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Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

candall

By candall
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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

53 minutes ago, Mondrianyone said:

Except it isn't. In that context "slow" is an example of a flat adverb (also called a bare adverb), of which there are quite a few. We say "go straight, then turn right," not "go straightly, then turn rightly." Most of us "work hard" rather than "hardly work" (yuk, yuk). See also "swing low, sweet chariot" and "that girl will go far." Some adverbs alternate between "-ly" forms and flat (or bare) forms, some don't. It's just that the flat form is seldom (hey, there's one!) acknowledged. Now I'm going to go off and split a few infinitives, just for fun.  

But "Go slowly" is perfectly cromulent.

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Browncoat
Browncoat

I just had a contractor reschedule an appointment for the second time.  They apologized for any "incontinence" that the rescheduling might cause.  🤣🤣

nokat
nokat

I thought this belonged here. We need the occasional laugh.  

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Ancaster

Ancaster

Regarding "Welcome/Welcome in" and people's hatred of one or both, in France if you don't exchange "Bonjours" when you enter a shop, it is considered rude.  Of course, being France, there is no need to plaster on a fake smile, it's just a way of politely acknowledging a fellow human being.

I also miss people greeting fellow walkers/hikers when they pass them.  That's what I grew up with in Northern England, and again I just see it as politeness.  I know New Yorkers are known for not making eye contact, but I now live in the crunchy, granola eating, Birkenstock wearing Pacific Northwest.

PS: "Welcome in" doesn't bother me.  I'd rather have that when I enter a restaurant and lose the overly friendly, "Welcome, my name is Eejet and I'll be your server today."

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Browncoat

Browncoat

(edited)
13 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

I loathe it when people say "is is", as in "the problem is is that my grammar is poor."

I use it sometimes, but only when I'm mocking some comedian who used it in a stand-up or skit.  I truly have no specific recollection where it came from, but I'll say, "See, what the problem is, is that..."  to be funny.  I do not use it in real life.

I inadvertently lied -- what I actually say to be funny is, "See, what had happened was, was that..." and apparently it originated with Richard Pryor.

Edited by Browncoat
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graybrown bird

graybrown bird

My grammar pet peeve lately is saying "bake off" instead of just "bake."  My local news at noon features a recipe, and "Howard from the Mr. Food test kitchen" always instructs us to add the last ingredient to the cake or casserole mixture, then "bake it off" in a 350-degree oven.

And another peeve (I think mentioned before in this thread):  the past tense of the verb "to lead" is not spelled "lead" but "led."  I see this mistake almost daily, it seems.

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EtheltoTillie

EtheltoTillie

22 hours ago, graybrown bird said:

My grammar pet peeve lately is saying "bake off" instead of just "bake."  My local news at noon features a recipe, and "Howard from the Mr. Food test kitchen" always instructs us to add the last ingredient to the cake or casserole mixture, then "bake it off" in a 350-degree oven.

And another peeve (I think mentioned before in this thread):  the past tense of the verb "to lead" is not spelled "lead" but "led."  I see this mistake almost daily, it seems.

Bake off and similar locutions are taught in culinary schools.  So the professional chefs use them.  

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Milburn Stone

Milburn Stone

I have never heard anyone say "feel of" as a verb, but it sounds almost Shakespearean to me, and I like it. Somehow, I understand the difference between "here, feel this fabric" and "here, feel of this fabric." The latter makes me think "oh my, what I'm about to touch may afford me the most sensuous experience I'll ever have from a towel."

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

44 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I have never heard anyone say "feel of" as a verb, but it sounds almost Shakespearean to me, and I like it. Somehow, I understand the difference between "here, feel this fabric" and "here, feel of this fabric." The latter makes me think "oh my, what I'm about to touch may afford me the most sensuous experience I'll ever have from a towel."

Maybe my towels do need replacing…🤔🧐

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fastiller

fastiller

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

I have never heard anyone say "feel of" as a verb, but it sounds almost Shakespearean to me, and I like it. Somehow, I understand the difference between "here, feel this fabric" and "here, feel of this fabric." The latter makes me think "oh my, what I'm about to touch may afford me the most sensuous experience I'll ever have from a towel."

When I started Secondary School in Ireland (after Primary & Middle in NYC), I was confused by the exam questions that would start "Treat of.....".

"Treat of the impact of the Irish Free State's declared neutrality during World War II." (Or something like this.)

Screenshot_20250608-102612_Chrome.jpg

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

19 minutes ago, fastiller said:

When I started Secondary School in Ireland (after Primary & Middle in NYC), I was confused by the exam questions that would start "Treat of.....".

"Treat of the impact of the Irish Free State's declared neutrality during World War II." (Or something like this.)

