S01.E01: Anjin

[DanaK]

Quote

2/27/2024 10 p.m. ET/PT

Destinies converge in Japan after a barbarian ship washes ashore in a poor fishing village. Meanwhile, in Osaka, Lord Toranaga finds himself outplayed by his enemies. Written by Rachel Kondo & Justin Marks; Directed by Jonathan van Tulleken.

 

[Puffaroo]

Okay, I remember the original Shogun, also read the book.

I don't remember either being this dark and dismal.

[mledawn]

It’s been over a decade since I last read the book but I don’t remember Fuji being introduced so early or that her timeline overlapped this way. Might be just how they are getting all the stories into the miniseries because the book is so massive. 
 

I do like how they haven’t dwelled on the sailors and moved that chunk of plot along quickly

[DoctorAtomic]

I was little when the original aired. I know I watched with my parents, but I don't remember anything. It was the time of all the big miniseries events!

I liked that the Japanese characters actually spoke Japanese and not English all the time. I don't have any problem with subtitles. I guess they couldn't speak in Portuguese too. 

I'm not sure the best diplomatic move for Pilot John was to get into a religious spat, but "I don't have time for Christian nonsense" seems to have worked. I would have thought Pilot John would have been more interested in this mysterious Japan when they finally brought him up out of the pit. 

I probably would have not yammered so much about savages and maybe tried to pick up on some words and phrases too. 

I'm watching on Hulu. Did FX show boob?

There's a lot of heavy lifting for any show to do in the first episode, but they kept it moving for me. I didn't feel like it dragged.

So many characters though. I still can't name 80% of the characters on Game of Thrones. 

Hard to steer wrong with a show that has Nestor Carbonell on an island could be good.  

Edited February 28 by DoctorAtomic

[Raja]

I wasn't little the last time this miniseries came to US network TV but I  can only remember scenes here and there but not the story. This time around I'm going in with some historical knowledge of that era.

[magdalene]

Promising start. I was a child when the old mini-series was airing and I remember loving it and learning some Japanese watching it. Looking back on it it seems quite soap opera like. I also read the novel later on which was quite brutal in parts.

This new version is more sophisticated and it can obviously be more through the Japanese gaze now.

[aghst]

I was a kid when I read the novel and don't recall the mini-series at all.

I think there wasn't so much emphasis on the differences between the English/Dutch vs. the Spanish/Portuguese in the book at all.  It was more from Blackthorne and Mariko's POVs.  Also some by some peasants.

The Hulu description says it's set in 1600?  So 12 years after the Spanish Armada?  If England lost that battle, it would likely have fallen.

So there has to be quite a bit of antagonism between the English and the Spanish.

But I remember the Rodrigues character calling Blackthorne Ingles all the time.

Obviously, the European nations were seeking wealth, competing for trade with the Far East.  Though realistically, what did this expedition expect, the Portuguese were well-established there.  Even if they made it with 5 ships and full crews, would they be in a position to battle the Portuguese and the Japanese?  By then they'd be low on ammo and provisions.

Also don't recall as much palace intrigue between Toronaga vs. Ishido and the others.  Some reviewers compared this to Game of Thrones a bit.  Well the credit sequence which they show at the start of the second episode is kind of like the GoT opening too, a top down view of this world.

[Haleth]

Same here.  I watched the original miniseries and read the book decades ago so I remember little except both were fantastic.  This one probably is closer to the book since television has changed so much in the meantime.  More brutally real.  I do remember the antagonism between Blackthorne and the Portuguese and I do remember some of the Japanese politics.  Whew, you really have to pay attention to who is on what side.  I imagine many viewers are really confused by all the names in the first episode.  

9 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Hard to steer wrong with a show that has Nestor Carbonell on an island could be good.  

Omigosh, I had no idea that was Nestor Carbonell!  Guess it's been a while since I last saw him on an island.  (Or Hiroyuki Sanada for that matter.)

Edited February 28 by Haleth

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

Whew, you really have to pay attention to who is on what side.  I imagine many viewers are really confused by all the names in the first episode.

Being historical fiction it took me a minute to figure out which names were changed. For me it is a lot different than Richard Chamberlain running across different customs which is all that I remember from watching the previous series live.

[DoctorAtomic]

Richard Chamberlain was king of the 80s miniseries!

iirc the original miniseries was on everyday for only a week, so there was far less TV time than here to really get into it. My parents had the paperback and you could knock someone out with it. I imagine there's tons more we'll see here. 

