S01.E04 (BBC/D+): 73 Yards

[DanaK]

Premiering May 25 at midnight Saturday in the UK streaming on BBC iPlayer and Disney+ internationally (in the U.S. that would be 7pm EDT Friday evening) and then broadcast on BBC One 18:50pm (6:50pm) UK time

Synopsis: Landing on the Welsh coast, the Doctor and Ruby embark on the strangest journey of their lives. In a rain-lashed pub, the locals sit in fear of ancient legends coming to life.

Writer: Russell T. Davies

Director: Dylan Holmes Williams

Runtime: 47 minutes

Full production listing https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001zpzs

[DanaK]

 

[DanaK]

First look images

https://www.tvzoneuk.com/post/doctorwho-s1e4-nextime

[NeenerNeener]

This one was awesome! It was like Who crossed with Black Mirror.

And we got to see Unit and Kate Lethbridge-Stewart again. I wonder what Old Ruby was telling all those people that made them run away screaming, though.

[DanaK]

This was an odd episode and I’m not sure I understood what happened.  I’m going to have to sit on it for a bit and read what others think happened. Millie did great though

No opening credits sequence, like Jodie’s first episode

[tkc]

I don’t have much coherent to say, but at times it felt like The Twilight Zone, and the ending gave me 2001: A Space Odyssey vibes.

Millie’s aging styling was subtle and effective. I was glad they chose a different actress for elderly Ruby rather than trying to make Millie out to be 65 years older. 

It was all quite overwhelming… and beautiful in its way. Well done, show!

[PurpleTentacle]

I don't know. I assumed it was going to be old Ruby, but none of the resolution made much sense.

Why does she stay away 73 yards? Why can't you zoom in on her face? What does she say to people that makes them hate and/or fear Ruby? Why would she do that? Why does she keep standing there, signing for 65 years? Why does she have so much longer hair than old Ruby when she was dying? What exactly was the fairy circle and what did it do? How did Ruby travel back in time? Was it her own power or was it the fairy circle? Why did the "don't step" only work the second time around? Why don't her signs look more like "no, no no, no, no", like putting out your arms and showing the palms of your hand, in a stop!-motion, instead of her mini macarena? What exactly happened to the doctor?

You can always keep some things unanswered in a story, but not literally everything. The whole season so far, it kinda seems like RTD writes his scripts in an afternoon and then refuses to do a second pass, to make it make sense and be consistent.

Also what I learned from this episode: Welsh people are dicks. Not only will they screw with you every chance they get (of course the phone thing was to trick us for a moment, to suggest Ruby was in the past), they will also plunge the world into nuclear war, the first chance they get. RTD must really hate his time in Cardiff, if that's the impression he has of Welsh people...

On that last point... does RTD know that Britain already has nukes? That's pretty much the only reason why they are currently building new nuclear power plants, to keep their supply of weapons grade material going. Those will last them for like half a century, once they are finally finished, which I assume they will be before 2046. Why would the Brits need to buy nukes from Pakistan? RTD really seems to think that Britain only has access to nukes through NATO, which just isn't the case. Did he do no research at all?

I'm always disappointed by how dumb Unit and Kate Stewart are, when the script demands it. You'd think she'd take her ear piece out as a precaution, when her team approaches the old lady. But no, we have to have her get disgusted and/or fearfull of Ruby.

Also why did Unit never try to get somebody like a meter away, not talk to the old lady and then make a police sketch of her? Or do you also get downgraded to 73 Yard vision when you are only one meter away? Then why do people not notice when they talk to her? Perception filter?

And Donna or Mel never learned of this other companion of the doctor's, who had fallen on supernaturally hard times? I mean they both work for Unit now. It doesn't seem like them that they'd drop her, just because Kate orderd it. Donna would probably even tell the 14th doctor about it. But let's disregard that for a second, Unit just leaves the Tardis on a cliff? Why? Just because they hate Ruby now? Makes no sense. In the past they always made it a priority to secure the Tardis. I think it would have been better if we'd never involved Unit and just pretended that them and Ruby just never learned about each other.

I think the Hiker is the most interaction we've gotten out of the mysterious woman this season. She's been in every episode, but so far she got like a sentence max, not a whole conversation that she got here with Ruby.

Btw. do we really still need to die at 85 with dementia in a hospital in 60 years? Medical science hasn't come further than that? Well that's depressing. We have promising treatments for that being developed right now. So the show is saying that none of them work?

