S04.E05: Kill List

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, aghst said:

They said it wouldn't be the CEO just winging it as depicted on the show.  They'd be flanked by lawyers and bankers and they'd constantly consult the data crunched by the bankers.

I think 99% of this show is wildly unrealistic.  Especially the business dealings.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, laurakaye said:

Roman tells Connor no, do NOT send me any pictures of our father's body.  Connor then does exactly that.  I don't know if that was Connor being scatterbrained or purposefully spiteful, since he literally just got married and is now alone in charge of the funeral arrangements.  The relationship between Connor and Roman seems to have been close when they were younger so I found it odd that Connor would do that to Roman, specifically.

It's always hard to tell when Roman is serious, so maybe Connor just did it because he thought that was a standard thing Roman should be expected to okay or see. It was the one thing Connor was in charge of, he took it seriously and thought it should be met with approval or something.

Btw, love Willa telling Connor not to let them make fun of him--she's absolutely gonig to be like a real wife to him, whatever way they started.

 

14 minutes ago, ahpny said:

Didn't the Swedes send a list of people they wanted to (or demanded) attend, and presumably Greg's name was on that, for whatever reason?

Seemed like he specifically wasn't, since Matsson asked who he was and Kendall said he could be there because he was their cousin.

[Chicago Redshirt]

26 minutes ago, ahpny said:

Didn't the Swedes send a list of people they wanted to (or demanded) attend, and presumably Greg's name was on that, for whatever reason?

Well, they would know it came from someone on the plane, though not necessarily Shiv. But I don't think that scene was about potential social media posting. Shiv's intent seemed to be to revenge against her  brothers for freezing her out, while simultaneously worming her way into Madssen's world to enhance her soft landing in the acquired company once (and if) the deal closes. But her pix sharing is more than just brother betrayal; it's essentially corporate espionage because it informs Madssen what her brothers' mental state is. That tells Madssen how the brothers truly feel about the merger and what was posturing ("Scubby-doing") on their part and what was not. That's quite valuable information, and Shiv's conveyance of it with little to no thought is rather telling in and of itself. She's clearly chosen team Madssen, seemingly at least in part because of, not despite, his clearly sociopathic tendencies. She's lost a sociopathic father, but gained a sociopathic business partner.

The Swedes sent a list, but Greg was not on it, given that Matsson had no idea who he was and that Kendall had to basically say "He's with me and he's cool."  Greg basically self-invited.

What Matsson was saying is "Scooby-Dooing." He was referring to how in the classic cartoon, the villains were almost invariably failing business people trying to scare off the rubes with phony g-g-ghosts in order to achieve some goal like buying up a property cheap. Matsson caught on to the ploy of them showing the expensive sci-fi movie as a potential bomb to try to make the Waystar seem less desirable.

[nb360]

7 hours ago, laurakaye said:

She seems to want to be able to torment him and expect him to never retaliate. 

Hmmm... Like the way Logan tormented his kids and never thought they would be smart enough to effectively retaliate?

[Chicago Redshirt]

25 minutes ago, nb360 said:

Hmmm... Like the way Logan tormented his kids and never thought they would be smart enough to effectively retaliate?

When you put it that way, it is interesting that basically the first time they managed to score what I think we have to concede was a victory over him (outbidding him for Pierce) was just probably days before he died. I dunno if that is supposed to be coincidence, or if he essentially gave up the ghost after losing to his not-serious offspring.

[millennium]

11 hours ago, Francie said:

One was 1923. The first 3 episodes were great, and then it stalled for the next 7 and abruptly ended without any resolution of the problems presented in the first episode. It was all, "stay tuned until next year!

I'm only on episode 8.  😦

[Francie]

13 minutes ago, millennium said:

I'm only on episode 8.  😦

I mean lots and tons of exciting things happen. You'll be on the edge of the seat of your pants!! [small voice] did I fix it? [/small voice]

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

I mean lots and tons of exciting things happen. You'll be on the edge of the seat of your pants!! [small voice] did I fix it? [/small voice]

If you tell me Alex gets tag-teamed by the grizzly bears on the White House lawn, all will be forgiven. 🙃

[MizLottie]

On 4/24/2023 at 2:05 AM, kathe5133 said:

I am not at the level of business where I'm privy to the details of mergers and acquisitions, but I seriously doubt anyone behaves as everyone does on this show.  I'll ignore it because it's entertainment, but truly this is just not how it's done.

