical GRRM... unwritten. There were some previous novellas and short stories that he rolled into Fire & Blood.

What makes F&B unique is that it isn't written as fiction, but rather as history. And the historical narrators often cite various and differing accounts of the same events. I found it an interesting, if somewhat dry, read.

But the guts of the story are in the book, and this gives the writers a very detailed blueprint to follow. WIth the usual allowances for drama and TV.

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Just think how the whole harebrained scheme would have fallen apart if Black Erryk had gotten a haircut or shaved his beard after joining Rhaenyra. And even if Green Twin somehow succeeded in queenslaying, he wouldn't make it out alive anymore than Blood the babykiller did, so a death sentence either way to throw away a valuable Kingsguard. And even more of a pointless waste considering that killing Nyra would not actually prevent war. Certainly not when Daemon is still alive, and Jace is old enough to take over as heir and want his own vengeful war after losing his brother and his mother.

It is sad that Green Twin didn't appeal to anyone (if there was someone for him to appeal to...the Hand, maybe?)  to point out the stupidity of this plan, or just flounce off to wherever in Essos Laenor and his dude went.

You are so right that it's not like the death of Rhae would have ended the war. It would just have put Daemon (presumably) front and center. Or possibly Jace, or possibly Rhaenys would have stepped up.

This isn't something where you can try cutting off the head of the snake and expect the body to die.

[bluvelvet]

I keep thinking about the different family dynamics. Rhaenyra’s parents loved each other and loved her. She was brought up in love, and as such this is reflected in her own relationship with her children. Her parents doted on her and it was quite obvious that she was Viserys’s favorite child.
 

 Alicent and Otto had a colder relationship and this is reflected in how Alicent treats her children. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

[paigow]

Bad parents in Westeros are the norm... Good ones usually end up murdered

10 hours ago, bluvelvet said:

I keep thinking about the different family dynamics. Alicent and Otto had a colder relationship and this is reflected in how Alicent treats her children. 

 

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Bad parents in Westeros are the norm... Good ones usually end up murdered

 

To be fair, so do the bad ones.

[gail56]

To be clear about my feelings about Otto, I have no sympathy for the man. He rightly reaped what he sowed. The look on his face when he realized all his machinations led to this was hilarious. What he said to Aegon was true and that dressing down was fun to watch!

Still, as others have said, Criston Cole is now at the top of the people I want to see die list.

[Oscirus]

Otto was so dumb that he didn't realize that telling his grandson off like that would lead to his removal. Not even Tywin was that arrogant.

All team black has to do is get to Aemond, and the war is done. Nobody else poses a remote threat to team green.

[paigow]

 

17 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Not even Tywin was that arrogant.