S01.E10: Love Story

[maraleia]

 

Elizabeth's actions infuriate Grant and Taylor. Carter's choice becomes one of life and death.

 

[grandemocha]

Christ, Carter is stupid as fuck. What an idiot. She will never learn. 

 

It is partly HER fault that Max got shot. Sad thing is, he's such a good guy that he'll probably forgive her stupid ass. I want consequences for this shit.

 

ETA: And every time she has to hear a hard truth, she can't handle it. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by grandemocha

[joanne3482]

Even though I knew it was coming, I still gasped when Max was shot. I LOVE Taylor finding her voice and telling Carter off. Was I the only one who recognized the 'message' Lori left for Carter was a phone number? 7 digits, what else would it be?

[ihavenoidea]

There is no way in my mind Crash can be redeemed.  No matter his background, no decent human being would just leave after doing or seeing something like that.

 

Elizabeth and Carter shared their first hug, and then Taylor shut that down right quick.

 

At least David didn't get enough screen time to be a douchebag this week.

[grandemocha]

 

There is no way in my mind Crash can be redeemed.  No matter his background, no decent human being would just leave after doing or seeing something like that.

I can't decide if I hope he goes to prison for a long time or if he offs himself. Trying to think which option would result in Carter treating him like a poor, misunderstood martyr who didn't mean to be so messed up. 

[Eri]

Was anyone else extremely annoyed that she was even going to Bird to try and reach Crash? Two people who claim to "care" about her screw her over in two episodes and they're the same ones she'd run to when she can't handle things. Does she even have a brain anymore? Trying to convince him to turn himself in? Your best friend is in critical condition for pete's sake so to hell with him at this point I say.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Eri

[dohe]

Christ, Carter is stupid as fuck. What an idiot. She will never learn. 

 

It is partly HER fault that Max got shot. Sad thing is, he's such a good guy that he'll probably forgive her stupid ass. I want consequences for this shit.

 

ETA: And every time she has to hear a hard truth, she can't handle it. 

How exactly is it her fault?  Or are you of the belief that a person is immediately responsible if their boyfriend/girlfriend commits a crime in which they are definitely not an accessory.  Now if Carter said to Crash lets go in and rob Max you would have a point.   If Carter went along with Crash in any way when he pulled that gun out you would have a point.  But that didn't happen did it?  Time for rationalization why it is her fault of course.

 

And for goodness sakes can shows on MTV stop with the hunky guy fans love gets shot and makes a full recovery trope.  It was interesting though that show's worst written character shot the show's second worst written character. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by maraleia
edited to change ABC Family to MTV

[grandemocha]

 

How exactly is it her fault?

The MOMENT Carter saw Crash bought a gun, and it was loaded, AND that he was clearly losing it, she should have gone home. Immediately. Or at the very least told him to take out the bullets. She already knows this guy is a drug dealer, has a criminal record, is NOT a good person. Doesn't matter to her. She's so infuriatingly stubborn and acted like Elizabeth was wrong for how she acted toward Crash..when she was the only one who treated him like he should be treated.

 

Carter came to see Max and asked him for things she should not have. Two burner phones she didn't pay for. Yet AGAIN, she put him in a terrible position by having to give something to Lori, her kidnapper in case some have forgotten, made him stop before he could do the right thing and call Taylor. Carter is at fault here. She may not have pulled the trigger, but she's partly responsible for the sequence of events that led to Max getting shot.

 

Max made it perfectly clear to Carter that he not want to keep playing messenger between her and her kidnapper anymore. Not to mention it is also utterly moronic to go visit someone everyone knows is your friend while you are a fugitive.

 

Seeing as how the preview for next week's episode has her telling Crash he needs to turn himself in instead of telling that trash to fuck off and that Elizabeth with the cops will hunt his ass down, she won't change.

 

 

She was still going to run away with Crash even after he showed her the gun he bought. Max had also made it clear to Carter in a previous episode that he didn't want to play messenger between her and Lori anymore but Carter decided to be selfish and ignore his wishes, which ended up getting him shot.

 

Someone else wrote this, but this is absolutely correct IMO.

Carter keeps making stupid decisions, and made excuse after excuse for Crash in this episode long after she should have cut his crazy ass loose. Her stupid decisions hurt other people who don't deserve it, but when the heat is turned Carter's way, she runs because she can't handle it.

 

 

Also, they see Carter is devasted by Taylor's words and she walks off and no one is concerned she might go try and off herself.

I somehow thought crazy Lori was going to pop up and Carter would go with her.

Edited September 3, 2014 by grandemocha

[Aliasscape]

Is it sad my like second thought after Oh No Max, was arg, why couldn't Crash have shot one of her OTHER stupid friends? Seeing Bird or whathisface pill dealer, or that creepy probably a rapist guy get shot would have been so much better.  Or even dear old dad for that matter.

 

Also, they see Carter is devasted by Taylor's words and she walks off and no one is concerned she might go try and off herself. They're so fortunately she went to Chapel and not to go jump off the roof.

[dohe]

grandemocha, great rationalization.  The only thing missing is explaining how it is partially Carter's fault.  And again with the focus on how Carter is not completely subservient to the biological Mom she barely knows, who had her followed, and whose sex buddy arrested her and took her to prison.   

 

Carter is a flawed person.  Elizabeth is a flawed person.  Both have been through trauma and aren't dealing with it all that well but hardly better than most would in the same situation.  Why must it be this Carter is a monster if she does not subjugate herself thoroughly to Elizabeth.  You earn trust and respect in this world.  And frankly, to be fair here, both Carter and Elizabeth have had their failings and both have reasons for acting wrongheaded.  Instead after every episode you unload this how Carter is awful for not allowing herself to be subjugated by Elizabeth.  Sorry but in the real world, I think any 16 year old in Carter's situation would be disturbed by Elizabeth's behavior whether it be having her followed around from day 1 by fellow police officers or treating her like a constant suspect.  I am able to understand why Elizabeth, out of fear, anger, and trauma, acts like she does.  I am puzzled why you have no compassion for the biggest victim in this mess (well at least until Max tonight) which is the person who was kidnapped for 16 years.  I have yet to see an even close to decent explanation. 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2014 by dohe

[grandemocha]

I think I'll stop before I get unnecessarily snarky. I explained VERY clearly how Carter is partly responsible for Max getting shot. How she was a dumb ass for staying with Crash and not doing the right thing and going home. Breaking it down: Carter tells Crash she wants to go home --> Crash takes her home --> Crash/Carter never go to the mini mart to get burner phones from Max --> Crash never shoots Max.

