S07.E05: Who At Peace

[KaveDweller]

21 hours ago, PurpleTentacle said:

I'm going to give the show the benefit of the doubt and say that Noah Galvin probably got a new role that depended on him leaving the show early, since this is the last season anyway.

I read an interview with the showrunner that he did ask to leave the show. It sounds like he was ready to move on and was tired of being in Vancouver away from his loved ones. It wasn't clear if they knew it was the final season when that decision was made, but I would guess so, otherwise why not just stick out the last few episodes?

[bros402]

19 hours ago, circumvent said:

For a show with only a few episodes left, why so much overdramatic moments, like a murder? Why can't they just make Shaun and Charlie evolve in their relationship instead of all the set backs? A slow development and many set backs might be more realistic but there isn't enough time and they will obviously make it all good and perfect in the end, so just evolve, writers!

Honestly, it feels like a script left over from before they learned that this was going to be the final season. I remember reading something where someone involved was quoted as saying "I wish we had a full 22 episode season to bring this show to an end, but we're only getting 10." So I am guessing that they didn't write/film at least part of the season with the end in mind - so I wish that they had just removed the death (even if the actor wanted to leave - just write him off as being on a honeymoon and have him come back for a quick Zoom-ing in in the finale if they really needed him).

They also should've had the Charlie complaint earlier to make the plot feel like it can actually wrap up without being put into hyperdrive. They should be using this plot to demonstrate that Shaun has actually had growth as an adult, instead they are just showing that he is the same recalcitrant guy we met in the earlier seasons (well, it depends on who is writing the episode). They could even be like "oh look at his inspirational he is, teaching a new Good Doctor With Autism how to doctor. Sure, they have some bumps, but he is learning and being So Inspirational!"

[Fable]

I've been watching this season but not really commenting due to boredom, but this episode ending hurt!  Ouch!  

[Madding crowd]

I don’t understand why they had to kill off Asher. It’s the final season and he could have gone off on a honeymoon. As for the rest: Dr’s no longer recommend letting babies cry themselves to sleep. You don’t have to jump at every noise but letting a baby cry for long periods teaches them no one will come for them if they need help.

I agree Shaun should be more patient but Charlie should not have rearranged the tray or started blabbing during a crisis point in the surgery. She almost seems to be trying to upset Shaun. Can’t they just give her to someone else. I didn’t particularly like the story about the obese girl either. Not all fat people think about food all the time and not all overweight people have fatty liver disease to the point of needing a transplant , especially a teenager.

Edited April 6 by Madding crowd

[TVForever]

Oh gosh. As soon as Asher took that pause, and then (confidently?) declared his faith and his sexuality, I got a bad feeling. And it still hurt to watch. And then watching Jerome waiting for him in the restaurant; it was almost too much. 

[A.Ham]

12 hours ago, TVForever said:

Oh gosh. As soon as Asher took that pause, and then (confidently?) declared his faith and his sexuality, I got a bad feeling. And it still hurt to watch. And then watching Jerome waiting for him in the restaurant; it was almost too much. 

Yup, me too. I thought "you're not actually going to believe they're going to go away so quietly". They had already started with vandalism. Time to call the police just for that.

[gail56]

I also want to say the Charlie character really bothers me as well. The episode where she said something like they have to accommodate her communication style, is so NO. Not when that style is rude or hurtful.

I am an autistic person and have gone through my early life unintentionally upsetting people with my words or behavior. [I am 67 now.]  I would ask what did I say what was rude, and why? What did I do that was wrong? Some people I would ask that of thought I was putting them  on and tell me that I was too smart to be that stupid and I was doing/saying things on purpose to rile them up. Others would explain it to me.

I learned from these things. If I learn that something is rude to say, I won't say it. If something is rude to do in public, again, I won't do it!  I learned that you don't ask certain things, like Charlie asking about people's sex lives. I would just need to be told once it was inappropriate and why [understanding WHY is the big part] and never do it again. For instance, once I learned that picking my nose in public grossed people out, I now only do it in private. Things like that.

