S22.E21: Appraisal

[WendyCR72]

Airing May 11, 2023:

Quote

Cosgrove and Shaw suspect an art dealer was murdered but can't make an arrest until they locate her body. Price and Maroun must go to trial with a circumstantial case and a suspect with unlimited resources. The squad celebrates a birthday.

 

[storyskip]

Okay. Without a doubt there was a lot of suspension of disbelief. But that said? I LOVED this episode.

It told a story I felt engaged in. There were some interesting twists that I was genuinely surprised by. I was actually left wondering a couple of times about the outcome (regarding Frank). We learned where Bernard went. The humor was on point, and the team felt like A TEAM. All of them, together.

A+ episode for the reboot.

[Xeliou66]

This was one of the revival’s best episodes - a few flaws on the legal side as usual, but overall very solid.

The detective stuff was great, as I’ve said before Cosgrove/Shaw are a really stellar pairing and they shined in this one - they did a good investigation and there were good twists that kept me guessing, and the scene in the warehouse was intense.

The case was very intriguing and I liked the twists it took, it kept me guessing as to who did what. The perp was smug scum. I liked how the investigation flowed and how they figured out who did it and gathered evidence. 

The flaws were that nothing was mentioned about charging the defendant for the attempted murder of the witness and Cosgrove, they had him dead to rights for that and that would’ve sent him away for a long time - although I think he knew he was going away that’s why he offered to plead for a 20 year deal. But they would’ve included attempted murder charges in the case as well. Also no mention was made of the brother testifying, Madison told him she saw the murder as well and was scared, and his testimony along with Cosgrove’s would’ve been enough to nail him even without Madison, but no mention was made of him testifying. And it was predictable the judge would throw out the motive evidence. Oh and they never said how the defendant evaded the ankle monitor. I did like how they circled back to the DA’s rushing to charge the perp with Madison’s murder and Cosgrove acknowledging they screwed up by urging the DA’s to do it, that was the one thing that could’ve screwed up their case, I was glad they acknowledged it. It seemed like they glossed over the perp shooting Cosgrove and trying to kill the witness, but I was glad they didn’t plead him, he deserved to go away for life. Overall the flaws weren’t as bad as in other revival episodes, and the good outweighed the bad.

I liked the ending a lot of Cosgrove and Shaw talking about their jobs after the guilty verdict and Cosgrove saying he was right where he needed to be. I liked that they mentioned Bernard, at least I assume that’s who Cosgrove was talking about running the private agency in Florida. I was worried that they were setting up Cosgrove for a possible exit and I liked how the story played out. I also liked the brief mention of Cosgrove’s birthday (it’s the actor’s birthday in real life) and it gave a nice lighter moment in a more serious episode. Also I liked how Dixon was used more - it was great to see her talk to the victim’s family and have a larger role.

McCoy didn’t have a lot but I liked how he gave them the info about the state AG charging the perp with fraud. Next week will be McCoy heavy which should be good.

Overall this was strong - good case with good twists and intensity, good role for each character although it probably helped that it was detective heavy as I like them more than the lawyers, and the flaws weren’t as bad as in other episodes. Cosgrove/Shaw we’re great and the case was good. One of the revival’s better episodes.

 

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, storyskip said:

We learned where Bernard went. The humor was on point, and the team felt like A TEAM. All of them, together.

Frank said it was his first partner.  I don't think Bernard was his first partner.  Maybe that's what they meant but Frank wasn't a new detective, I don't think.

Some of the legal stuff and "being a cop is the best job in the world" stuff didn't land for me.  I'd have a hard time believing they could get in the witness testimony with hearsay rules but have to exclude the fact that the defendant shot Frank until the defense opened the door.  

But I was worried JD would be leaving and because they're such a good duo, I want Cosgrove and Shaw to be around a while.  However, since they're already filming the new season, I suspected he'd stay because I would think we would have heard of any departures already if it weren't the case. 

[Demian]

Cute fact:  Jeffrey Donovan's birthday is May 11th, so that cake scene was timed for his actual birthday.  Of course, they made his character five years younger than the actor actually is....

[theartandsound]

56 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

Frank said it was his first partner.  I don't think Bernard was his first partner.  Maybe that's what they meant but Frank wasn't a new detective, I don't think.

When he mentioned a first partner who now runs a private security company in Florida, I immediately thought of Bruce Campbell since he and Jeffrey Donovan worked together on the Florida-set BURN NOTICE. I wonder if that was an in-joke to Jeff's old show.