[Raja]

On 2/27/2024 at 11:30 PM, aghst said:

The Hulu description says it's set in 1600?  So 12 years after the Spanish Armada?  If England lost that battle, it would likely have fallen.

So there has to be quite a bit of antagonism between the English and the Spanish.

But I remember the Rodrigues character calling Blackthorne Ingles all the time.

Obviously, the European nations were seeking wealth, competing for trade with the Far East.  Though realistically, what did this expedition expect, the Portuguese were well-established there.  Even if they made it with 5 ships and full crews, would they be in a position to battle the Portuguese and the Japanese?  By then they'd be low on ammo and provisions.

I would dare say 1600 for Japan, and this story, is even more of a touchpoint than the Catholic/Protestant wars in Europe. Even if that war overseas was the initiating event. Spoiler Alert, one more big battle until Tom Cruise arrives a little more than 250 years later 😉

Without today's communication a well armed squadron, if it had arrived intact, could have gotten local  superiority long enough to open an English alternate trading relationship. Or so was the mission

Edited February 29 by Raja

[tennisgurl]

This was a really interesting start, although I know its going to take awhile for me to learn who everyone is, who is allied or related to who, but so far the acting is strong enough that I think I'll get there. Its pretty brutal so far, and having some idea what happens next its just going to get worse. 

Seeing so many perspectives is interesting, if also pretty exhausting. Glad to see that the annoying tradition of "I clearly know you cant understand my language so I am going to keep yelling until you magically do" has a long history across cultures. Also, I know that this is a particularly nasty time in the Catholics VS Protestants conflicts in Europe, but it seems pretty stupid to immediately start antagonizing one of the first people you've met who can speak your language and is standing between you and the angry guys with swords. Maybe "fuck you and your god" wasn't the best tact to take? 

I'm glad they're having the Japanese characters speak actual Japanese instead of having them speak English with an accent, it seems like the language barrier is going to be a whole thing going forward. 

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Maybe "fuck you and your god" wasn't the best tact to take? 

No it wasn't, but I don't think it's unreasonable to question whether that particular priest translating wasn't going to translate in good faith. Blackthorne was correct; he wasn't. How else is he going to get that point across but to yell and carry on?

I don't think leading with all the hostility was a smart move anyway though. Buy yourself another minute. Then another. Then another. "Father, let me explain to you what happened here; this is a huge misunderstanding." Blackthorne's cover story wasn't bad, and he could have sold it to the priest. The the state of the ship and crew, seen by all, is easy evidence. 

The Japanese vassal, who is becoming my favorite, quickly picked up on the friction and basically put the entire scene to rest and moved on with the brilliant 'Christian nonsense' line. He wanted the ship cannon. The priest yammering on and on that Blackthorne was a pirate was largely irrelevant. Look at them. What could they actually do at that point? Ok, you washed up here or you're pirates. Well, you're all captives now, and I own your ship. 

Edited February 29 by DoctorAtomic

[mojoween]

On 2/27/2024 at 10:17 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I’m watching on Hulu. Did FX show boob?

No.  We saw English ass but not courtesan boob.

[Raja]

6 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

No it wasn't, but I don't think it's unreasonable to question whether that particular priest translating wasn't going to translate in good faith. Blackthorne was correct; he wasn't. How else is he going to get that point across but to yell and carry on?

I don't think leading with all the hostility was a smart move anyway though. Buy yourself another minute. Then another. Then another. "Father, let me explain to you what happened here; this is a huge misunderstanding." Blackthorne's cover story wasn't bad, and he could have sold it to the priest. The the state of the ship and crew, seen by all, is easy evidence. 

The Japanese vassal, who is becoming my favorite, quickly picked up on the friction and basically put the entire scene to rest and moved on with the brilliant 'Christian nonsense' line. He wanted the ship cannon. The priest yammering on and on that Blackthorne was a pirate was largely irrelevant. Look at them. What could they actually do at that point? Ok, you washed up here or you're pirates. Well, you're all captives now, and I own your ship. 

I would think of pirates as sea bandits there would be an immediate execution, with the clergy saying to themselves that I didn't do it by my hand. As a sailor in an armed merchantman for the Dutch, who they didn't know about yet, a possible hostage. And  someone up the line started asking about and thus they lost total control of the information flow.