One accommodation that I do ask people is to give me the benefit of the doubt when interacting with me. Like asking me my motivations before thinking I am just being a jerk. Or understanding my limitations. Things that I really cannot do that other people can and I am not just being lazy or not trying hard enough.

 

 

 

 

[jacourt]

I have always thought that an autistic person may need to be taught the socially correct interactions because they don’t read social cues. If I remember correctly glassman and Shaun had many conversations about the how and why of interacting. Charlie just wants to be who she is and everyone else has to accept it. When she is corrected or told what she did improperly she argues. I hope they can get through to her. 

[psychfan]

On 4/2/2024 at 11:01 PM, Annber03 said:

 

(That song playing at the end. I've heard that somewhere else. I'm going to have to look that up now.)

I hadn’t heard that song before this show, and am glad to have now. But the words were instantly recognizable as based on Unetaneh Tokef, which is part of the high holy days liturgy. Which I thought really added to that scene. (Although otherwise I hate that that happened and I really wish they let them live happily ever after. Yes, hate crimes exist, and are particularly increasing right now. But still. They didn’t need to kill him.)

[Calvada]

On 4/3/2024 at 7:41 PM, The Wild Sow said:

Now I'm wondering how Scott immersed in the mikvah when he was just post-op from hip surgery!  I mean, he'd have an incision, stitches, a dressing.... (he shouldn't have anything between his body and the water.)   

I couldn't believe how easily he stepped down into the pool.  And how did Ronit walk so effortlessly just after having abdominal surgery?  And in heels?  Even if the surgery was laparoscopic, that would have hurt. 

I'm wondering what is the basis of the complaint that Charlie filed.  IMO Shaun was right to order her out of the OR.  If I'm the patient on that table in some distress as indicated by all the alarms going, I do not want a medical student taking any action such as moving instruments around, or trying to justify a mistake that has caused the surgeon delays, or constantly talking when the surgeon has asked her to stop. Was that a nurse that Shaun said something to, about letting Charlie reorganize the surgical tray?  Why would any surgical nurse listen to a medical student and change things from the way the surgeon wants them?  I don't understand why any med student would interject their thoughts and opinions, whether it's when assessing a new patient, when treatment options are proposed to a patient, or during a surgery.  I've been a patient several times at a teaching hospital/clinic when I have been asked if it is OK if a medical student is present (and I have always said yes, because otherwise how do they learn?) but there's never been a situation where that medical student has piped up or interrupted a doctor.  If there was, I would expect the doctor to ask them to leave the room!  Why don't Lim and Glassman assign Charlie to another surgeon?  They should each be asking themselves how they would react if a medical student took it upon themselves to re-organize the surgical instruments when they were operating.

What happened to Asher is so sad, because he was one of my favorite characters on the show, and because it is too true to life with the ever-rising rate of antisemitic and other hate crimes.  Why would Asher and the rabbi not call 911?  With the horrific crimes that have been committed at places of worship in recent years?  Why would Asher have walked away, leaving the rabbi alone, just assuming the creeps had left and all danger was gone?  

[bros402]

10 hours ago, jacourt said:

I have always thought that an autistic person may need to be taught the socially correct interactions because they don’t read social cues. If I remember correctly glassman and Shaun had many conversations about the how and why of interacting. Charlie just wants to be who she is and everyone else has to accept it. When she is corrected or told what she did improperly she argues. I hope they can get through to her. 

It depends on the autistic person - sometimes they need to be taught the interaction, sometimes they need to learn the cues. It varies person by person. I don't see some of Charlie's interactions as arguing - I see them as her stating what is going on from her point of view. From teacher's point of view, Shaun should take the time to listen to her (when it is a non-emergency situation, obviously), analyze the situation, and figure out how things can be presented to Charlie (within reason, obviously).