You'd be surprised!  I've seen it happen on a lower economic level, mere millionaires.  I think they just enjoy fucking with people to feel good about themselves.

[7-Zark-7]

Matsson called in with his high bid to... Frank... who's on his kill list. That's cold.

[cmfran]

20 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

This was my favorite line of the night. The writers are terrific.

I foresee Emmy nominations all around, with one possible exception. I agree with the posters who think Nicholas Braun/Greg seems off this season. I don't think his presence would be missed if he weren't there. 

OK, I have a question. I have always been a bit squigged out to see a whole animal roasting on a pit, and so I tried to avoid watching the spinning meat. Were those goats? Lambs? Deer?

In a Nordic country, it could have been reindeer. 

[dmc]

20 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I don't doubt that there are entitled men who do dumb things, because we have ample evidence of that. 

I do doubt that there are too many entitled men as smart as Mattson seem to be who unnecessarily bring up the dumb, creepy things they do to people that they do not need to bring them up to, who aren't in a particularly good position to help them and who are potentially in a position to hurt them. 

It's not as though Shiv is some sort of specialist in smoothing over sexual harassment, or was in a position to give him any profound advice as to how to deal with the ex. And taking his confession as true, telling Shiv about it is a risk that she would be weirded out by him both professionally and personally.

Given his wealth, Mattson presumably has access to attorneys, non-Ebbe flaks, therapists, friends, etc. who could give him advice on what to do about Ebbe if that were a genuine situation. Why turn to Shiv, who he literally just met, and who has interests that might be adverse to his?

There are plenty of men as smart as Mattson that would do this and then admit to it. He already got ATN at the higher price by offering more money until he got a yes.  He didn’t need Shiv.  Her advice was obvious, just keep offering more money which he rightly makes fun of…because it’s non advice. Yet he still takes it because he wants ATN. 

 

This is completely believable.  Mattson is supposed to reminiscent of Elon Musk according to the show creator who regularly does dumb shit. Smart people even really smart people can also be over-sharers. Peruse his twitter.  We will see what happens but I am willing to be this isn’t some big twist. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by dmc

[Milburn Stone]

22 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

I agree with the posters who think Nicholas Braun/Greg seems off this season.

Could it be (partly) his new haircut? It sounds like a silly thing, but with his old hair, I could see him as a lovable (yet smarter than he let on) goof. Now his hair says naked ambition and it's harder to like him.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Could it be (partly) his new haircut? It sounds like a silly thing, but with his old hair, I could see him as a lovable (yet smarter than he let on) goof. Now his hair says naked ambition and it's harder to like him.

This isn't the kind of haircut one gets when one just wants someone to touch one's head!

[realityplease]

6 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

This isn't the kind of haircut one gets when one just wants someone to touch one's head!

Anyone short couldn't even reach his head to touch it!  (Maybe if he was sitting down. . .)

Edited April 26, 2023 by realityplease

[chaifan]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

Smart people even really smart people can also be over-sharers.

Especially when said smart person is drinking and doing coke...  😁

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 hours ago, dmc said:

There are plenty of men as smart as Mattson that would do this and then admit to it. He already got ATN at the higher price by offering more money until he got a yes.  He didn’t need Shiv.  Her advice was obvious, just keep offering more money which he rightly makes fun of…because it’s non advice. Yet he still takes it because he wants ATN. 

 

This is completely believable.  Mattson is supposed to reminiscent of Elon Musk according to the show creator who regularly does dumb shit. Smart people even really smart people can also be over-sharers. Peruse his twitter.  We will see what happens but I am willing to be this isn’t some big twist. 

The show has yet AFAIK to give any indication that Matsson is the sort of socially awkward, clueless and/or neurodivergent person who would both 1. repeatedly send frozen bricks of his own blood to someone he was dating and 2. needlessly share that information with someone he is in an adversarial relationship with, or at least, is not in a particularly close relationship with.

For all the antics of real-life tech bros, I don't think that any have come to light that would parallel the utter cluelessness it would take for Matsson to genuinely have done this and to without prompting or need bring this up to Shiv sincerely seeking her advice (as opposed to the people he pays for advice and can trust for their confidentiality and loyalty).

