S22.E18: Collateral Damage

[WendyCR72]

Airing April 6, 2023:

Quote

When a young woman dies a slow and painful death from an untreated infection, Cosgrove and Shaw suspect she was under the influence of a powerful cult. Price and Maroun put pressure on its members to find the cult's true mastermind.

 

[Xeliou66]

Sounds like a different type of case. I hope this is a rebound episode after last week’s catastrophe. 

[dubbel zout]

Overreach on bail much, Maroun? For the charges, $1 million was ridiculously high.

Again with the lack of preparation, with Price and Maroun not knowing about Lodestar until the witness testifies. At least Jack asked why they didn't know anything until now, but it doesn't excuse them not doing more digging. As usual.

I'm starting to think the show not-so-secretly hates district attorneys. Or someone has a real axe to grind against the justice system. The writing for Price and Maroun consistently makes them look really dumb.

On a very shallow note, that raspberry suit Maroun wore at the end was fantastic.

[shapeshifter]

13 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Again with the lack of preparation, with Price and Maroun not knowing about Lodestar until the witness testifies.

Up until the Elephant reveal, I kept expecting every next line to be "follow the money."
Haven't these characters ever watched Law & Order? Or The Closer? Or Matlock?

[MerBearHou]

The actress who played Jocelyn was laughably bad.  She went to the acting school of “make evil eyes and look like you smelled something bad over and over and over” to convey contempt.  

[shapeshifter]

26 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

The actress who played Jocelyn was laughably bad.  She went to the acting school of “make evil eyes and look like you smelled something bad over and over and over” to convey contempt.  

To be fair, she didn’t have any lines during the smirk acting. I was actually imagining that she was selected for the part due to her ability to smirk.  
Same with the actress with the very wide open eyes who was selected by Cosgrove at the house because she gave the universal distress hand sign. 

[Xeliou66]

Good episode. Some minor flaws but overall a solid bounce back episode after last week’s mess.

The flaw was that no one knew of Elfont’s involvement until trial - I would’ve liked more explanation of that, at least Jack asked the question, but how did that not know of Jocelyn giving money to him? Wouldn’t a deep dive into her financials turn that up? Maybe they used secret bank accounts offshore or something, but I would’ve liked more explanation into how he remained hidden, I get no one in the cult was talking but it seemed like some trace of him would turn up. More exploration was needed. Other than that, this was pretty strong.

I love the Cosgrove/Shaw pairing, the detective side was great, good investigative work, some classic wisecracks, and we even saw them visit the ME! That felt like classic L&O. The detective side has really gelled this season and is very enjoyable to watch.

I liked the ending - the twist of Elfont getting killed in prison, I didn’t see it coming, I figured one of the cult members would wind up dead in a last minute twist and I liked how that didn’t happen. I was totally on Maroun’s side about Jocelyn - while she had been lured in, she was still responsible to a degree for the victim’s death and deserved to go to prison. I wasn’t sure why Nolan was sympathetic or willing to be so lenient with her - she needed to pay for her responsibility in the victim’s death, and I was glad she did. I liked Maroun’s passion about the case, although I did think she asked for excessive bail at arraignment.

I enjoyed Jack’s scenes as usual and I liked how he reminded Nolan he wasn’t Jocelyn’s lawyer and he was doing his job as a prosecutor - words of wisdom as usual from Jack.

No foot chases were a bonus!

So overall this was a good episode, a creepy and weird case but pulled off pretty well - the detective stuff was strong as usual and there were no glaring flaws in the legal decisions as there have been in some episodes, and no last minute twists or foot chases were a plus. Not perfect but a big improvement from last week and a solid episode.

[Raja]

9 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I love the Cosgrove/Shaw pairing, the detective side was great, good investigative work, some classic wisecracks, and we even saw them visit the ME! That felt like classic L&O. The detective side has really gelled this season and is very enjoyable to watch.

However LT Dixon suffered in the screen time and what's her point role. But in her relative absence ADA Maroun being there to give the charge her decision  and actually seeing the arrangement. And later brought out her inner Abby Carmichael again with dealing with the cult member/potential witnesses.

[EtheltoTillie]

Another preposterous episode.  Maybe not as bad as last week, but still terrible writing—for the legal side.

Two giant flaws. I thought they couldn’t top the ludicrous twist where they said they had Siena as a witness but then they had to suddenly bring her in to discuss cooperating. How could that have not been done before?  Then they sprang the cult leader on us in the last 10 mins, and even pulled an Epstein. Ugh. 

