Napoleon (2023)

[SeanC]

Sir Ridley Scott is somehow still able to get studios to give him enormous sums to fund historical epics despite audiences having mostly (sadly) deserted that genre in the past decade or so. We should all be thankful for his salesmanship.

[Anduin]

Looks interesting. I don't know much about the Napoleonic Wars. However, the trailer left me with two urges. The first, watch Waterloo on YT. The problem with that, I'd be spoiling myself for the end of the story! The other, listen to Mike Duncan discuss the French Revolution again. However, I don't have 600 spare hours. There are other things to occupy my time and ears. Anyway, at this stage it looks good.

But for those who do know about Napoleon's career, which battle is that towards the end? With the cannons firing into the ice and all.

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Anduin said:

But for those who do know about Napoleon's career, which battle is that towards the end? With the cannons firing into the ice and all.

That is a famous, if oft-contested, anecdote from the Battle of Austerlitz (also called the Battle of the Three Emperors), where Napoleon defeated the larger combined armies of the Russian Tsar and the Emperor of Austria. Typically considered his masterpiece battle.

[Anduin]

21 minutes ago, SeanC said:

That is a famous, if oft-contested, anecdote from the Battle of Austerlitz (also called the Battle of the Three Emperors), where Napoleon defeated the larger combined armies of the Russian Tsar and the Emperor of Austria. Typically considered his masterpiece battle.

Thanks!

[Tom Holmberg]

Phoenix is the same age as Napoleon when he died which makes it hard to accept him in the earlier scenes. Napoleon wasn't that as much of a RBF sufferer as portrayed. Besides the Austerlitz ice thing, Napoleon wasn't at the execution of Marie Antoinette (why is that even in the movie?) and he didn't shoot the Pyramids (or the Sphinx).   It looks like its going to be basically the totally evil Napoleon depiction.

Edited July 11, 2023 by Tom Holmberg

[Tom Holmberg]

The best Napoleon movie is the 1927 silent version directed by Abel Gance.  I saw the Francis Ford Coppola version in a theater with a full orchestra.  It occasionally shows up at universities or art houses.  Supposedly a remastered (or re-remasterd) version is due out on Netflix in the near? future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoléon_(1927_film)

 

[BooBear]

I am a little worried about it. What I know of Napoleon doesn't seem to be in this movie. To me it looks like they cast people and then wrote a movie to show them off. Screw history. 

[Blergh]

10 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

The best Napoleon movie is the 1927 silent version directed by Abel Gance.  I saw the Francis Ford Coppola version in a theater with a full orchestra.  It occasionally shows up at universities or art houses.  Supposedly a remastered (or re-remasterd) version is due out on Netflix in the near? future.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Napoléon_(1927_film)

 

It was a silent movie cinematic masterpiece in terms of techniques and storytelling but,IMO,shilly proganda instead of having more than the slightest resemblance to Nap's actual history!

Edited July 14, 2023 by Blergh
Vital missing letter

[Tom Holmberg]

6 hours ago, Blergh said:

It was a silent movie cinematic masterpiece in terms of techniques and storytelling but,IMO,shilly proganda instead of having more than the slightest resemblance to Nap's actual history!

I don't agree, but you are right, cinematically it's a masterpiece.  The triptych really stuns when seen on the big screen.

Edited July 14, 2023 by Tom Holmberg

[JustHereForFood]

I liked the 2002 miniseries with Christian Clavier.

When movies want to cover that much of history, I prefer it when they take the appropriate time to do it properly, instead of rushing through everything.

[ursula]

I'm just confused why he isn't short. 

Edited July 15, 2023 by ursula

[GHScorpiosRule]

35 minutes ago, ursula said:

I'm just confused why he isn't short. 

Seriously! I remember how both The Flinstones  and Bugs Bunny  made hay of that. Oh, wait. The Flintstones  had Christopher Columbus.😂😂😂

Anyone remember that hideous mini-series with Armand Assante?