[storyskip]

7 hours ago, theartandsound said:

When he mentioned a first partner who now runs a private security company in Florida, I immediately thought of Bruce Campbell since he and Jeffrey Donovan worked together on the Florida-set BURN NOTICE. I wonder if that was an in-joke to Jeff's old show.

You're probably right.  Something I noticed, but forgot to mention in my first comment, were the little nods to Burn Notice. I found it fun and enjoyed the wink wink.  I think, for my own self, I'm going to let "first partner" serve two purposes. As another nod to BN and Bruce Campbell, but also as a resolution of where Bernard ended up. 😆

[Raja]

10 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The flaws were that nothing was mentioned about charging the defendant for the attempted murder of the witness and Cosgrove, they had him dead to rights for that and that would’ve sent him away for a long time - although I think he knew he was going away that’s why he offered to plead for a 20 year deal. But they would’ve included attempted murder charges in the case as well.

That was weird as they played the story out as if the attempted murder of Cosgrove was not part of this trial. Maybe the DA of the upstate warehouse had that case even if the crime was initiated in DA McCoy's jurisdiction.

 

Question for NYC folks. Do the ADA's work for the City of New York, or do the different DA's hire their staff's for the different counties. I am pretty sure it was Mr. Stone who once got past a plea with federal implications because he represented the "County" of New York

[Jenniferbug]

I thought this was a really good episode, and I was almost convinced many times that Frank would end up leaving. I'm glad he didn't- the law side is really clicking, including Yee and Dixon. I hope we get a few more seasons of them. 

I also thought it was odd that no one seemed to be mentioning that he was attempting to murder Madison and Cosgrove and had evaded his ankle monitor to do so. I guess we assume it came up in the offscreen law portions since they didn't have as much focus this episode. 

I liked that Nolan and Frank, who seemed to get off to a rough start last season, have become more friendly and cooperative. It's nice to see that respect between them even when they butt heads sometimes. 

39 minutes ago, Raja said:

Question for NYC folks. Do the ADA's work for the City of New York, or do the different DA's hire their staff's for the different counties. I am pretty sure it was Mr. Stone who once got past a plea with federal implications because he represented the "County" of New York

I don't know the exact answer, but there is an episode when Stone gets someone to testify by granting them immunity in his county, only for them to be promptly arrested after testifying on charges from the county where their criminal activity took place. Stone said he only granted immunity for his jurisdiction and advised the guy to get a better lawyer 😆

[Raja]

9 minutes ago, Jenniferbug said:

 

I liked that Nolan and Frank, who seemed to get off to a rough start last season, have become more friendly and cooperative. It's nice to see that respect between them even when they butt heads sometimes. 

I don't know the exact answer, but there is an episode when Stone gets someone to testify by granting them immunity in his county, only for them to be promptly arrested after testifying on charges from the county where their criminal activity took place. Stone said he only granted immunity for his jurisdiction and advised the guy to get a better lawyer 😆

I don't think they gave Nolan the backstory that Jack as the son of a cop had for that interaction.

I should have stayed with my first instinct from Mr.  Stone. Too many years of Law & Order had me thinking that every New York Supreme Court judge would make the other DA honor the deal Ben made.

[blackwing]

Great episode.  It broke the usual formula in that the cop stuff went beyond the halfway mark.  Frank and Jalen have really gelled together as a team.

15 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The flaws were that nothing was mentioned about charging the defendant for the attempted murder of the witness and Cosgrove, they had him dead to rights for that and that would’ve sent him away for a long time - although I think he knew he was going away that’s why he offered to plead for a 20 year deal. But they would’ve included attempted murder charges in the case as well. Also no mention was made of the brother testifying, Madison told him she saw the murder as well and was scared, and his testimony along with Cosgrove’s would’ve been enough to nail him even without Madison, but no mention was made of him testifying. And it was predictable the judge would throw out the motive evidence. Oh and they never said how the defendant evaded the ankle monitor. I did like how they circled back to the DA’s rushing to charge the perp with Madison’s murder and Cosgrove acknowledging they screwed up by urging the DA’s to do it, that was the one thing that could’ve screwed up their case, I was glad they acknowledged it. It seemed like they glossed over the perp shooting Cosgrove and trying to kill the witness, but I was glad they didn’t plead him, he deserved to go away for life. Overall the flaws weren’t as bad as in other revival episodes, and the good outweighed the bad.

All of this.  Lots of holes in the plot.  I didn't understand why the guy wasn't getting charged with kidnapping and attempted murder of Madison, or attempted murder of Cosgrove.

