S04.E08: Wow

[Cornhusker12]

On 5/29/2023 at 7:20 PM, shapeshifter said:

Considering that Henry Winkler is known to be a really nice guy, I've come up with a possible explanation of what happened "behind the scenes" with Winkler's character, Gene Cousineau, that works with what we saw: 

Gene finds out from his agent Tom that Barry was intending to turn himself in, and Gene also saw that Barry was not armed. 
Gene immediately feels deep remorse, flashing back to his feelings of Barry being like a son to him and a protégé. 

So, for Gene's final act, he claims responsibility for Janice's and Barry's deaths, and then, perhaps with Tom's help and maybe even with Sally getting credit$, gets the "Documentary" made for the sake of Barry's son John, so John might know his father as a better role model than Gene's son had known himself, and so John will not hate his father, and also so John's heart will not be broken by his father.  
 

This is actually where my mind went too, but I don't think we'll ever know for sure!

[Cornhusker12]

On 5/30/2023 at 1:03 PM, meep.meep said:

I thought that Sally's breakdown where she told John she had been a bad mother was the point where she turned things around.  She did realize that she put John into danger.  After that she had the presence of mind to leave Barry in the middle of the night and take John with her.  She rescued herself and her child.  Before that she relied on Barry to take care of her.

Agree. Sally was always SO insecure and self-absorbed, and in previous seasons we saw how much she wanted others to view her as someone who (literally) stood up for herself, left the violent man in her life behind, and in her tv show retelling, saved her child from the violent man in her life too. In that moment, she finally lived up to the person she always wanted (and pretended) to be.

Obviously that doesn't miraculously make her a great person, or a great mom, ESPECIALLY when you factor in the incredible trauma and terror she had gone through in the past 8 years since learning about Barry, killing someone, and then living a bizarre awful fake existence on the run. But it was a moment of clarity! I'd like to think she AT LEAST was able to build a relatively normal, if not perfect or even happy, life from that point with John.

[edhopper]

Gene did not deserve to go to prison for life, another victim of Barry's amorality.

I am not fond of gross miscarriages of justice.

Reminds me of the ending to White Lotus Season 2.

with Tanya's hubby getting away with all the money

[aghst]

Actually Gene ending up in prison is a writing choice, a dubious one.

Barry killed Janice, whose death Gene grieved over.

But her father chose to come up with some unfounded conspiracy theory that Gene got Barry to kill her, which makes no sense, since he lacked motive for wanting Janice dead.

[Nanners]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:27 PM, aghst said:

 

Actually Gene ending up in prison is a writing choice, a dubious one.

Barry killed Janice, whose death Gene grieved over.

But her father chose to come up with some unfounded conspiracy theory that Gene got Barry to kill her, which makes no sense, since he lacked motive for wanting Janice dead.

 

Thank you! The biggest head scratcher for me was how this was at all a viable explanation of events - especially considering how savvy they’ve made Robert Wisdom’s character out to be.  For one thing, Barry was still responsible for several other deaths that the police, including Janice, were uncovering.  I’d have to rewatch, but I can’t imagine rewatching the interactions between Barry, Gene, and Det Moss and see that false narrative clicking together.  Barry gave up so much information but not once did he try to pin his accused charges on the supposedly true perpetrator? And that his own son would be so quick to believe his father a murderer where the explanation of being a fumbling clown shooting wildly out the door while in a state of paranoia is such a more fitting scenario from what he knows of his dad.  

[shapeshifter]

On 6/1/2023 at 10:27 PM, aghst said:

Actually Gene ending up in prison is a writing choice, a dubious one.

Barry killed Janice, whose death Gene grieved over.

But her father chose to come up with some unfounded conspiracy theory that Gene got Barry to kill her, which makes no sense, since he lacked motive for wanting Janice dead.

Speaking of writing choices and lack of motive for Gene to kill Janice:   
Neither Jim nor the police ever suggest: “It’s always the husband/boyfriend/lover.”  
Instead, it’s all about the $25K — which I am completely confused about. 