That said, as much as I don’t like Joaquin, the trailer has me…intrigued. 

[SeanC]

5 hours ago, ursula said:

I'm just confused why he isn't short. 

Napoleon was not actually short, he was of average height for the period. The notion that he was tiny was a caricature created by British cartoonists during the Napoleonic Wars that has stuck around ever since.

[Tom Holmberg]

23 hours ago, ursula said:

I'm just confused why he isn't short. 

Napoleon was average sized for the time, 5' 6".  In fact, that was the average height of British soldiers in WWI.  One issue was that his height was given in French measurements and people didn't convert them to English measurements.  The other issue was that British propagandists wanted to portray Napoleon as puny.

 

On 7/15/2023 at 10:22 AM, JustHereForFood said:

I liked the 2002 miniseries with Christian Clavier.

When movies want to cover that much of history, I prefer it when they take the appropriate time to do it properly, instead of rushing through everything.

Spielberg is working on a Napoleon miniseries based on Kubrick's research.  At least he won't be rushing through Napoleon's life.

22 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Seriously! I remember how both The Flinstones  and Bugs Bunny  made hay of that. Oh, wait. The Flintstones  had Christopher Columbus.😂😂😂

Anyone remember that hideous mini-series with Armand Assante?

That said, as much as I don’t like Joaquin, the trailer has me…intrigued. 

That was the one where the Infernal Machine assassins lit the bomb with a cigarette lighter!

[ursula]

On 7/15/2023 at 5:52 PM, SeanC said:

Napoleon was not actually short, he was of average height for the period. The notion that he was tiny was a caricature created by British cartoonists during the Napoleonic Wars that has stuck around ever since.

No smoke without fire, I still say. I’m sure British propaganda has made fun of a lot of their enemies… why is this particular rumour the only one that stuck? 😂😂😂 On a more serious note, I think Dinklage would have killed this role.

[BetterButter]

 

[Tom Holmberg]

"War Pigs" on the soundtrack?  Really?  Doesn't make me more hopeful about this movie.

[Fool to cry]

 

 

[Tom Holmberg]

He told people who point out errors in the movie to "get a life."  That pretty much sums up how accurate its going to be.

[scarynikki12]

I had exactly zero interest in this movie. This review makes me want to see it.

 

[methodwriter85]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:39 AM, Tom Holmberg said:

Phoenix is the same age as Napoleon when he died which makes it hard to accept him in the earlier scenes. Napoleon wasn't that as much of a RBF sufferer as portrayed. Besides the Austerlitz ice thing, Napoleon wasn't at the execution of Marie

Which is why they should have cast an older woman as Josephine (say Marion Cotillard or Rachel Weiz) instead of a 30-something. Supposedly they originally cast Jodie Coomer, who would have been 29 when they filmed.

We still have a woman about 15 years younger than Joaquin, which is not what the dynamic was at all between Josephine and Napoleon. 

 

Edited November 18, 2023 by methodwriter85

[Tom Holmberg]

On 11/18/2023 at 12:42 PM, methodwriter85 said:

We still have a woman about 15 years younger than Joaquin, which is not what the dynamic was at all between Josephine and Napoleon. 

It is if you're working to make Napoleon look as bad as possible.  They even have Napoleon hitting Josephine.  IMO Napoleon and Josephine both loved each other, just not to the same degree at the same time. A lot of marriages are like that.

[proserpina65]

On 11/18/2023 at 1:42 PM, methodwriter85 said:

Which is why they should have cast an older woman as Josephine (say Marion Cotillard or Rachel Weiz) instead of a 30-something. Supposedly they originally cast Jodie Coomer, who would have been 29 when they filmed.

We still have a woman about 15 years younger than Joaquin, which is not what the dynamic was at all between Josephine and Napoleon. 

 

Napoleon needed to be played by a younger actor if Scott insisted on covering so many years.

[Tom Holmberg]

The movie is epically bad.  If you knew nothing about Napoleon before seeing the movie, you'll continue to know nothing after seeing it.