Also, he was found guilty of murder in the second degree of Sarah.  Isn't "second degree" mean intent to kill but not premeditated?  How is that?  He brought a gun to the gallery and clearly intended to kill her.  How is that not premeditated?

And how about charging him with attempted bribery?  His actual words might have seemed simply being altruistic but the attorney's comments made it clear what he was doing.

15 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

Frank said it was his first partner.  I don't think Bernard was his first partner.  Maybe that's what they meant but Frank wasn't a new detective, I don't think.

Agreed, if he's 50 years old, no way Bernard was his first partner.  Maybe he meant "first partner at the NYPD" but if so, he could have said that.  Lazy writing.  Why not just mention Bernard by actual name?  Just say "my first partner here Kevin".

[Raja]

24 minutes ago, blackwing said:

 

All of this.  Lots of holes in the plot.  I didn't understand why the guy wasn't getting charged with kidnapping and attempted murder of Madison, or attempted murder of Cosgrove.

Also, he was found guilty of murder in the second degree of Sarah.  Isn't "second degree" mean intent to kill but not premeditated?  How is that?  He brought a gun to the gallery and clearly intended to kill her.  How is that not premeditated?

And how about charging him with attempted bribery?  His actual words might have seemed simply being altruistic but the attorney's comments made it clear what he was doing.

From 30 years of L&O I saw that in New York 2nd degree murder would be called 1st degree in most other states. 1st degree means the death penalty. The new team made that mistake all of last season. 

Edit to add:

It would be like New York calling their trial court the Supreme Court instead of the highest appeals court in most of the nation 

It is why I asking about Nolan working for the city or the county of New York 

Edited May 12, 2023 by Raja

[shapeshifter]

In addition to the possible plot holes mentioned upthread:

• Crypto Killer's lawyer will probably appeal, right? If so, isn't Madison's life still in danger from highered goons? 
• What happened to the pension funds that Crypto Killer offered to replace as a bribe?

 

And a funny slip of the tongue: 
Detective Violet Yee says "SVU" instead of "SUV" at about the 7 and a half minute mark for this line, even though the closed captions have it correctly as SUV: 
"Security video from down the street shows that he left the neighborhood at 9:51, but look at this. Do you see that [SUV] SVU?"
It amused me because I always have to pause before saying S-U-V and make sure the letters I am saying are not the Special Victims Unit acronym.

[blackwing]

Just now, shapeshifter said:

In addition to the possible plot holes mentioned upthread:

• Crypto Killer's lawyer will probably appeal, right? If so, isn't Madison's life still in danger from highered goons? 
• What happened to the pension funds that Crypto Killer offered to replace as a bribe?

Right, I would think they need to put a protective detail on Madison.  

There is a concurrent fraud trial running and I am assuming/hoping that he is going to be found guilty and forced to pay restitution, so all of the pension funds for the working class people (including the attorneys) are going to get their money.  I hope.

[Xeliou66]

1 minute ago, shapeshifter said:

In addition to the possible plot holes mentioned upthread:

• Crypto Killer's lawyer will probably appeal, right? If so, isn't Madison's life still in danger from highered goons? 
• What happened to the pension funds that Crypto Killer offered to replace as a bribe?

 

And a funny slip of the tongue: 
Detective Violet Yee says "SVU" instead of "SUV" at about the 7 and a half minute mark for this line, even though the closed captions have it correctly as SUV: 
"Security video from down the street shows that he left the neighborhood at 9:51, but look at this. Do you see that [SUV] SVU?"
It amused me because I always have to pause before saying S-U-V and make sure the letters I am saying are not the Special Victims Unit acronym.

The perp’s lawyers would probably appeal - although they might work out an agreement with the DA’s to give up information in exchange for going to a more preferable prison or something. Madison’s life might be in danger but it would be much harder for the perp to get anyone to kill for him from behind bars, I’m sure he would be closely monitored.

I thought this episode was good overall, but it was puzzling to me that they didn’t mention much about the attempted murder of Madison and Cosgrove at the trial, or that they didn’t talk about the brother testifying. But overall this was good and had fewer flaws than a lot of the revival’s episodes, and it helped that it was detective heavy - Frank/Jalen are a strong pairing and it was nice to see Dixon get more to do. 

[Chyromaniac]

Yeah- the big flaw in the episode is that they handwave the many crimes Nelson committed at that warehouse.  Tbh, I didn’t even catch that it was “upstate” until I got here- so what, Shaw and Cosgrove drive up from the city, and they’re still first on the scene?  Nice going, local PD…

Still, even if it’s a different jurisdiction, for all that to not come up again just feels weird.  “Oh no- without a witness, Nelson could go free (until Tuesday when he’ll be remanded in Albany)…”  It’s like the producers think you can only be put on trial for the one worst crime you could have committed in the course of the show.  But then again, this script is arguably the least interested (of at least the restart seasons) in telling any kind of legal drama at all.