The detective segments continue to be outstanding. 

Edited April 7, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Then they sprang the cult leader on us in the last 10 mins, and even pulled an Epstein. Ugh. 

The detective segments continue to be outstanding. 

This👆 kind of writing disparity between the well-written Law/detective segments and the absurd Order/prosecution segments make me wonder if the writers are winging it without legal consultants who were employed during seasons 1 through 20?

[EtheltoTillie]

Wait, I forgot to say not only did they spring the cult leader at the end, but it was on the stand!    I don't practice criminal law, but I know better than this.  You don't want to be sandbagged by anything in any hearing or trial, civil or criminal. So you have to do due diligence.  ( It happens anyway sometimes, no matter how hard you try, because clients hide things they don't want you to know.  They always say "I didn't think it was important."  or "I didn't know you meant that when you asked the question." ) But here, the gaping maw was obvious. They just thought this house of girls was living alone there with that one woman in charge?  And they already knew about Nexium and other cults, but they never thought a man was behind it?

Edited April 7, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

But here, the gaping maw was obvious. They just thought this house of girls was living alone there with that one woman in charge?  And they already knew about Nexium and other cults, but they never thought a man was behind it?

Ugh, I know. It was a cult, of course there's some overlord. That doesn't occur to the prosecution until it's brought up in the trial? It's infuriating to watch this sort of thing happen over and over.

[EtheltoTillie]

Sorry, I just can't get over this stupidity. They have the witness on the stand and they ask, Wait--Lodestar is a person?

Wouldn't you have asked "What's Lodestar" before then?  Who invented it? Wouldn't you have delved some more?   Gah.

Edited April 7, 2023 by EtheltoTillie

[blackwing]

10 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Another preposterous episode.  Maybe not as bad as last week, but still terrible writing—for the legal side.

Two giant flaws. I thought they couldn’t top the ludicrous twist where they said they had Siena as a witness but then they had to suddenly bring her in to discuss cooperating. How could that have not been done before?  Then they sprang the cult leader on us in the last 10 mins, and even pulled an Epstein. Ugh. 

The detective segments continue to be outstanding. 

Agreed.  The fact that they didn't know that Lodestar was a person was ridiculous.  It seems they thought that Jocelyn was the cult leader.  Wouldn't they have thoroughly investigated the cult and her finances?  They would have seen that she was making large payments to someone and would have figured out on their own who that someone is.

Also, during Jocelyn's trial, they discover this new person of interest.  So then what happened?  They asked the court for an indefinite recess while they went and followed up on all the stuff that they should have done before starting Jocelyn's trial.  Of course in L&O universe, it all got done in a day, but still.

I did like that Maroun took charge.  She was the one that told the one girl that she would be charged with kidnapping the victim for holding her down while branding.  And then she refused to give any leniency to Jocelyn after Lodestar was killed.  I agreed with her.  Jocelyn had a chance to take a deal and refused.  The deal was then no longer on the table because they didn't need her.  Too bad.

The way those cult girls looked at Jocelyn with adoration/despair as she was being led away... yeah, they're still brainwashed.  

[EtheltoTillie]

19 minutes ago, blackwing said:

The way those cult girls looked at Jocelyn with adoration/despair as she was being led away... yeah, they're still brainwashed.  

Agree with all of your post.  This part is what happened in the real Nexium case--a few stalwarts still believe in that creep Keith Raniere.

[Clawdette]

I was thinking the case was an NXIVM "ripped from the headlines" until they actually referred to NXIVM.  I liked that acknowledgment.  

[mythoughtis]

When was the last episode in which the ‘order’ side looked remotely competent?   Both the prosecution and the judges?  Because some of the judges’ ruling the last several episodes don’t seem realistic either 

why wasn’t Sienna fully questioned  before she was put on the stand?  Every one of those questions should have  been asked in witness prep.  

 

Edited April 7, 2023 by mythoughtis

[EtheltoTillie]

29 minutes ago, Clawdette said:

I was thinking the case was an NXIVM "ripped from the headlines" until they actually referred to NXIVM.  I liked that acknowledgment.  

I refuse to spell Nexium that way LOL. 

[blackwing]

54 minutes ago, mythoughtis said:

When was the last episode in which the ‘order’ side looked remotely competent?   Both the prosecution and the judges?  Because some of the judges’ ruling the last several episodes don’t seem realistic either 

why wasn’t Sienna fully questioned  before she was put on the stand?  Every one of those questions should have  been asked in witness prep.  