Edited May 25 by PurpleTentacle

[Affogato]

https://www.ancient-origins.net/human-origins-folklore/do-you-dare-enter-fairy-ring-mythical-mushroom-portals-supernatural-003677
 

“If you dare to enter a ring, many myths warn you will die young. You also become invisible to the mortal world, unable to escape the ring, or you are transported instantly to the fairy realm. You might also lose an eye for your foolishness. Either way, you will be forced to dance around the ring until you die of exhaustion or madness.”

 

of course literary license made this a different portal than a naturally occurring (but weird looking) ring of mushrooms, but the doctor was likely dancing with the fairies. 

Edited May 25 by Affogato

[Affogato]

There seem to be a lot of easter eggs in this episode, I recognised the inn. Does Coke really cost that much?

I think that old Ruby is the spectre of Ruby’s death, which puts a timeline on saving the Doctor from his entrapment in the fairy circle. It also stops her life’s progress, no romances or great works. Mortality is always 73 yards away. 
 

 People are afraid of mortality, get a close look and you run, screaming. 
 

i suppose that mad jack feels like her responsibility. 
 

i think the thing may have worked better if the fairy circle was not a magical construct of twigs and bird skulls. Was jack trapped there and the doctor made an exchange? i think so. 

Edited May 25 by Affogato

[DanaK]

3 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I don't know. I assumed it was going to be old Ruby, but none of the resolution made much sense.

Why does she stay away 73 yards? Why can't you zoom in on her face? What does she say to people that makes them hate and/or fear Ruby? Why would she do that? Why does she keep standing there, signing for 65 years? Why does she have so much longer hair than old Ruby when she was dying? What exactly was the fairy circle and what did it do? How did Ruby travel back in time? Was it her own power or was it the fairy circle? Why did the "don't step" only work the second time around? Why don't her signs look more like "no, no no, no, no", like putting out your arms and showing the palms of your hand, in a stop!-motion, instead of her mini macarena? What exactly happened to the doctor?

You can always keep some things unanswered in a story, but not literally everything. The whole season so far, it kinda seems like RTD writes his scripts in an afternoon and then refuses to do a second pass, to make it make sense and be consistent.

Also what I learned from this episode: Welsh people are dicks. Not only will they screw with you every chance they get (of course the phone thing was to trick us for a moment, to suggest Ruby was in the past), they will also plunge the world into nuclear war, the first chance they get. RTD must really hate his time in Cardiff, if that's the impression he has of Welsh people...

On that last point... does RTD know that Britain already has nukes? That's pretty much the only reason why they are currently building new nuclear power plants, to keep their supply of weapons grade material going. Those will last them for like half a century, once they are finally finished, which I assume they will be before 2046. Why would the Brits need to buy nukes from Pakistan? RTD really seems to think that Britain only has access to nukes through NATO, which just isn't the case. Did he do no research at all?

I'm always disappointed by how dumb Unit and Kate Stewart are, when the script demands it. You'd think she'd take her ear piece out as a precaution, when her team approaches the old lady. But no, we have to have her get disgusted and/or fearfull of Ruby.

Also why did Unit never try to get somebody like a meter away, not talk to the old lady and then make a police sketch of her? Or do you also get downgraded to 73 Yard vision when you are only one meter away? Then why do people not notice when they talk to her? Perception filter?

And Donna or Mel never learned of this other companion of the doctor's, who had fallen on supernaturally hard times? I mean they both work for Unit now. It doesn't seem like them that they'd drop her, just because Kate orderd it. Donna would probably even tell the 14th doctor about it. But let's disregard that for a second, Unit just leaves the Tardis on a cliff? Why? Just because they hate Ruby now? Makes no sense. In the past they always made it a priority to secure the Tardis. I think it would have been better if we'd never involved Unit and just pretended that them and Ruby just never learned about each other.

I think the Hiker is the most interaction we've gotten out of the mysterious woman this season. She's been in every episode, but so far she got like a sentence max, not a whole conversation that she got here with Ruby.

Btw. do we really still need to die at 85 with dementia in a hospital in 60 years? Medical science hasn't come further than that? Well that's depressing. We have promising treatments for that being developed right now. So the show is saying that none of them work?

You do know that Davies is Welsh, right?

[PurpleTentacle]

2 hours ago, DanaK said:

You do know that Davies is Welsh, right?

Well I guess he also hates himself. It's a joke, it doesn't have to make perfect sense.

btw. you can quote relevant parts of a post. Quoting the whole thing doesn't make much sense.

[DanaK]

12 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Well I guess he also hates himself. It's a joke, it doesn't have to make perfect sense.

btw. you can quote relevant parts of a post. Quoting the whole thing doesn't make much sense.

