Why Grammar Matters: A Place To Discuss Matters Of Grammar

[EtheltoTillie]

@shapeshifter A follow up--copy editor's golden rule:  when in doubt recast the whole sentence. 

Edited November 18 by EtheltoTillie

[Milburn Stone]

@shapeshifter, although the way you wrote it definitely sounds wrong, it is right.

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I just posted an uneditable, undeletable comment elsewhere that included:

• "One of several troubleshooting thoughts that comes to mind"

It probably should have been:

• "One of several troubleshooting thoughts that come to mind"

Right?
Or…?

3 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

@shapeshifter A follow up--copy editor's golden rule:  when in doubt recast the whole sentence. 

23 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

@shapeshifter, although the way you wrote it definitely sounds wrong, it is right.

Yes to both of the above. In hindsight it should have just been:

• Try this…

 

[meep.meep]

6 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I just posted an uneditable, undeletable comment elsewhere that included:

• "One of several troubleshooting thoughts that comes to mind"

It probably should have been:

• "One of several troubleshooting thoughts that come to mind"

Right?
Or…?

Shouldn't we try to be less passive?  "one of several troubleshooting thoughts coming to mind"

But...you probably mean "troubling" not "troubleshooting" - Troubleshooting is a systematic process for identifying and fixing the cause of a problem.

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Shouldn't we try to be less passive?

Just an FYI, but there was nothing passive in that original sentence. Grammatically, passive voice has a BE verb combined with a past participle verb. That sentence has neither. 

[shapeshifter]

7 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

Shouldn't we try to be less passive?  "one of several troubleshooting thoughts coming to mind"

But...you probably mean "troubling" not "troubleshooting" - Troubleshooting is a systematic process for identifying and fixing the cause of a problem.

Actually, it was about troubleshooting a technical problem about posting comments on another social media site.

Anyhoo, the person replied that they didn't understand my suggestion, and gave some more information about the problem.
So I just replied:

• My directions were not clear. Sorry.
  Just try this:
  1) After you [blah blah blah]
  2) [blah blah blah]
  3) [blah blah blah] and hit Submit.
  🤞

Thanks to everyone here. 
Syntax does matter!

[SoMuchTV]

22 minutes ago, meep.meep said:

But...you probably mean "troubling" not "troubleshooting" - Troubleshooting is a systematic process for identifying and fixing the cause of a problem.

“Troubling thoughts” and “troubleshooting thoughts” are two very different things, and I’m going to assume @shapeshifter knew which she was talking about here. But sounds like the situation was resolved satisfactorily. 

And imo someone who’s looking for troubleshooting assistance is in no position to criticize the grammar of said troubleshooting assistant! 

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, SoMuchTV said:

And imo someone who’s looking for troubleshooting assistance is in no position to criticize the grammar of said troubleshooting assistant! 

They were just confused and not critical.
I was self-critiquing as soon as my post was submitted, because I knew it was confusing. At first I focused on a possible grammatical error, but now I realize it was mostly just too many extraneous, distracting words.

I really appreciate being able to edit our posts here, but posting places where editing is not an option is teaching me to edit first, post second, which is kind of the 21st century version of "measure twice; cut once."😉

Hopefully my shorter reply will help. 

Thanks again, everyone.

[Milburn Stone]

Re passive voice, I feel like fifty years ago there was this dogmatic anti-passive movement, and people who aspire to be good writers (and maybe more to the point, are nervous that they might be bad writers) have been treating it like the plague ever since. Passive voice exists for a reason! Writers should evaluate which voice, active or passive, better communicates their intended tone on a case by case basis. Don't throw away a tool in the toolbox for no good reason.

[annzeepark914]

On 11/18/2024 at 12:18 PM, shapeshifter said:

I just posted an uneditable, undeletable comment elsewhere that included:

• "One of several troubleshooting thoughts that comes to mind"

It probably should have been:

• "One of several troubleshooting thoughts that come to mind"

Right?
Or…?

IMO:

"One (of several troubleshooting thoughts) that comes to mind"

[Milburn Stone]

19 hours ago, annzeepark914 said:

IMO:

"One (of several troubleshooting thoughts) that comes to mind"

Or, in keeping with @EtheltoTillie's advice:

Several troubleshooting thoughts come to mind. Here's one.

[StatisticalOutlier]

On 11/16/2024 at 5:11 AM, shapeshifter said:

to correct all the spelling and grammar mistakes they find in graffiti

Can they pivot to a worldwide presence and correct the mistakes in memes?

I've been known to use a Sharpie to correct interpretation panels or whatever they're called at places like national parks, but a few years ago a couple of people got arrested for doing that, so I'm pretty careful about where I do it now.

What's annoying is that I once came across one where someone had corrected it incorrectly.  Like they put an apostrophe somewhere where it didn't actually call for one.  That's the problem with self-appointed grammar/punctuation police.