 

If you don't like my reasoning, that's fine. You are entitled to that. 

 

Can I call Crash, Carter's fuck buddy then? A piece of trash who she lowers herself to screw? No difference between him and Elizabeth's "sex buddy" as you put it, right? Both guys are men Carter and Elizabeth shouldn't have looked at twice.

 

By the way, he had every right to arrest Carter and put her in jail because Carter's BFF Bird, another loser, accused her of stealing jewelry and Bird's mom pressed charges. Don't put that on the cop for doing his JOB. 

 

Respect is something Carter has not learned and hell, I don't blame her considering the psycho she grew up with was crazy as shit. Elizabeth is not disturbed, nuts, a dictator, or whatever ridiculous babble makes it seem like a mother of a kidnapped child is TOO protective. In fact, I'm constantly amazed at the shit Elizabeth lets Carter and her other kids get away with. Obviously it goes on in some families with snotty teens, but I would have never spoken to my mother the way Carter constantly does.

 

Of course this show is about Carter as the main character, so she'll get off scott free and not be responsible for anything. So predictable.

 

I have compassion for the characters on the show who deserve it. Right now, Carter isn't one of them.

Edited September 3, 2014 by grandemocha

[GaT]

They better not let Max's hair die, I will be really pissed off if they do.

[Spencer Hastings]

The good characters on this show really got screwed tonight. I really liked Taylor and Grant bonding on the stairs over being left out in the cold for Carter again. I also loved Taylor telling Carter where to stick her self pity.

I will be furious if they kill Max. And even more furious if Carter forgives Crash. Can't you see it? She will find another reason to shun Elizabeth but she will just forgive the psychopath who shot her best friend.

[sally-can-wait]

I usually cringe-watch this show but I thought tonight's episode was actually pretty solid. I desperately hope this will be the end of Crash but I doubt we will be that lucky. Prior to him getting shot, I thought Max had a really great line to Carter when he was referring to Lori and said something like "you ought to think about that apple not falling far from the tree thing...she's not your tree." I'm hoping this leads to more Carter and Elizabeth time because, to me, not only are they the two best actresses on the show but I actually do feel the connection between the two of them. I don't feel that way with Carter and anyone else, even her siblings.

Edited September 3, 2014 by mables-child

[Gwen-Stacys]

I think I'll stop before I get unnecessarily snarky. I explained VERY clearly how Carter is partly responsible for Max getting shot. How she was a dumb ass for staying with Crash and not doing the right thing and going home. Breaking it down: Carter tells Crash she wants to go home --> Crash takes her home --> Crash/Carter never go to the mini mart to get burner phones from Max --> Crash never shoots Max.

I think her point is that blaiming Carter for Crash's actions (who is his own person, and not Carter's personal Avatar where she can effect what he does or doesn't do.) is akin to blaming a rape victim for being raped based off of her being in one place and not the other. No one person is responsible (even partly) for another person's actions. If Carter had, knowing Crash had the gun, told him to threaten Max into doing what she wanted, then yea. You could then say it was partly her fault.

 

Max getting shot is 100% on Crash and his own poor reasoning skills.

[dohe]

grandemocha, last time I looked Carter is a 16 year old girl and Crash was her boyfriend.  Last time I looked Elizabeth is married with several children and that cop is not her husband.  Not that I condemning Elizabeth (I try to actually take in why a character behaves as they do) but yes the cop is Elizabeth's sex buddy and Crash is Carter's boyfriend (a terrible boyfriend but that is a whole other story). 

I think her point is that blaiming Carter for Crash's actions (who is his own person, and not Carter's personal Avatar where she can effect what he does or doesn't do.) is akin to blaming a rape victim for being raped based off of her being in one place and not the other. No one person is responsible (even partly) for another person's actions. If Carter had, knowing Crash had the gun, told him to threaten Max into doing what she wanted, then yea. You could then say it was partly her fault.

 

Max getting shot is 100% on Crash and his own poor reasoning skills.

Well said!  

 

What I find troubling is the belief in subjugation that is demanded of Carter despite the reality of her situation.  In those cases, Carter's experience is discounted.  It goes something like this.  Elizabeth is the biological Mom.  Carter is the biological daughter.  Therefore Carter must automatically assume a state of loyal subservience to Elizabeth and comprehend all of Elizabeth's behavior are, by the nature of her being the biological Mom, correct.  For example, if Elizabeth has her daughter followed by police, Carter's response is expected to be "Yes Mom.  I deserve that for you are my all knowing Mother." before Carter falls to her knees and kisses Elizabeth's feet.  If Carter pulls the prank at the mall on Elizabeth, the fact that she is communicating stop having me followed like a criminal and stop trying to exploit me to catch someone is lost.  Instead it is how dare Carter question the Mom.  The Mom is God!

[SonofaBiscuit]

Rule # 1 Crash, you never point a loaded gun at yourself or another person.  Unfortunately, this kind of thing still happens in real life, so apparently people don't know better.  That whole scene was pretty grisly.

 

My main problem with this show is that I don't like the main character.  I know I should sympathize with Carter because of the terrible crap that she's gone through, but I just can't connect with her for some reason.  I actually suspect that it's how the actress is playing the character.  It's bizarre because she's not a bad actress, and I've heard good things about her from another show she was on, but I just don't feel anything when she's supposed to have these big emotional scenes.  I'm hoping that will change, and it's possible that it may. 

 

I think that I'm actually most impressed with the actress playing Taylor.  At the start of the season, I remember thinking that she was just terrible in some of her scenes.  She has improved so much and now she is one of my favorite characters on this show.