I'm also on another board where I can't do that, so sometimes I forget I can do it here

I think in the end after listening to what others say here and elsewhere and understanding things better, I'm giving this an 8 out of 10. Even if I didn't understand it that well on first watch, I wasn't bored

 

[tv-talk]

So Ruby subjected that other woman to sexual horrors and predations or whatever was implied there so that she could be sure the PM "was a monster"? Uhhh...shouldnt she have put herself through that instead? Kind of a truly awful thing to do to a person.

Overall thought it was about 75% great episode and 25% schlock. Nothing was explained at the end, at all. I'm left assuming the idea is Welsh magic saved Britain from a Welshman initiating a nuclear holocaust. And the Doctor took a very long nap. 

 

[WAnglais1]

Good idea, half-butt execution.

What is it with stepping on things this season? A butterfly, a landmine, a bunch of twigs and strings? 

The Doctor gets sucked into the void and exchanged for the Evil!PM? Maybe I'm an idiot, but I didn't get that from what happened on screen. 

Once again, the companion is "the most special person to ever live in all of time and space." Paging Rose, Donna, Wilf, and the rest of you.

Do I love Ncuti? Yes, I do. Millie is great, too. They have fantastic chemistry, but for the love of Rassilon, does RTD only have one set of tricks? 

[Affogato]

13 minutes ago, WAnglais1 said:

 

The Doctor gets sucked into the void and exchanged for the Evil!PM? Maybe I'm an idiot, but I didn't get that from what happened on screen. 

 

 Not necessarily ‘the void.’

I think the fairy circle was put there to contain mad jack. i do think it was bad that it was as frangible as it was, so easily broken. But perhaps it was recent and permanent when broken down by the weather. 

[gail56]

11 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

>>I'm always disappointed by how dumb Unit and Kate Stewart are, when the script demands it. You'd think she'd take her ear piece out as a precaution, when her team approaches the old lady. But no, we have to have her get disgusted and/or fearfull of Ruby.<<<

Not just her, but her mother as well. They both looked at her like she was the most terrible person all of a sudden. So many unanswered questions in this one. Maybe as time goes on we will get more answers.

 

 

 

Edited May 25 by gail56

[baldryanr]

So is Ruby supposed to be a saint?  She mentioned not wanting to go on a boat or plane because she was worried about killing the old lady, but after getting disowned by her mom and spending years not being able to forge any lasting connections you'd think she would just buy a rifle and try shooting her.

[tkc]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

…but after getting disowned by her mom and spending years not being able to forge any lasting connections you'd think she would just buy a rifle and try shooting her.

Why such a violent suggestion? It’s not like Ruby’s Welsh! 😁

[tv-talk]

11 hours ago, Affogato said:

i think the thing may have worked better if the fairy circle was not a magical construct of twigs and bird skulls. Was jack trapped there and the doctor made an exchange? i think so. 

I didnt think any of it made much sense. The Doctor knew about Mad Jack as the PM who almost launched nuclear missiles- but actually history didnt know that. He never got the command codes and his plan was known only to him and Ruby thanks to the Doctor telling her. Timey wimey indeed.

[Affogato]

12 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I didnt think any of it made much sense. The Doctor knew about Mad Jack as the PM who almost launched nuclear missiles- but actually history didnt know that. He never got the command codes and his plan was known only to him and Ruby thanks to the Doctor telling her. Timey wimey indeed.

I wonder if mad jack shows up again in some way, or that poor girl. 

[DanaK]

Overnight ratings were 2.62 million viewers, slightly more than the premiere episode "Space Babies" 2.6 million. Chart rank unknown at the moment

[Starchild]

15 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I didnt think any of it made much sense. The Doctor knew about Mad Jack as the PM who almost launched nuclear missiles- but actually history didnt know that. He never got the command codes and his plan was known only to him and Ruby thanks to the Doctor telling her. Timey wimey indeed.

Right? I kept thinking, well if Ruby came back in time and stopped the Doctor from breaking the fairy circle, then who was around to stop apGwilliam in 2046?

[tv-talk]

6 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Right? I kept thinking, well if Ruby came back in time and stopped the Doctor from breaking the fairy circle, then who was around to stop apGwilliam in 2046?

And was "Mad Jack" really all that big a deal anyway? I mean in the pantheon of Who villains the guy was a nothingburger. Was the fairy circle supposed to somehow have been stopping him but the Doctor broke it so the magic put old Ruby 73 yards away from young Ruby for 40yrs?

