Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[StatisticalOutlier]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Just because it’s the end of a line in a poem

But some of the other lines don't end with a comma.

[dargosmydaddy]

And poem lines don't need to end with any punctuation, if you wouldn't normally put it there in a "regular" sentence.

Edited January 9 by dargosmydaddy

[fastiller]

12 hours ago, dargosmydaddy said:

And poem lines don't need to end with any punctuation, if you wouldn't normally put it there in a "regular" sentence.

Poems lines don't need to end with any punctuation at all, even if you would normally put it in a 'regular' sentence.  That's the absolute beauty of poetry.  

[EtheltoTillie]

14 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Just because it’s the end of a line in a poem — I still need to reprint it, so I could nix the comma…

I would leave the comma. It adds a little pause that I think is appropriate. 

Grammar does not have to be exact in poetry 

[fastiller]

This is more about spelling than grammar, but there's no spelling-related thread here.  A client just replied to and email one of my colleagues sent; it was colleague's third reminder Client was replying to.  Client who did the response is the co-owner and he called out two of his employees asking that they respond 'IN A TIMLEY MANNER!!!!".  Timley Manor sounds like the Crawleys' neighbours in Downton Abbey.

Edited January 10 by fastiller
punctuation - ironic, eh?

[shapeshifter]

On 1/9/2025 at 8:11 AM, EtheltoTillie said:

I would leave the comma. It adds a little pause that I think is appropriate. 

Grammar does not have to be exact in poetry 

Thanks for this. It rang true for me.
For any who wondered about the "final" wording 
(others feel free to ignore)
I decided the long E sound of the first line of "Sloop John B" was iconic for me, so:

• Gramma came over and we,
  Built a house out of couch cushions,
  And in a pretend car,
  We went out on pretend missions,
  Stopped for lots of pretend animals,
  …who were crossing the road,
  Then later we came to know
  …mixing only blue and yellow playdough,
  To make a snake that became a gecko      
  …with arms,
  Can be nicer than mixing
      all colors into brown.

 

I want to chop a syllable out of:

• Stopped for lots of pretend animals

Maybe:

• Stopped lots for pretend animals

— or is that grammatically incorrect? 
It seems like it. But maybe it's just odd?

 

[Zella]

4 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I want to chop a syllable out of:

• Stopped for lots of pretend animals

Maybe:

• Stopped lots for pretend animals

— or is that grammatically incorrect? 
It seems like it. But maybe it's just odd?

I don't think it sounds as good to me personally, but more than anything it subtly changes the meaning. Rather than stopping (however many times) for lots of pretend animals, it is now stopping a lot of times for pretend animals (however many of them there are). It would depend on where you want your emphasis on what there is a lot of--the number of animals or the act of stopping. 

[EtheltoTillie]

I agree, keep the original line stopped for lots of pretend animals. 

[shapeshifter]

28 minutes ago, Zella said:

Rather than stopping (however many times) for lots of pretend animals, it is now stopping a lot of times for pretend animals (however many of them there are).

LOL, I think it's sometimes stopping a lot for the same animal and sometimes stopping for different animals.

By the time I'm done with this, I probably could have embroidered it, heh.

 

Edited January 11 by shapeshifter

[Zella]

15 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

LOL, I think it's sometimes stopping a lot for the same animal and sometimes stopping for different animals.

Stopped lots for lots of pretend animals! 😆

[Browncoat]

I like the first version better (without the comma at the end of the first line), but if you keep the second version, I'd lose a lot of those commas.

[Ancaster]

Sammich.

Anyhoo.

I want this so bad.

Drownding.

The above are all things I've seen written and heard, but I'll add "pivot" as a word that just irritates me.

[SoMuchTV]

19 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

Drownding

That one takes me back! Many many years ago, one of my father’s go-to verses was

Adam and Eve and pinch-me

Went down to the river to bathe. 

Adam and Eve were drownded. 

Who do you think was saved?

 

[ABay]

Pivot was so overused during the pandemic that there should be a moratorium on using it. And if I never hear the word iconic again it will be too soon.

[isalicat]

18 hours ago, ABay said:

Pivot was so overused during the pandemic that there should be a moratorium on using it. And if I never hear the word iconic again it will be too soon.

That is how I feel about "impactful"...I still don't think that is a real word. (la la la la - fingers in my ears)

[Zella]

8 minutes ago, isalicat said:

That is how I feel about "impactful"...I still don't think that is a real word. (la la la la - fingers in my ears)

Every time someone says something impacted them, all I can think is "it gave you a painful bowel condition?" 

[shapeshifter]

19 minutes ago, isalicat said:

That is how I feel about "impactful"...I still don't think that is a real word. (la la la la - fingers in my ears)

Very rarely does a buzz word bother me, I think because my Dad tried to be aware of them and use them into his 80s. As the first US-born child of immigrants who were very Old World in their style and spoke with accents, he wanted to appear to be as cool as Frank Sinatra, and buzz words were a way into that personna, as well as a means of demonstrating later in life that he was not an "old fogey." 

