S07.E06: Where the Waters Meet

[Athena]

Quote

Jamie and Claire help civilians flee Ticonderoga after the fort falls into British hands. Roger discovers the identity of the mysterious "Nuckelavee".

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Posts may be removed without warning.

[Hanahope]

ok, was I supposed to recognize the guy Roger confronted (the knucklevee)?  I did not, but i don't always recall a character seen once or twice over several seasons.  and well the long hair, beard, make it difficult to recognize anyone.

I liked how Roger is getting back into teaching, make him feel useful.  and the idea for a novel, hah!   at least Bree told him about the maybe portal.  she didn't see the one in the Caribbean, so this was her first encounter.  

Williams gives Ian his one 'life for a life'.  yeah, i can see that coming back in some way, there will be another confrontation, i'm sure.

too bad that one colonist caused Claire to be captured, but at least she tried to make Walter's last day or two a little easier.  poor guy.  i wonder if she could have done more had they not been prisoners.  

and looks like Scotland is going to be delayed again.  do we have any belief Jamie being a rifleman will keep him out of the direct conflict?  yeah, sure.  

here i thought william would have kept the notes on his person, not on his horse.  maybe he'll learn from that mistake.  

Edited July 21, 2023 by Hanahope

[Ziggy]

21 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

Williams gives Ian his one 'life for a life'.  yeah, i can see that coming back in some way, there will be another confrontation, i'm sure.

The Outlander universe is very, very small.  It seems guaranteed that the cousins will see each other again.

[Lola82]

I really enjoyed the William/Ian/Claire confrontation. And, in general, Ian somehow became one of my favorite characters.

I don’t think we’re supposed to know who that guy was but from Roger’s reaction, I thought for a sec that it was himself from the past.

Edit: just rewatched the scene and it almost looks like a grown up Jemmy! That would be interesting.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Lola82

[Hanahope]

3 minutes ago, Lola82 said:

Edit: just rewatched the scene and it almost looks like a grown up Jemmy! That would be interesting.

oh definitely.  can someone be in two places at the same time?  that's not happened before that i can recall, since the timelines seem to run parallel (i.e. exactly 200 years apart - except for Gilles' extra ingredient). so i don't know that Jemmy could go to a specific time.

OTOH, i wonder a bit how it works for the two kids.  Bree and Roger were born in the 20th century, went back to the 18th century, and then 'returned' to the 20th.  (same for claire - who then went back to the 18th again)) both kids were born in the 18th century, so shouldn't they have really gone back 200 years to the 16th century when they touched the stones for their first trip? Isn't that what someone in the 18th century told Claire the song said, when claire first learned she could travel back to her original time?  certainly Bree and Roger might have "overroad" that default with holding hands and having 'stronger thoughts' than the young children maybe?  maybe that is why they don't want to risk traveling through the stones again, because the kids are older and might have their own thoughts now?

[HerkyJerky]

3 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Bruce's

Walter

[Hanahope]

thank you.  edited it to fix.

[mythoughtis]

5 hours ago, Hanahope said:

ok, was I supposed to recognize the guy Roger confronted (the knucklevee)?  I did not, but i don't always recall a character seen once or twice over several seasons.  and well the long hair, beard, make it difficult to recognize anyone.

I didn’t recognize him.  I wonder if it could be one of Dougal and Gillis’s ( spelling) grandchildren.  They could be time travelers.  

[DoctorAtomic]

*Of course* Claire stomps off after someone who should have been left, and of course she's abducted. Again. Of course, Claire essentially just assumes command. 

I thought William had the letters in his jacket. I guess he did lose them after all. 

Finally Bree gets around to telling Roger about the portal. Finally Roger gets something constructive to do besides moping. It was nice that so many people, young and old, showed up for the class. Finally we see the intruder! 

I'm not married, but even I know you don't make plans to have someone over without checking with your wife first. So does everyone else; so when you say it, they know that's a legitimate reply. 

I liked the whole Jamie and Young Ian Predator plot, all hunting around in the woods. I'm not sure why they went to the trouble of abducting Claire only to rescue her 20 minutes later. If it's only to get William and Young Ian in a scene, I'm all for it. 

I liked how when Young Ian and Rachel were laying on the heavy flirt, the dog was all, "Yes, pet me. Both of you."

I also laughed when Jamie was carrying the turkey he hunted that I thought he probably ends up inventing Thanksgiving. 