[Zella]

On 7/11/2023 at 8:39 AM, Tom Holmberg said:

Phoenix is the same age as Napoleon when he died which makes it hard to accept him in the earlier scenes. Napoleon wasn't that as much of a RBF sufferer as portrayed. Besides the Austerlitz ice thing, Napoleon wasn't at the execution of Marie Antoinette (why is that even in the movie?) and he didn't shoot the Pyramids (or the Sphinx).   It looks like its going to be basically the totally evil Napoleon depiction.

Yeah this sums up my thoughts. I saw it last night. I usually really enjoy Joaquin Phoenix as an actor, but he was a terrible Napoleon. It's like he slept-walk through his rise to power. I have a hard time seeing his character mustering up the energy to get out of bed, let alone conquer half of Europe. They even got his birthdate wrong in the marriage contract scene. What a random weird thing to change. Individual scenes were entertaining and visually it's very impressive, but it was not a great biopic in my opinion, even beyond the historical errors. 

On 11/20/2023 at 12:12 PM, proserpina65 said:

Napoleon needed to be played by a younger actor if Scott insisted on covering so many years.

Yeah I would have been much more interested in a Gladiator-era Joaquin Phoenix depiction of Napoleon. That would have been a much more age-appropriate young Napoleon. 

[Steph J]

11 hours ago, Zella said:

They even got his birthdate wrong in the marriage contract scene. What a random weird thing to change.

IRL both of their dates of birth were fudged on their marriage contract (her age was reduced and his increased), so that might actually have been accurate to what was on the contract, even though it's not accurate to the facts.

I had really high hopes for the movie, but left kind of underwhelmed. In general, I think movies that depict historical figures who had very eventful lives are better served by picking one particular episode and going in depth on it than by trying to capture everything, because you ultimately just end up bouncing from event to event without much context and without really exploring anything.

It's also a very weird (albeit very Hollywood) choice to cast someone as Josephine when she's two decades younger than the actor playing Napoleon, particularly if you're going to depict him as having mommy issues that play into his marital relationship.

[AD35]

On 11/27/2023 at 12:18 AM, Steph J said:

In general, I think movies that depict historical figures who had very eventful lives are better served by picking one particular episode and going in depth on it than by trying to capture everything, because you ultimately just end up bouncing from event to event without much context and without really exploring anything

After watching the movie I got the impression that Napoleon wouldn't even get out of the bed to fart, let alone conquer half of Europe, if he wasn't motivated by his love of Josephine.

[Tom Holmberg]

4 hours ago, AD35 said:

After watching the movie I got the impression that Napoleon wouldn't even get out of the bed to fart, let alone conquer half of Europe, if he wasn't motivated by his love of Josephine.

Although the depiction of Napoleon's and Josephine's relationship is largely ahistorical, its sort of odd that his supposed obsession with his wife is portrayed as largely negative. while her affairs with other men is treated as normal.  If this was reversed, I doubt it would be portrayed that way.

[Linderhill]

I saw it this afternoon and my favorite part was the battle at Waterloo.  Loved seeing the army choreography.  Acting wise, I have gotten really tired of the acting trope of whispering because it's dramatic!  It's not dramatic, it's annoying because you can't understand what they are saying.   

[Tom Holmberg]

On 12/10/2023 at 10:26 PM, Linderhill said:

I saw it this afternoon and my favorite part was the battle at Waterloo.  Loved seeing the army choreography.  Acting wise, I have gotten really tired of the acting trope of whispering because it's dramatic!  It's not dramatic, it's annoying because you can't understand what they are saying.   

Watch the 1970 movie "Waterloo" for a much better look at the battle

[Tom Holmberg]

For those interested, Netflix will be supposedly showing Abel Gance's 1927 7-hour silent Napoleon movie in July 2024. I saw the 3+ -hour version with a live orchestra in Chicago back in the 1980s. 