BTW, Shiv's advice is not necessarily obvious. There could be certain forms of non-monetary compensation that might have been necessary, or the powers that be might not have wanted to sell at any price. I don't see Matsson as making fun of it. I see it more that he's amazed that it is just that simple. 

[DobbsFox]

On 4/25/2023 at 12:22 PM, ahpny said:

But her pix sharing is more than just brother betrayal; it's essentially corporate espionage because it informs Madssen what her brothers' mental state is. That tells Madssen how the brothers truly feel about the merger and what was posturing ("Scubby-doing") on their part and what was not. That's quite valuable information, and Shiv's conveyance of it with little to no thought is rather telling in and of itself. She's clearly chosen team Madssen, seemingly at least in part because of, not despite, his clearly sociopathic tendencies. She's lost a sociopathic father, but gained a sociopathic business partner.

The definition of a confidence game is when, before they get fleeced, it's the mark who thinks they have the upper hand. It feels like all three of the kids are sitting right in that position, money-wise (Kendall and Roman) and revenge-wise (Shiv).

[dmc]

4 hours ago, chaifan said:

Especially when said smart person is drinking and doing coke...  😁

Yes exactly. 

 

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The show has yet AFAIK to give any indication that Matsson is the sort of socially awkward, clueless and/or neurodivergent person who would both 1. repeatedly send frozen bricks of his own blood to someone he was dating and 2. needlessly share that information with someone he is in an adversarial relationship with, or at least, is not in a particularly close relationship with.

For all the antics of real-life tech bros, I don't think that any have come to light that would parallel the utter cluelessness it would take for Matsson to genuinely have done this and to without prompting or need bring this up to Shiv sincerely seeking her advice (as opposed to the people he pays for advice and can trust for their confidentiality and loyalty).

BTW, Shiv's advice is not necessarily obvious. There could be certain forms of non-monetary compensation that might have been necessary, or the powers that be might not have wanted to sell at any price. I don't see Matsson as making fun of it. I see it more that he's amazed that it is just that simple. 

I think keep offering more money is the definition of obvious. I thought their exchange laughing about how obvious it is was sort of funny. This show is study in rich people culture so social implications are very much relevant here. 

Edited April 26, 2023 by dmc

[nb360]

8 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Could it be (partly) his new haircut? It sounds like a silly thing, but with his old hair, I could see him as a lovable (yet smarter than he let on) goof. Now his hair says naked ambition and it's harder to like him.

This discussion about hair is interesting because Gerri's hair looks noticeably better, too.

Greg's hair does look like he finally went to a professional barber instead of his local mall.

[rhygirl720]

My take from the beginning is Mattson was playing all of them from go.

Getting them to travel 2 days after Logan died? Who does this?  He knew he had them. Why not say no this doesn't work, we need to bury our father, how about this instead. It's called negotiation. Try to imagine Logan in this, he would have told him to f-off.

Shiv looks like the cat who ate the canary, my guess she chokes on it. Men like him aren't interested in an equal and I doubt he sees Shiv that way. I'm sure he is aware that Tom and Shiv aren't together, and he played her like a fiddle. I also highly doubt the whole blood story.

What Roman said to Mattson was 100% on point. Timing wasn't the best, but he wasn't wrong. He has good instincts, but he is so emotionally damaged he doesn't trust them.

Kendall is a completely over his head. I think his emotional intelligence is zero. Can't read the room. Constantly tongue tied.

Mattson is a shark, it's in the eyes.

[smartymarty]

On 4/24/2023 at 3:09 PM, 90sfan said:

If you would have told me in season 1 that I would sympathize with Roman, I would have told you you're crazy. Yet here I am. He is the least selfish of the siblings and may be a people pleaser in that he wanted the love of his father and he wants the love of his siblings. He was the one who took the partnership the siblings formed the most seriously. He went along with the Pierce deal because it was what Kendall and Shiv wanted. He gets easily convinced because to him what's most important is keeping them happy.

He was the one this episode that kept asking Kendall if they should bring Shiv in the conversation and get her opinion. He went along with Kendall with the plan to mess up the deal, but initially asked if they should check with Shiv. 