 

[shapeshifter]

51 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

What's annoying is that I once came across one where someone had corrected it incorrectly.  Like they put an apostrophe somewhere where it didn't actually call for one.  That's the problem with self-appointed grammar/punctuation police.

At least my added apostrophe was for a sign at my condo's pool that read:
“Its 5 o'clock somewhere”
and now reads: 
“It's 5 o'clock somewhere”

Perhaps we need to establish a Guild of Public Grammar Correctors.

[Anduin]

We were all taught I before E except after C. But I was just writing freighter and it looked wrong. I had to check. EI! Someone's going to tell me how it came over from the French sometime in the 15th century. Go for it, but I just wanted to point out the weirdness. And there's another one!

[shapeshifter]

34 minutes ago, Anduin said:

We were all taught I before E except after C. But I was just writing freighter and it looked wrong.

I've also heard:

• I before E except after C, or when sounding like A, as in neighbor or weigh.

But now I see there is an even longer version:

• I before E except after C,
  or when sounding like A,
  as in neighbor or weigh,
  but seizure and seize 
  do what they please.
        (see Wikipedia)

I was the 4th grade spelling champion over half a century ago after much coaching with flash cards by my Mom.
Nowadays I Google a spelling at least once a day, and I'm so grateful to be able to do it.

Edited November 25 by shapeshifter

[EtheltoTillie]

My last name has ei pronounced as A. No one can pronounce it correctly on first meeting/reading. 

That’s what you get for how they spelled things at Ellis Island from the Russian alphabet.

Edited November 25 by EtheltoTillie

[Anduin]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I've also heard:

• I before E except after C, or when sounding like A, as in neighbor or weigh.

But now I see there is an even longer version:

Bloody English. Just when you think you've got it, along comes another exception. Are other languages so full of edge cases and exceptions, or is English just dumb?

[SVNBob]

It's been said that English isn't actually a language.  It's 3 dialects in a trenchcoat that go around mugging actual languages for loose verbiage and grammar.

[fastiller]

2 hours ago, SVNBob said:

It's been said that English isn't actually a language.  It's 3 dialects in a trenchcoat that go around mugging actual languages for loose verbiage and grammar.

One of my favourite memes (it's the image I like mostly):

[EtheltoTillie]

I bought a cheese grater.  The sharp-blade warning on the side of the box is captioned "Notes to be Attentioned." 

It says it's made in the USA, but I dunno. 

I haven't tried it yet.  It's one of those gadgets with a handle and a rotating cylinder grating element.  I'll review it in the gadget thread if I ever get around to trying it.

 

[fairffaxx]

4 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I bought a cheese grater.  The sharp-blade warning on the side of the box is captioned "Notes to be Attentioned." 

The traffic reporter on a San Francisco radio station told us yesterday morning that crews were "efforting" to clear lanes after an accident on the freeway.  Verbification lives!

[SweetieDarling]

From a local Baltimore news website:

Quote

Investigation revealed that 66-year-old Lorraine O’Neill was driving with a 7-year-old in the passenger seat, who police believe is the child’s grandmother.

A 7 year old grandmother?

[tearknee]

Obviously from a previous marriage *innocent look*.

Edited November 26 by tearknee

[fastiller]

57 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I bought a cheese grater.  The sharp-blade warning on the side of the box is captioned "Notes to be Attentioned." 

It says it's made in the USA, but I dunno. 

I haven't tried it yet.  It's one of those gadgets with a handle and a rotating cylinder grating element.  I'll review it in the gadget thread if I ever get around to trying it.

 

The grater was made in the USA, but the box was printed elsewhere?  Maybe?

[EtheltoTillie]

As we were discussing the guerilla sign copy editors recently, I invite the members of this group to copy edit this sign from the NYC subway (taken this morning).  I did not have the guts to deface the panel with a Sharpie.  Ignore my ghostly reflection in the glass.

[Crashcourse]

This isn't a question of grammar, but pronunciation.  I've heard people pronouncing "route" as "root" and "rout."   The funny (and weird) thing is, I pronounce either of them depending on the road.    

[SweetieDarling]

I think they are used interchangeably. I say this because i was trying to figure out under what circumstances I've heard one or the other pronunciation, and concluded they both sounded appropriate in each case(to me). For roads it's usually "root" though I have heard "rout" as well. 🤷‍♀️

Maybe it's another regional dialect thing

Edited November 26 by SweetieDarling

[ebk57]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

As we were discussing the guerilla sign copy editors recently, I invite the members of this group to copy edit this sign from the NYC subway (taken this morning).  I did not have the guts to deface the panel with a Sharpie.  Ignore my ghostly reflection in the glass.

