S02.E01: A Son For A Son

[baldryanr]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

I will try. One.  PTB have fallen for Tom Glynn Carney - with good reason I will admit and are writing to his strengths. Two. They needed to flesh the character out anyways because he is now a main character.

Maybe they realized if they wanted to even things out a little instead of making Team Black = good and Team Green = evil, they had to do something to make them more sympathetic.  Hence Aemond being bullied as a kid and accidentally killing Lucerys, and Aegon portrayed as kind of a dick, but also irresponsible rather than evil, in this episode. 

This is especially true since people automatically expect the Starks to ally with the good guys - those honorable sticks in the mud would never team up with the baddies.

[Affogato]

On 6/19/2024 at 9:28 AM, paigow said:

 

I don’t think there is a satisfying explanation for how the dragons fly, aeronautically speaking.  There are science fictional elements to GRRM’s worldbuilding, but there are also a lot of elements that are just plain fantastical, even if they operate consistently once they are set into the framework of the world. 

Rhaenys’ grief was palpable. 

[Affogato]

On 6/18/2024 at 3:58 PM, go4luca said:

Did she?

But I'm still curious as to Vermithor.

I could be wrong  but I believe in the show we haven’t found out, yet, anyway.

[go4luca]

1 minute ago, Affogato said:

I could be wrong  but I believe in the show we haven’t found out, yet, anyway.

I think you're right.  I'm just thinking ahead and S1 never fully addressed why Damian sung the lullaby to him.  Vermithor seems like he will be a powerful ally for Team Black.

[Lady S.]

21 hours ago, aghst said:

Are Tyland and Cregan suppose to be the head of their respective houses and they look around 30-35 at most?

 

20 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Tyland's twin brother Jason (the one who kept hitting on Rhaenyra during the royal hunt episode) is the head of House Lannister.

Jefferson Hall, the actor playing both Lannister twins, is actually 46 so his chaacter(s) could be anywhere from 35 to his actual age. Tom Taylor is only 22, but that fits with Rhaenyra saying that he was closer to Jace's age than her own when she sent her boys out in 1.10. In a military society where noblemen can die sudden and violent deaths, it's not odd for their heirs to inherit as young men. The weird thing is this doesn't appear to be the case for this era's Starks. The previous lord looked pretty old when he swore his oath in the pilot, and must have been old indeed to have hosted Rhaenyra's great-grandparents. So I guess Cregan was just a fairly late in life son, like with Jon and Robin Arryn in the main series, old man dad old enough to be his kid's grandpa or great-grandpa.

14 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Can someone explain to me Aegon's glowup? Last season he was raping servant girls and fathering bastards in the fighting pit, now he's all "The queen is an endless mystery" bonhomie and encouraging Jaehaerys's antics at the Small Council and the Behind the Scenes commentary thinks it's cute.

I think it likely we'll see darker traits from him as the war goes on. Apologies to any Robert Baratheon fans, but I'm thinking of how he never even met Gendry or his other bastards, slept around, and abused his wife but was still seen as a jolly, comic king. I can buy Aegon only having pride in his royal kids, not giving a shit about his bastards' fates, and wanting to give his heir the attention he never got from his father. He thought he was never named heir because Viserys never liked him, when really we know he promised Rhaenyra not to supplant her long before Aegon became so unlikable. The only time we saw Vizzy affectionate with his son was at that hunt for his 2nd birthday, which, as Rhaenyra pointed out, Aegon wouldn't be able to remember. After the time jump the king clearly cared more about Rhaenyra and her sons than his own. Aegon cried all the way to his coronation but started smiling and waving his sword around once the crowd started cheering on cue, so I guess he's happier with his position now and just trying to do whatever he can to get more of that positive attention from the people. He doesn't want to be weak like his father, but does want to be a well-liked king like Viserys was. Maybe he knows Rhaenyra was allowed in the small council chamber as a kid--though I doubt she was royal cupbearer at 3/4yo--and is trying to imitate that practice with his own favorite kid.

[proserpina65]

Quote

but at the moment, team black has all the advantages. 

Daemon's dragon count included immature dragons and ones without riders.  Currently they have at most 5 mature dragons with riders, and only Caraxes has any war experience.  The Velaryon navy is the biggest, but the Lannisters have a big navy too. They haven't really discussed the number of men each side could field but there's a reason Rhaenyra was begging for men from the North.  So Team Black's advantages are not that great for the moment.  A lot will depend on how many houses join each side and if they can find riders for those unpaired dragons.