But it's different now. There are so many transient neologisms now that I don't think it's necessary to keep up with them unless, maybe, for pub trivia nights.

[SVNBob]

On 1/15/2025 at 2:32 PM, shapeshifter said:

There are so many transient neologisms now that I don't think it's necessary to keep up with them unless, maybe, for pub trivia nights.

Transient Neologisms is a good pub quiz team name.

[Ancaster]

On 1/16/2025 at 10:14 PM, SVNBob said:

Transient Neologisms is a good pub quiz team name.

Or if they never last long they could be the neo transients.

[Milburn Stone]

On 1/15/2025 at 2:32 PM, shapeshifter said:

Very rarely does a buzz word bother me, I think because my Dad tried to be aware of them and use them into his 80s. As the first US-born child of immigrants who were very Old World in their style and spoke with accents, he wanted to appear to be as cool as Frank Sinatra, and buzz words were a way into that personna, as well as a means of demonstrating later in life that he was not an "old fogey." 

I'm that guy plus a layer of irony. Depending who I'm talking to (yes, I know it's whom, but I'm not that pedantic) I seem to enjoy dropping in the "latest word all the kids are saying" but with a shared understanding that I know exactly what I'm doing. If that makes it any better.

[Ancaster]

You*  think you're being intellectual by using big words like albeit.  You're not.

  "These taste like buttery french fries, albeit they are/look completely different."

* "You" as in "one", not someone from Primetimer.

Edited Monday at 12:05 AM by Ancaster

[tearknee]

Most people are not intellectuals. The last thing a tertiary educated intellectual are is John or Jane Q. Public.

On 1/15/2025 at 11:42 AM, SoMuchTV said:

That one takes me back! Many many years ago, one of my father’s go-to verses was

Adam and Eve and pinch-me

Went down to the river to bathe. 

Adam and Eve were drownded. 

Who do you think was saved?

 

Well, pinch me obviously but - OW!

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, Ancaster said:

You think you're being intellectual by using big words like albeit.  You're not.

  "These taste like buttery french fries, albeit they are look completely different."

Not sure where you found the quote, but maybe it was ChatGPT generated?
Or “albeit” was just an autocorrect for a misspelling of although??
Or maybe they were trying to avoid using “but” and stumbled upon “albeit” — which does support your conclusion as to how “albeit” wound up in that sentence.

[Quof]

WTF are buttery French fries?

[shapeshifter]

2 minutes ago, Quof said:

WTF are buttery French fries?

LOL. I thought it was just a local reference with which I was not familiar, but, yeah, probably the entire sentence was AI/Chat-GPT generated.

[shapeshifter]

On Jeopardy! last night, during the interviews, Ken Jennings said, “Because you're younger than me…”

Since it was Ken Jennings, I wondered if he in part chose to use "me" instead of "I" just to bug pendantics like us.

Edited January 24 by shapeshifter

[Mondrianyone]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Since it was Ken Jennings, I wondered if he in part chose to use "me" instead of "I" just to bug pendantics like us.

Pedants.

Also "younger than me" is perfectly acceptable. It's less stuffy than "younger than I am young."

[Lugal]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

On Jeopardy! last night, during the interviews, Ken Jennings said, “Because you're younger than me…”

Since it was Ken Jennings, I wondered if he in part chose to use "me" instead of "I" just to bug pendantics like us.

Looking into this, it gets crazy.  When than is used as a conjunction it governs the nominative case, "younger than I am."  But when used as a preposition it governs the oblique case, "younger than me."  However, some think that as a preposition it should take the nominative as well ("younger than I"), but then it must also be followed by whom, (as in "younger than whom") which violates that rule.🤯

[fastiller]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

On Jeopardy! last night, during the interviews, Ken Jennings said, “Because you're younger than me…”

Since it was Ken Jennings, I wondered if he in part chose to use "me" instead of "I" just to bug pendantics like us.

 

35 minutes ago, Mondrianyone said:

Pedants.

Also "younger than me" is perfectly acceptable. It's less stuffy than "younger than I am young."

 

There's an online (Patreon) radio program* I listen to where we listeners** along with the host intentionally call ourselves pendants when we point out pedantic errors.  In fact we have  'pendants corner'.

* Shaun W Keaveney's Community Garden Radio.  Longtime listeners to BBC Radio 6 Music will recognize him from his shows there.  He's also got a weekly show on BBC2 on Fridays at 2300.
** Gardeners.

 

3 minutes ago, Lugal said:

Looking into this, it gets crazy.  When than is used as a conjunction it governs the nominative case, "younger than I am."  But when used as a preposition it governs the oblique case, "younger than me."  However, some think that as a preposition it should take the nominative as well ("younger than I"), but then it must also be followed by whom, (as in "younger than whom") which violates that rule.🤯

Crazy?  Like the entirety of the English language.  English has something like 200+ irregular verbs.  By comparison, Irish has 11.