 

I'm really hoping that they don't kill Max.  I'm not sure that Taylor could recover from that and have a normal healthy relationship with her sister since she's placing the blame on Carter at the moment.  While I realize that others don't like him, Max is my favorite and I don't know if I'd bother to keep tuning in if he was gone.  Alex Saxon has just built up a lot of good will from his time over on The Fosters, so I immediately took a liking to him here.  Plus, he's an awesome friend and even better boyfriend.

 

 

[grandemocha]

 

The Mom is God!

This is very melodramatic... Maybe it's really "Carter is God. All must obey Carter. Allow her to do whatever she wants. It is all up to Carter"

 

Fact is Carter was a TERRIBLE person when she humiliated Elizabeth at the mall. Horrible. Guess what? Teenagers need to be held responsible for their actions. Carter does NOT get a free pass because she was kidnapped as a child. Elizabeth and the family have dealt with it for 13 years, Carter is only dealing with it now. If Taylor ran someone over with her car, can I say "Poor Taylor, she's only experiencing latent trauma from having her sister kidnapped". Fuck no. Doesn't work like that.

 

I mean damn, how can it not be seen that there is a BIG damn difference between your silly "Mom is God" and Respect your mother who hasn't done terrible things to you. Everything concerning protecting her that Elizabeth has done was in carter's best interests. I keep seeing "B-but but Elizabeth had Carter followed" ...Like seriously? Who gives a fuck? She should have put a tracker on the car too. This woman JUST got her daughter back. No shit she's going to be crazy and paranoid when that daughter immediately wants to leave the house and drive 2 hours away. You cut Carter sooo much slack because she is 17, not a 6 year old mind you, almost an adult, but none for Elizabeth. No one was talking about subjugation or pure worship, but it's about being a fucking decent person an understanding on Carter's part that Elizabeth has lived through hell for YEARS.

 

Carter is partly responsible for Max getting shot. Like I said before, if Carter wasn't there, then Crash wouldn't have been there. Guess what, sometimes people share responsibility when something bad happens. That is the case here. Carter's selfish actions led her to think it was okay to go see Max when there was an Amber alert out, and put Max once again in an uncomfortable position that led to him getting shot. He was trying to be a damn good friend to Carter's stupid self even at the last moment, which is better than she deserves, and he got a bullet for his troubles.

 

Not to mention the fact that as soon as Carter saw that Crash barely knew how to handle a gun and didn't realize how to put the safety on, she should have realized "Oh shit, I've made a terrible mistake. How do I get out of this safely" not "But Max, Crash is a goood guy, I understand him. He's been treated so badly. I have to be with him" blah blah.

 

Like it would have been so hard for Carter to say "Crash take me home right now. I've made a mistake".

 

I think her point is that blaiming Carter for Crash's actions (who is his own person, and not Carter's personal Avatar where she can effect what he does or doesn't do.) is akin to blaming a rape victim for being raped based off of her being in one place and not the other.

This analogy makes no sense and is pretty damn insulting to rape victims to try to compare Carter's dumb ass actions with her drug dealer boyfriend to what happens to REAL victims. Carter was NOT a real victim last night. And actually, Carter could have possibly swayed Crash into making a slightly different decision before they got to Max. Girlfriends can affect what their boyfriends do. Have you never influenced a friend's decisions? I have. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by grandemocha

[joanne3482]

To me, she is partially at fault because she's the reason they were there to begin with. She insisted on going there. Crash did not want to go back. He thought it was a bad idea but she insisted because she wanted Max to communicate with Lori for her. Had they not gone there. Had they continued to run away as was their plan Crash never would've started melting down in the car and never would have shot Max. It was, though, an accidental shooting. Crash thought the safety was still on when he pulled the gun to begin with. He pulled the gun to make the "robbery" more plausible. Incredibly bad idea. It is his fault he shot Max. But her insistence on communicating with Lori is what put them there to begin with. 

 

Therefore Carter must automatically assume a state of loyal subservience to Elizabeth and comprehend all of Elizabeth's behavior are, by the nature of her being the biological Mom, correct.

 

What I find troubling about Carter in general is her lack of anger towards Lori. I don't expect her to jump on the Elizabeth train right out of the chute, although I do find it interesting that until the lying and book situation with David she was totally fine with David. But her almost unyielding loyalty to Lori and complete antagonism towards Elizabeth is bothersome. She should be angry with Lori. She should, to my mind, have some emotion beyond "I have to get back home to Lori and everything will go back to normal." Although, now that I've typed that out maybe that's her actual mindset. In her mind full of magical thinking her life will go back to exactly what it was before all this if she got to be with Lori again. 

 

I find it curious that they had that growth chart that showed Carter when she was fairly small. Did Lori not move them around? Were they somehow able to live THAT close to Carter's real family undetected for most of Carter's life? I wish the show would go into some of Carter's life with Lori a little more. 

[justcris]

I hope the writers aren't dumb enough to kill of Max, who is the best, always.

 

I am also on the Carter kinda sucks train. Why didn't she just go back home when she found out she wasn't going to jail and that all charges were dropped? Why didn't she realize she was putting Crash in a really bad spot? Or, I mean, she realized it because HE SAID AS MUCH and she just didn't care about it. He even wanted to get her home, but she refused.

 

I actually don't see Crash as the absolute bad guy here. They were both enabling each other's bad decisions to a degree. Yes, he shouldn't have had the gun, but also, they shouldn't be "on the run" anyway! Surprise surprise, Carter was just being stubborn and selfish, yet again. 

[grandemocha]

 

wish the show would go into some of Carter's life with Lori a little more.

They got a Season 2 so it will probably be covered then.

[Gwen-Stacys]

To me, she is partially at fault because she's the reason they were there to begin with. She insisted on going there. Crash did not want to go back. He thought it was a bad idea but she insisted because she wanted Max to communicate with Lori for her.

Even with that in consideration, it is in no way her fault that Crash shot Max. YMMV, but I've never been a fan of blaming one person for the outcome of another person's actions. Is Carter selfish? Yes, but so are most teenagers. Does she lack the ability to think her actions through? Yes. But then again, she is a teenager and it has been scientifically proven that they lack the complete maturity/ability to think ahead to all of the consequences their actions...much less how their actions might cause another person to react.