I don't quite understand why Jamie "can't walk away". He isn't disputing Claire's account of history. Him being there isn't going to change the outcome either way. This was the whole tragedy of the first two seasons. It's not like Jamie being there at the Battle of Saratoga is crucial to the Revolution. He can walk right away and everything is going to unfold as we know it. tbh, I'm not super interested in Jamie as part of the Revolution proper. I've said plenty of times that seeing the Revolution from the southern pov is more interesting to me since I've never seen it on tv. I think it's a weak out in terms of plot. You could have William stationed in the south just as easily as in the north. 

8 hours ago, Hanahope said:

at least Bree told him about the maybe portal.  she didn't see the one in the Caribbean, so this was her first encounter.  

I said that today in the E5 thread. That she might not have known what she was experiencing. We know it's a portal. She didn't. Credit though, they reasoned it out. So it would seem that with these 'lay lines' there could be portals all over. 

7 hours ago, Hanahope said:

Isn't that what someone in the 18th century told Claire the song said, when claire first learned she could travel back to her original time? 

Yes, I've said the same. They're not holding too fast to any rules at this point.

Whoever the guy was, Roger recognized him enough to punch him out. I just watched now, and rewatched the scene. Roger looks at him like he knows the guy. (If you look up this episode on imdb, it tells you who the character is. imdb also lists Young Ian as Young Ian.)

I also like how Simon Fraser is Angus Macfadyen because he was such a character on the show about Washington's spy ring that 9 of us enjoyed a while back on here. 

They're zipping along this season!

[mythoughtis]

12 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Whoever the guy was, Roger recognized him enough to punch him out. I just watched now, and rewatched the scene. Roger looks at him like he knows the guy. (If you look up this episode on imdb, it tells you who the character is. imdb also lists Young Ian as Young Ian.)

The internet knows all…. And I was close in my guess 

[DoctorAtomic]

We all speculated that it wasn't any random vagrant. 

[Glade]

Of course Jaimie and Claire had to have their regular dramatic separation and reunion.  If Roger and Bree ever go back in time, they can tell their parents about Margaret Thatcher.   But Claire did get my hopes up that they would actually depart for Scotland soon.

Ian and Rachel continue to be sweet together, and I absolutely approve of their bonding over a dog, even if the blackberries in that scene were very obviously potted plants with tiny, well-pruned bushes, not the sprawling thickets of blackberries, black raspberries, red raspberries...that would be prevalent in the wild in that region.

Seeing Roger give his class was great, I hope he can turn it into a more permanent position. Honestly for a moment I thought Rob Cameron must be the knucklevalee/a fellow traveler after that interesting interaction.  If that's who I think it is, it must be horrifying for Roger to see him show up like this after what he did; I'm glad he got a good punch in. 

Edited July 22, 2023 by Glade

[ferjy]

There we go. Bree finally figured it out. About time. A little little slow on the uptake, but got there eventually. 😄

Ian will probably always be my favourite, but I’m quickly warming to William. Any scenes with both of them are a bonus. 

How many times has Claire been abducted now? I’m tired of seeing that plot point. I’m waiting for the day Jamie gets fed up and stops going to the trouble of saving her. “Dinna bother, she’ll only be getting herself caught again tomorrow.”

Well that ending was a major disappointment… who in the world is the time traveller? I can’t see it being Jemmy, why would Roger punch Jemmy (“I told you, no Gaelic!”)? Seems it was supposed to be a great reveal, but ended up a damp squib because it’s someone we haven’t seen before. I thought it was Rupert for a split second! 😀 But I rarely forget a face and I’m pretty sure we’ve never seen this guy before. Why end the episode with the reveal of someone we don’t know?

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by ferjy

[HerkyJerky]

4 hours ago, ferjy said:

How many times has Claire been abducted now? I’m tired of seeing that plot point. I’m waiting for the day Jamie gets fed up and stops going to the trouble of saving her. “Dinna bother, she’ll only be getting herself caught again tomorrow.”

LOL!

[DoctorAtomic]

Did anyone else know about the Battle of Saratoga without looking it up? Claire had a good education. And memory. 

The only battle I know off the top of my head is Yorktown. 

[Hanahope]

Yeah the internet tells who it is, but the actor change meant those of us in this thread wouldn’t know the character.

[DoctorAtomic]

I didn't know who it was either. Clearly, Roger did, so that's why I looked it up. I don't think you can really blame the show. 

[mythoughtis]

7 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I didn't know who it was either. Clearly, Roger did, so that's why I looked it up. I don't think you can really blame the show. 