This seems to be a pattern... detective work is very competent, they find the killer and arrest him/her.  Then the lawyers come in, and it seems to me that more often than not, we have to have a scene of a judge making a ruling that makes the job of Price and Maroun more difficult.  I get that the show is doing this to cause more drama, but I agree with you that it ends up making Price and Maroun look either like they are incompetent or that they are scrambling.

I get that this is the formula of L&O for 22 seasons... crime is committed, detectives investigate, witness points them towards an obvious suspect, they go and question suspect, oh it's not him, well then who could it be, dig some more, oh no it's almost half past gotta hurry up, minute 29 find and arrest the real killer.  Then Order takes over, brief discussion with suspect, legal posturing, judge makes discovery ruling, oh no how are we going to win now

It has become a comfortable and familiar formula.  Kind of like "House", which was also formulaic.  Patient shows up with some weird symptoms, oh I know what that is it's chronic mitochondrial baccanalia rhombosis, no it's not i've seen that before and that's not it, tempers flare, feelings get hurt, episode ending, oh it was actually acute theurocycline dermatitis, good job doctor for saving the day, but feelings were still hurt.

I do like the L&O formula but sometimes I wish they would mix it up more.  I'd love to see more two-part episodes.  One entire hour on the police side.  Then the next week, an entire hour of law side.  The lawyers can still show up on the police hour to give advice, and the detectives can still show up on the law hour to testify or do more investigation.  But I feel like a lot of the Order half currently suffers because of a need for the writers to create problems and make the case not so straightforward.  I understand why they do it, but for once I'd like to see a solid Order win with nothing bad happening at the end.

[wknt3]

17 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Then they sprang the cult leader on us in the last 10 mins, and even pulled an Epstein. Ugh. 

The detective segments continue to be outstanding. 

 

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

This👆 kind of writing disparity between the well-written Law/detective segments and the absurd Order/prosecution segments make me wonder if the writers are winging it without legal consultants who were employed during seasons 1 through 20?

I suspect the issues with the legal side writing are a combination of a few factors. One is that there has been a loss of institutional knowledge at Dick Wolf Productions as for years they were almost entirely focused on the cop side with the courtroom an afterthought at best. Combine that with a cut in both budgets and running time and you end up with some real boners that a more legally focused writers' room with more time could easily fix while hitting the same story beats. For instance the big reveal here could have been done with a few pieces of exposition here and there about wire transfers to an offshore account and assuming it was hiding cash from the IRS after they can't get anything from subpoenas and it turns out to be going to the man behind the curtain. Combine it with showing some witness prep and asking the question earlier and getting a different answer and you end up with the dramatic moment without the WTF reaction from viewers who are paying attention. You don't need a legal consultant for that - they mostly focus on case law and terminology - you need the extra 2 minutes of time earlier episodes had as well as having the budget for a few extra polishes and drafts and the experienced courtroom writers who can actually use those resources to do the job right.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, wknt3 said:

the budget for a few extra polishes and drafts

Yes. Whenever insufficient time is spent on a written piece, it is almost always the last portion that suffers since the earlier portions get reread and edited during the process of arriving at a first draft of the conclusion.

[Chyromaniac]

I thought this was a definite step up from the last few.  And coincidentally, we’re back to the same writer from Fear & Loathing- Pam Wechsler seems to be the only one there who can make the legal side remotely credible.

Price still feels really poorly suited to be a prosecutor, but sadly that just seems to be how the show runners want him to be.  It’s like Maroun had to be the boss this week, or nothing would have gotten done.  Price somehow thinks he can skate by with the mother’s testimony, until the defense calls for summary judgment.  The judge is about to agree (a ruling that makes sense), but then Maroun steps up and says they have a witness.  Sure it’s a bluff at that point- but Nolan is just standing there looking confused, so what’s the harm?

Then Maroun’s got to be the heavy with Sienna, and remind her that she’s just as involved as Jocelyn, after Price’s bargaining flames out.  And then there’s the ending.  I think Price just fell in love with his little speech about Jocelyn manifesting her own destiny or whatever.  But Maroun was right- Jocelyn had every opportunity to flip on Lodestar, but she waited too long and blew it.  If the courtroom half of this show is supposed to have a message, “don’t be left holding the bag” isn’t a bad one.