 

I'm in the boat that understands both Elizabeth and Carter's POV. Carter has started to come around and see that Lori was in the wrong....still doesn't change the fact that she grew up believing this woman was her mother. Most children have very strong attachments to their parents, it's why children who are abused are slow in coming forward. 1. They're afraid, and 2. They love their parent/s and don't want to cause trouble. Elizabeth is overprotective because she is a Momma Bear who lost her cub, then found her, and can't bare the thought of losing her again.

Edited September 5, 2014 by Gwen-Stacys

[Primetimer]

Who's putting an amber alert out on logic, and other not-quite-burning questions about Finding Carter.

Read the story

[nasir jones]

I'm pretty much hate watching at this point. When the ep was over and the promo said, "Only 2 more episodes left", I responded, "There's two more weeks of this shit?!?!" For some reason, I thought this was the season finale.

Carter is completely infuriating. Let's keep Max and kill her off.

[SonofaBiscuit]

Yeah, for some reason I thought that last week was the finale.  I kind of wish it had been so we could have ended on a nice happy note instead of Max in a life-or-death situation.  I'm not sure if he's going to make it or not :( 

[paulvdb]

I hope Max survives. And I also hope that Carter doesn't forgive Crash. First he was stupid enough to point the gun in the direction of Max, and then he actually pulled the trigger. Isn't one of the first rules of gun safety that you should never do that? Even if you believe that the safety is on or the gun is not loaded. And then Crash wanted to leave Max and if I remember correctly he would not even call 911.

If Carter forgives him, that's going to make me very unhappy. And she already made some stupid decisions in this episode that made me like her less. I usually don't like watching shows where I don't like the lead character. So I hope the writers don't make the mistake of having Carter forgive Crash.

[Kat]

The MOMENT Carter saw Crash bought a gun, and it was loaded, AND that he was clearly losing it, she should have gone home. Immediately. Or at the very least told him to take out the bullets.

 

 

When Carter took the gun from him and checked the bullets and safety, I thought for sure that she was going to put the clip in her pocket. That's what she SHOULD have done. Stupid girl.

 

I actually don't see Crash as the absolute bad guy here. They were both enabling each other's bad decisions to a degree.

 

I agree with this completely. I just want to see Carter have some sort of realization of her part in this mess, and stop trying to "save" Crash. He needs a good therapist, not a 17yr old dumb girlfriend.

 

Generally, I thought this episode, frustrating though it was, had stellar perfomances from all of the actors involved.

[dohe]

Even with that in consideration, it is in no way her fault that Carter shot Max. YMMV, but I've never been a fan of blaming one person for the outcome of another person's actions. Is Carter selfish? Yes, but so are most teenagers. Does she lack the ability to think her actions through? Yes. But then again, she is a teenager and it has been scientifically proven that they lack the complete maturity/ability to think ahead to all of the consequences their actions...much less how their actions might cause another person to react.

 

I'm in the boat that understands both Elizabeth and Carter's POV. Carter has started to come around and see that Lori was in the wrong....still doesn't change the fact that she grew up believing this woman was her mother. Most children have very strong attachments to their parents, it's why children who are abused are slow in coming forward. 1. They're afraid, and 2. They love their parent/s and don't want to cause trouble. Elizabeth is overprotective because she is a Momma Bear who lost her cub, then found her, and can't bare the thought of losing her again.

Well said again.  I understand both pov's too.  The reality is there is sometimes a situation where neither person is the bad person.  Both Elizabeth and Carter were victimized horribly and have made bad decisions out of that victimization.  It doesn't mean they are monsters. 

 

It troubles me that the Mary Sue character of Taylor is loved while the far more complex, richly drawn character of Carter is hated upon for the same reason it seems hate tends to crop up with female teen characters.  That is they are seen as monsters when what they are displaying is what both boys (who tend to get a pass) and girls are going through at that age - a discovery of and coming to terms with their identity.  When someone calls Carter horrible for the prank at the mall but fails to see why this recently found kidnap victim may be hurt by their recently reunited parent treating them like you treat criminals or bait, there is a loss of perspective. 

 

I wouldn't be bothered by the loss of Max.  It is a weak performance and the character seems written by committee.  The stoner type who is revealed to be a wise and sensitive sage.  Almost every line by Max and Taylor seem written by committee.

Edited September 3, 2014 by dohe

[QuietTheMind]

If Carter forgives Crash, I would legitimately be shocked out of my mind.

[bettername2come]

I feel angry towards Carter about Max being shot. Obviously she isn't an accessory in any legal sense, but I do feel like she is indirectly responsible. She brought the danger to Max. I'm agreeing with Taylor; I have very little sympathy for Carter right now. I don't think Max will or should be angry at Carter for this, but I do want this to be the final straw in her realizing what terrible choices and terrible friends she's making. 

 

Seriously, Crash needs to go to jail now. Maybe he doesn't mean to keep doing awful things, but he does. He's had more than enough chances and while I don't think he intends to be villainous, it doesn't change the fact that he's a bad guy. He needs to take responsibility for his actions and make things right. 

 

These characters aren't thinking rationally, and that's a problem across the board. 

[Kromm]

There is no way in my mind Crash can be redeemed.  No matter his background, no decent human being would just leave after doing or seeing something like that.

Plenty would.

The real problem is that most of them aren't scummy drug dealers who think they have to buy guns, and then wave them around to bully someone into a fake robbery. Running from an accidental shooting? Fine. Even indirectly using a gun to threaten Max? Fuck you, drug dealing scum. Go get captured next episode and spend the rest of your fictional life in fictional Jail.

I find it curious that they had that growth chart that showed Carter when she was fairly small. Did Lori not move them around? Were they somehow able to live THAT close to Carter's real family undetected for most of Carter's life? I wish the show would go into some of Carter's life with Lori a little more.