I do blame the show.  The actor change spoiled the affect, and the writers, director,  etc should have realized this.  They should have had Roger call him by name.  People like us who eventually went on the internet know.  People who haven’t think  the ambiguity is intentional and that revealing it ahead of next week is a spoiler. 

[goldilocks]

16 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I also like how Simon Fraser is Angus Macfadyen because he was such a character on the show about Washington's spy ring that 9 of us enjoyed a while back on here. 

And Robert the Bruce in both Braveheart and Robert the Bruce. That was 4 years ago but he’s changed quite a bit since then and I didn’t even recognize him!

[steph369]

22 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I didn't know who it was either. Clearly, Roger did, so that's why I looked it up. I don't think you can really blame the show. 

 

11 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

I do blame the show.  The actor change spoiled the affect, and the writers, director,  etc should have realized this.  They should have had Roger call him by name.  People like us who eventually went on the internet know.  People who haven’t think  the ambiguity is intentional and that revealing it ahead of next week is a spoiler. 

I absolutely blame the show! I was baffled so looked it up but we shouldn’t have to. It has no impact if you don’t know who it is. There are ways to have identified him, or else don’t end the show with a cliffhanger that makes no sense. 

[ferjy]

6 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Did anyone else know about the Battle of Saratoga without looking it up? Claire had a good education. And memory. 

lol I had a chuckle at that. I think an American would be hard pressed to know it, let alone a Brit. 😄 

 

Edited July 22, 2023 by ferjy

[DoctorAtomic]

I meant not blaming the show for having to recast of the original wasn't available. That's not their fault. I hope they make a joke about it next week. They did that when Spartacus was recast. 

[nara]

I liked the reference to The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. 
That Cameron guy seems creepy. 
Poorly executed return of that Buck MacKenzie guy.

Really enjoyed history class

[Carniwhore]

I think they did a great choice recasting Buck cause I saw who it was right away. Then again I have rewatched the show many times so.. 

[shelen]

Ticonderoga is the Iroquois term for where the waters meet.

[jenn31]

23 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I didn't know who it was either. Clearly, Roger did, so that's why I looked it up. I don't think you can really blame the show. 

Roger knowing doesn’t help us any. I hate having to look things up. The show should provide all the information we need. 

[goldilocks]

21 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I meant not blaming the show for having to recast of the original wasn't available. That's not their fault. I hope they make a joke about it next week. They did that when Spartacus was recast. 

I don’t think anyone is blaming them for recasting it’s the execution that was disappointing. 

[shelen]

When Jaime emerged from the church in season one, episode seven, he saw Claire in her wedding dress, bowed, and said, 'Your servant, madam."

Before William left Claire in this episode, he bowed and said, 'Your servant madam."

Like father, like son.

Sigh.....

[mary2013]

2 hours ago, jenn31 said:

Roger knowing doesn’t help us any. I hate having to look things up. The show should provide all the information we need. 

The character's name was in the closing credits. People could recognize the name of someone who shouldn't be in the 20th century. 

[DoctorAtomic]

I can take the point about the execution though. We've been talking about the 'intruder' for quite a while, and we finally get the reveal, but we're all 'huh?' I suppose they could have has Roger just say his name and then clock him. 

[iMonrey]

2 hours ago, mary2013 said:

The character's name was in the closing credits. People could recognize the name of someone who shouldn't be in the 20th century. 

Who is Buck Mackenzie? I don't recall any such character.

[Ziggy]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Who is Buck Mackenzie? I don't recall any such character.

He was responsible for Roger getting hanged. He is Morag MacKenzie’s husband, and he thought Roger was a bit too friendly with her.

Edited July 24, 2023 by Ziggy

[DoctorAtomic]

Also a descendant of Gellis. 

[Noneofyourbusiness]

43 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Who is Buck Mackenzie? I don't recall any such character.

William Buccleigh "Buck" MacKenzie. The illegitimate son of Dougal MacKenzie and Geillis Duncan, whom she was pregnant with at the witch trail. He was given to MacKenzie cousins to raise. He's Roger's distant ancestor, which is why Roger can travel through the stones. Roger saved his wife Morag and their son Jeremiah (a family name, same as Roger's father and Jemmy) on Stephen Bonnet's ship. Rather than be grateful, Buck got jealous after seeing Roger and Morag hug and had him hanged, leading to Roger losing his singing voice and falling into depression.

On 7/22/2023 at 3:33 PM, mythoughtis said:

I do blame the show.  The actor change spoiled the affect, and the writers, director,  etc should have realized this.  They should have had Roger call him by name.  People like us who eventually went on the internet know.  People who haven’t think  the ambiguity is intentional and that revealing it ahead of next week is a spoiler. 