2 hours ago, Calvada said:

I'm wondering what is the basis of the complaint that Charlie filed.  IMO Shaun was right to order her out of the OR.  If I'm the patient on that table in some distress as indicated by all the alarms going, I do not want a medical student taking any action such as moving instruments around, or trying to justify a mistake that has caused the surgeon delays, or constantly talking when the surgeon has asked her to stop. Was that a nurse that Shaun said something to, about letting Charlie reorganize the surgical tray?  Why would any surgical nurse listen to a medical student and change things from the way the surgeon wants them?  I don't understand why any med student would interject their thoughts and opinions, whether it's when assessing a new patient, when treatment options are proposed to a patient, or during a surgery.  I've been a patient several times at a teaching hospital/clinic when I have been asked if it is OK if a medical student is present (and I have always said yes, because otherwise how do they learn?) but there's never been a situation where that medical student has piped up or interrupted a doctor.  If there was, I would expect the doctor to ask them to leave the room!  Why don't Lim and Glassman assign Charlie to another surgeon?  They should each be asking themselves how they would react if a medical student took it upon themselves to re-organize the surgical instruments when they were operating.

I hope that Charlie's complaint isn't based on her actions in the OR because that was one of the times Shaun was actually justified in his actions. I am hoping it is more on his actions towards her in general, such as telling her to not talk to him - when she needs to do that in order to learn. 

It is always interesting to have med students in the exam room. One time the doctor brought in a gaggle of like... 6-8 people with her? I think they were med students, at least. They were asking me questions during the exam (when I gave them permission to), when it wouldn't interfere with what the doctor was doing. So sometimes med students do pipe up during an exam.

[circumvent]

6 hours ago, Calvada said:

I'm wondering what is the basis of the complaint that Charlie filed. 

Yes, I am curious too.

And I am curious about the reaction Lim and Glassman will have. It is like they wanted to "pair" Charlie and Shaun to "help" Shaun evolve. But that's a little infantilizing because Shaun could be a teacher to another student. It all goes back to the overwriting on unnecessary drama in a very short season. All will end well in a most unrealistic way

[bros402]

19 hours ago, circumvent said:

Yes, I am curious too.

And I am curious about the reaction Lim and Glassman will have. It is like they wanted to "pair" Charlie and Shaun to "help" Shaun evolve. But that's a little infantilizing because Shaun could be a teacher to another student. It all goes back to the overwriting on unnecessary drama in a very short season. All will end well in a most unrealistic way

tbh I wish they had gotten a full season - or at least a 13-16 episode season, since 10 episodes just isn't enough for a network drama to do a story without it feeling really rushed.

I hope Glassman's response is different from what it would've been for season 1/2 Glassman, now that he and Shaun have had ups and (recent) downs in their relationship.

And I hope the complaint is about anything other than Charlie being kicked out of the ER (also, did anyone else notice that Shaun's mask wasn't on tight enough? He was fogging up his glasses)

[MaryHedwig]

2 hours ago, bros402 said:

And I hope the complaint is about anything other than Charlie being kicked out of the ER (also, did anyone else notice that Shaun's mask wasn't on tight enough? He was fogging up his glasses)

I did, but I think, for dramatic purposes, they were trying to attribute his fogged googles to Shaun's rage at Charlie. I worried that he did the rest of the surgery without googles. 

Along the same lines, Charlie should not have taken off her mask until she had left the room entirely. She contaminated the room. Again, I think for dramatic purposes they broke protocol so they could get a full picture of Charlie's angry/bewildered face. 

[possibilities]

11 hours ago, bros402 said:

did anyone else notice that Shaun's mask wasn't on tight enough? He was fogging up his glasses)

I did notice that! And they seemed to be doing it on purpose for some reason, since it was easily corrected and/or edited out if they didn't want it there. Weird!

I was also bothered by the unmasking.

Both of them are behaving badly, and the worst part is that people writing it don't suffer the consequences of bad messaging. This kind of thing only really has implications for people who are being slandered symbolically and that crap impacts how people IRL are viewed, unfairly.