I liked so much of this episode but geez it was just so M.Night in the end, all the creepy and interesting lead-up ends with a fizzle rather than a bang. At the very least tell me why Old Ruby caused people to run away and make her Mother hate her.

[DanaK]

45 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Right? I kept thinking, well if Ruby came back in time and stopped the Doctor from breaking the fairy circle, then who was around to stop apGwilliam in 2046?

Maybe the Doctor this time around since he won't disappear in this timeline?

Update on overnights, the episode was 6th for the night and the #1 scripted show. The FA Cup final was #1 at 4.2 million

 

[DanaK]

35 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

And was "Mad Jack" really all that big a deal anyway? I mean in the pantheon of Who villains the guy was a nothingburger. Was the fairy circle supposed to somehow have been stopping him but the Doctor broke it so the magic put old Ruby 73 yards away from young Ruby for 40yrs?

I liked so much of this episode but geez it was just so M.Night in the end, all the creepy and interesting lead-up ends with a fizzle rather than a bang. At the very least tell me why Old Ruby caused people to run away and make her Mother hate her.

One, I've seen theories that "Mad Jack" Roger didn't matter in regards the fairies punishing Ruby for her transgression with the papers she read. She thought he was who she was supposed to stop in order to stop what what happening to her and did so, but it didn't matter to her penance, which is why she lived out her life after she took him down until she died of old age. Then the fairies apparently took pity on her (or saw that she did good by stopping Roger) and allowed her to go back to the beginning with a warning so she would not transgress again

Two, Davies seems to suggest on BTS stuff that it didn't matter what the old lady said and he won't ever spell it out, you just need to use your imagination to think that the old lady is saying *something* bad enough or her whole existence is doing something bad enough to scare the person away and not want any contact with Ruby ever again

[tv-talk]

12 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Two, Davies seems to suggest on BTS stuff that it didn't matter what the old lady said and he won't ever spell it out, you just need to use your imagination to think that the old lady is saying *something* bad enough or her whole existence is doing something bad enough to scare the person away and not want any contact with Ruby ever again

I get that and would be fine with it but not from her Mom! Or Unit really, but for her Mom to totally disavow her and never see her again? I found that a bit flippant as far as how RTD was treating his characters, Ruby's Mom would have never done thought- or so we would have thought. 

[DanaK]

11 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

I get that and would be fine with it but not from her Mom! Or Unit really, but for her Mom to totally disavow her and never see her again? I found that a bit flippant as far as how RTD was treating his characters, Ruby's Mom would have never done thought- or so we would have thought. 

Maybe the Old Woman told her mom that Ruby was being haunted and the only way to save her soul was to stay away forever. The thing is, Ruby was being punished for reading the spirit messages and her punishment was being abandoned by everyone that came in contact with the Old Woman. Whatever was said to her mom was whatever needed to be said to get her to abandon Ruby. Whatever that was Davies is leaving it up to the viewers to imagine and different people will come up with different things

[Enigma X]

I really liked this episode a lot, but I have the exact same question as many of you have.

Besides what did future Ruby say or if apGwilliam still became Prime Minister, I am confused about whether everything the people said in the pub was untrue. At the time, it seemed as if they were making things up to scare Ruby, but Mad Jack really did exist. I guess within all the other questions that this episode left us with that this is a minor question (maybe?).

Edited May 26 by Enigma X

[DanaK]

6 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I really liked this episode a lot, but I have the exact same question as many of you have.

Besides what did future Ruby say or if apGwilliam still became Prime Minister, I am confused about whether everything the people said in the pub was untrue. At the time, it seemed as if they were making things up to scare Ruby, but Mad Jack really did exist. I guess within all the other questions that this episode left us with that this is a minor question (maybe?).

From what I've seen others theorize, the folks in the pub knew the stories including the Mad Jack stuff but didn't believe them though they were, apparently, true. But they recounted them so we the audience could learn about them

[tv-talk]

34 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Maybe the Old Woman told her mom that Ruby was being haunted and the only way to save her soul was to stay away forever. The thing is, Ruby was being punished for reading the spirit messages and her punishment was being abandoned by everyone that came in contact with the Old Woman. Whatever was said to her mom was whatever needed to be said to get her to abandon Ruby. Whatever that was Davies is leaving it up to the viewers to imagine and different people will come up with different things

Well that would mean the Welsh magic had cursed her, that there was no logical reason for everyone to abandon her, they were compelled too via the fairy magic. Yes, RTD is leaving it up to viewers to think what they want- I'm not a huge fan of that unless it's very specific as opposed to virtually every aspect of the story.

