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S03.E05: Part Five - Imposters


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It's very convenient that Picard's loyal old crew just happen to be on the nearest ship in range.  I wasn't expecting to see Ro, and Starfleet is pretty forgiving if they were willing to overlook that whole defection to the Maquis thing. 

Janeway is name dropped again - I wonder if we'll see her before this is all said and done to bail out our heroes, especially because we know this show isn't going to end with Picard, Riker, and Seven tossed in a penal colony for their actions. 

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1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

especially because we know this show isn't going to end with Picard, Riker, and Seven tossed in a penal colony for their actions. 

That would be the famous Seinfeld Maneuver

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Well show, thanks for casting yet another 12 Monkeys actor - now I can finally pinpoint what Jack's hallucinations remind me of: the Red Forest. Come to think of it Vadic's cadence was/is pretty close to Olivia's.

I knew that another TNG character would show up but did not expect Ro Laren - well played show. A bit upset that we had to say goodbye so quickly but at least she got a badass exit.

 

Edited by MissLucas
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Meh on the Ro Laren appearance. Why do i feel that this was suppose to be the Robert Beltran appearance and because he didn't want to do it, they settled on Ro. 
So mobile emitters are common now.
Fuck you show for making me think that Worf died. So Ro was their handler. Well guess now they have no one.
So is the red door and Jack's condition are effectively the mystery box? Fuck you for adding the mystery box aspect.
 

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9 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Meh on the Ro Laren appearance. Why do i feel that this was suppose to be the Robert Beltran appearance and because he didn't want to do it, they settled on Ro. 
So mobile emitters are common now.
Fuck you show for making me think that Worf died. So Ro was their handler. Well guess now they have no one.
So is the red door and Jack's condition are effectively the mystery box? Fuck you for adding the mystery box aspect.
 

Since Chakotay has no known connection to Picard, I tend to doubt that having him in the role Ro was would have made much sense.

People's mileage will vary, but I don't think having Ro was in any way "settling." It was a fine performance by Michelle Forbes. I was moved. 

I will overlook the obvious flaws of the episode -- that there was no reason to be so sloppy in setting up the Titan by giving Ro ample time to a) realize she was screwed b) warn the Titan to run c) maneuver her shuttle to compromise the Intrepid's ability to pursue. and that the changelings could and should have made capturing Jack Crusher more of a priority.

It seems like they are rewriting the rules of Changelings to limit them in what they can do. 

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6 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Since Chakotay has no known connection to Picard, I tend to doubt that having him in the role Ro was would have made much sense.

It seems like they are rewriting the rules of Changelings to limit them in what they can do. 

Seven didn't have a connection to Picard in season 1 yet here we are. Neither does Janeway, yet she's been mentioned a few times. I hope that Kate does make an appearance just because she's freaking awesome.

Agreed 100% about the rules of Changelings. At this point i honestly believe that Lore has been tinkering with them like he was with those Borgs in Descent.  How Moriarty plays into all this is anyone's guess.  

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11 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Seven didn't have a connection to Picard in season 1 yet here we are. Neither does Janeway, yet she's been mentioned a few times. I hope that Kate does make an appearance just because she's freaking awesome.

Agreed 100% about the rules of Changelings. At this point i honestly believe that Lore has been tinkering with them like he was with those Borgs in Descent.  How Moriarty plays into all this is anyone's guess.  

We at least know Picard knows Janeway. And presumably, we are going to need some high-ranking admirals to a) have been replaced by Changelings or b) to confirm "the day is saved" at the end of the season, so it might as well be Janeway in one of those roles.

They could bring back whoever they want for the series, but Chakotay doesn't really make sense with this plot as is, and I tend to think that there's a ton of people jonesing to have him come back as a one-of cameo. By contrast, I'm sure that people appreciated having Seven back and it made sense from the subplot about ex-Borg to have the second most famous ex-Borg of them all if they could swing it.

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I’ve been waiting for that scene between Picard and Ro for 29 years.  I’m a little bummed that they killed her off, but I think she got a satisfactory ending, all things being equal.  And I loved using her earring as the way of passing the information to him.  Both a good symbol, and practical.  I think it looked more like Kira’s than the one Ro wore, but I’ll let that slide.

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

They could bring back whoever they want for the series, but Chakotay doesn't really make sense with this plot as is, and I tend to think that there's a ton of people jonesing to have him come back as a one-of cameo

We also already have an inkling of what’s going on with Chakotay because of Prodigy.  And I believe that show currently has dominion (so to speak) over both Janeway and he, so I doubt using him would be possible, even if that had made sense from a story perspective.

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"We are scanning all the crew, how could a changeling possibly get on board?!" Well maybe because you don't scan all the freight and personal belongings? My theory from last week seems to be correct. These writers don't know that changelings can turn into anything.

Also correct me if I'm wrong here, but couldn't changelings always replicate internal organs? That is why the scanners were useless and the blood test was needed. Because only by seperating the changeling matter from the main body would it return into its liquid form and only that way you could tell if it was a changeling or not. (For the record, the "blood test" Ro did wouldn't have been conclusive for old style Changelings either, since the blood stayed connected to her body. A Changeling could have easily faked that. For it to be conclusive, she would have had to let some drop on the table.)

That they stay in their form after death is certainly new. Calling it Evolution though... a very classic Star Trek trope of not understanding of what evoltuion is and how it works.

The writers certainly have the characters down, something you couldn't say about Star Trek in the last 18 years. But so did the writers of TNG season 1 and 2 and those are generally considered to be the bad seasons. Have our standards sunken that much in the last 30 years, that just getting the characters right is cause for celebration?