Folks say they realize it's fiction, but IRL a lot of people do in fact get a lot of their ideas from the scant representations they find in fiction, and it does reverberate into how they treat others IRL.

[circumvent]

9 hours ago, MaryHedwig said:

Along the same lines, Charlie should not have taken off her mask until she had left the room entirely. She contaminated the room.

I don't think that's the main reason for medical prfessionals wearing masks. Surgical masks are to protect doctors from getting bodily fluids on them. We do know that those masks don't protect against airborne viruses for example.

I think in some situations, like burn victims, the doctors and nurses need to suit up to protect the patient

In my recent surgery, on my hand, only one person had the mask on when i arrived in the OR. One of the nurses and another person were unmasked at that point

[JH Lipton]

On 4/3/2024 at 7:21 PM, possibilities said:

'm still up set that they invoked the "Bury The Gays" trope. It's just torture porn at this point. I hate it.
 

I did enjoy the Rabbi. As a Jewish lesbian, it's never really been a hardship for me to relate to Judaism, but there are a lot of different braches of the culture and the faith, and certainly the Hasids are not famous for being friendly to us. But, honestly, if Asher looked even a tiny little bit, he would have found friendly Jewish congregations easily-- they exist in many places, and surely in the city/state where the show is set. 

it's set in San Jose, California, which is a minute away from gay-as-hell San Francisco, so finding a LGBTQ+ synagogue would be easy.

On 4/4/2024 at 1:53 PM, tennisgurl said:

https://www.thewrap.com/the-good-doctor-asher-death-season-7-episode-5-explained/

I found this interview about the choice to kill off Asher and while I get that the actor was ready to go, it really sucks that they decided to have him get murdered instead of giving him his happily ever after with Jerome.

Quote

Weissman also acknowledged that the writers’ room was “conscious” about the show falling into the “bury your gays” trope of killing off queer characters for the sake of tragedy. Additionally, he praised showrunner Liz Friedman — who he noted is herself a member of the LGBTQ community — for guiding the writers through crafting the emotional hour.

"We're conscious of the 'Bury Your Gays' trope; we just don't give a crap.  And our token LGBTQ+ showrunner was told by  management to give us an an OK!"

[bros402]

21 hours ago, MaryHedwig said:

I did, but I think, for dramatic purposes, they were trying to attribute his fogged googles to Shaun's rage at Charlie. I worried that he did the rest of the surgery without googles. 

Along the same lines, Charlie should not have taken off her mask until she had left the room entirely. She contaminated the room. Again, I think for dramatic purposes they broke protocol so they could get a full picture of Charlie's angry/bewildered face. 

11 hours ago, possibilities said:

I did notice that! And they seemed to be doing it on purpose for some reason, since it was easily corrected and/or edited out if they didn't want it there. Weird!

I was also bothered by the unmasking.

Both of them are behaving badly, and the worst part is that people writing it don't suffer the consequences of bad messaging. This kind of thing only really has implications for people who are being slandered symbolically and that crap impacts how people IRL are viewed, unfairly.

Folks say they realize it's fiction, but IRL a lot of people do in fact get a lot of their ideas from the scant representations they find in fiction, and it does reverberate into how they treat others IRL.

good, so others noticed it!

I wish that they had hired a decent autism consultant for this season - since I could see this plotline being done somewhat decently with these writers (especially with an autistic actress - she's doing the best she can with the bad material). I just hope that her being listed as a guest star doesn't mean she is going to be kicked out of the hospital.

tbh I have learned a bit about social cues from TV - mainly looking at the exaggerated facial expressions some shows use, along with tone of voice (and reactions of characters to certain situations). Since I wasn't diagnosed until I was 20, I didn't have anything like social skills groups (because as we all know, autism goes away when you are 18) - so I learned through examples in the media. Obviously I don't base my responses to things on tropes used in the media, how people express themselves facially and vocally in media is what I sort of learned.