Part of me thinks it SHOULD be true that Lori moved them around, but we know she didn't simply because we've already heard that Carter and Max were best friends pretty much from like... pre-school, right? Edited September 4, 2014 by Kromm

[Kromm]

Carter is partly responsible for Max getting shot. Like I said before, if Carter wasn't there, then Crash wouldn't have been there. Guess what, sometimes people share responsibility when something bad happens. That is the case here. Carter's selfish actions led her to think it was okay to go see Max when there was an Amber alert out, and put Max once again in an uncomfortable position that led to him getting shot. He was trying to be a damn good friend to Carter's stupid self even at the last moment, which is better than she deserves, and he got a bullet for his troubles.

 

Not to mention the fact that as soon as Carter saw that Crash barely knew how to handle a gun and didn't realize how to put the safety on, she should have realized "Oh shit, I've made a terrible mistake. How do I get out of this safely" not "But Max, Crash is a goood guy, I understand him. He's been treated so badly. I have to be with him" blah blah.

 

Like it would have been so hard for Carter to say "Crash take me home right now. I've made a mistake".

This analogy makes no sense and is pretty damn insulting to rape victims to try to compare Carter's dumb ass actions with her drug dealer boyfriend to what happens to REAL victims. Carter was NOT a real victim last night. And actually, Carter could have possibly swayed Crash into making a slightly different decision before they got to Max. Girlfriends can affect what their boyfriends do. Have you never influenced a friend's decisions? I have.

 

Crash is a piece of garbage they need to get off the show (and that stupid rich girl too), but I think it's a horrible suggestion that being responsible for someone being in a certain place at a certain time projects shared guilt onto someone else.  Under that logic, Bruce Wayne is responsible for his parent's death, because he made them take him to that particular movie.  Or any of a million real world cases where someone made some decision that put certain people in certain places at certain times, and then something bad happened.

 

Carter's indirect responsibility really only lays in ONE thing--being "friends" with Crash in the first place (or at least staying friends with him). That's it.  That's her grand error in judgement, not a string of ridiculous situations that put the two of them in a certain place at a certain time, when Crash, piece of shit that he is, just happened to decide that waving the gun around and trying to persuade Max into faking a robbery was a good idea.  Carter's responsibility wasn't in Crash's specific presence or actions, but in having him in any of their lives in the first place.

 

That selfish rich bitch girl and the other stoner kid with the curly hair?  Them too.  They all need to fuck off and not come back.  There are bad kids in every school granted, but Carter gravitating to a whole pack of them gets back to how badly Lori "taught" her to evaluate people.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Kromm

[Mabinogia]

The parts of the show I like the best are the parts the show doesn't really focus on, they just throw out a line here and there and move on to the teen shit. The moment with Taylor and Grant on the stairs, the idea that this is all happening again, that Elizabeth is focused once more on the daughter who is missing and not the children right in front of her. And Grant's little "I'm glad you're here" or whatever he said. I love that story. That's the story I want to watch. How this family, not just Carter, are struggling to adjust to first Carter being kidnapped, then Carter coming back and now Carter being a jerk. That is interesting to me, not Crash the asshole and Carter and her steamroller determination to get back to Lori.

[Kali]

How exactly is it her fault?  Or are you of the belief that a person is immediately responsible if their boyfriend/girlfriend commits a crime in which they are definitely not an accessory.  Now if Carter said to Crash lets go in and rob Max you would have a point.   If Carter went along with Crash in any way when he pulled that gun out you would have a point.  But that didn't happen did it?  Time for rationalization why it is her fault of course.

 

And for goodness sakes can shows on MTV stop with the hunky guy fans love gets shot and makes a full recovery trope.  It was interesting though that show's worst written character shot the show's second worst written character. 

Its her fault because she ran away with douche Crash, her fault because instead of going home she chose to run and CONVINCED Crash to run with her.  Had she not decided to send stupid Lori a message via Max and be a selfish person, Max would not have been shot.

Edited September 4, 2014 by Kali

[Kromm]

Its her fault because she ran away with douche Crash, her fault because instead of going home she chose to run and CONVINCED Crash to run with her.  Had she not decided to send stupid Lori a message via Max and be a selfish person, Max would not have been shot.

I'm really glad we don't live in a society where the courts agree with this kind of logic to determine guilt.

[Kali]

I think her point is that blaiming Carter for Crash's actions (who is his own person, and not Carter's personal Avatar where she can effect what he does or doesn't do.) is akin to blaming a rape victim for being raped based off of her being in one place and not the other. No one person is responsible (even partly) for another person's actions. If Carter had, knowing Crash had the gun, told him to threaten Max into doing what she wanted, then yea. You could then say it was partly her fault.

 

Max getting shot is 100% on Crash and his own poor reasoning skills.

But if carter had gone home...none of it would have happened.  At the end of the day she CONVINCED Crash to stay on the run after he wanted her to go home.  Had she not even gone to send stupid Lori a message Max would have been none the wiser and still in one piece.  I am a mother to a 16 year old and Elizabeth is doing the right thing.  She is protecting her child even when she does not think she needs protecting.  Those of you on this board who have no children have no idea how hard parenting is, let alone a teenager.  Thankfully, my 16 year old was never kidnapped, has some common sense (a lil bit) and knows a drug dealer is a bad choice of friends.  I am sure there are 16 year olds as screwed up as Carter in real life, but in real life, if she were at the scene of the shooting she would be arrested as well.  In the real world, if someone dies in the commission of a felony, you are charged with MURDER.  Even if it was not your intention to kill them or for them to get hurt.  Crash having a gun may even be seen as PREMEDITATION.  So MURDER 1.  There is immature teenage behavior and then there is just pure recklessness and not giving a rats A$$ about anyone else but yourself.  Carter is selfish and immature.  She needs to get a life and start listening to some grown ups.  I don't care what she thinks of Elizabeth, she is an adult and even at 40 I know to always respect my elders.  My mom would still smash the ISH out of me at 40 years old if I talked to her even remotely close to disrespectful.

I'm really glad we don't live in a society where the courts agree with this kind of logic to determine guilt.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but if you kill someone during the commission of another crime, you can be charged with Murder.  So if Max dies while they were robbing him, Crash will be charged with MURDER and she will be charged with murder and/or being an accomplice to murder.  And since he had a gun it may even be seen as premeditated.  FYI. 