I have no grammar tips, but...do I have to download the OMNY app, or can I just use my credit card? Asking to prepare for my January trip. ☺️

[EtheltoTillie]

23 minutes ago, ebk57 said:

I have no grammar tips, but...do I have to download the OMNY app, or can I just use my credit card? Asking to prepare for my January trip. ☺️

You can just use your credit card, but if you are over 65 (are you?) you can get half fare in a different fashion.  I have a permanent half fare pass, but tourists can get a temporary one by showing ID at a booth and loading it up at the kiosk. 

[Anduin]

1 hour ago, Crashcourse said:

This isn't a question of grammar, but pronunciation.  I've heard people pronouncing "route" as "root" and "rout."   The funny (and weird) thing is, I pronounce either of them depending on the road.    

Rout is common in Oz, because root is another word for fuck. Not in the 'go root yourself' way, but more 'I'm rooted' when you're tired or 'I I had a root last night' way. Rooting for your team always makes me laugh.

[ebk57]

4 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

You can just use your credit card, but if you are over 65 (are you?) you can get half fare in a different fashion.  I have a permanent half fare pass, but tourists can get a temporary one by showing ID at a booth and loading it up at the kiosk. 

Oh, thanks for this info!  I'll look into it before the trip.

[StatisticalOutlier]

2 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

As we were discussing the guerilla sign copy editors recently, I invite the members of this group to copy edit this sign from the NYC subway (taken this morning). 

Okay, I give up.  I'm not a fan of the "Tapping is..." sentence, but I give a lot of slack to signs if the meaning is clear.  There's only so much you can do within the limitations of a sign.  But no slack for misspelled words or bad punctuation, of course.  There are no limitations that excuse that.

[EtheltoTillie]

35 minutes ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Okay, I give up.  I'm not a fan of the "Tapping is..." sentence, but I give a lot of slack to signs if the meaning is clear.  There's only so much you can do within the limitations of a sign.  But no slack for misspelled words or bad punctuation, of course.  There are no limitations that excuse that.

I'll wait for a few more people to weigh in before I give an answer. 

Come on, grammar peeps. 

[EtheltoTillie]

1 hour ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

Okay, I give up.  I'm not a fan of the "Tapping is..." sentence, but I give a lot of slack to signs if the meaning is clear.  There's only so much you can do within the limitations of a sign.  But no slack for misspelled words or bad punctuation, of course.  There are no limitations that excuse that.

Hint, it involves punctuation.

[shapeshifter]

8 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Hint, it involves punctuation.

The commas don't bother me, but I'm really not sure what "$34 is the most you'll pay over 7 days" means; the sign doesn't give any other amount to compare it with. 

And, yes, I learned to write before computers, so there's nothing wrong with ending the sentence with that preposition. It's not dangling. It's just hanging out. Like at the malt shoppe. Okay. I'm not quite that olde.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, Crashcourse said:

This isn't a question of grammar, but pronunciation.  I've heard people pronouncing "route" as "root" and "rout."   The funny (and weird) thing is, I pronounce either of them depending on the road.    

2 hours ago, SweetieDarling said:

Maybe it's another regional dialect thing

Yes. At least it used to be a "regional dialect thing."
I never heard the "rout" pronunciation until we moved from the East Coast to the Midwest in 1963.
But now it seems pronunciation varies by context. 
Sort of like code switching.

 

[SoMuchTV]

5 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

As we were discussing the guerilla sign copy editors recently, I invite the members of this group to copy edit this sign from the NYC subway (taken this morning).  I did not have the guts to deface the panel with a Sharpie.  Ignore my ghostly reflection in the glass.

Okay I’ll bite. Is the issue “tapping is faster, more flexible, and you pay as you go”? Should be “tapping is faster and more flexible, and you pay as you go”? If it’s not that, then I don’t see what the issue is. 

Or maybe lack of a period after Metrocard?

[EtheltoTillie]

16 minutes ago, SoMuchTV said:

Okay I’ll bite. Is the issue “tapping is faster, more flexible, and you pay as you go”? Should be “tapping is faster and more flexible, and you pay as you go”? If it’s not that, then I don’t see what the issue is. 

Or maybe lack of a period after Metrocard?

DING DING DING!   We have a winner.  Faulty parallelism.

Edited November 27 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

Less important is that there should be a comma after "Start any day" but that's less egregious.

For anyone who was confused by the whole $34 thing, it's a confusing explanation of the unlimited ride benefit, which allows you to max out at $34 in any one seven-day period.  Each ride is $2.90.  After you spend $34 (12 rides), the remainder of your rides are free if you have any days left in the week.  The counting starts with your first tap.  Since I don't use that method, I'm not sure how they really do the counts where a new week might start and be more advantageous for you. 