On 6/19/2024 at 7:07 PM, aghst said:

Are Tyland and Cregan suppose to be the head of their respective houses and they look around 30-35 at most?

 

Age has little to do with it.  It's eldest surviving son of the previous lord.

18 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Had you used your position as Hand and helped Westeros accept the idea of a female heir, there never would've been any tension. Or at least a lot less tension.

That's unlikely.  As Rhaenys pointed out in season one, there were plenty of lords who would never have accepted a queen on the Iron Throne, especially if there was a male alternative.  Even had Viserys not remarried and fathered sons, there was still Dameon.

18 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Can someone explain to me Aegon's glowup? Last season he was raping servant girls and fathering bastards in the fighting pit, now he's all "The queen is an endless mystery" bonhomie and encouraging Jaehaerys's antics at the Small Council and the Behind the Scenes commentary thinks it's cute.

Maybe he has more than one side to his character like most of the rest of the people on the show and we only saw the negative last season.

 

Edited June 21 by proserpina65

[magdalene]

3 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Maybe he has more than one side to his character like most of the rest of the people on the show and we only saw the negative last season.

Bingo!   I bet we will see not so much "people pleasing" in the coming episodes though.

[paigow]

King White Walker - not the Lannisters- wiped out the Dothraki.

[AntFTW]

6 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Age has little to do with it.  It's eldest surviving son of the previous lord.

Right, considering we saw literal children be the heads of their houses in GOT.

[AntFTW]

On 6/20/2024 at 8:12 PM, proserpina65 said:

That's unlikely.  As Rhaenys pointed out in season one, there were plenty of lords who would never have accepted a queen on the Iron Throne, especially if there was a male alternative.  Even had Viserys not remarried and fathered sons, there was still Dameon.

I think there still would have been tension also. Rhaenyra could have used all that time of being the Heir to build relationships and allies that would accept her as Queen, and that could help her defend her claim to the throne if she needed to call on them.

I think there would have been plots against her regardless, but at least she could have had some backup. She could have surrounded herself with people that supported her.

As long as Otto was alive, he was going to plot against Rhaenyra. The Lannisters, as always, seem like a lost cause. If Tyland is any indication, I don't think the Lannisters would have ever accepted her as Queen.

Edited Monday at 03:15 PM by AntFTW

[SharonH58]

Various thoughts - who decided to marry Aegon and Helena?  Alicent didn't seem to like the idea when she told Ren that Targaryen's had strange ideas.

I think Layrs knows exactly what is going on everywhere in King's Landing.  I bet he is mad he's not getting more foot time but I don't think he cares who A sleeps with.  Wonder if he wants to be Hand/Foot since he is badmouthing High Tower?

Aegon sure didn't care about his illegitimate kids that he let fight in the pits, so I don't think he cares much for his legitimate kids.   He's still a rotten person.  Good actor.

Alicent and Cole are hypocritical and deserve each other.  Aemond knows what is going on between them.

I didn't have any emotional attachment to Aegon's first born so that didn't affect me.  I felt bad for Helena.  

I am going to have to rewatch Cregan Stark now that someone said he was young Uhtred in TLK.  He was great in that.  I thought he did a good job as a Stark.

Which of Daemon's daughter's didn't have a dragon?  The one betrothed to Jace or Luke? 

Edited June 21 by SharonH58
adding

[iMonrey]

1 hour ago, SharonH58 said:

Which of Daemon's daughter's didn't have a dragon?  The one betrothed to Jace or Luke? 

I think her name is Rhaena and she was betrothed to Lucerys. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/19/2024 at 1:31 PM, Oscirus said:

I get that in order for the show to be a thing, something has to happen to make the war a legit struggle, but at the moment, team black has all the advantages.  It'll be interesting to see how they fuck it up. 

I wouldn't say "all" the advantages. 

1. If possession is 9/10th of the law, Team Green has possession of the throne. With that comes legitimacy in the eyes of some of the other houses in Westeros, likely some of the powers outside Westeros, the church, and a good portion of the small folk. With those things, they can generate advantages both in the long- and short-term.

2. Having more dragons does not necessarily off-set that Team Green has the biggest, baddest dragon on the block. Vhaegar probably could dispatch half of Team Black's dragons with the same lack of effort he needed to take out Luke and his dragon, and might be able to outfight multiple Team Black dragons.

3. The realm is still fundamentally sexist and will be slow to accept Queen Rhae no matter what she does if there's a plausible alternative.