Conversely, this episode very much feels like an ode to the embattled police officer.  Frank is again the de facto lead character- although unlike last week it’s because he’s “dedicated cop” instead of “conflicted dad.”  Indeed, if Frank has a flaw in this story, it’s that he cares too much- that he wants justice for Madison soooo badly, that he pushed Price too far about charging Nelson for both murders, without actual evidence.  And as a consequence he is allowed the grace to admit his own mistake, after heroically taking a bullet in a standoff scene where he looks like a total bad@$$.  What a burden.  And, he may have taken abuse from the public early on (and sure, show- “slightly inconvenienced white male home owner” is clearly the best representative for the defund movement…)- but Frank still has “the best job in the world.”

Now, if the writers wanted an interesting legal argument, they could have made the second half of the show about how to actually handle the prosecution of the warehouse crimes, in conjunction with Sarah’s murder.  And instead of being a flaky weirdo, maybe Madison refuses to testify because she (and/or her brother?) was in on the crypto scam.  Therefore, Price needs Frank’s testimony from the shooting to convict Nelson of Sarah’s murder.  But, how can he get that testimony, it’s from a different trial that hasn’t happened yet?

Otherwise, I think they actually did a good job with the one big court ruling- because of course you can’t use the crypto case as motive for the murder, unless you can prove Nelson knew Sarah was going to rat him out.  I also liked the plea negotiation- especially Price saying that he didn’t care about the fraud case, because he “works for the city.”  It was a great line, and the most he’s felt like an ADA in a long time.  And the episode in general was dramatic and interesting- I just wished it was more of an episode of law & order, instead of “Frank Cosgrove, Hero Cop.”

[howiveaddict]

19 hours ago, theartandsound said:

When he mentioned a first partner who now runs a private security company in Florida, I immediately thought of Bruce Campbell since he and Jeffrey Donovan worked together on the Florida-set BURN NOTICE. I wonder if that was an in-joke to Jeff's old show.

My mind went there also.  We need some episodes with his old cast mates as guest stars.

I just wish the writers weren't so sloppy that the trial is going on while Frank was  still in the hospital. In real life, it would not start for months and probably years. Especially as the defendant was so wealthy.   

[Raja]

1 hour ago, howiveaddict said:

 

I just wish the writers weren't so sloppy that the trial is going on while Frank was  still in the hospital. In real life, it would not start for months and probably years. Especially as the defendant was so wealthy.   

I wouldn't put that one on the writers but on Dick Wolf as the show has been designed with the ultra speedy trial since the beginning.  It was really noticeable in Lenny's retirement episode as he went out with a double win. Earlier in the season where Detective Shaw felt sorry for the innocent man in jail for months waiting for trial when he killed in an escape attempt seemed out of place, that he was the first guy on the show to stay in jail for an extended period awaiting trial.

[Raja]

22 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

Frank said it was his first partner.  I don't think Bernard was his first partner.  Maybe that's what they meant but Frank wasn't a new detective, I don't think.

If memory serves Lt Dixon knew Frank when she brought him in to partner with Detective Bernard for his last year.

[illdoc]

17 hours ago, howiveaddict said:

trial is going on while Frank was  still in the hospital. In real life, it would not start for months

Um, the trial was already starting. In fact, I believe Price had already given an opening statement, where he referred to the "two" murders. 

[Xeliou66]

27 minutes ago, illdoc said:

Um, the trial was already starting. In fact, I believe Price had already given an opening statement, where he referred to the "two" murders. 

No, the trial hadn’t started yet, Price’s opening didn’t reference two murders. I agree the timeline was screwy, it always is with the trials in the L&O shows but it would’ve been more realistic if Cosgrove was at home recovering from the shooting rather than still in the hospital. And I wondered why Cosgrove’s family wasn’t shown, they would’ve been at the hospital with him, maybe they just weren’t in the room when the others went to see him. 

[Chyromaniac]

9 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

No, the trial hadn’t started yet, Price’s opening didn’t reference two murders. I agree the timeline was screwy, it always is with the trials in the L&O shows but it would’ve been more realistic if Cosgrove was at home recovering from the shooting rather than still in the hospital. And I wondered why Cosgrove’s family wasn’t shown, they would’ve been at the hospital with him, maybe they just weren’t in the room when the others went to see him. 