[grandemocha]

 

I'm really glad we don't live in a society where the courts agree with this kind of logic to determine guilt.

No one is saying or has said that Carter needs to be prosecuted or sent to prison. No one has hinted at that. In my opinion, Carter needs to wake the hell up, buy a clue, and cut ties with her shitty friends and Crash. He is too damaged to be fixed a by a clueless teenager who won't even own up to her own mistakes. Crash is not misunderstood, or unfairly judged, or the cute/troubled boy next door. He has now committed a crime and needs to go to jail for it. Accident or not, he needs to own up to it.

 

Carter made some VERY bad choices this past episode, and Max got hurt in the end. Elizabeth was absolutely correct about Crash, but Carter refused to see that. She's so busy with her righteous indignation and spending her time being a hypocrite that she can't see what's right in front of her. 

 

The question is: Will Carter finally learn from her mistakes and stop running away every time shit gets tough, or will she make excuses for Crash shooting Max and continue to be an idiot. But then have it excused because "Oh, I was kidnapped and I'm only a teenager. A teenager who shouldn't be held responsible for ANYTHING I do wrong because I'm young". 17 year old Carter is almost 18 and then the kid gloves will come off. Having a cop for a mother has probably helped her ass more than she deserves.

 

 

he needs to get a life and start listening to some grown ups.  I don't care what she thinks of Elizabeth, she is an adult and even at 40 I know to always respect my elders.  My mom would still smash the ISH out of me at 40 years old if I talked to her even remotely close to disrespectful.

BLESS YOU! Yes. Exactly my thoughts. There are so many kids in the real world with abusive, psychotic, and hateful parents and Carter continually shows disrespect to a mother like Elizabeth. It's so stupid to me. It would have been hilarious to see Carter go on the run and see how hard life can REALLY be when there's no parent to save your ass at every corner. To fix your mistakes. To bail you out.

Edited September 4, 2014 by grandemocha

[calliope1975]

I think Carter's a complete idiot with horrible taste in friends and makes beyond stupid decisions but I don't understand why she should be arrested for Crash's actions. While she knew he had a gun, how would she know he was going to pull it on Max? How did she know he hadn't left it in the car? She absolutely would and should have been questioned as the police attempted to do, but I don't see how she would be an accessory. (Not a lawyer, though.)

[Zima]

I hope Max dies, freeing Alex Saxon up to play the lead in a show that's actually worth watching. 

[dohe]

 Kali, I hate to be the bearer of bad news myself but Carter was not an accessory to a crime.  If she had gone along with Crash's decision to rob Max than she would be.  But that did not occur.  She did not go in that store to rob Max.  She went to ask for a favor.  When Crash pulled a gun, Carter freaked out and began screaming at Crash to stop.  At no point, did she ever conspire to rob Max and at no point did she assist Crash.

 

grandemocha and Kali, a helpful reminder.  Carter was not raised by Elizabeth.  She was raised by her kidnapper.  Only recently has she been reconciled with Elizabeth.  Elizabeth's first primary actions were to have her followed by a police officer and to use her as bait to catch the person that Carter loves more than anything else in the world.  We know Lori is the villain here and that Carter and Elizabeth are both victims.  In many cases like this, the child won't even have anything to do with the real parent they have been reconciled with.  To expect Carter to accept being followed, accept being used as bait, and accept the, to her, rigorous guidelines she was not raised in is to completely and thoroughly ignore that this is a story about a young woman who was kidnapped and does not know her real parents until just recently.  Both Carter and Elizabeth have made mistakes.  To strip this down to Elizabeth is the biological Mom and everything she says must be obeyed lacks context.   It is interesting to discuss how both Elizabeth and Carter are undergoing severely traumatic situations and how it is slowly but surely helping them understand each other.  This show may be a corny to a point.  Heck it may be at times just outright lame.  But it doesn't deserve this Carter doesn't listen to Elizabeth so she is a monster commentary which seems to, when it comes down to it, ignores what the show is really about in favor of acting like this is a competition.

Edited September 4, 2014 by dohe

[grandemocha]

 

This whole Carter doesn't listen to Elizabeth so she is a monster commentary seems to ignore what happened to Carter to an over the top extent while showing a desire for subjugation that kind of creeps me out.

No one has called Carter a monster for not listening to Elizabeth. 

 

No one is asking for subjugation from Carter. 

 

Elizabeth's first primary actions were to have her followed by a police officer

And I fucking APPLAUD her for that choice. She absolutely 100% should have done that. Any mother who had just gotten their kidnapped child back after 13 long years would have done exactly the same thing, or more. In fact, it's surprising that Elizabeth even let her leave. Like is it so hard to understand how a kidnapping of over a decade could really screw with your psyche and make your paranoid that you'd lose your child again?

 

I do expect Carter to show Elizabeth some fucking decency and kindness. It's like pulling teeth to get Carter to be nice to Elizabeth 80% of the time. It should not be that hard. I do not understand what is so confusing and hard about showing respect to your mother. 

 

This damn show is so half assed that I sometimes scoff when I hear all the bad shit Carter does excused because "she was kidnapped". The show only lets me see Carter struggle with that a small amount of the time. No therapy, no Carter asking ANY questions that a real human being would ask, nothing.

 

It's about respecting an adult who has not physically, mentally, or emotionally harmed you and has shown she cares on more than one occasion. 

I do NOT care as much about Carter feeling conflicted because she has only known about her kidnapping for 3 months tops and most of the time acts like it's no big deal.. Elizabeth, Taylor, and the rest of the family have suffered for 13 years. The majority of my sympathy lies with them.

 

By the logic that I have seen expressed, that Carter should get a free pass for all the shit she pulls because "wah wah she loves her kidnapper and that's why Elizabeth should let her go free and not capture her crazy ass for Carter's sake" then Elizabeth should be given a free pass for her affair: because she was traumatized from losing her baby daughter and she had a terrible husband, Grant and Taylor should start acting like disrespectful snots and be automatically forgiven because they lived for years with not knowing what happened to their sister and so on.