4. Rhae and Daemon are much, much worse at diplomacy and the court game. Which is part of the reason why they got usurped in the first place. 

5. Rhae is (so far) operating within a moral framework and seems to have control over how crazy Daemon might go. Team Green is full of a bunch of people who are willing to make underhanded, immoral, Machiavellian moves if it will get them what they want. The lack of a moral center can be an advantage in war.

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, SharonH58 said:

I think Layrs knows exactly what is going on everywhere in King's Landing.  I bet he is mad he's not getting more foot time but I don't think he cares who A sleeps with.  Wonder if he wants to be Hand/Foot since he is badmouthing High Tower?

I doubt he wants to be Hand - that's a horrible job to have with someone like Aegon, who will happily blame him for all ills and punish him accordingly.  There's a limit to how harsh Aegon can actually be to Otto thanks to their familial relationship, while he could easily order someone like Larys tortured or killed for incompetence. 

However, Larys likely wants someone easier to manipulate in the position. 

[Sakura12]

Knowing the Targaryan's and we've seen Aemond is nicer to Haelena then Aegon, the twins could've been his. So it could've been a son for a son. Plus I think Daemon wants to kill Aemond. 

Rheanyra is going to be pissed that Daemon had a child killed.  But she'll need him now. 

Emma D'Arcy killed it with only having one line. 

How does Sir Crispy still have a job with all his fuck ups? They are letting him guard the royal family. And how is he still salty about Rheanyra. Wasn't his whole beef because he didn't want to be a whore and now he is with Alicent. 

Edited June 22 by Sakura12

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 6/21/2024 at 9:42 AM, SharonH58 said:

Various thoughts - who decided to marry Aegon and Helena?  Alicent didn't seem to like the idea when she told Ren that Targaryen's had strange ideas.

From themarysue.com:

Back in Season 1, Princess Rhaenyra Targaryen originally proposed that her younger half-sister Helaena marry her son Jacaerys Velaryon. Joining the cousins would, in Rhaenyra’s thinking, help ensure that her father’s younger children did not feel left out and endangered when King Viserys died and she became Queen per his wishes. However, Helaena’s mother Alicent Hightower had rightful but treasonous doubts about Jacaerys’ true parentage and refused the match. Instead, in order to strengthen her own side in the upcoming battle for succession, Alicent fell back on an old Targaryen tradition and married Helaena to her older son Aegon.

[iMonrey]

22 hours ago, baldryanr said:

However, Larys likely wants someone easier to manipulate in the position. 

I wonder who he has in mind. 

14 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

How does Sir Crispy still have a job with all his fuck ups?

Because up until now the only person with the power to dismiss him has been Alicent. We'll see what happens to him now. I wonder if Helaena has the wherewithal to tell Aegon what he was doing while his son was being slaughtered. 

Edited June 22 by iMonrey

[paigow]

20 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I wonder if Helaena has the wherewithal to tell Aegon what he was doing while his son was being slaughtered. 

If that happens, Aegon likely blames Alicent 

[RobertDeSneero]

As someone who is pro-Aemond and anti-Daemon, I enjoy seeing the latter (hopefully) being made to look worse in the eyes of the audience.  I also wish the ending had been more like in the book.

[Rapunzel]

On 6/16/2024 at 7:46 PM, Oscirus said:

Regardless of their intention, team black just gave Team Green the moral high ground with that murder. I'd be shocked if they didn't politicize the hell out of that murder during the war. On a positive note, that eliminates one dragon since any chance team Green had of Helena willing warring on a dragon went poof with her son's death.

I assume the public knows that Rhaenyra also lost her son, Luke. Perhaps it was covered up to protect Aemond, but this war is at least partly his fault. The rest lies with Alicent and her father. Alicent clearly couldn’t tell that her dying husband doped up on “milk of the poppy” thought he was talking to his daughter. She must realize that, after that dinner where he declared his daughter to be his heir multiple times, that that was his true intention. He was coherent long enough to say if he wanted the crown to go to either Alicent or Aegon instead of to Rhaenyra. 

 

It’s getting difficult to find any real likable characters, especially since Viserys died. I think the Sea Snake, his wife and their granddaughters are fairly decent so far, but we’ll see how long that, and their allegiance to Rhaenyra lasts. 

On 6/16/2024 at 7:29 PM, scarynikki12 said:

I thought Cristyn didn’t want to be anyone’s sex toy?