[SoMuchTV]

3 hours ago, fastiller said:

There's an online (Patreon) radio program* I listen to where we listeners** along with the host intentionally call ourselves pendants when we point out pedantic errors.  In fact we have  'pendants corner'.

* Shaun W Keaveney's Community Garden Radio.  Longtime listeners to BBC Radio 6 Music will recognize him from his shows there.  He's also got a weekly show on BBC2 on Fridays at 2300.
** Gardeners.

Haha.  Did you have "pedant" pendants made up to wear while in the corner?

[fastiller]

22 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Haha.  Did you have "pedant" pendants made up to wear while in the corner?

We should do!

[Ancaster]

.

Edited January 26 by Ancaster
Removed objectionable quote.

[Ancaster]

.

Edited January 26 by Ancaster
Seems I shouldn't post here anymore.

[SoMuchTV]

5 hours ago, Ancaster said:

.

.

Edited Monday at 01:37 AM by SoMuchTV
I think we’re all good here. Hope I didn’t overstep or offend anyone

[StatisticalOutlier]

Well, it's over.  The New Yorker spelled it miniscule.

[SoMuchTV]

13 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Well, it's over.  The New Yorker spelled it miniscule.

Link please!!!

[StatisticalOutlier]

15 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Link please!!!

I read the print edition.  August 24, 2024, page five, third column, eighth line from the bottom, in the mere-shadow-of-its-former-self "Goings On" section:  "...and Soho Rep bids farewell to the scrappy, miniscule Walker Space..."

Here's an online version, but it's paywalled. 

https://www.newyorker.com/culture/goings-on/fall-culture-preview

[StatisticalOutlier]

I swear I'm going to lose my mind.

This isn't paywalled.  It includes a link to a poem it calls "Miniscule Things."

https://www.newyorker.com/contributors/william-matthews

If you click on "Miniscule Things" it shows an image of the print edition, and the poem is called "Minuscule Things."

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/1986/02/10/miniscule-things

WTF.

 

[SVNBob]

I can see how this happened. 

Most English speakers associate "mini-" with "small".  So an adjective describing something as small would logically be spelled with those syllables at the start.  Even if the word is properly spelled "minuscule". 

That's why "miniscule" became an alternate spelling listed in several dictionaries.  So it's not totally wrong, but it isn't exactly correct either.

[nokat]

On 1/24/2025 at 8:11 AM, shapeshifter said:

On Jeopardy! last night, during the interviews, Ken Jennings said, “Because you're younger than me…”

Since it was Ken Jennings, I wondered if he in part chose to use "me" instead of "I" just to bug pendantics like us.

Some of us already think he is pretentious. Of course it is "younger than I (am), but I get tired of people saying "I" when it should be me.

[StatisticalOutlier]

9 hours ago, SVNBob said:

Most English speakers

We're talking about The New Yorker, where they still use centimetre.

[Mondrianyone]

When I was about 22, I was reading the New Yorker and found they had spelled "Dalmatian," the dog, as "Dalmation." So I fired off a letter asking them if "dalmation was the act of dalmating." I thought I was very clever at the time, but eventually I grew up.

To their credit, they replied with thanks but no free subscription.

[fastiller]

And then there’s their use of the dïäërësïs!!!

[SoMuchTV]

I know this is a “me” issue, and not exactly grammar (more pronunciation, or maybe dialect? Or accent?) but permit me to gripe about some of the little stuff, maybe to take my mind off of the big stuff. 

I’ve just listened to two (different, unrelated) podcasts in a row where the main speaker put extreme emphasis on the “t” sound. Like I would expect to hear if someone asked “did you say tidal” - “no, TiTle”. 

Except every word with a “t” sound emphasized it like that. I know it’s technically correct and I don’t know why it annoyed me so much, but here we are. 

[nokat]

19 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I know this is a “me” issue, and not exactly grammar (more pronunciation, or maybe dialect? Or accent?) but permit me to gripe about some of the little stuff, maybe to take my mind off of the big stuff. 

I’ve just listened to two (different, unrelated) podcasts in a row where the main speaker put extreme emphasis on the “t” sound. Like I would expect to hear if someone asked “did you say tidal” - “no, TiTle”. 

Except every word with a “t” sound emphasized it like that. I know it’s technically correct and I don’t know why it annoyed me so much, but here we are. 

It is definitely regional. I would  pronounce it as tie-dull. American English, we do like our T sounds. Not that much, though.

[SoMuchTV]

46 minutes ago, nokat said:

It is definitely regional. I would  pronounce it as tie-dull. American English, we do like our T sounds. Not that much, though.

I would have thought just the opposite. I thought Americans were thought to be lazy about the T sound. 

I remember the mom of one of my kid’s friends, who was not a native English speaker, pronounced her daughter’s name as briTTany. I thought it was endearing coming from her, but not the way I expected most people to say it.