[CarpeFelis]

I’m pissed that they killed Asher. WHY?! FFS, it was bad enough they killed Melendez, did they really have to kill another fan favorite character?

(ETA: Do the writers think this makes them edgy or something? It doesn’t. It makes them annoying assholes.)

Charlie was back to being a pain in the butt this week. She needs to learn her place. She’s a med student but she argues like she’s an attending whose opinion should carry a lot of weight. It doesn’t. And why are Lim and Glassman so adamant about having Shaun work with her? That seems like it’s just a plot contrivance.

What is this BS about letting poor little Steve cry his lungs out every night? He’s too little to “learn” that crying will get attention just for the sake of attention. (Reminds me of my Evil Starter Husband who insisted that our daughter’s crying was manipulative. She was 3-4 months old, FFS!)

And I was annoyed that Lim’s mom felt the need to apologize to her for dating Glassman. She’s an adult. Just because she’s someone’s mother, that doesn’t mean she owes her ADULT child an explanation or apology for living her own damn life! The only thing she should have been apologizing for was oversharing about sex. Nobody needed to hear that.

Edited April 9 by CarpeFelis

[Daff]

14 hours ago, bros402 said:

wish that they had hired a decent autism consultant for this season - since I could see this plotline being done somewhat decently with these writers (especially with an autistic actress - she's doing the best she can with the bad material).

I also really like your final paragraph. It really irks me that in this example of a poor teacher-student pairing, the writers keep insisting that Charlie’s socially unacceptable responses to criticism are immediately used by her as an accusation that the critique violates her ADA rights. That is, she seems to claim that the criticism is unwarranted “punishment” for her disabilities (autism, ADHD, impulsivity) rather than an attempt to encourage more appropriate responses. Whenever she does this with the other teachers, they ignore, rather than exacerbate the exchange. It’s almost as if Charlie feeds on bringing Shawn to his breaking point. Moreover, the writers really seem to tone down her aggressively confrontational communication style when she’s interacting with the others. Hence, when Shawn seeks help, they seem to think he’s over reacting. As someone above mentioned, yes, Charlie is exceptionally intelligent and qualified to her level academically, there’s not the ability to (silently) visualize the problem and solution. The gap in her communication skill is seriously impeding her ability to progress in this setting. Basic conversational turn-taking should not be something they need to teach her in a surgical setting. She really needs to work with a counselor and an SLP before she can take advantage of her wonderful placement at this hospital.

[possibilities]

I also notice that when Shaun told her to study on her own one time, she said she can't learn from written material. But since then she has been reading studies and going rogue implementing their ideas (like with the surgical tray) and suggesting things she learned from them (during the diagnostic and treatment discussions). The writing is extremely inconsistent.

 

[bros402]

9 hours ago, Daff said:

I also really like your final paragraph. It really irks me that in this example of a poor teacher-student pairing, the writers keep insisting that Charlie’s socially unacceptable responses to criticism are immediately used by her as an accusation that the critique violates her ADA rights. That is, she seems to claim that the criticism is unwarranted “punishment” for her disabilities (autism, ADHD, impulsivity) rather than an attempt to encourage more appropriate responses. Whenever she does this with the other teachers, they ignore, rather than exacerbate the exchange. It’s almost as if Charlie feeds on bringing Shawn to his breaking point. Moreover, the writers really seem to tone down her aggressively confrontational communication style when she’s interacting with the others. Hence, when Shawn seeks help, they seem to think he’s over reacting. As someone above mentioned, yes, Charlie is exceptionally intelligent and qualified to her level academically, there’s not the ability to (silently) visualize the problem and solution. The gap in her communication skill is seriously impeding her ability to progress in this setting. Basic conversational turn-taking should not be something they need to teach her in a surgical setting. She really needs to work with a counselor and an SLP before she can take advantage of her wonderful placement at this hospital.

tbh it sort of seemed like the writers were trying to show that two autistics cannot work together for some reason. 