[Spartan Girl]

Now that it’s free on AppleTV, I’m watching. I’m not impressed. Not even the costumes are pretty enough to make up for it.

I did NOT need to see Marie Antoinette getting beheaded in such graphic detail. Or that poor horsie getting its guts blown out underneath Napoleon. Or Napoleon…how shall I put this delicately…”knocking on the back door.”

Speaking of Josephine, they made her look like Fantine in Les Miz when she first meets him at the survivor’s ball. I know she just got out of prison but still!

And Joaquin is STILL too tall to play Napoleon. Perhaps I’m still bitter over his Joker win (and the fact they’re giving us a sequel 🤮) but he’s overrated to me.

[tv echo]

From what I've read, Napoleon was six years younger than Josephine...

The Real History Behind Empress Joséphine in Ridley Scott’s ‘Napoleon’
Nathan Smith   November 21, 2023
https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/the-real-history-behind-empress-josephine-in-ridley-scotts-napoleon-180983290/ 

Quote

Joséphine was born Marie Josèphe Rose Tascher de la Pagerie on June 23, 1763, on the French-held island of Martinique. The daughter of a penniless aristocrat, she married the nobleman and future politician Alexandre de Beauharnais in 1779, moving to Paris to be with him. The marriage produced two children, Eugène and Hortense.
*  *  *
It was Napoleon who first gave his new love the name “Joséphine,” an appellation derived from her second Christian name. (Sigmund Freud later claimed this nickname had psychoanalytic value due to its association with Napoleon’s brother, Joseph Bonaparte: “By virtue of the name [Joséphine], he could transfer to her a part of the tender feelings he reserved for his eldest brother,” the neurologist wrote.) Napoleon was totally smitten, but his family was firmly against the marriage, viewing Joséphine as immodest and too old for him. Despite these objections, the general wed her in a civil ceremony in March 1796. Both faked their ages on the marriage certificate, with Joséphine taking four years off (to 28) and Napoleon adding 18 months (to 26 and a half).
*  *  *
On May 29, 1814, Joséphine died at age 50 at her estate. Though she hadn’t seen Napoleon in several years, she’d reportedly kept abreast of his military movements and political conquests, including the failed campaign against Russia that marked “the beginning of the end” for the emperor, in the words of his former foreign minister. As for Napoleon, Joséphine never escaped his mind entirely—or so the legend goes. When the fallen ruler died in exile in 1821 at age 51, the last word he uttered was supposedly the name he’d given his great love: “Joséphine.”

I also think Joaquin Phoenix is an overrated actor. I thought his late brother River Phoenix was a much better, more subtle actor (example: Running on Empty). If River had lived, he would've had a great career.

Edited March 2 by tv echo

[Spartan Girl]

5 hours ago, tv echo said:

I also think Joaquin Phoenix is an overrated actor. I thought his late brother River Phoenix was a much better, more subtle actor (example: Running on Empty). If River had lived, he would've had a great career.

I agree, though I do feel bad for thinking that way because whatever I think of Joaquin, I know that watching his brother OD in front of him was a horrible, traumatizing moment that’s never left him.

[Spartan Girl]

On 11/25/2023 at 2:11 PM, Tom Holmberg said:

The movie is epically bad.  If you knew nothing about Napoleon before seeing the movie, you'll continue to know nothing after seeing it.

The Powerpuff Girls taught us more about Napoleon than Ridley Scott did in nearly three hours.

 

[BetterButter]

 

[Tom Holmberg]

On 8/29/2024 at 3:03 PM, BetterButter said:

 

Considering how bad the movie is, I doubt having even more of it will help.

[proserpina65]

Yay!  Even more of a badly miscast Joaquin Phoenix to not love!

[Tom Holmberg]

I'm waiting for the 7-hour silent Abel Gance "Napoleon" from 1927. I saw the shorter version (3+ hours) released in the early 1980s with a live orchestra at the ornate Chicago theater.

 

Edited September 6 by Tom Holmberg