Otherwise, I don’t really mind the late minute reveal of Lodestar.  It’s a cult, and the members are conditioned to protect the leader at all times.  And sadly, it doesn’t seem unrealistic that the cops wouldn’t have followed the money trail to him- all the initial evidence led to Jocelyn, and when cops think the case is closed, the investigation stops, even if it’s ultimately incomplete or wrong.  Yea, having the reveal come on the stand was clearly done for shock value- but when the rest of the episode works, I won’t begrudge them a little dramatic flare.

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

And sadly, it doesn’t seem unrealistic that the cops wouldn’t have followed the money trail to him- all the initial evidence led to Jocelyn, and when cops think the case is closed, the investigation stops, even if it’s ultimately incomplete or wrong.

But when the case was falling apart, “Follow the money” was the obvious next step to anyone who’s ever watched a handful of crime shows. If they didn’t want to go there, give us at least a quick throw away line about that not happening for whatever reason — even the equivalent of ‘the dog ate my homework.’

4 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Yea, having the reveal come on the stand was clearly done for shock value

Sure. But instead of the Evil Cult Leader reveal being “shocking,” it was more like getting bitten by an annoying mosquito that had been whining in our collective viewers’ consciousness since the detectives first walked into the cult house. 
I think there was some line excusing why they didn’t suspect there was a puppet master, but it wasn’t adequate for the story, IMO.

Edited April 8, 2023 by shapeshifter

[shapeshifter]

4 hours ago, Chyromaniac said:

Price still feels really poorly suited to be a prosecutor, but sadly that just seems to be how the show runners want him to be.

It looks to me like they’re setting it up so Hugh Dancy could make a speedy exit at any moment — which could still be years from now.

Ooo! How about Price finally gets the ax and when Maroun takes his place, Price says to Jack: “Is this because I’m not a lesbian?”  —to which Jack replies “No,” followed by Price saying “Good” (wikipedia.org/wiki/Serena_Southerlyn#Departure_and_sexuality).

Edited April 8, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Raja]

1 hour ago, shapeshifter said:

Ooo! How about Price finally gets the ax and when Maroun takes his place, Price says to Jack: “Is this because I’m not a lesbian?”  —to which Jack replies “No,” followed by Price saying “Good” (wikipedia.org/wiki/Serena_Southerlyn#Departure_and_sexuality).

Edited 35 minutes ago by shapeshifter

Beat me to the punchline, I was thinking the same thing after the last two episodes where ADA Price seems more happy in a defender role

[wknt3]

10 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Yes. Whenever insufficient time is spent on a written piece, it is almost always the last portion that suffers since the earlier portions get reread and edited during the process of arriving at a first draft of the conclusion.

 

Good point. Also the unique structure of the series means that issues that might exist throughout the script are in a harsher light in the last acts which are much more about dialog and story logic than the beginning. There are also no shortcuts than can hide a lack of subtlety in the writing  or make up for the story time that has been cut to add more commercial time during the courtroom scenes or the money that used to be spent on exposition and set up either - no equivalent of the surveillance camera footage to get you from A to C without B. There just isn't a way to cover the gaps without losing the dramatic beats they want to hit - or at least not a way that writers who aren't experienced in legal drama under the constraints of network television can pull off in the current era of quick and dirty lower budget production.

[Chyromaniac]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

But when the case was falling apart, “Follow the money” was the obvious next step to anyone who’s ever watched a handful of crime shows. If they didn’t want to go there, give us at least a quick throw away line about that not happening for whatever reason — even the equivalent of ‘the dog ate my homework.

As the show reminds us every week, it’s “the police who investigate crime, and the district attorneys who prosecute the offenders.”  So, what Price and Maroun know about the case is basically whatever the cops have concluded- which was that Jocelyn was the top of the ladder.  Their job is to take those results, and prove them in court.  Tbh, for most of the episode I genuinely thought the twist was that there was no one else- that this was “what if Nexium, but just Allison Mack?”

Otherwise, the detectives didn’t “follow the money” because nothing they’d seen indicated anyone else was in charge - and again, irl too often when the police decide someone is guilty all other possibilities fade away.  Plus, none of the cultists said anything different to anyone, and the defense can’t say anything (if he even knows) without incriminating his client.  Lucky for Price, Maroun does follow the one other lead they have from the cops, which was Sienna- and she eventually gives up Lodestar.

Yes, the show decided to stage that reveal in a dramatic fashion- but again, in a story that is otherwise working for me, it didn’t bother me like it otherwise might have.  For me, this is the episode- due to the nature of the case- where Price could realistically get surprised by a witness on the stand.  Maybe the problem is that they’ve done that move so often in situations that didn’t warrant it, that it doesn’t register here- ymmv.

