S01.E05: Part Five - Shadow Warrior

[absnow54]

12 hours ago, tv-talk said:

So what was the actual point here? That Ahsoka met up with Anakin and finished her fight training? Is Anakin now the gatekeeper of life and death, if you can defeat him you live but if not you die? Is the total purpose of whatever that was that she comes back a better warrior than before? It seemed that way to me.

I think it was more about facing her demons. Ahsoka has been cagey about her past, and has stated that she and Anakin have unfinished business. If you hadn't watched the Clone Wars or Rebels, all you really know so far is that Ahsoka was trained by Anakin at some point, so I think this episode was important for giving an overview of Ahsoka's role in the Clone Wars. She was a kid, assigned to an unhinged prodigy with rage issues who was let loose on the battlefield. Everyone in Anakin's circle blamed themselves for his turn to the Dark Side, but in hindsight, there were red flags all along. I thought the point was for Ahsoka to see Anakin with a more nuanced perspective, so she could overcome her trauma and be free of her guilt over Anakin's fate. She could face the rest of eternity battling her demons, or she could live.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, absnow54 said:

She was a kid, assigned 

... by these guys...

She definitely has some unresolved rage issues with them

Edited September 15, 2023 by paigow

[Morrigan2575]

4 hours ago, paigow said:

She definitely has some unresolved rage issues with them

I don't think she did, at least with Yoda. I remember when she saw him in the Jedi Temple in Rebels she seemed happy to see him.

Ahsoka/Obi-Wan didn't really have a good relationship, which always seemed odd to me.

Not to say she didn't have a right to be pissed, they did her dirty.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

I don't think that was "Force Ghost" Anakin. The only time we canonically see him is at the end of ROTJ when he was 'good' again. This vision of Anakin is both "Anakin" and "Darth Vader". Force Ghost Anakin left Vader behind, and I don't think at that point would be so tough with her. 

[Kel Varnsen]

4 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't think that was "Force Ghost" Anakin. The only time we canonically see him is at the end of ROTJ when he was 'good' again. This vision of Anakin is both "Anakin" and "Darth Vader". Force Ghost Anakin left Vader behind, and I don't think at that point would be so tough with her. 

That makes sense. You're right if it was force ghost he wouldn't be turning into Vader I don't think. So then is this in Ahsoka's head or something else, like to do with the force or something (like how Luke has the vision in the cave in Empire).

Edited September 16, 2023 by Kel Varnsen

[DoctorAtomic]

She's going through some stuff. 

[tv-talk]

The thing is, she should be dead unless that whole thing with Anakin happened for real. And the point seemed to be that she needs to fully embrace her warrior side.

On another note, as someone who hasn't watched Rebels, can't say I like Sabine at all! She watched Ahsoka die and then just turned the map over. Isn't that traitor-y?

[dwmarch]

Sabine's other option was to die so I think staying alive so she could tag along with Baylan was the best of very sparse options. I also think Baylan was using the Force on her to convince her. How does he know who Ezra is or that this relationship is meaningful to Sabine?

We also see that when Baylan destroys the map he has to run it through with a lightsaber and then hold it there for several seconds. Based on that, it seems likely that Baylan told Sabine to go ahead and shoot the map because he already knew her little pew-pew gun wasn't even going to scratch the paint. Sabine must have figured that out too so between that and the non-Jedi mind tricks it became clear that she wasn't going to win this one at that particular moment.

[DoctorAtomic]

31 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

How does he know who Ezra is or that this relationship is meaningful to Sabine?

I only watched the episodes once, but I think the baby sith infiltrated Sabine's domicile and saw the recording with Ezra. So she would have reported that back to Baylan.

There's more of a dramatic impact if Baylan, with that intelligence, doesn't use the force on Sabine and just says, "this is the only way you'll be able to find Ezra". Sure, he's  got some advanced knowledge, but he gives his word to her, and it came across to me as legitimate. I think he thought that she could destroy the map. He doesn't need her to come along, so why waste time? 

He could have just force pulled the map out of her hand; clearly, having her give it over willingly was a key plot point. 

 

 

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, dwmarch said:

How does he know who Ezra is or that this relationship is meaningful to Sabine?

We've seen plenty of times before that both jedi and sith can read minds.

[tv-talk]

11 hours ago, dwmarch said:

Sabine must have figured that out too so between that and the non-Jedi mind tricks it became clear that she wasn't going to win this one at that particular moment.

Idk, to me it seemed as if she made the decision that saving Ezra or seeing him again was more important than stopping Morgon and Baylan from using their super wormhole thingamabob. Ahsoka had asked Sabine at least twice "can i count on you?" and it turned out she couldnt. Again I havent watched Rebels, but I think the story arc here is that Sabine is so conflicted but in the end she does the right thing of course.