• Where did the $25K come from?
• Who gave the $25K to whom?
  (in reality, not in Jim’s mind)
• Why was the $25K given? 
  (in reality, not in Jim’s mind or the minds of the police or FBI or anyone else)

[edhopper]

The more I think about it the more I dislike what they did with Gene and the docudrama. It really stinks of the writers just trying to be clever and not true to the characters or the show.

It even took Janice's father, who was always one step ahead of everyone and made him into someone easily duped.

[TVbitch]

What happened to the one detective who showed up last year, figured out it was Barry, found him in the desert and had a gun on him, but then let him go because of their old military ties. Isn't he still around somewhere, and why would he still be protecting Barry now that Barry is dead? 

[shapeshifter]

On 6/7/2023 at 11:15 PM, TVbitch said:

What happened to the one detective who showed up last year, figured out it was Barry, found him in the desert and had a gun on him, but then let him go because of their old military ties. Isn't he still around somewhere, and why would he still be protecting Barry now that Barry is dead? 

Same reason. Loyalty to those who participated in state-sanctioned killing together, perhaps driven by fear/realization that all soldiers who kill could be found guilty of murder, including themselves.

Edited June 9, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Blakeston]

I just watched this, and I'm really wondering what the point was.

Hollywood gets things wrong? Oh my god, alert the press at once!

The only other message I can find is that self-awareness = redemption. Fuches and Sally both acknowledged their shortcomings, so they got to live. But Hank and Gene were too proud, and clung to denial until the bitter end, and paid the price.

But when it came to self-awareness, neither Fuches nor Sally impressed me that much. Fuches accepted that he was a manipulator rather than a tough guy. Okay, great. How about acknowledging that he was a monster who was responsible for the deaths of countless innocent people?

And then Sally admits she's a bad mother (again, no shit) and confesses to killing someone, and thinks she deserves to die because of it? That was self-defense. Someone as narcissistic as Sally wouldn't feel guilt about that. The fact that someone tried to kill her would just add fuel to her victim complex.

It would have meant a lot more to hear her acknowledge that she was a deeply selfish, amoral person who treated the people around her like garbage.

I think there was a certain amount of spite for the audience in Hader's decision-making. "Oh, you like Barry better than Sally, and you love Hank and hate Fuches? I'm going to give you the opposite of what you want, then!"

 

[aghst]

Hader sat down for the Prestige Podcast from The Ringer about episodes 6 and 7.

He said the fact that Gene took the money made him culpable.

You can argue that the looming conviction on the false premise that he hired Barry to kill Janice made him feel he had nothing to lose so he came out firing and killed Barry.

I still don't get how Cousineau's fate is suppose to represent some kind of justice, poetic or actual.

He tried to better himself by going to the kibbutz.  He was tempted back because of the movie and the chance of some big hitters being involved.  So he was fallible which is a personality shortcoming but hardly deserving of being falsely convicted of conspiracy to murder.

[shapeshifter]

On 6/4/2023 at 4:45 AM, shapeshifter said:

Speaking of writing choices and lack of motive for Gene to kill Janice:   
Neither Jim nor the police ever suggest: “It’s always the husband/boyfriend/lover.”  
Instead, it’s all about the $25K — which I am completely confused about. 

• Where did the $25K come from?
• Who gave the $25K to whom?
  (in reality, not in Jim’s mind)
• Why was the $25K given? 
  (in reality, not in Jim’s mind or the minds of the police or FBI or anyone else)

Found the answer on Reddit (reddit.com/r/Barry/comments/13pd7ud/250000_question).
It's from the end of Season 3:

Quote

Barry kidnaps Gene, finally feels bad about it after Gene punches him but thinks Gene will turn him in, goes to Hank cuz he's depressed and Hank has him blow up the Bolivians (Critobal's Father in law aka bomb iphone app scene), is successful, Hank thanks him and gives him 250k for saving Cristobal.

Barry then, in an absurd effort to 'make things right' with Gene, gives him $250k. Gene then keeps the money and presumably gives a decent amount to his son/grandson to get them a good house.

and:

Quote

It’s at the end of season 3

 

[aghst]

Podcast with Hader talking about finale is now out, The Ringer Prestige TV podcast.

Seems mostly content with it.  Says Barry realizes he should turn himself in before Gene shoots him.

But says Barry should have turned himself in after the first scene in the pilot, when he’s in the bedroom.