Edited September 4, 2014 by grandemocha

[rubyred]

Phew. This is one intense thread. A few thoughts:

 

Crash will go down for this, I don't think they can avoid that. But I suspect the surveillance footage will make it clear that the gun went off by accident. So, secondary manslaughter? Hopefully Carter will cut him loose, though.

 

I thought Carter wanted to go home when she learned the charges had been dropped - but felt like she couldn't abandon Crash, since he'd already broken probation by leaving with her to begin with. Her bad decision making in choosing him as her boyfriend has been well-documented, but there it is. She chose him. That is the situation she is working with.

 

I can't bring myself to blame a 16 year old for being unaware of the significance of Chekhov's gun. Crash has shown himself to be erratic, but Carter has always been able to talk him down, and I'm sure her teenage confidence made her feel like she could handle anything. Arrogant, stubborn, sure. But not unbelievable.

 

I understand why Taylor is so upset, and I'm sure that smackdown was a long time coming. But another thing that Carter brought in to her life, along with all the drama and trouble, was....Max. Taylor would never have met Max if it weren't for Carter. And I don't think Carter appeared anything but distraught over the situation.

 

And again, while I understand her motives, Elizabeth employing the nuclear option by putting out the Amber alert contributed to this flashpoint. Things were bad enough, and as Crash pointed out, he's now a kidnapper and (apparently not actually) a statutory rapist (though in the world of the show, Crash doesn't know this). He would be hunted down. I was unpleasantly surprised that she did that, given Carter's reactions the last time she used her cop skills to wrangle her.

Edited September 4, 2014 by rubyred

[grandemocha]

 

And again, while I understand her motives, Elizabeth employing the nuclear option by putting out the Amber alert contributed to this flashpoint.

What would you have had her do though? Hope Carter comes to her senses and comes home? Just accept that her child was gone again? Pray day and night for a postcard that might come 3 years later? Or never again? 

 

Carter overreacting and running away with Crash led to Elizabeth having to put out that Amber alert. Yet again, poor decision making on Carter's part. 

 

I get the feeling that if Elizabeth had been out in her car hunting Crash and Carter down, she would have been criticized for that too.

 

 

I can't bring myself to blame a 16 year old

Carter isn't 16. She's 17 years old. Almost a legal adult.

It's Crash's fault that he is a "statutory rapist", he chose to have sex with a minor. (Which, I don't even know the laws concerning sex with minors in whatever state the characters are in, but whatever)

It's Crash's fault he's a kidnapper.  He made some very bad decisions in his life that led him to his current situation. 

 

Also, the thing is to me...."appearing distraught" over what happened to Max doesn't mean much. Just because Carter cries, it doesn't mean everything is okay or fixed.

 

ETA: I feel like I might be nuts, but were we supposed to see Crash as being on some kind of drugs during this episode? I swear it seemed like he was high or tripping out in some of the scenes.

Edited September 4, 2014 by grandemocha

[dohe]

grandemocha, the very fact that you would applaud a person's first action is to have her daughter be followed around by a police officer while at the same time stating you don't desire subjugation says it all.  I think we can comprehend why Elizabeth, who has been through a trauma, would do that.  However I don't know if anything states I distrust you more than having someone else followed by the police.  To Carter (or any person in Carter's position), Elizabeth's behavior displayed zero trust and ignored her emotions. 

 

Everytime it comes back to subjugation.  It always comes back to Carter doesn't listen to her Mom so Carter is horrible.  In your latest post you basically state what Carter is going through is no big deal and again make it into a competition who has been hurt worse.  Finding out at the age of 16 that the person who has raised you and who you love more than anyone else in the world was a kidnapper would devastate anyone.  But to you no big deal.  Shut up Carter and accept it!  Carter needs to get over it immediately and understand Elizabeth is to be obeyed apparently.  Unreal.   

 

For the umpteenth time, it is not a competition.  Both Elizabeth and Carter have suffered.  Both have made mistakes.  As rubyred pointed out, the use of the amber alert in this episode didn't do anyone favors.  You seem to think the people who disagree with you are painting Carter as a saint.  They aren't.  They are simply placing the actions of all the characters in perspective and understanding that sometimes there are cases when there are more than one victim.   You're the one acting as if Elizabeth is a perfect saint and Carter is a terrible monster.  Sometimes life is not that simple and sometimes not all the actions of a parent are the best no matter how well-intentioned.     

Edited September 4, 2014 by dohe

[grandemocha]

 

However I don't know if anything states I distrust you more than having someone else followed by the police.

This is a very teenage way of seeing it. I'm sure I would have thought the exact same thing when I was 16 or 17 like "OMG, my mother totally doesn't trust me. How dare she have me followed".

Getting older allowed me to gain experience, maturity, and perspective on the situation.

 

An adult can see that it has nothing to do with whether or not Elizabeth trusts Carter or not, it has to do with Elizabeth being scared as hell that Carter's kidnapper was running around free and would happily take away Elizabeth's daughter again if she had the chance. Having that cop guy there gave Elizabeth a tiny piece of mind. But again, I can see that and understand it because I am no longer in my teen years. I guess I probably should stop watching teen shows, because 9 times out of 10 I usually sympathize with the parents and understand their actions far more than I do of the teen characters.

Edited September 4, 2014 by grandemocha

[Mabinogia]

Carter was not raised by Elizabeth. She was raised by her kidnapper.

And it shows in every single action she has done so far. I know Max's apple/tree thing was supposed to make us think maybe Carter is more like Elizabeth but all I see is Lori's take what you want, do what you want, who cares about the consequences mentality in every action Carter makes. I hope that changes over time, but right now all I see is Lori.

 

Crash will go down for this, I don't think they can avoid that. But I suspect the surveillance footage will make it clear that the gun went off by accident

 

 

But did it? There was no sound, the show made a point of that, so what we saw was, fugitive/kidnapped female has long talk with victim. Fugitive male shows up, little talking and then waves gun at victims face, then gun fires, victim drops. Female fugitive/kidnap victim rushes to victim tries to help, calls cops. male fugitive takes off. Without the benefit of sound I'd say it looks like Crash went in with the purpose of robbing the place, when it didn't go his way he shot Max and took off.