[Rickster]

Saw the first two episodes tonight and am confused on the translating. Are we to assume all the English we are hearing is actually Blackthorne speaking Portuguese to the translators (and they to him)? For example, we have no indication that the Japanese woman speaks English yet she is his translator.

 

[Raja]

32 minutes ago, Rickster said:

Saw the first two episodes tonight and am confused on the translating. Are we to assume all the English we are hearing is actually Blackthorne speaking Portuguese to the translators (and they to him)? For example, we have no indication that the Japanese woman speaks English yet she is his translator.

 

Yes we are hearing English instead of subtitling the entire show, while the those, besides the priest for whom Portuguese is presumably their native language those talking  to Blackthorne are using Portuguese a second language they share in common. 

I could speculate that maybe the Spanish pilot Rodriguez could speak  English or maybe Spanish. If a Priest did speak in English the Japanese would rightly suspect that they are hiding something.

Edited March 1 by Raja

[Rickster]

6 hours ago, Raja said:

Yes we are hearing English instead of subtitling the entire show, while the those, besides the priest for whom Portuguese is presumably their native language those talking  to Blackthorne are using Portuguese a second language they share in common. 

I could speculate that maybe the Spanish pilot Rodriguez could speak  English or maybe Spanish. If a Priest did speak in English the Japanese would rightly suspect that they are hiding something.

I find it odd that Blackthorne would be fluent in Portuguese, or at least I would have appreciated a line or two establishing the fact somewhere in the episode.

 

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Rickster said:

I find it odd that Blackthorne would be fluent in Portuguese, or at least I would have appreciated a line or two establishing the fact somewhere in the episode.

 

Not really odd when Anjin was a high ranking officer, not an indentured deckhand, in a squadron whose mission was to get into places that the Spanish and Portuguese already held sway to get people in those markets talking and trading with the Dutch.

 

[mledawn]

There is an official show podcast that is available after each episode. In that podcast they talk about how for simplicity with the show we must assume they're speaking Portuguese for the most part but that Blackthorne does speak Spanish and Dutch as he was on a Dutch ship.

It's extremely difficult to put everything in the book into the show but I agree that even an offhand remark about his multilingualism probably would have helped. His ability to speak many languages is important to the plot.

[Haleth]

He did say he was fluent in Portuguese.  I didn’t think it was strange that he’d know enough Portuguese (and Spanish and Dutch) to converse in his travels. 

[aghst]

Maybe in the early 17th century, Spanish and Portuguese were more widely spoken than English.

Spain certainly was far ahead of England and the Northern European nations in colonization so for navigators, they'd learn Spanish?

[magdalene]

On 3/1/2024 at 3:02 AM, Rickster said:

find it odd that Blackthorne would be fluent in Portuguese, or at least I would have appreciated a line or two establishing the fact somewhere in the episode

Portugal was a world power then so it wouldn't be so odd that an educated navigator would speak their language.

So, the difference between a pirate and a privateer is that the privateer is officially sanctioned by their government? How convenient.

[Raja]

11 minutes ago, magdalene said:

So, the difference between a pirate and a privateer is that the privateer is officially sanctioned by their government? How convenient.

Even more convenient, it doesn't have to be their government but rather just a government. 

[Constantinople]

Tadayoshi has to kill himself and his son for speaking out of turn at the Regents meeting?

I must have skipped over that part of Robert's Rules of Order.

[Raja]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Tadayoshi has to kill himself and his son for speaking out of turn at the Regents meeting?

I must have skipped over that part of Robert's Rules of Order.

Time to learn Japanese court rules Ainjin 😉. With great power comes greater responsibility to paraphrase Uncle Ben. Without it and thus proof that Lord Toronaga has control over his vassals the other Regents may have more ammunition to move against him with their impeachment attempt sooner and break up disarm the entire clan, if not order their mass suicide to prevent more Ronin/bandits on the streets.

[DoctorAtomic]

Blackthorne said he had a 'letter of marque'. That's the official government document that let's you be a 'privateer'. Otherwise, you're just a pirate. 

 

[aghst]

13 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Blackthorne said he had a 'letter of marque'. That's the official government document that let's you be a 'privateer'. Otherwise, you're just a pirate. 

 

Who was financing these voyages?  They had ships, dozens or hundreds of crew and provisions and ammo for intercontinental expeditions, with uncertain outcomes.

Would it be a private company like the Dutch India Company?