Then he’d take acting classes in prison.

Does Hader think that would have been as good a show?

He acknowledges the feedback about this season being so “bleak.”

He doesn’t say he rejects fan service out of hand but when they tried some things which could be considered fan service, they pulled it because they didn’t think they were good.

 

Obviously too soon for him to express any regrets.  After all he’s still trying to promote the show, to maximize viewership.

But I wonder if he’ll be as self satisfied in a year or two.  I want to see what he does next but hope that he recaptures the feeling, the right balance of comedy and drama, of the first two seasons.

 

[Blakeston]

It's generally accepted in the business that comedy is a lot harder to pull off successfully than drama. I think Hader basically took the easy way out.

[aghst]

It seems like in the interviews, especially after the first season, Hader and Berg were taking bows for what an inspired show they'd created.

It's doubtful he believed at the time that he though Barry should have turned himself in and he learns about acting while in prison, as he said on the podcast -- not sure how serious he was about that, maybe just an offhand comment.

I still get the sense that the further they got into the show, they felt some responsibility to have the character or characters pay for the acts depicted in the show.

There were several times when Barry could have been caught and put away but they found a humorous way to keep him free, like when the detective offered to let him go if he killed his ex-wife's boyfriend and Barry's reaction was "What!?!"

But that led to some inventive filmmaking, like when he had to fight this guy who was a martial arts expert and then his little daughter came in and she was some ninja, able to climb trees and jump across the air at him.

Or the time they had the long chase sequence, with the motorcycle gang after him while he was on a motorcycle just trying to get to a dinner party with some beignets from that baker who doled out wisdom.

This final season though seemed like all the pigeons coming home to roost, with Barry escaping prison and then living on the run, in a bleak place.  But that wasn't punishment enough, he had to be drawn back, with Moss and the cops still after him and now Hank wanting him dead.

Just wasn't as fun any more.

[heatherchandler]

On 6/12/2023 at 12:31 AM, aghst said:

Just wasn't as fun any more.

That’s it in a nutshell.  And it’s disappointing.  

[30 Helens]

On 6/12/2023 at 12:31 AM, aghst said:

Just wasn't as fun any more.

I don’t think the show was ever meant to be “fun”. It was a character study, with humorous moments mixed in with some very dark stuff, and always had been from the start.

That the show became darker as time went on was a natural evolution. At first, Barry appeared to be a man who had been manipulated into a murdering lifestyle, but was good deep down and wanted to be better. Sally presented as a woman devoted to her craft who was similarly trying to overcome the demons of her past and carve out a brighter future. Gene seemed like a generous man who had been beaten down but was persevering. Hank was a lovable goofball mobster.

But the more we got to know them, the more their true selves emerged, and it became clear how much they were lying to themselves. Barry was a psychopath who was not capable of real change, because he resisted any actual path to redemption. Sally was self defeating, consistently making bad choices out of insecurity and refusing to take responsibility for her failures. Gene was a narcissist who focused only on his own legacy, grasping at any chance he might have at the spotlight. Hank, of course, was a murderer and that is as far from lovable as you can get. There were no heroes here, no good guys.

Fuchs was the only character who remained fairly steady throughout the show’s run. I guess you could call him the control element in this experiment: he knew who he was, and he exited as he came.

There is no way we could come to see the characters as they really were — to see the masks fall off and the lies strip away— without also seeing a darker show. And I, for one, would not have enjoyed seeing the wacky adventures of Hank and Barry providing grins and giggles over four seasons. (I do reject the notion that show lost its sense of humor, though— I laughed out loud several times over the last few episodes.)

The tragedy of Barry, as a character, is that he was destined for this fate. If not at the hands of Gene, then someone else. There was never going to be a happy ending for Barry. I think that anyone who expected something different, or who ever believed this show was actually a comedy, wasn’t watching that closely in the first place.

 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, 30 Helens said:

I don’t think the show was ever meant to be “fun”. It was a character study, with humorous moments mixed in with some very dark stuff, and always had been from the start.