It sort of reminds me of her last show (don't jump down my throat, let me finish my sentence!) Everything's Gonna Be Okay, where the goal of the writers (per Lillian Carrier, who played Drea on that show) was to have Kayla Cromer's character say nice things that came out rude...but one this, they just have her say rude things that come out rude.

I'll comment more on this in the topic for S7E6, though.

8 hours ago, possibilities said:

I also notice that when Shaun told her to study on her own one time, she said she can't learn from written material. But since then she has been reading studies and going rogue implementing their ideas (like with the surgical tray) and suggesting things she learned from them (during the diagnostic and treatment discussions). The writing is extremely inconsistent.

 

I took her rearranging things are her learning kinesthetically.... which she should be doing in the practice lab or w/e it was that was mentioned at some point. She might have learned the things through lectures/text to speech (I know that hen I was in college, if I sat in the same seat for the test that I was in during the lecture, I could pretty much recall the lecture - I couldn't study the notes or the text, I would get too much anxiety). This is another reason why we needed a longer season - they're doing this plot on lightspeed.

[Daff]

3 hours ago, bros402 said:

rude things that come out rude.

Good point. When Shawn says rude things, he always uses a sweet, sing-song tone and a smile that seems to convey: “I’m only stating the truth.”

[Ancaster]

On 4/3/2024 at 5:58 PM, MaryHedwig said:

Plus, was he naked in front of everyone? I saw no attempts to cover him with a towel until he entered the mikvah for modesty. Loved the image of the ice shooting into the (I hope) hot water.

The editing was really choppy in this.  They obviously have someone writing/consulting who is very familiar with Orthodox Judaism, but no, he wouldn't have entered the "mikvah" naked in front of women.  They had the conversion ceremony there with everyone for some reason, but the women would have left before the actual dumking.

Having the ice during the dunking was weird, as the mikvah should have been made "kosher" beforehand.  (There's also more to it than this, but I won't bore you!)

Just one more thing, because I found it funny - the rabbi mentioned something about the mikvah being the biggest deal for most male converts.  I'm pretty sure the biggest deal is the circumcision - ritual only (drawing a drop of blood) for most North Americans because they're already circumcised, but still terrifying to some, and a much bigger deal to their non-circumcised international buddies.

Edited April 20 by Ancaster
Dunking not dumping!

[MaryHedwig]

1 hour ago, Ancaster said:

Having the ice during the dunking was weird, as the mikvah should have been made "kosher" beforehand.  (There's also more to it than this, but I won't bore you!)

I am not bored at all, I am fascinated. Don't you need three rabbis present for the conversion?

[Ancaster]

21 hours ago, MaryHedwig said:

I am not bored at all, I am fascinated. Don't you need three rabbis present for the conversion?

I sent you a PM so as not to get too off topic!

[chitowngirl]

3 hours ago, Ancaster said:

I sent you a PM so as not to get too off topic!

Could you put the info in Small Talk?  I’m interested too!

[Ancaster]

11 hours ago, chitowngirl said:

Could you put the info in Small Talk?  I’m interested too!

Hi @chitowngirl

I'll PM you what I sent too since I'm not an authority and don't want to present myself as such by posting in Small Talk.

Here's a link to an article from Aish.com about mikvah and conversion that you might find interesting.  Please note that it is information that would not apply  to all conversions - as you know, levels of observance vary widely.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/what-happens-on-the-day-of-conversion/

Mods: please remove if this is too far off topic.

Edited April 21 by Ancaster

[bros402]

10 hours ago, Ancaster said:

Hi @chitowngirl

I'll PM you what I sent too since I'm not an authority and don't want to present myself as such by posting in Small Talk.

Here's a link to an article from Aish.com about mikvah and conversion that you might find interesting.  Please note that it is information that would not apply  to all conversions - as you know, levels of observance vary widely.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/what-happens-on-the-day-of-conversion/

Mods: please remove if this is too far off topic/

Small talk is for any small talk - personally I think it would be relevant there.