So where are people theorizing the Doctor was during all this? The fairy magic just eliminated him I suppose? Then when Ruby had done her penance, dropped her back in time to where he existed? Suppose I am not too comfortable with the notion that a Companion is the one who had a trippy time/dimension experience without the Doctor having any awareness of it at all- he's the transdimensional being afterall, though that has probably happened before in Eps that I've missed.  

[DanaK]

44 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Well that would mean the Welsh magic had cursed her, that there was no logical reason for everyone to abandon her, they were compelled too via the fairy magic. Yes, RTD is leaving it up to viewers to think what they want- I'm not a huge fan of that unless it's very specific as opposed to virtually every aspect of the story.

So where are people theorizing the Doctor was during all this? The fairy magic just eliminated him I suppose? Then when Ruby had done her penance, dropped her back in time to where he existed? Suppose I am not too comfortable with the notion that a Companion is the one who had a trippy time/dimension experience without the Doctor having any awareness of it at all- he's the transdimensional being afterall, though that has probably happened before in Eps that I've missed.  

Given the Doctor broke the circle, possibly he had to do penance as well, so he got disappeared into the cornfield (Twilight Zone reference). Or having the Doctor unavailable was part of Ruby's penance so he couldn't be around to help her at all

[Affogato]

8 hours ago, tv-talk said:

I get that and would be fine with it but not from her Mom! Or Unit really, but for her Mom to totally disavow her and never see her again? I found that a bit flippant as far as how RTD was treating his characters, Ruby's Mom would have never done thought- or so we would have thought. 

I think she was death and when they approached her they saw their own deaths. Heard. 

[paulvdb]

16 hours ago, Starchild said:

Right? I kept thinking, well if Ruby came back in time and stopped the Doctor from breaking the fairy circle, then who was around to stop apGwilliam in 2046?

He was Mad Jack, so if the Doctor didn't break the circle Mad Jack would not get out and there would be no ap Gwilliam. That part at least made sense to me unlike some other things that other posters already commented about.

[Enigma X]

What is confusing to me is that (well many things are) the second time around the Doctor still says ap Gwilliam became Prime Minister. There was no indication hat since he hadn’t stepped in the circle that had not happened.

Also, that circle is in a fairly convenient spot for someone not knowing local lore (a tourist or just a psycho who wants Mad Jack free) to step on. At some point, someone is going to break that circle again.

Edited May 27 by Enigma X

[ABay]

On 5/25/2024 at 5:08 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

Also why did Unit never try to get somebody like a meter away, not talk to the old lady and then make a police sketch of her? Or do you also get downgraded to 73 Yard vision when you are only one meter away? Then why do people not notice when they talk to her? Perception filter?

I applauded your entire post but loved this part especially. Yes! Why did no one think of that? You should apply to UNIT, they clearly need someone to think things through for them.

[questionfear]

23 hours ago, ABay said:

I applauded your entire post but loved this part especially. Yes! Why did no one think of that? You should apply to UNIT, they clearly need someone to think things through for them.

I think it's implied that no matter how close you get, you can't get a clearer vision of her unless you're interacting with her.

If the cameras and other surveillance didn't work I bet trying to draw her would also fail in some way. And it might be risky to try to shoot her even at a short distance if she "felt" farther away, makes it hard to aim.

[tennisgurl]

That was just so much, I'm confused but I think mostly in a good way? I was certainly riveted, it was like Doctor Who does Twilight Zone/Black Mirror, but I really wanted some actual answers. I don't need to know everything, they were clearly going for a fantastical horror vibe so I want to leave some things unsaid, but I wanted a little something. Why was elderly Ruby always at 73 yards? What magic did she do that made people so scared of Ruby that they refused to ever look at her again and crack up, including her own mom and the nuke happy PM? If she was elderly Ruby and she wanted to stop the time loop, why was she just signing ominously while teleporting around? Where was the Doctor? Was Mad Jack a demon being held in the fairy circle who became the PM? Why are Welsh people who hang out in pubs such dicks? 

Seriously, that scene in the pub really bugged me. What the hell was their problem, did they just feel like fucking with Ruby because she's English? They see a scared young woman running in shaking with fear and looking for her missing friend and they decide it would be hilarious to scare her even more? She certainly wasn't being "a bit racist" she asked if she could pay for a room on her phone, she only started to explain her phone when the lady just gave her a blank stare for ages, and they were the ones who started going on about fairies and ghosts, she just asked what the circle thing by the ocean was, a totally understandable question. 