That the show became darker as time went on was a natural evolution. At first, Barry appeared to be a man who had been manipulated into a murdering lifestyle, but was good deep down and wanted to be better. Sally presented as a woman devoted to her craft who was similarly trying to overcome the demons of her past and carve out a brighter future. Gene seemed like a generous man who had been beaten down but was persevering. Hank was a lovable goofball mobster.

But the more we got to know them, the more their true selves emerged, and it became clear how much they were lying to themselves. Barry was a psychopath who was not capable of real change, because he resisted any actual path to redemption. Sally was self defeating, consistently making bad choices out of insecurity and refusing to take responsibility for her failures. Gene was a narcissist who focused only on his own legacy, grasping at any chance he might have at the spotlight. Hank, of course, was a murderer and that is as far from lovable as you can get. There were no heroes here, no good guys.

Fuchs was the only character who remained fairly steady throughout the show’s run. I guess you could call him the control element in this experiment: he knew who he was, and he exited as he came.

There is no way we could come to see the characters as they really were — to see the masks fall off and the lies strip away— without also seeing a darker show. And I, for one, would not have enjoyed seeing the wacky adventures of Hank and Barry providing grins and giggles over four seasons. (I do reject the notion that show lost its sense of humor, though— I laughed out loud several times over the last few episodes.)

The tragedy of Barry, as a character, is that he was destined for this fate. If not at the hands of Gene, then someone else. There was never going to be a happy ending for Barry. I think that anyone who expected something different, or who ever believed this show was actually a comedy, wasn’t watching that closely in the first place.

 

Nice analysis, @30 Helens! 

However, I’m not entirely sure I can agree with your origin story for Barry. 
Would Barry have become a sociopathic killer if he had never been trained to kill as part of being a soldier who experienced combat?  
I’m not sure.  
We never heard mention of (for instance) Barry killing animals as a middle schooler or any other such behavior.

Conversely, wasn’t Gene always a narcissist? 
Maybe not. 🤔 

[30 Helens]

48 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Nice analysis, @30 Helens! 

Thank you!

48 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

However, I’m not entirely sure I can agree with your origin story for Barry. 
Would Barry have become a sociopathic killer if he had never been trained to kill as part of being a soldier who experienced combat?  
I’m not sure.  

Maybe not. I’m sure that was an influence, at the very least. I think Fuchs also contributed to who Barry became.

48 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Conversely, wasn’t Gene always a narcissist? 

I think so.

I was focusing more on who the characters were when we met them vs how they appeared. And I apologize for not making myself clear: When I argued against Barry being manipulated, I meant he wasn’t being manipulated any more. By this time, I think Barry was making his own decisions, including the one to keep killing. Also, if it weren’t already in him to be such a killer, could he have been exploited so easily? In my opinion, the Barry we met was not a good guy, but he seemed more sympathetic because we were buying into the lie he was telling himself.  We just didn’t know better yet.

That’s why I don’t think the show was ever a “comedy” regardless of how it first appeared. Peeling back the layers took four seasons, but I enjoyed the journey. I just wish I hadn’t missed all the good discussion here! I watched the final season over the course of this past week, after rewatching the first three. Maybe seeing the show in a continuum is what gave me a different perspective from some others. Maybe it’s also because I knew going into this that it was going to get very dark (although I did avoid spoilers), so I wasn’t surprised by that. 

Edited July 25, 2023 by 30 Helens

[pachyderm]

On 5/28/2023 at 11:09 PM, sistermagpie said:

 

It didn't have to be, though. Barry would have confessed all and saved him, but Gene chose to kill him and go to jail for both murders, one of which he actually did commit.

"4 parts bad choices..." - @Starchild  

 

Kinda says it all doesn't it? 

[rmontro]

On 5/28/2023 at 10:36 PM, Galileo908 said:

I was NOT expecting Fuches to jump on John during that shootout and just give him back to Barry, then walk off into the night. That just seemed a little too clean. I did like that the show swerved away from another Monastery moment and had Hank and Fuches's men take each other out instead.

I liked the way the one guy used the grenade to take out the last few stragglers.  I have a hard time with Fuches ending up on kind of a high note, since he had managed to consistently draw my hatred through most of the series.

I didn't have much hope for Barry to get out alive, but at least there was a happy ending for John, who got to believe his dad was a hero.  I really enjoyed this show, one of the best series I've seen.