Screenshot_20250608-102612_Chrome.jpg

Thank you, @fastiller. 
That mirrors my confusion when talking to many of the otherwise fine people of Rochester NY who have lived here all their lives, perhaps mostly those who did not go to college — even locally — where they would have encountered other English speakers.  

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Yeah No

Yeah No

This is really a pet peeve but I hate it when people say "should of, would of, could of" instead of the correct "should have, would have, could have". I've even seen very literate, educated people do this. I just saw an old HS friend do this on Facebook last week. At first I thought it might have been just a forgetful mistake but she did it again the next paragraph. And this is a person that is not only a graduate of the Bronx HS of Science, but also a lawyer!

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EtheltoTillie

EtheltoTillie

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

This is really a pet peeve but I hate it when people say "should of, would of, could of" instead of the correct "should have, would have, could have". I've even seen very literate, educated people do this. I just saw an old HS friend do this on Facebook last week. At first I thought it might have been just a forgetful mistake but she did it again the next paragraph. And this is a person that is not only a graduate of the Bronx HS of Science, but also a lawyer!

I think you mean that they write it instead of say it.  Many people say it, because they're saying should've, would've could've.  

Writing it is pretty bad, I have to agree.

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StatisticalOutlier

StatisticalOutlier

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Somehow, I understand the difference between "here, feel this fabric" and "here, feel of this fabric." The latter makes me think "oh my, what I'm about to touch may afford me the most sensuous experience I'll ever have from a towel."

I like this!  I don't think it's applicable to every instance of "feel of" but maybe there's a subtext I wasn't aware of.  When it comes to "feel of," I'm a native speaker and we often don't know why we say things the way we do.

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Yeah No

Yeah No

20 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I think you mean that they write it instead of say it.  Many people say it, because they're saying should've, would've could've.  

Writing it is pretty bad, I have to agree.

Yes, this was in writing on a Facebook post. If she'd said it, I could have forgiven it more because it might have been just the way she says "could've".

13 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I think they don't know the difference!  

I agree. And she should know better. Although she's not the first lawyer I've known that's done something similar. I worked with a lawyer that ended almost every sentence with a question mark. And that's no exaggeration. My boss, also a lawyer and consummate grammarian, used to give me this man's reports to edit before compiling them in our weekly meeting document.

Hey, I admit I've split an infinitive and ended a sentence with a preposition more times than I can count, but this stuff is on another level!

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Lugal

Lugal

On 6/6/2025 at 9:19 AM, graybrown bird said:

And another peeve (I think mentioned before in this thread):  the past tense of the verb "to lead" is not spelled "lead" but "led."  I see this mistake almost daily, it seems.

First of all in writing, people should try to get it right, but I try cut people slack with homophones (and because when I'm not careful I can make this particular mistake). /lɛd/ is both the past tense of to lead and the heavy grey metallic element lead. Which are spelled the same.  If anything the element should be spelled "led".

7 hours ago, Yeah No said:

This is really a pet peeve but I hate it when people say "should of, would of, could of" instead of the correct "should have, would have, could have". I've even seen very literate, educated people do this. I just saw an old HS friend do this on Facebook last week. At first I thought it might have been just a forgetful mistake but she did it again the next paragraph. And this is a person that is not only a graduate of the Bronx HS of Science, but also a lawyer!

Unfortunately, the unstressed forms of have and of are both pronounced the same /əv/ or /ə/.  Personally, I find sandhi fascinating.

fluid_speech.png

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Ancaster

Ancaster

(edited)
14 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Argggh!  On other adult-children-related peeves, I feel like I’ve lost the battle on convincing them that no, it’s not pronounced “Mis-CHEE-ve-us”. 

Where I am she's known as "Miss Chee-Vee-Yuss" and I too have given up.  According to my doctor I have a whole range of hills not worth dying on and this is one of them.

Edited by Ancaster
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EtheltoTillie

EtheltoTillie

59 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

Where I am she's known as "Miss Chee-Vee-Yuss" and I too have given up.  According to my doctor I have a whole range of hills not worth dying on and this is one of them.

It occurs to me that the pronunciation mischevious is a little like your British pronunciation and spelling aluminium.  

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Crashcourse

Crashcourse

17 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Argggh!  On other adult-children-related peeves, I feel like I’ve lost the battle on convincing them that no, it’s not pronounced “Mis-CHEE-ve-us”. 

Yes!  I've even heard people on tv--celebrities and even some announcers--pronouncing it that way.   If they took the time to actually spell the word (although some of them probably can't) they would know that's the wrong pronunciation. 

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Ancaster

Ancaster

A food critic on an old TV show I'm watching just said to a cook, "If the technician work was done a little better I think it would have really exploded the dish."