Poor Ruby really got put through the ringer, her mom changing the locks on their apartment really hurt, its pretty impressive she kept it together as well as she did. I guess the Doctor went off to join the fairies for a spell after she stepped on their fairy circle?

I guess we should just say "the fairies did it" and be done with it? Even Kate said that they have been dealing with supernatural threats as well as aliens, so I guess fairies are just around to cause trouble and cause alien travelers to disappear when they cross their domain? This episode left me very stressed and creeped out, I really liked it even if I did want more answers. 

Edited May 28 by tennisgurl

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

That was just so much, I'm confused but I think mostly in a good way? I was certainly riveted, it was like Doctor Who does Twilight Zone/Black Mirror, but I really wanted some actual answers. I don't need to know everything, they were clearly going for a fantastical horror vibe so I want to leave some things unsaid, but I wanted a little something. Why was elderly Ruby always at 73 yards? What magic did she do that made people so scared of Ruby that they refused to ever look at her again and crack up, including her own mom and the nuke happy PM? If she was elderly Ruby and she wanted to stop the time loop, why was she just signing ominously while teleporting around? Where was the Doctor? Was Mad Jack a demon being held in the fairy circle who became the PM? Why are Welsh people who hang out in pubs such dicks? 

Seriously, that scene in the pub really bugged me. What the hell was their problem, did they just feel like fucking with Ruby because she's English? They see a scared young woman running in shaking with fear and looking for her missing friend and they decide it would be hilarious to scare her even more? She certainly wasn't being "a bit racist" she asked if she could pay for a room on her phone, she only started to explain her phone when the lady just gave her a blank stare for ages, and they were the ones who started going on about fairies and ghosts, she just asked what the circle thing by the ocean was, a totally understandable question. 

Poor Ruby really got put through the ringer, her mom changing the locks on their apartment really hurt, its pretty impressive she kept it together as well as she did. I guess the Doctor went off to join the fairies for a spell after she stepped on their fairy circle?

I guess we should just say "the fairies did it" and be done with it? Even Kate said that they have been dealing with supernatural threats as well as aliens, so I guess fairies are just around to cause trouble and cause alien travelers to disappear when they cross their domain? This episode left me very stressed and creeped out, I really liked it even if I did want more answers. 

This is what I've been able to gather rewatching the episode and talking to others on another forum, but some of it is interpretation or best left up to your imagination. At least with your first two questions, the Doctor stepped into a fairy circle and broke it and Ruby read a couple of scrolls. Both of those were offensive to the fairies/spirits and the Doctor was punished by being disappeared (or Ruby just got sent to another timeline as Kate suggested) and Ruby was punished with people abandoning her and running away from her when they meet the Old Woman. That played on Ruby's lifelong fear of abandonment, like her birth mother abandoned her at the church). So she really couldn't regularly share the mystery of the Old Woman with people so it made it hard for her to make connections with people. The particular distance probably didn't matter too much except it made it hard for Ruby to see the Woman fully. Her punishment was to keep people at a distance and to feel abandoned. For the viewer, It ultimately doesn't matter what the Old Woman did or said to the people talking to her, it was about the horror of causing people to abandon Ruby and leaving her alone. I think Davies said it was different for different people and whatever he would have written, wouldn't be satisfying to the viewer. It was up to the viewer to try to imagine the worst thing possible that would make someone, especially a mother, to abandon a person. At the end of Ruby's life, the fairies apparently took pity on her and allowed her spirit to return to 2024 and warn young Ruby not to step into the fairy circle, so the punishment didn't start up again. Whether the Roger guy truly needed to be taken out or not is not certain but Ruby felt it was her mission in order to end her torment so she took Roger out, but the torment didn't end until her death. Perhaps it did earn her some brownie points with the spirits. Note that the people at the inn relayed the meaning of the fairy circles and Mad Jack for the viewers, even if they were just winding Ruby up and didn't believe the stories themselves and Kate related some stuff about timelines. Listen closely to both and you'll get some explanation out of it

Edited May 28 by DanaK

[lovett1979]

46 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Ruby was punished with people abandoning her and running away from her when they meet the Old Woman. That played on Ruby's lifelong fear of abandonment, like her birth mother abandoned her at the church). 

Her punishment was to keep people at a distance and to feel abandoned. For the viewer, It ultimately doesn't matter what the Old Woman did or said to the people talking to her, it was about the horror of causing people to abandon Ruby and leaving her alone. I think Davies said it was different for different people and whatever he would have written, wouldn't be satisfying to the viewer. It was up to the viewer to try to imagine the worst thing possible that would make someone, especially a mother, to abandon a person. 