Roman has many faults, but if I had to choose the least objectionable sibling it would be him.

Roman is desperate for family. He stayed with his father despite his father's abuse of him. Then his siblings invite him to be partner, and he pushes that. When Kendall wants to kill the whole deal, which wasn't the plan, Roman folds for the sake of being aligned with his brother (and wants his sister to be aligned, too). And he was pissed at Mattson because Mattson didn't wait for the Roys to look like a family at their father's funeral.

On 4/25/2023 at 9:05 AM, dmc said:

Madssen says he wants to add in ATN

Roman responds with Why?

and Ken is like we need to take a beat like he has no contingency plan for Madssen to say anything other than what he wants.

I feel so far it’s clear that Ken and Roman are kind of incompetent.  I thought it was just me but the show creator agreed in the HBO podcast 

 

On 4/25/2023 at 1:00 PM, aghst said:

They said it wouldn't be the CEO just winging it as depicted on the show.  They'd be flanked by lawyers and bankers and they'd constantly consult the data crunched by the bankers.

At minimum, Kendall and Roman should have replied "okay, that's another $40 billion then." I mean, don't they have any idea what ATN is worth. What kind of prepping did they do? They really are just mimicking their father without his actual business acumen.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I periodically come back to this thread and recall "2 metres of nepotism" as a description of Greg and get a little chuckle.

They really should have subtitled that shiznit.

[chaifan]

I think I've realized why I like Shiv and think she's smarter than her two brothers...  she's the only one who knows that not speaking is usually more important than speaking.  Tom and Greg are at the opposite end of the spectrum, always tripping over their own tongue, yapping just to be in the conversation, but coming off as complete idiots in the end.  But Kendall and Roman are sometimes almost as bad, and talk just to talk, to fill in the dead air.  (Though Roman will usually realize he's just talking in circles and then shut himself down with a string of expletives about something/someone.)  Shiv has had her occasional ramble, but her scene with Mattson is more typical of her - listening, letting other people talk, and speaking deliberately.  And in that way, she is like Logan. 

Of course, when it comes to speaking volumes in very few words, Marcia's the Queen.  I do hope there's more of her before the series is over.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I periodically come back to this thread and recall "2 metres of nepotism" as a description of Greg and get a little chuckle.

They really should have subtitled that shiznit.

It's like a prize for those who take the time to find the translation.

[Pestilentia]

Quote

she's the only one who knows that not speaking is usually more important than speaking  

 

Yes, but when she does speak all that falls is out is "Yeah, no- whatever."    
That's the only resemblance I see to Logan in any of them- the ability to use any one of 200 words in a non-committal phrase to get out of saying anything. 

Not that any of them are articulate or have any sort of fluency in English whatsoever- if you eliminate catchy buzz words from their vocabulary. I'd have thought they would have received better educations.

[DrSpaceman73]

Do we know how much of the board the family controls?  And how much stock they control?  What happened to those things when their dad died?  Who Inherits it, if anyone?  At least the stock has to go somewhere. 

Kendall always talks a big game and can't back it up. 

My question is why does Mattson want ATN?  Is he just going to sell it again?  Surely doesn't want to continue it as a news station. Obviously is not the right person or culture for that. 

Quad 4....Greg is so hopelessly pathetic and funny. 

On 4/28/2023 at 11:08 AM, Pestilentia said:

 

Yes, but when she does speak all that falls is out is "Yeah, no- whatever."    
That's the only resemblance I see to Logan in any of them- the ability to use any one of 200 words in a non-committal phrase to get out of saying anything. 

Not that any of them are articulate or have any sort of fluency in English whatsoever- if you eliminate catchy buzz words from their vocabulary. I'd have thought they would have received better educations.

You take out the buzz words and swear words and....they say nothing. 

[Blakeston]

4 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

My question is why does Mattson want ATN?  Is he just going to sell it again?  Surely doesn't want to continue it as a news station. Obviously is not the right person or culture for that. 

He said he wants to turn it into a Bloomberg-type of news outlet. One that's more neutral, rather than specifically trying to appeal to older right-wingers.

If he was serious about that plan, it's a pretty bad one. Fox News has a pretty devoted fan base that would disappear if it went neutral. And lots of the people who don't watch it would be unwilling to trust it even if it was purchased by a new corporation.