I also think in their next encounter Baylin will be surprised at how well Ahsoka fights after her little whatever that was with Anakin, but again, we'll see.

[Mrs. Stanwyck]

Quote

Nice that we got mention of Leia, but I wonder if we'll ever see her.

I completely missed it - what was Leia reference?

[norcalgal]

1 hour ago, Mrs. Stanwyck said:

I completely missed it - what was Leia reference?

Something about “Senator Organa” holding off the Senate/New Republic regarding Hera’s unsanctioned mission. I just remember the “Senator Organa” part more than what came after 

[DoctorAtomic]

I think Mon Mothma said to Hera over the hologram.

 

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, norcalgal said:

Something about “Senator Organa” holding off the Senate/New Republic regarding Hera’s unsanctioned mission. I just remember the “Senator Organa” part more than what came after 

It was at one of the points when Captain Carson told Hera they needed to get back. He basically said Senator Organa's bullshitting could only hold off the other senators for so long.

[Fool to cry]

 

 

[johntfs]

On 9/15/2023 at 3:25 PM, DoctorAtomic said:

I don't think that was "Force Ghost" Anakin. The only time we canonically see him is at the end of ROTJ when he was 'good' again. This vision of Anakin is both "Anakin" and "Darth Vader". Force Ghost Anakin left Vader behind, and I don't think at that point would be so tough with her. 

It's not like we have "Force Ghost" powers manual or something.  Maybe FG Anakin took up the mask of Vader to help his former apprentice beat down her demons and return to the fights in the living world stronger and more centered.

 

On 9/16/2023 at 12:43 PM, tv-talk said:

The thing is, she should be dead unless that whole thing with Anakin happened for real. And the point seemed to be that she needs to fully embrace her warrior side.

On another note, as someone who hasn't watched Rebels, can't say I like Sabine at all! She watched Ahsoka die and then just turned the map over. Isn't that traitor-y?

Sabine had two basic options that she could reasonably attempt in that situation.  Option one: (try to) destroy the map.  Okay, maybe that works and they kill her.  Or maybe that works and they don't kill her but instead combine the powers of two Force users (Baylan Skoll and Shin Hati) along with that of someone who's at least adjacent to that (Morgan Elspeth).  The combined power then rips an image of the map from Sabine's living brain, probably leaving her a mindless sack of meat in so doing.  Option one sucks IMHO.

Option two was doing what she did.  Now, she's alive and with a functioning brain and mind.  Baylan, by his word of honor, which he takes seriously, is obligated to protect her, which could sow dissension between him and Morgan.  They're also taking her to Ezra, who might not have been at Ahsoka levels, but is still a capable force user.  Plus, she cares about Ezra.  He's her little brother from a non-Mando mother.

Sometimes you can't get the win have to try to save who you can. 

Edited September 20, 2023 by johntfs

[DoctorAtomic]

3 minutes ago, johntfs said:

It's not like we have "Force Ghost" powers manual or something.  Maybe FG Anakin took up the mask of Vader to help his former apprentice beat down her demons and return to the fights in the living world stronger and more centered.

My point there was that if it was the Force Ghost Anakin, I'm doubtful he'd revist the Vader side so effortlessly to teach that particular lesson. He'd be all light side, and that's not what I'm getting from Ahoka. Everyone is calling her the 'gray jedi', and Baylan even said she's more like Anakin than she wants to be. 

I was informed that the sweet move of Ahsoka disarming Anakin is the same move Anakin used to disarm Dooku. 

[Kel Varnsen]

41 minutes ago, johntfs said:

It's not like we have "Force Ghost" powers manual or something.  Maybe FG Anakin took up the mask of Vader to help his former apprentice beat down her demons and return to the fights in the living world stronger and more centered.

 

Sabine had two basic options that she could reasonably attempt in that situation.  Option one: (try to) destroy the map.  Okay, maybe that works and they kill her.  Or maybe that works and they don't kill her but instead combine the powers of two Force users (Baylan Skoll and Shin Hati) along with that of someone who's at least adjacent to that (Morgan Elspeth).  The combined power then rips an image of the map from Sabine's living brain, probably leaving her a mindless sack of meat in so doing.  Option one sucks IMHO.

Option two was doing what she did.  Now, she's alive and with a functioning brain and mind.  Baylan, by his word of honor, which he takes seriously, is obligated to protect her, which could sow dissension between him and Morgan.  They're also taking her to Ezra, who might not have been at Ahsoka levels, but is still a capable force user.  Plus, she cares about Ezra.  He's her little brother from a non-Mando mother.

Sometimes you can't get the win have to try to save who you can. 

There is also Option 3, when the evil Jedi dude lowers his lightsaber you shoot him in the head. 

[call me ishmael]

What I want to know is whether Ashoka the White is going to tell Sarubaylan that his lightsaber is broken and cast him down.