I know right? Especially since he swore an oath. He got so pissy when Rhaenyra was done with him. He acted like a 14 year old. Now Alicent is just using him for her own needs yet he is still extremely loyal to her and would burn himself to death by dragon if she asked him to. Alicent, along with her father, were quickly becoming some of my least favorite characters. I wonder what the ex-Hand is going to do now that Aegon ousted him. Ser Cristin probably doesn’t even know how to put on the “Hand” pin. I have a feeling all of his “advice” is going to be about killing Rhaenyra, conveniently forgetting she lost a son in this as well and didn’t start the war and was trying to avoid it. 

Edited Wednesday at 08:34 PM by Rapunzel

[proserpina65]

10 hours ago, Rapunzel said:

I assume the public knows that the public knows that Rhaenyra also lost her son, Luke.

Maybe they do, but I think by Westorosi standards there is a difference between two teenagers having a fight on their dragons which ends with one of them dying (and yes, Aemond doesn't look like a teenager but he can't be older than 18) and a 4 year old (I think, again, actually ages are a bit fuzzy on the show) being killed in his bed by hired assassins.

I'm not excusing Aemond.  He might not have intended Luke's death but he's fully responsible for it nonetheless.  But it's still not the same thing.

The reality is that people believe well-done spin, and Otto's spin was excellent since even the Blacks had heard it shortly after the funeral.  Unfortunately for the Greens, any goodwill he bought them was at least partly destroyed by Aegon's having all of King's Landing's ratcatchers killed regardless of their guilt or innocence.

[Rapunzel]

I think it was more than just a fight between the two. Luke was just trying to get home, said nothing to insult Aemond, took no physical action against him. A member of the royal family killing another with his own hands (or dragon) should have turned several of the other key families and groups against the Greens. Luke was young, he was betrothed, he stood to inherit Driftmark, etc. the fact that Aemond did what he did shows that he has a nasty streak in him and it was well known he hated Luke and he showed absolutely no remorse whatsoever after his death. He saw an opportunity to “get even” and took it. 

Add what Aegon did to the rat catchers and the Greens starting their usurped rule of the Iron Throne has them appearing extremely violent, full of vengeance, and incapable of ruling without fear and bloodshed. Luke never showed any malice towards Jaehaerys, had no part in killing him (he was, of course, already dead when the young prince met his horrible end) and he didn’t kill Aemond when he had the chance. I don’t believe that Luke would have agreed with Jaehaerys being killed. When they were younger, Luke and Aemond had a fight, started primarily by Aemond, and Luke didn’t intend to take his eye. He did show some remorse for the incident, but apparently Aemond holds a grudge and has definite revenge and anger management issues. Aemond was not ordered to hurt or kill Luke - his actions were his own showing his true nature. 

Jaehaerys’ death was actually not ordered by Rhaenyra, nor was it directly  ordered by Daemon. He asked the assassins to get him Aemond. They couldn’t find him alone, so rather than forfeit the coin they were going to get, they wrongly thought Jaehaerys would suffice. Daemon should have hired more competent assassins. If/when war breaks out, he played a role in it as well. Jaehaerys and Luke were essentially innocents and neither deserved the death they got due to their respective families being incompetent and power hungry. 

The Greens are acting purely out of vengeance and their desperate desire to cling to the iron thrown even though it was wrongly taken by a usurper who is cold blooded, violent, unpredictable and uncontrollable. Given that Otto is no longer Hand anymore, I wonder what advice Ser Cristin will give Aegon. Will he continue to be Alicent’s boy toy? 

Edited Thursday at 12:37 PM by Rapunzel

[proserpina65]

21 hours ago, Rapunzel said:

I think it was more than just a fight between the two. Luke was just trying to get home, said nothing to insult Aemond, took no physical action against him. A member of the royal family killing another with his own hands (or dragon) should have turned several of the other key families and groups against the Greens. Luke was young, he was betrothed, he stood to inherit Driftmark, etc. the fact that Aemond did what he did shows that he has a nasty streak in him and it was well known he hated Luke and he showed absolutely no remorse whatsoever after his death. He saw an opportunity to “get even” and took it. 

I don't entirely disagree, but I'm talking about how it would likely be seen by outsiders.  Luke would not necessarily be considered a child at 14 in Westeros whereas a toddler definitely would be.  We haven't yet seen anyone's reaction to Luke's death other than the Blacks'.  Perhaps that's why some of those houses haven't yet declared for a side even if they might've been more inclined towards supporting Aegon.