Whether the Roger guy truly needed to be taken out or not is not certain but Ruby felt it was her mission in order to end her torment so she took Roger out, but the torment didn't end until her death.

It makes sense to me that the words/hand motions/psychic field/whatever that the old woman was doing would cause people to hate/fear/abandon Ruby. That plays into a recurring theme for Ruby, as well center the magic around her. I don't need it explained exactly. I don't care what she was actually saying or doing. But I have 2 problems. First, that her magic worked though the UNIT ear pieces and didn't just effect the soldiers, but Kate herself. And second, more importantly, that it worked on the evil PM. Why would some curse/spell/whatever centered on Ruby cause him to flee and resign from politics? We didn't see him have a particularly close relationship or anything with her. How could the old woman cause him to run like that? Also, there was no need for the sexual predator aspect of his story there at all. 

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, lovett1979 said:

It makes sense to me that the words/hand motions/psychic field/whatever that the old woman was doing would cause people to hate/fear/abandon Ruby. That plays into a recurring theme for Ruby, as well center the magic around her. I don't need it explained exactly. I don't care what she was actually saying or doing. But I have 2 problems. First, that her magic worked though the UNIT ear pieces and didn't just effect the soldiers, but Kate herself. And second, more importantly, that it worked on the evil PM. Why would some curse/spell/whatever centered on Ruby cause him to flee and resign from politics? We didn't see him have a particularly close relationship or anything with her. How could the old woman cause him to run like that? Also, there was no need for the sexual predator aspect of his story there at all. 

Well, it wasn't just people close to Ruby that became fearful and ran away when they talked to the woman or felt her effects. I guess with Kate listening in via her earpiece to whatever effect the Old Woman was having on the Unit people, it affected her too as it relayed whatever magical effect the Old Woman was having on people. Remember, the curse made people abandon Ruby and since Kate and Unit could help her, the curse needed to drive them off so Ruby would be further alone. With Roger, he too was affected when Ruby got the Old Woman to stand beside him and he talked to her (remember, an aide said a few minutes before that "he still talked to everyone"). Like everyone else who talked to the Old Woman (including Josh in the inn who also didn't know Ruby), he looked at Ruby and became frightened and ran away. Whatever the Old Woman needed to do to drive him off, she apparently managed it. That fairy magic seemed to be pretty powerful

As for Marti and the implication that Roger was sexually abusing her, it seems a lot of people didn't pick up on that, though a lot did. But I think it was used to further show he was a monster and for Ruby to have to make decisions as to whether to help Marti or complete her agenda, and for awhile she chose her agenda. Then Marti gave her assurance that she needed to take out Roger before Saturday, so she did it in that moment

 

[John Potts]

OK, that was certainly creepy and kept me watching, but did feel a bit like RTD was replaying some of his old hits. Like Harold Saxon, we've got a new psychotic PM, though without any indication of how he was mind controlling everyone (he admitted on camera that he wanted to nuke Russia and... apparently that got no reaction?). The "Creepy Ghost that turns out to be friendly"(ish) has appeared on Who since at least Logopolis (1981). And the "Companion sacrifices herself (kinda) to stop the villain" was very reminiscent of Donna in Turn Left. I guess all writers repeat themselves, but it did seem a little lazy.

In these reduced seasons, I was a little surprised we needed a "Doctor Lite" episode. That said, it kept me engaged and I do like it when the Companion saves the day through their own wits, even if it took her 40 years to do it!

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, John Potts said:

In these reduced seasons, I was a little surprised we needed a "Doctor Lite" episode.

That couldn’t be helped as Ncuti was committed to finishing up his “Sex Education” series and it started filming much later than planned. As far as I know it only affected this episode and “Dot and Bubble” since they were filmed in the first block; I don’t know if the Christmas special was affected as it was in the next block

[ABay]

Does anyone know what Old Ruby was signing? The hand movement looked familiar but ASL is different from BSL.

[DoctorAtomic]

Why no opening theme?

I assume they shot this on location. Wonderful scenery. We usually don't get a Doctor Lite until later in the season, and I see this is because of the overlap with Sex Education. I didn't realize Gatwa was doing double duty. 

You'd think the amount of times the Doctor gets separated from the Companion that they'd give them a psychic paper just to give them a little help. Didn't the Doctor fix her phone in Space Babies? She couldn't try to call him?

Gibson really carried the episode well. I liked how Ruby was unraveling.

And you're always going to reel me in with a Doctor Who people in a single room/train car/pub. 

Even though it didn't work, good try with the cell phone idea. 