They should have shown Roger's hanging in the Previouslies. And possibly edited in the new actor's face. Other shows have done that in Previouslies (such as when Anna Sheridan was recast in Babylon 5).

[Noneofyourbusiness]

40 minutes ago, DoctorAtomic said:

Also a descendant of Gellis. 

A very direct descendant, being her son.

[BitterApple]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Who is Buck Mackenzie? I don't recall any such character.

I didn't remember either. I had to Google the whole thing to figure out what everyone was so disappointed about. What a horribly clunky reveal. 

[Hanahope]

and again, kindof screwing up what little information we have about 'the rules' of the stones.  like seriously Buck was thinking about 200 years in the future?  or do we really think he was suddenly thinking of Roger?

[jenn31]

16 hours ago, mary2013 said:

The character's name was in the closing credits. People could recognize the name of someone who shouldn't be in the 20th century. 

Credits aren’t the show itself. That’s tantamount to looking things up. Most people don’t read the credits. It should be clear in the show. 

[iMonrey]

59 minutes ago, jenn31 said:

Credits aren’t the show itself. That’s tantamount to looking things up. Most people don’t read the credits. It should be clear in the show. 

Plus Starz (and all streamers, really) immediately shove the credits aside as soon as they come up and show some kind of promo for something else, so if you don't catch it quickly enough they're gone.

[DoctorAtomic]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

and again, kindof screwing up what little information we have about 'the rules' of the stones.  like seriously Buck was thinking about 200 years in the future?  or do we really think he was suddenly thinking of Roger?

I mean, he could have been thinking of Roger, but we know now the one hard and fast rule of the stones is plot. Or, I could speculate that if you have one ancestor from the 'future', then you can go forwards. Maybe he found Gellis' manual and killed someone. Also, they're related, so whatever. 

They're pushing the limits of timey-wimey. 

[sashabear21]

I know a lot about the Battle of Saratoga, but to be fair I visited the battleground a month ago so I have a head full of knowledge about it. Otherwise I wouldn’t know a damn thing about it! 

[taanja]

On 7/23/2023 at 1:48 PM, jenn31 said:

Roger knowing doesn’t help us any. I hate having to look things up. The show should provide all the information we need. 

I refuse to look things up! I watch the 'show" so i expect it to show me and (tell me) what I need to know.

The whole time travel things just boggles my mind. Mainly because there seems to be no set rules -- some people can travel through time and some can't -- and it seems to depend upon the whims of the author.- nothing more/nothing less.

 

[Ziggy]

On 7/23/2023 at 1:48 PM, jenn31 said:

Roger knowing doesn’t help us any. I hate having to look things up. The show should provide all the information we need. 

 

1 hour ago, taanja said:

I refuse to look things up! I watch the 'show" so i expect it to show me and (tell me) what I need to know.

I didn't think we were supposed to know who that is.  I thought it was a cliff hanger, to be learned in the next episode.

1 hour ago, taanja said:

The whole time travel things just boggles my mind. Mainly because there seems to be no set rules -- some people can travel through time and some can't -- and it seems to depend upon the whims of the author.- nothing more/nothing less.

The show has made it pretty clear that the ability to time travel is hereditary.  As far as when they travel to (how many years) and what else you need to do, Roger is writing his "Hitchhikers Guide to Time Travel," and what fun would that be if we already had all the answers.  I feel like we are supposed to be along for the ride as the characters try to figure it out. 

The only thing we seem to be certain about is that you need a gem stone.  Why different people can travel more or less than the 200 ish years that Claire, Bree and Roger travel is still a mystery.

They've also talked about a blood sacrifice (or was that just creepy Geillis Duncan) and whether or not you need to be thinking of someone.  I think both of those are still up in the air.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

19 hours ago, Ziggy said:

I feel like we are supposed to be along for the ride as the characters try to figure it out.

Which makes sense.

[KittyQ]

On 7/21/2023 at 11:30 AM, Ziggy said:

The Outlander universe is very, very small.  It seems guaranteed that the cousins will see each other again.

Haha! So small... I am amazed in fiction how many times people "come across" relatives and acquaintances (look at Lonesome Dove, for example). In my real life, when I visit my home state (RI) I hardly ever see anyone I know if it isn't on purpose, and that is the smallest state in the union! :-)

[DoctorAtomic]

That's because you only see people from RI when you're not in RI.