 

21 hours ago, Rapunzel said:

Jaehaerys’ death was actually not ordered by Rhaenyra, nor was it directly  ordered by Daemon. He asked the assassins to get him Aemond. They couldn’t find him alone, so rather than forfeit the coin they were going to get, they wrongly thought Jaehaerys would suffice. Daemon should have hired more competent assassins. If/when war breaks out, he played a role in it as well.

Daemon's silence when directly asked what if Aemond wasn't there indicated to me that he absolutely was fine with whatever prince they could find.  Plus, the non-ratcatcher literally says "He said a son for a son" (a phrase we heard Daemon use earlier in the episode with Rhaenys) so it seems he did elaborate on his instructions to the assassins before going on his merry way.

[paigow]

16 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Luke would not necessarily be considered a child at 14 in Westeros

Dude flew around on a WMD... he can be tried as an adult

[Oscirus]

On 6/26/2024 at 5:44 PM, Rapunzel said:

I think it was more than just a fight between the two. Luke was just trying to get home, said nothing to insult Aemond, took no physical action against him. A member of the royal family killing another with his own hands (or dragon) should have turned several of the other key families and groups against the Greens. Luke was young, he was betrothed, he stood to inherit Driftmark, etc. the fact that Aemond did what he did shows that he has a nasty streak in him and it was well known he hated Luke and he showed absolutely no remorse whatsoever after his death. He saw an opportunity to “get even” and took it. 

Add what Aegon did to the rat catchers and the Greens starting their usurped rule of the Iron Throne has them appearing extremely violent, full of vengeance, and incapable of ruling without fear and bloodshed. Luke never showed any malice towards Jaehaerys, had no part in killing him (he was, of course, already dead when the young prince met his horrible end) and he didn’t kill Aemond when he had the chance. I don’t believe that Luke would have agreed with Jaehaerys being killed. When they were younger, Luke and Aemond had a fight, started primarily by Aemond, and Luke didn’t intend to take his eye. He did show some remorse for the incident, but apparently Aemond holds a grudge and has definite revenge and anger management issues. Aemond was not ordered to hurt or kill Luke - his actions were his own showing his true nature. 

Jaehaerys’ death was actually not ordered by Rhaenyra, nor was it directly  ordered by Daemon. He asked the assassins to get him Aemond. They couldn’t find him alone, so rather than forfeit the coin they were going to get, they wrongly thought Jaehaerys would suffice. Daemon should have hired more competent assassins. If/when war breaks out, he played a role in it as well. Jaehaerys and Luke were essentially innocents and neither deserved the death they got due to their respective families being incompetent and power hungry. 

The Greens are acting purely out of vengeance and their desperate desire to cling to the iron thrown even though it was wrongly taken by a usurper who is cold blooded, violent, unpredictable and uncontrollable. Given that Otto is no longer Hand anymore, I wonder what advice Ser Cristin will give Aegon. Will he continue to be Alicent’s boy toy? 

 

1. As far as everybody knows, it was a fight started by two people on dragons. Only Green Allies knew what happened right before or during the fight. A person's opinion of what went down will probably be influenced by whether they're team Green or team Black with nobody really jumping to either side.

2. That fight when they were younger started because 4 people kept attacking him for talking shit when he told them to knock it off; they wouldn't, yet he paid the price. Hell, even after, he was in more trouble than they were. Luke was hardly innocent in that instance.

3. I don't imagine that anybody would kill the crown prince unless they thought they had Daemon's permission. If that wasn't his intention, Daemon should've been clearer in his instructions.

4. 

[paigow]

On 6/26/2024 at 5:44 PM, Rapunzel said:

Daemon should have hired more competent assassins. 

This guy was not born yet...

[AntFTW]

On 6/26/2024 at 11:07 AM, proserpina65 said:

Maybe they do, but I think by Westorosi standards there is a difference between two teenagers having a fight on their dragons which ends with one of them dying (and yes, Aemond doesn't look like a teenager but he can't be older than 18)

I think all of them are teenagers, right? I feel like Aegon is 20 at the most.

[proserpina65]

12 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I think all of them are teenagers, right? I feel like Aegon is 20 at the most.

Around that, I think.  Honestly, I know what the showrunner says (Aemond is 18, Helaena about 19 and Aegon 21) but that doesn't match up with specific lines in Eps 6 and 8 about how many years have passed, so I'm confused when it comes to their ages.  I'm gonna go with Ryan Condal on this because otherwise Aemond couldn't be older than 16 and that makes the brothel scene even more uncomfortable than it already was.

Edited 13 hours ago by proserpina65