Also nice to see Kate. Did Ruby call her because she only said 'get in touch' and show up? I didn't realize Ruby knew of UNIT. I think it was a little much Kate got 'got' because she's more skilled than that. 

I figured when they showed Ruby's 30th birthday that we were in some Turn Left scenario and getting some kind of reset. I think we could have maybe got to the Roger ap plot a little sooner though. 

There's no way Pakistan sells their nukes. Come on. Great Britain can make tons faster. They should have said they're buying materials or something. 

Super clever though for Ruby to trap him though!

I didn't quite follow the ending on how Ruby became the old woman because she drove her own mother away. What could she have said to make everyone run away? 

On 5/25/2024 at 3:08 AM, PurpleTentacle said:

That's pretty much the only reason why they are currently building new nuclear power plants, to keep their supply of weapons grade material going.

I just have to clarify - Nuclear power plants that make electricity do not produce weapons grade material. You (US, UK, France, USSR, etc.,) build a reactor to specifically do that though, and UK can make as many as they want. Those countries are recognized as 'nuclear weapons states'. They're not buying them, and they have enough anyway. Maybe if he said enrichment equipment or something. I don't think that's too esoteric for this audience. 

On 5/26/2024 at 10:15 AM, DanaK said:

to use your imagination to think that the old lady is saying *something* bad enough or her whole existence is doing something bad enough to scare the person away and not want any contact with Ruby ever again

That's kind of having your cake though because there's no way I buy whatever was said would cause her mother to disown her. Nor the smug PM to just run away and not say anything. I take the point that anything RTD would have written her saying wouldn't live up to it, but it still does kind of matter because we're being asked as viewers to fully buy in that it just works. You need to give us glimpses. 

For example, suggesting her mom was told the only way to save Ruby is to abandon her. But when the mom is alone in the kitchen, she's hard. You'd think you'd see some anguish there. The key commonality is that the old woman says something, then they all look at Ruby, and they literally run off. I'm not trying to ruin anyone else's viewing experience, but I just need a little more to buy in. 

If you're (RTD) only saying it's some kind of 'fairy magic', then you're just saying 'a wizard did it.' If Ruby was supposed to be the angel of death, then you have to hint at that. 

I'm also not clear on how Ruby heard her the second time around. 

10 hours ago, questionfear said:

I think it's implied that no matter how close you get, you can't get a clearer vision of her unless you're interacting with her.

To be fair, the order was to apprehend her, so they did have to get that close. However, given Ruby's intel, if it's just what she said to people, then just plug your ears. Or doesn't UNIT have higher tech to detain someone? I get that they got 'got', but like it was said, Kate not taking out the earbud is making her stupid for plot. I could buy her shooting the woman before that. 

Edited May 29 by DoctorAtomic

[DanaK]

2 hours ago, ABay said:

Does anyone know what Old Ruby was signing? The hand movement looked familiar but ASL is different from BSL.

It was just movements figured out by the movement specialist for the actress so she could easily make the same movements every time. It wasn’t ASL/BSL but I don’t know if they were based on sign language

[DoctorAtomic]

That would have been better. Even if Ruby didn't figure that out, it's a tip off to the viewers. 

[tv-talk]

18 hours ago, John Potts said:

The "Creepy Ghost that turns out to be friendly"(ish) has appeared on Who since at least Logopolis (1981). And the "Companion sacrifices herself (kinda) to stop the villain" was very reminiscent of Donna in Turn Left. I guess all writers repeat themselves, but it did seem a little lazy.

Adrick died saving humanity from the Cybermen, though the dinosaurs went extinct in the process...leading to the evolution of humanity....which he had just saved. Nice bit of timey wimey writing there. Companions dying occasionally is something Who should always have.

[Affogato]

Removed by author see

Edited May 30 by Affogato

[ABay]

What I did like in this episode was seeing Amol Rajan. I wonder if he'll still be hosting University Challenge in 2046. Paxman was on there forever.

Wasn't there another person playing themself?

And I like Anuerin Barnard so I'm always glad to see him even if he's a monster.

[isalicat]

23 hours ago, Affogato said:

I remember David Bowie bought a nuke and gave it to the British Government, his point being that any person with enough money could become a nuclear power. Maybe he was buying on behalf of his political party. Or himself. Because the main governmen t didn’t have enough. 

I just googled this and can't find any evidence that this is true...I would be very interested to learn more about this as I am under the impression that a private citizen could not possibly obtain an actual nuclear bomb (and I think it is against the law in the U.S. and Britain to possess fissionable materials even).