I admit I watch way too much "food TV", but I swear I could fill a book with the inanities and grammatical inaccuracies that come out of the mouths of the judges, critics, and competitors.  I get that the chefs/cooks often don't have much (or didn't excel at) formal education, but the critics write and talk about food for a living.

If their busy little lives don't leave time for actual reading, maybe the critics and judges could at least listen to audio books by respected authors such as MFK Fisher, Ruth Reichl, Elizabeth David, Michael Pollan - people who write well and are engaging.

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

(edited)
1 hour ago, Ancaster said:

A food critic on an old TV show I'm watching just said to a cook, "If the technician work was done a little better I think it would have really exploded the dish."

I admit I watch way too much "food TV", but I swear I could fill a book with the inanities and grammatical inaccuracies that come out of the mouths of the judges, critics, and competitors.  I get that the chefs/cooks often don't have much (or didn't excel at) formal education, but the critics write and talk about food for a living.

If their busy little lives don't leave time for actual reading, maybe the critics and judges could at least listen to audio books by respected authors such as MFK Fisher, Ruth Reichl, Elizabeth David, Michael Pollan - people who write well and are engaging.

I haven't watched cooking shows since my employer paid for trips including hotel rooms for professional development before the 2008 financial crisis. 
But aren't these chef-types trying to invent new buzz words with which they will be immortalized — or at least with which they will be identified and gain some cultural caché?
 

Edited by shapeshifter
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Ancaster

Ancaster

7 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I haven't watched cooking shows since my employer paid for trips including hotel rooms for professional development before the 2008 financial crisis. 
But aren't these chef-types trying to invent new buzz words with which they will be immortalized — or at least with which they will be identified and gain some cultural caché?
 

And I thought I was cynical. 

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Yeah No

Yeah No

14 hours ago, Ancaster said:

A food critic on an old TV show I'm watching just said to a cook, "If the technician work was done a little better I think it would have really exploded the dish."

I admit I watch way too much "food TV", but I swear I could fill a book with the inanities and grammatical inaccuracies that come out of the mouths of the judges, critics, and competitors.  I get that the chefs/cooks often don't have much (or didn't excel at) formal education, but the critics write and talk about food for a living.

If their busy little lives don't leave time for actual reading, maybe the critics and judges could at least listen to audio books by respected authors such as MFK Fisher, Ruth Reichl, Elizabeth David, Michael Pollan - people who write well and are engaging.

I watch a lot of food TV too and I know all those people you listed. A related peeve of mine is the use of the word "unctuous" to describe food in a positive sense. I think what people think they're saying is that it has an creamy or gooey consistency. But the dictionary definition of the word has traditionally not included food. It is used to describe non-food things in a negative sense as having and oily, greasy consistency. I've seen dictionaries recently mention the word's use to describe food but many do not. And many people who have adopted the word to describe food positively defend themselves by saying that "language evolves" and accuse us all being fussbudgets. OK, but I see that excuse a lot lately for all kinds of words. The internet has also contributed to the rapid evolution of our language, often not for the better in my opinion. And where does it end? It seems like dictionaries are always caving into the "popular" incorrect usage of words. And I don't love that. I'm still not over the addition of the word "ain't" to the dictionary and that was a long time ago now!

https://www.reddit.com/r/TopChef/comments/12prr7p/judges_that_word_doesnt_mean_what_you_think_it/

 

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Ancaster

Ancaster

(edited)
43 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

I watch a lot of food TV too and I know all those people you listed. A related peeve of mine is the use of the word "unctuous" to describe food in a positive sense. I think what people think they're saying is that it has an creamy or gooey consistency. But the dictionary definition of the word has traditionally not included food. It is used to describe non-food things in a negative sense as having and oily, greasy consistency.

 

Yes!  I remember posting about this years ago and including a picture of Dickens' Uriah Heep, the epitome of someone unctuous.

image.png.b5e205b7c5698853e186207bbb8f747c.png

Edited by Ancaster
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EtheltoTillie

EtheltoTillie

6 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

"Only in theaters".  Am I the only person who hates this phrase?

And why and when did "It's going good" become a thing?  It's not as if "good" has fewer syllables or is easier to pronounce than "well". 

Eh, I don't mind "only in theaters."  It's stating fact.

"It's going good" (and other misuses of good for well) was around when I was a child.  That is, a long time ago.  

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shapeshifter

shapeshifter

48 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

And why and when did "It's going good" become a thing?  It's not as if "good" has fewer syllables or is easier to pronounce than "well". 

The use of "good" for "well" can make me twitch as much as "me" for "I" and vice versa, but in the instance of "It's going good," at least there's the excuse that it makes an alliteration. 
Plus, it is likely a response from a friend whose troubles have been concerning.

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