Yes - it was the defense opening statement that talked about how Nelson was originally charged with two murders, as a way to suggest that the prosecution didn’t know what they were doing.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Aw geez, NFTs. I thought that fad had finally died out.

What planet was the cryptocurrency hedge fund manager from that he thought he could refuse to be arrested? I guess at some point massive wealth insulates you from basic reality. (ETA: I read elsewhere that it's a "sovereign citizen" thing not to feel subject to any part of the US legal system. Hmm.)

Unless someone is deliberately trying to disappear, I can't see them leaving their driver's license behind. That bit of evidence used a proof Madison was dead was clearly sus IMO.

Wouldn't Billionaire Boy's attorney have been given a witness list in the investment fraud case? That's probably how he knew Sarah was testifying against him. Seems to me a simple phone call would've provided the proof.

Mansions, yachts, porn. Google search history's got dirt on everybody, lol.

Why wasn't Cosgrove wearing a Kevlar vest when he went in the warehouse? Especially since he was going in without backup besides Shaw.

I wondered if Cosgrove was still hopped up on the heavy duty painkillers when he was testifying. He seemed a bit too happy and laid back.

Edited May 13, 2023 by Joimiaroxeu
i was dreaming when i wrote this

[CrystalBlue]

On 5/12/2023 at 12:13 PM, shapeshifter said:

In addition to the possible plot holes mentioned upthread:

• Crypto Killer's lawyer will probably appeal, right? If so, isn't Madison's life still in danger from highered goons? 
• What happened to the pension funds that Crypto Killer offered to replace as a bribe?

 

And a funny slip of the tongue: 
Detective Violet Yee says "SVU" instead of "SUV" at about the 7 and a half minute mark for this line, even though the closed captions have it correctly as SUV: 
"Security video from down the street shows that he left the neighborhood at 9:51, but look at this. Do you see that [SUV] SVU?"
It amused me because I always have to pause before saying S-U-V and make sure the letters I am saying are not the Special Victims Unit acronym.

I missed that!  But when Frank referred to his first partner, I didn't think he was talking about Bernard.  Wouldn't Shaw know about Bernard being Cosgrove's previous partner anyway?  So we still don't know what happened to Bernard!

[CrystalBlue]

At first I thought Frank was wearing a Kevlar vest so I "knew" he'd be OK, until it was apparent he was shot with the bullet.  I'm glad he's not going to Florida!

[wknt3]

On 5/12/2023 at 8:36 AM, Raja said:

That was weird as they played the story out as if the attempted murder of Cosgrove was not part of this trial. Maybe the DA of the upstate warehouse had that case even if the crime was initiated in DA McCoy's jurisdiction.

 

Question for NYC folks. Do the ADA's work for the City of New York, or do the different DA's hire their staff's for the different counties. I am pretty sure it was Mr. Stone who once got past a plea with federal implications because he represented the "County" of New York

Not NYC, but NYS and familiar with the system. Each NYC borough is a state county, some with different names just to make it extra confusing. Most of the usual functions of county administration are handled by the city although there are Borough Presidents and other officials. One of the few major distinctions is that each of the boroughs/counties has its own elected DA. So Jack McCoy is the New York County District Attorney and all of the ADA's work for his office. The offices do not share staff. Heck they don't even like to share information or cases they are supposed to in my limited experience dealing with the system.

[Samsnee]

This was a great episode. Maybe because it was more Law focused but it had great detective work. The defendant was perfectly slimy. And Cosgrove has really grown on me. 
 

I’m surprised the defendant didn’t plead out. I mean, he tried killing a cop. I don’t see how you get away from that. 

[dubbel zout]

It was interesting to watch this episode after the season finale. Here we had a sympathetic witness who had been very close to violence, but Nolan wasn't emotionally affected by her testimony the way he was for the defendant's in ep 22. 

I wonder if the defendant turned over that financial information anyway. It might not change his sentence, but it could make a difference in where he serves.

On 5/13/2023 at 5:55 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

Why wasn't Cosgrove wearing a Kevlar vest when he went in the warehouse? Especially since he was going in without backup besides Shaw.

Neither of them were wearing vests, which I thought was odd (and dumb). 

The law side got short shrift this entire season, but the casting of the defendants was always pretty good. I thought the actor got a bit hammy at times, but it made the point what scum his character was.

The birthday party was nice, and I laughed when Shaw finally just grabbed a piece of cake. Hee. You don't tease people like that!

[1775rik]

Price's passionate declaration that he worked for the people of New York City would have been more effective if it were actually true.  I know those little things shouldn't get to me, but they do.