Edited September 20, 2023 by call me ishmael
Spelling

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

My point there was that if it was the Force Ghost Anakin, I'm doubtful he'd revist the Vader side so effortlessly to teach that particular lesson. He'd be all light side, and that's not what I'm getting from Ahoka. Everyone is calling her the 'gray jedi', and Baylan even said she's more like Anakin than she wants to be. 

I was informed that the sweet move of Ahsoka disarming Anakin is the same move Anakin used to disarm Dooku. 

It's not like we haven't seen Light-siders use "the Dark Side" to teach.  Recall Yoda with Luke and the evil tree.  It really doesn't matter who "Anakin" was, whether he was the real deal, Ahsoka's brain hallucinating while shutting down or one of Yoda's farts that achieved sentience.

What was the end result?  The end result was Ahsoka getting back in the fight with renewed purpose.  That seems like a pretty Anakin-style goal from what we've seen of him in Clone Wars.

 

7 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

There is also Option 3, when the evil Jedi dude lowers his lightsaber you shoot him in the head. 

Assuming he doesn't feel your intent to do that through the Force and react quickly enough to send your blaster bolt back to burn your own face off, sure.

Edited September 20, 2023 by johntfs

[tv-talk]

18 hours ago, johntfs said:

Sometimes you can't get the win have to try to save who you can. 

Nah, she wasnt thinking in that fashion at all. As Thrawn said, she simply put the fate of the entire galaxy below her desire to hopefully find her friend- who she didnt even know was actually alive.  She watched Ahsoka die then just handed over the map and went willingly with the baddies because he mentioned Ezra. Isnt that exactly the type of decision that prevents someone from becoming a Jedi as Ahsoka seemed to be getting at earlier in the episode?

[Kel Varnsen]

10 hours ago, johntfs said:

Assuming he doesn't feel your intent to do that through the Force and react quickly enough to send your blaster bolt back to burn your own face off, sure.

Of course if trained Jedi were good at that then a lot more would have survived at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

[johntfs]

21 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

Nah, she wasnt thinking in that fashion at all. As Thrawn said, she simply put the fate of the entire galaxy below her desire to hopefully find her friend- who she didnt even know was actually alive.  She watched Ahsoka die then just handed over the map and went willingly with the baddies because he mentioned Ezra. Isnt that exactly the type of decision that prevents someone from becoming a Jedi as Ahsoka seemed to be getting at earlier in the episode?

Absolutely.  Especially the Old Republic Jedi, which Ahsoka was trained as.  They were all about avoiding messy emotional attachments that could impair calm, logical thinking.  What happened to them again?  Oh yeah, wiped out except for a few scattered survivors.

16 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Of course if trained Jedi were good at that then a lot more would have survived at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

They were that good at that.  We've seen plenty of examples of them being that good at that.  However, quantity is also a quality.  Blocking/redirecting a clone trooper's blaster shot was trivial for a trained Jedi.  Blocking/redirecting a thousand of them being fired at them all at once was a little different story.

[wknt3]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Of course if trained Jedi were good at that then a lot more would have survived at the end of Revenge of the Sith.

 

48 minutes ago, johntfs said:

They were that good at that.  We've seen plenty of examples of them being that good at that.  However, quantity is also a quality.  Blocking/redirecting a clone trooper's blaster shot was trivial for a trained Jedi.  Blocking/redirecting a thousand of them being fired at them all at once was a little different story.

It's also been established that there is an element of trust involved as well - unless you were exceptionally attuned to the force (i.e. Yoda) you were vulnerable to a surprise attack from a trusted ally (such as your clone troopers under your command) whereas you would easily deflect the same from a stranger or enemy. So it's not just a matter of numbers (although that did play a role) it's a matter of not having their guard up.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, wknt3 said:

So it's not just a matter of numbers (although that did play a role) it's a matter of not having their guard up.

Anakin actually inadvertently prepared Ahsoka for 100s of troopers too. 

2 hours ago, johntfs said:

Absolutely.  Especially the Old Republic Jedi, which Ahsoka was trained as.  They were all about avoiding messy emotional attachments that could impair calm, logical thinking.  What happened to them again?  Oh yeah, wiped out except for a few scattered survivors.

I'm in agreement here and just adding. Maybe letting your chosen one get married as an exception isn't a bad idea? She's a nice girl, and most of them liked her.

It's been a long time now since Ahsoka walked away from the order. It's almost as much to say she's been not a Jedi longer than she was a Jedi (padawan). I know in the episode Ahsoka said, 'we have to be prepared to give up on Ezra', and I remarked at the time that I thought it was premature.