Or would it be the crown, as in the case of Columbus getting financial and political backing from Ferdinand and Isabella?

It was a risky mission so which entity can and would be willing to risk the resources?

[DoctorAtomic]

It would be the Crown/government because the letter allows you to cross international borders. The Crown would use the privateers like Blackwater to subcontract out without having to formally declare war. 

[Black Knight]

On 2/27/2024 at 3:27 AM, Puffaroo said:

Okay, I remember the original Shogun, also read the book.

I don't remember either being this dark and dismal.

I don't remember the first Shogun adaptation apart from a few scenes, but I do remember the book and it certainly starts off pretty bleak. Yabu boiling one of the crew alive while everyone around can hear the screams, yeeeeeesh.

[aghst]

I remember enjoying the book.  I also read Tai Pan and maybe some other Clavell books.

I have very little recollection of the mini series though.  I remember Chamberlain and also that Mifune was a big deal casting-wise.

I wonder how it would hold up to watch after almost 40 years!

[Constantinople]

On 3/2/2024 at 9:43 PM, Raja said:

Time to learn Japanese court rules Ainjin 😉. With great power comes greater responsibility to paraphrase Uncle Ben. Without it and thus proof that Lord Toronaga has control over his vassals the other Regents may have more ammunition to move against him with their impeachment attempt sooner and break up disarm the entire clan, if not order their mass suicide to prevent more Ronin/bandits on the streets.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

[Ottis]

On 2/27/2024 at 6:27 AM, Puffaroo said:

Okay, I remember the original Shogun, also read the book.

I don't remember either being this dark and dismal.

You remember correctly. I saw the original Shogun as a teen, and was mesmerized by its spectacle. I remember Anjin as basically being shipwrecked, and finding his way in Japanese society. I don't remember grubby, scummy survivors, torture for fun and gratuitous sex. And that was just in the first 30 minutes of this new version.

That as far as I got, and I turned it off. Hey, I love anti-heroes and have watched and enjoyed all of Sopranos, Breaking Bad and True Detective. Dark with purpose is fascinating. Dark that is there to shout, "Hey, look at ME - I'm dark!" is a waste of time.

I'm out.

[KittyQ]

On 2/27/2024 at 7:17 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

Hard to steer wrong with a show that has Nestor Carbonell on an island could be good.  

I thought that was him! Those eyelashes are his trademark, although the whiskers made me wonder. 

[KittyQ]

On 2/27/2024 at 3:27 AM, Puffaroo said:

Okay, I remember the original Shogun, also read the book.

I don't remember either being this dark and dismal.

My recollection is that the situation when the sailors were captured was pretty brutal, although being on TV in the 80s, it wasn't as graphic. Blackthorne was humiliated by having someone pee on him, which made him look bad to everyone, the crew and the Japanese. They did boil someone alive, and also threatened the rest with death, while they were kept captive in that pit. Only Blackthorne was taken out and cleaned up, and if I recall correctly, that made a bit of tension between him and rest of the crew. Throughout the book and the previous miniseries, there were plenty of deaths. 

[paramitch]

I have incredibly fond memories of the original Shogun -- I was a little young for it, but my Dad, a history teacher and former US Navy officer, loved it, and he loved the way (revolutionary for the time) the Japanese POV was equally spotlighted, complete without subtitles so that we Western viewers were in the same situation as John. He also loved the miniseries' visible care for Japanese culture, and I remember how after he showed me the miniseries (it was after I graduated college, so maybe 15 years later), our whole family was really into it and we were all so tickled to feel like we were picking up the Japanese language while watching. It also held up really well -- I watched it on some streaming network within the past 5 years and still enjoyed it.

So I was excited to see this, and it certainly started off strong! Yeah, Blackthorn is an uncouth English doofus, but I love that, especially juxtaposed against the elegance (and cruelty) of the Japanese he encounters.

My favorite thing about the shows (both times) is that it spotlights English/Western arrogance. Blackthorn arrives with the standard "white man" assumptions that he is superior in every way -- and yet we see him in this new light -- as the true savage in the equation -- this dirty, unkempt, clumsy hothead in stark contrast to the elegant discipline, beauty, and centuries-old tradition of the world he has encountered.

On 3/2/2024 at 5:17 PM, magdalene said:

So, the difference between a pirate and a privateer is that the privateer is officially sanctioned by their government? How convenient.

No, there is a bigger difference than that.