[watcher1006]

On 4/7/2023 at 1:25 AM, EtheltoTillie said:

Another preposterous episode.  Maybe not as bad as last week, but still terrible writing—for the legal side.

Two giant flaws. I thought they couldn’t top the ludicrous twist where they said they had Siena as a witness but then they had to suddenly bring her in to discuss cooperating. How could that have not been done before?  Then they sprang the cult leader on us in the last 10 mins, and even pulled an Epstein. Ugh. 

The detective segments continue to be outstanding. 

Yes, this episode echoed the real life Jeffrey Epstein/Ghislaine Maxwell case, even if it was about a cult rather than about serial sexual exploitation. Even down to the death in prison. Viewed in this light Maroun was right, Jocelyn did not deserve leniency based on her own status as a victim.

The two witnesses changing their stance from one of being in the thrall of their cult leader to one of cooperating with the prosecution had a contrived feel to it. As for the discovery of who the cult leader was mid-trial I think it brings to the fore a problem with the show's structure. The wheels of justice don't move that fast, particularly in a populous jurisdiction like in New York City. I would think that in real life there would be much more time for the DA's office to properly investigate what was going on with the cult.

[Cotypubby]

Me watching: “Oh interesting, a cult story with a murder where the big bad is a woman! We don’t normally get many stories like that. Usually there’s always a  man in charge cause women can only be brainwashed victims in these stories. 
…

oh. 🙄 never mind.”

[dubbel zout]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I think there was some line excusing why they didn’t suspect there was a puppet master, but it wasn’t adequate for the story, IMO.

That was my objection (heh): No one thought to investigate if there was a cult leader in the first place until it was brought up on the stand. COME ON.

5 hours ago, wknt3 said:

There just isn't a way to cover the gaps without losing the dramatic beats they want to hit

There is, though: Simplify the case. I know we need some red herrings, but make them useful red herrings, like the law clerk in this episode. They circled back to him, unlike the journalist with the confidential informant a few eps ago who is abruptly abandoned. 

2 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

Viewed in this light Maroun was right, Jocelyn did not deserve leniency based on her own status as a victim.

Ultimately, I think Jocelyn did get leniency by pleading guilty and getting a lower sentence that she might have had the case against her gone to the jury.

2 hours ago, watcher1006 said:

As for the discovery of who the cult leader was mid-trial I think it brings to the fore a problem with the show's structure. The wheels of justice don't move that fast, particularly in a populous jurisdiction like in New York City. I would think that in real life there would be much more time for the DA's office to properly investigate what was going on with the cult.

IRL, yes, the investigation could take years, but how does an hourlong TV show indicate time elapsed? The show tries, by putting dates in the interstitials, but I find those are kind of ridiculous. I think a wonky time line is one of those inherent things viewers have to accept. What I shouldn't have to accept is the sloppy plotting.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Nice old school detective work in this one but I was still wondering why this story line was on the mothership instead of SVU. Or maybe it could've been a crossover episode.

Surprising to me that they mentioned the NXIVM cult by name. I guess maybe that happened too long ago for this episode to be considered "ripped from the headlines." But what's the likelihood something like that would happen twice in New York? Wouldn't the victims have had more of a clue about what was going on with Lodestar?

Quote

I refuse to spell Nexium that way LOL. 

Heh, Nexium is an acid reflux medication and it doesn't appear they're changing their name because of the similarity to the cult. Unlike the former diet candy "Ayds" which in the mid-80s was pretty much put out of business because of AIDS (one of the symptoms of which was drastic weight loss).

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

But what's the likelihood something like that would happen twice in New York?

There was the dad who ran a cult out of his daughter's dorm room at Sarah Lawrence, which is in Bronxville, NY, so the likelihood is pretty good, I'd say. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

There was the dad who ran a cult out of his daughter's dorm room at Sarah Lawrence, which is in Bronxville, NY, so the likelihood is pretty good, I'd say. 

OMG, is there something in the water in New York? That's insane!

[Samsnee]

I thought the twist was going to be the accused and Maroun were long lost twins 

[Mellowyellow]

On 4/7/2023 at 12:08 PM, MerBearHou said:

The actress who played Jocelyn was laughably bad.  She went to the acting school of “make evil eyes and look like you smelled something bad over and over and over” to convey contempt.  

Omg I thought it was just me! She was absolutely dreadful!!!! The extras are usually so good on law and order. It was so hard to take any scene with her seriously because she looked like she was in a really bad school play.

Enjoyed the episode overall though!