I also have to call out Ahsoka being a little ooc here because she's not the detached Jedi, or ever has been, and throwing in with Baylan to get to Thrawn to get to Ezra is a wildly reckless plan that was just another Tuesday for her and Anakin during the Clone Wars. Kind of like jumping into a space whale's mouth and hoping for the best. I mean, come on, girl. Expecting that from Sabine is obtuse at best, unless that was the plan all along.

There's no guarantee you blow up the map and Thrawn doesn't find his way back anyway. Unless Ezra is with him, then you're out. Thrawn is ruthless and would sacrifice his own forces in a battle for gaining enemy intelligence. Throwing in with Baylan to get to your objective is exactly something Thrawn might do. She secured his word to not be harmed without conceding the same. Studying your adversaries literally in the same room as you is risky but not dumb. She's got beef with Thrawn anyway. 

[tv-talk]

2 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

She secured his word to not be harmed without conceding the same. Studying your adversaries literally in the same room as you is risky but not dumb. She's got beef with Thrawn anyway. 

As someone who has never seen the character before, to me it sounds as if you guys are making excuses for her based on however she was in Rebels and that well-deserved affinity fans have for her. Which is understandable! However the way it played out in this show, she tried to kill Baylin and also clearly thought she could shoot the map and destroy it. She didnt shoot it though because Baylin mentioned Ezra- and the chance to save him or see him again was more important than the supposed fate of the entire galaxy. The whole point of Ahsoka asking her twice if she could be counted on was Ahsoka questioning whether she would put possibly finding Ezra above the larger issue of saving the galaxy from another war...and that's exactly what she did. Remember, she gave up and went with Baylin without actually knowing that Ezra was alive nor that Baylin would honor anything she said. Her desire to see and save Ezra overrode everything else.

[DoctorAtomic]

I think many of us are entirely basing our comments on having watched Rebels for sure. I wouldn't say I was excusing her actions though. I was expecting something like that to happen. Also factor in that she thought Ashoka was gone too. Rash? Perhaps. OOC? Perhaps not. I don't know if that's fair to the rest of the viewing audience that hasn't watched Rebels either. 

I think my point that Ahsoka is expecting a teenager to weigh galactic decisions was wishful thinking at best.

[paigow]

Hope & Faith are the LucasFilm cornerstones... Sabine is betting on a longshot... like young Princess Leia did  

[tv-talk]

7 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think my point that Ahsoka is expecting a teenager to weigh galactic decisions was wishful thinking at best.

Fair enough! I just felt like having been told she wanted to be a Jedi and was a Mando...that simply giving up like that was strange thing to do given the archetypes of Jedis and Mandos...but it could very well turn out she had a plan in mind.

[MissLucas]

I cut Sabine some slack. She's lost her biological family, had a fall-out with Ahsoka (who she now thinks is also dead) and is clearly no longer in contact with Hera and Zeb who have both moved on. Bringing Ezra back seems to be the one thing in her live she clings to above everything else and Baylan played her like a fiddle.

[ribboninthesky1]

14 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think my point that Ahsoka is expecting a teenager to weigh galactic decisions was wishful thinking at best.

Never watched Rebels, so I had no idea Sabine is supposed to be a teenager on this show.  The actress reads to me as much older - late 20s to early 30s.  

[norcalgal]

2 hours ago, ribboninthesky1 said:

Never watched Rebels, so I had no idea Sabine is supposed to be a teenager on this show.  The actress reads to me as much older - late 20s to early 30s.  

This!  I think Sabine was a teen on Rebels, but some years are supposed to have passed since the end of Rebels/beginning of Asohka, so Sabine should no longer be a teen.  Early-mid 20s, maybe?

[DoctorAtomic]

I wouldn't put her past 23 at the oldest, but my point about Ahsoka expecting her to just obliterate her only shot at Ezra is still apt. 

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, norcalgal said:

This!  I think Sabine was a teen on Rebels, but some years are supposed to have passed since the end of Rebels/beginning of Asohka, so Sabine should no longer be a teen.  Early-mid 20s, maybe?

She should be in her early 30s. Ezra was the same age as Luke and Leia, and Sabine was a couple years older than Ezra. This series seems to be taking place after The Mandalorian, or at the very least after we last saw Ahsoka with Luke during The Book of Boba Fett. The Mandalorian was supposed to have started about 8 years after Return of the Jedi, which was at least 3 years after A New Hope, when Luke and Leia were 19. So depending on how much time passed during The Mandalorian and where this slots in, Sabine should be in the range of 33 or so. She does seem to have regressed somewhat, though. She had to grow up early and fast and was living basically an adult life as a teen, then I guess after the war was more or less set adrift, having lost her real family, her home world, and most of her surrogate family, so it makes sense for her to now be functioning like a teen, emotionally. Reuniting with Ahsoka and Hera might have been like when you visit your parents as an adult and find yourself reverting to teen mode.

[DoctorAtomic]

I could buy that too. 

[Fool to cry]