Tourists should also know that NYC Transit includes free transfers between buses and subways.  So if you swipe on the crosstown bus and then switch to the subway to go downtown, for example, there is no extra charge.  Transfers between buses are also free and transfers between trains are free.  Also, there's only one flat fare, no zones. 

Edited November 27 by EtheltoTillie

[Zella]

This has required deep meditation on my part, but I think I usually say "rout" for route. But I will always say Route 66 as "root."

So, I would say "Which rout are we taking to Root 66?"

Like Whitman, I am large. I contain multitudes. 

For reference, I am from the American South. 

[Quof]

7 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

The counting starts with your first tap.  Since I don't use that method, I'm not sure how they really do the counts where a new week might start and be more advantageous for you. 

As a frequent tourist in NYC:- you can buy a MetroCard with a 7 day unlimited pass (~$34) that starts with the first swipe regardless of the day of the week.  When OMNY was brought it in, you would be charged for each tap but there was a function that maxed out at ~$34 only between Monday and Sunday, so if you arrived on Wednesday, you were screwed.  OMNY has now changed so it's 7 days, starting any day of the week, but there are frequent reports that the cap doesn't work properly and you continue to get charged after the 12th ride.  I'm not pulling out my phone or credit card each time I go through the turnstile.  They'll pry the MetroCard from my cold, dead hand. 

[EtheltoTillie]

2 hours ago, Quof said:

As a frequent tourist in NYC:- you can buy a MetroCard with a 7 day unlimited pass (~$34) that starts with the first swipe regardless of the day of the week.  When OMNY was brought it in, you would be charged for each tap but there was a function that maxed out at ~$34 only between Monday and Sunday, so if you arrived on Wednesday, you were screwed.  OMNY has now changed so it's 7 days, starting any day of the week, but there are frequent reports that the cap doesn't work properly and you continue to get charged after the 12th ride.  I'm not pulling out my phone or credit card each time I go through the turnstile.  They'll pry the MetroCard from my cold, dead hand. 

I used to buy the 30-day unlimited card--in fact I had it set to refill automatically from my credit card every 30 days--but when I turned 65, I got the dedicated half-fare card.  It charges per ride but also maxes out at a certain amount per month.

Aren't you a senior, though?  If so, you should not buy the 7-day card but rather get the temporary senior card and fill it at the kiosk.  That's the only way for a short-term visitor to get a half fare pass. 

Edited November 27 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

They don't want to publicize that they still have the 7-day unlimited card.  They want everyone to tap, because they are in the process of removing the swiping devices.  I see so many people using their phones, which is an annoying process.  It's not an app, believe it or not, so you have to open your Apple wallet before  you get to the turnstile.

In any event, they have not removed the swiping devices yet, so I can still use my senior swiping card.  My card automatically refills on my credit card.  They have supposedly developed some kind of OMNY tapping card for seniors, and supposedly there is some super complicated way I could change my senior card to the phone, but I do  not want to do that until they pry it from my cold, dead hand.  When that happens, I won't mind having an OMNY tapping card.

Edited November 27 by EtheltoTillie

[Milburn Stone]

Damn, I was going to say the headline needs a period, but @SoMuchTV beat me to the punch!

[Quof]

3 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Aren't you a senior, though?

Hey!! Hey!  I thought we were friends???? 

Despite having practised law for what seems like a donkey's age, I am many years away from being a "senior".

Small voice - perhaps I just post like a grumpy old lady? 

[EtheltoTillie]

3 minutes ago, Quof said:

Hey!! Hey!  I thought we were friends???? 

Despite having practised law for what seems like a donkey's age, I am many years away from being a "senior".

Small voice - perhaps I just post like a grumpy old lady? 

Oh, I may have misunderstood past discussions about how long you've been practicing or whatever . . .  Sorry! 

[Ancaster]

November 26

From a local Baltimore news website:

  Quote

Investigation revealed that 66-year-old Lorraine O’Neill was driving with a 7-year-old in the passenger seat, who police believe is the child’s grandmother.

A 7 year old grandmother?

 

Not to mention a passenger seat that's a grandmother.

[shapeshifter]

From a song posted by someone who almost died of Pericarditis:

• “I got a heart like a truck
  It's been drug through the mud
  Runs on dreams and gasoline
  And that ole highway holds the key.“
  
  https://youtu.be/w_XUqnsEfEQ

I don’t recall having heard ”drug” used as a verb prior to listening to this song.

[Anduin]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

From a song posted by someone who almost died of Pericarditis:

• “I got a heart like a truck
  It's been drug through the mud
  Runs on dreams and gasoline
  And that ole highway holds the key.“
  
  https://youtu.be/w_XUqnsEfEQ

I don’t recall having heard ”drug” used as a verb prior to listening to this song.

I have, here and there. Not the most common use, but I've heard it.

[Milburn Stone]

I'm more troubled by the image of a highway holding a key.