[dohe]

This is a very teenage way of seeing it. I'm sure I would have thought the exact same thing when I was 16 or 17 like "OMG, my mother totally doesn't trust me. How dare she have me followed".

Getting older allowed me to gain experience, maturity, and perspective on the situation.

 

An adult can see that it has nothing to do with whether or not Elizabeth trusts Carter or not, it has to do with Elizabeth being scared as hell that Carter's kidnapper was running around free and would happily take away Elizabeth's daughter again if she had the chance. Having that cop guy there gave Elizabeth a tiny piece of mind. But again, I can see that and understand it because I am no longer in my teen years. I guess I probably should stop watching teen shows, because 9 times out of 10 I usually sympathize with the parents and understand their actions far more than I do of the teen characters.

Carter is a teen right?  So it is sort of perplexing that you would express such venom towards that character, in your words, for thinking like a teen.

 

I agree with you in that maybe you should stop watching teen shows too.  Because when a person gets to the point where they think a child who was kidnapped, raised by that kidnapper with no awareness that they were taken, and then at 17 finds out their entire life is a lie should have no emotional trauma, should easily slide into a new life, and should automatically respect the person who treats them like a criminal (and in the real world having your 17 year old followed by the police is treating your child as a criminal), it is evident you have lost perspective.   

 

P.S. The refusal to try to gain insight where a teen is coming from and the belief that the parent is omnipotent does not indicate maturity.  That is a black and white world when sometimes life comes in grey. 

Edited September 4, 2014 by dohe

[Gwen-Stacys]

I think we've come to the point where we should all just agree to disagree on certain aspects of the show. Some of us understand Carter's perspective without discounting Elizabeth's perspective, while others of us only see Elizabeth's. Honestly, I think refusing to "walk in Carter's shoes" so to speak when watching this show and expecting her to act like a fully grown, superhumanly rational adult is...it almost feels like you’re watching the show wrong. I'm an adult -mortgage, fulltime job, the whole she bang- and if I found out my mom wasn't my mother, I'd flip the fuck out same as Carter, and can't say that I'd want anything to do with my birth mom/it would take a while to work up to any time of interaction, much less a relationship. The same could be said for not seeing things through Elizabeth's perspective though. I think everything she's done makes sense for who she is as a person and what she's gone through. She's rigid and paranoid, and has every right to be.

 

After seeing this season as a whole, I'm starting to think the point of this show is to evaluate what a situation like this would do for both a mother and a daughter. Carter and Elizabeth are both victims, and the show is about Elizabeth's journey as she struggles to "Find Carter". These two women are essentially strangers to each other. Carter feels like she doesn't owe Elizabeth a damn thing. It sucks that she had to go through what she went through, and what Lori (the woman Carter will probably always see as being her mother) did to her was fucked up, but Carter is the one suffering in this and none of it was her fault (from Carter's perspective). Elizabeth feels like she's on shaky ground. She doesn't know what to do with this girl, her baby, whom she loves so much and so fully, and whose disappearance from her life turned everything upside down for her....but she doesn't know Carter. She knew Linden....so where does she fit into the life of this girl, who is almost an adult and wants nothing to do with her, but she's so beautiful and intriguing and she's there after being gone for so long....She can't lose her again, so she does some shady (but completely understandable) things out of fear, anger, and just......

 

Tl;dnr: The show is about Carter and Elizabeth finding their place in each other's life. Both will make mistakes and they will clash because they are operating off of two different perspectives. It all makes sense if you remember that.

[joanne3482]

It troubles me that the Mary Sue character of Taylor is loved while the far more complex, richly drawn character of Carter is hated upon for the same reason it seems hate tends to crop up with female teen characters.

 

For me, Taylor's Mary Sue behavior rings true. She has likely spent her whole life trying to not upset her parents further so she does everything as exactly right as she can. The flip side is that she's nervous and anxious because she's afraid of upsetting her parents further. It's a very hard way to live. She's very repressed and I think she's shown that tightrope she walks pretty effectively. 

[grandemocha]

 

it almost feels like you’re watching the show wrong.

Unless you wrote, edited, produced, or acted in this show, you really don't have the right to suggest that someone else is watching the show "wrong". My perspective is just as valid as yours and so would anyone else's. We all obviously have different opinions and can agree to disagree, but no one on this board really has any special insight that makes their interpretation of the characters and story more valid than others.

 

But yes, obviously we're just going in circles here, so agree to disagree.

 

 

Because when a person gets to the point where they think a child who was kidnapped, raised by that kidnapper with no awareness that they were taken, and then at 17 finds out their entire life is a lie should have no emotional trauma, should easily slide into a new life, and should automatically respect the person who treats them like a criminal (and in the real world having your 17 year old followed by the police is treating your child as a criminal), it is evident you have lost perspective.

Not even remotely close to what I said. But okay. 

 

I do not and I never have liked teen characters that are brats. Carter is a brat. It is understandable because of the kind of psycho that raised her, but it will not excuse all of her shitty choices or hateful actions.

 

If the show wants to convey that Carter is struggling over her kidnapping or traumatized, then they need to do a damn better job than they are. The idea that a 17 year old teenager should NEVER be punished, or held accountable for her actions is ludicrous and only reinforces the terrible behavior. Carter needs to learn not to RUN or get defensive every time someone says or does something she doesn't like. That is life. Sometimes your parents will do something you don't like or understand or get mad over. But, guess what? Most of the time they have a good reason for doing so.

 

I've enjoyed my fair share of teen shows, but in all of them, I've always disliked the requisite snotty teen character. That's me and my thoughts. I'll continue to see it that way

 

 

She has likely spent her whole life trying to not upset her parents further so she does everything as exactly right as she can.

Taylor's behavior reminds me of the sister character in that old book series "Face on the Milk Carton", the main kidnapped girl had a biological sister and family that she discovered later. The kidnapped girl's siblings all changed and had to grow up fast because of what happened to Janie.

Edited September 4, 2014 by grandemocha