When sanctioned by a governmental letter of marque, a privateer not only sails as an emissary of that government, it must also abide by those rules in terms of honor and warfare. They must abide by all the standard rules as if they themselves are a ship of that country -- they can use subterfuge at sea, but must raise their true flag before firing, they must fight fairly, and treat prisoners with  mercy and honor.

Pirates who fly the black flag give no quarter (mercy), kill without honor, and (justifiably) can be destroyed by any who encounter them.

(Sorry, I'm an Age of Sail nerd/Navy brat.)

On 3/2/2024 at 5:39 PM, Raja said:

Even more convenient, it doesn't have to be their government but rather just a government. 

True, although it is overwhelmingly a government that is either their own government or one that is allied with that government.

On 3/3/2024 at 10:19 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

Blackthorne said he had a 'letter of marque'. That's the official government document that let's you be a 'privateer'. Otherwise, you're just a pirate. 

There is a vast distance between a privateer with a letter of marque and a pirate. In fact, it was a huge issue for privateers to be seen as such and they were often quite touchy about it and the best attempted to conduct themselves with as much propriety as king's/queen's ships.

In the best privateers, the differences were negligible -- no military presence onboard (so no  small contingent of marksmen for the sea battles), no uniforms/marks of officer rank. 

On 3/3/2024 at 10:51 AM, DoctorAtomic said:

It would be the Crown/government because the letter allows you to cross international borders. The Crown would use the privateers like Blackwater to subcontract out without having to formally declare war. 

This, exactly. Blackthorn's ship is a formally hired extension of the English arm of law. He is a doofus but he is right when he considers himself a speaker for the crown.

On 3/3/2024 at 3:49 PM, Black Knight said:

I don't remember the first Shogun adaptation apart from a few scenes, but I do remember the book and it certainly starts off pretty bleak. Yabu boiling one of the crew alive while everyone around can hear the screams, yeeeeeesh.

Oh, I remember this too -- it was awful in the original, and I had no idea it would be worse here -- but there are a good 5 seconds of footage I would happily remove from my brain right now here. Oh, my God, that was brutal.

On 3/6/2024 at 4:36 AM, Ottis said:

You remember correctly. I saw the original Shogun as a teen, and was mesmerized by its spectacle. I remember Anjin as basically being shipwrecked, and finding his way in Japanese society. I don't remember grubby, scummy survivors, torture for fun and gratuitous sex. And that was just in the first 30 minutes of this new version.

Just to be fair, all of those elements were included in the original Shogun, although, granted, they were not seen quite so openly. But I have to say, I feel like overall the show is elegant and restrained. Yes, we've seen some terrible things, but they were part of the novel and original miniseries too, seen more openly now. I'm not a huge fan of graphic violence so I hope they don't go too far beyond the boiling scene because, yes, that was awful.

But I still think it is a fantastic show so far. Beautifully produced. For me, it's like you are comparing TV's "Wiseguy" (1980s) to "The Sopranos." Modern prestige TV simply allows for a larger palette. It depends on whether the show can make that an asset or not.

For me, it is doing so, so far.

On 3/9/2024 at 3:55 PM, KittyQ said:

My recollection is that the situation when the sailors were captured was pretty brutal, although being on TV in the 80s, it wasn't as graphic. Blackthorne was humiliated by having someone pee on him, which made him look bad to everyone, the crew and the Japanese. They did boil someone alive, and also threatened the rest with death, while they were kept captive in that pit. Only Blackthorne was taken out and cleaned up, and if I recall correctly, that made a bit of tension between him and rest of the crew. Throughout the book and the previous miniseries, there were plenty of deaths. 

Exactly this. I'm loving the show so far even if it intimidates me. All of this was present in the book and miniseries, just not as openly, due to the difference in what is allowed.

[ProudMary]

16 hours ago, paramitch said:

I'm not a huge fan of graphic violence so I hope they don't go too far beyond the boiling scene because, yes, that was awful.

I felt the same way after episode 1. Torturous violence makes me think hard about watching additional episodes, but I stuck with Shogun and I'm very glad I did. There is certainly graphic violence in future episodes, but nothing as disturbing as that scene.

[Tyro49]

What did they do to the baby? I know they killed it, but what did they actually do?

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Tyro49 said:

What did they do to the baby? I know they killed it, but what did they actually do?

They seem to consider the one cut beheading as the most humane way to execute and take suicides out of their misery. I would guess that the father  did it before slitting his belly