At least now the actual story seems to be getting some momentum. Guess we'll see if this gets better.

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1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Fuck you show for making me think that Worf died.

I was pretty sure it was his meditation bullshit. They made sure to remind us about it earlier this episode.

Instead of Raffi going "I hope I didn't go too deep" I was expecting them to go with the "Klingons have redundant organs"-thing. Kinda disappointed that they didn't.

Very convenient though that the bad guy felt for a pulse instead of using a tricorder or similar device, right?

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

So mobile emitters are common now.

You'd think the Federation would have had something to say against altering the timeline this drastically, but apparently not.

56 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It seems like they are rewriting the rules of Changelings to limit them in what they can do. 

Which is annoying. At this point why make them changelings at all? It seems like they are doing it purely for the memberberries, to harvest that sweet sweet nostalgia bump.

They could have just as well used the critters from Conspiracy. Just said it took them 30 years to get to federation space. That is a plot thread that has been kept dangeling since season 1 of TNG, so why not pick it up? Because you are afraid your story can't stand on its own and so you are dependant on the nostalgia?

Edited by PurpleTentacle
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1 hour ago, greekmom said:

Meh on the Ro Laren appearance. Why do i feel that this was suppose to be the Robert Beltran appearance and because he didn't want to do it, they settled on Ro. 

Beltran was offered a role as Seven's alternate husband in season 2.  As mentioned above, it makes no sense to have him here.  Seven's around despite her lack of connection to TNG because she was the breakout character of Voyager, and Janeway was the lead of the show.  Chakotay was one of the least memorable characters (in my opinion, behind at least Seven, Janeway, the Doctor, Torres, and Tuvok). 

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This is fine, great in some places, but mostly just fine. Nothing special and certainly not the great white hope of Star Trek that the twitter peeps had been hyping up before it premiered. 

The Ro scenes were really great though. I just don't care about Jack.

Maybe it'll change in the last five episodes, but this show seems really disinterested in Geordi and Deanna and I can't help but find that to be a bummer in relation to the whole thing. I wasn't expecting them to all be together right away, but the way they're handling all this just isn't my favorite. I saw a reviewer say somewhere that you could tell the show really only had interest in Riker, Crusher, and Worf returning and basically had to throw together something for the others and yeah, you can definitely tell.

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Am I the only one when Picard kept yelling "Ro! Ro!" to remember the fact that Laren is her first name, not Ro? I mean I suppose Jean Luc intended to call out to her by her last name. But, if it was Will Riker in that shuttle, I'd think he'd yell out, "Will! Will!" and not "Riker! Riker!" 

I'm not enamored with the running theme of this show revisiting characters from Jean Luc Picard's past only to kill them off. Q. Hugh. Now Ro Laren. This show certainly is in service to Patrick Stewart's vanity and his grappling with his own mortality. I prefer to leave Q as immortal and Ro Laren as the strong-willed renegade with a purpose who left us all in TNG's penultimate episode. Her death was senseless. The plot of this season is too light to have been served by it. And it remains to be seen if any information she transported was actually vital (and thus, did serve the "plot"), or if the information dump was just for show in this episode ("Look, everyone, her death served a purpose because we have all these graphics of information!" ... then, nothing that that they didn't already know or suspect). 

Wake me up when Troi and Geordi arrive, and then again when more than three of the magnificent seven that made up the core of TNG show up in the same place and actually interact face-to-face. 

Edited by Francie
typo
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3 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Chakotay was one of the least memorable characters

Robert Beltran agreed and I think the rest of the cast picked up on it:

 

6 minutes ago, Francie said:

I prefer to leave Q as immortal

Nothing to do with Q in the last season made sense, so my headcanon is that that was just one of his games and he's still out there, having to watch over his son for all eternity.

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51 minutes ago, PurpleTentacle said:

Also correct me if I'm wrong here, but couldn't changelings always replicate internal organs?

When the Great Link punished Odo by turning him into a solid, Bashir was seemingly shocked that he had lungs.

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2 minutes ago, starri said:

When the Great Link punished Odo by turning him into a solid, Bashir was seemingly shocked that he had lungs.

Yeah because Odo sucked at shapeshifting. He couldn't even get the outsides right.

But that the changelings could make Odo lungs shows that they can, right? They didn't use any machinery. They just used their powers to lock Odo into that state.

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1 hour ago, KittenPokerCheater said:

Oh good lord, jack is a brainwashed changeling.  So the Picard that slept with Beverly was a changeling too?  Gah!

Egads, now that gives me flashbacks to the whole mess with Voq/Ash Tyler on Disco *runs screaming from the room*

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1 hour ago, Francie said:

Am I the only one when Picard kept yelling "Ro! Ro!" to remember the fact that Laren is her first name, not Ro? I mean I suppose Jean Luc intended to call out to her by her last name. But, if it was Will Riker in that shuttle, I'd think he'd yell out, "Will! Will!" and not "Riker! Riker!" 

Her name is Ro Laren. As a Bajoran, the custom is that only people who are on a very close basis with someone would use her last name. So Picard and anyone else would normally call her Ro and never Laren (unless they were clueless or presuming intimacy).

Now, I think it would have been a potential thing to indicate that they had reconciled for Picard to call her "Laren" at some point. But he never did onscreen in TNG (as opposed to the many, many times he called non-Bajoran crewmembers by their first names) so it makes sense that he wouldn't now. They hadn't spoken for 30 years and the last time they did, Ro betrayed Picard. So the notion of them being close enough for him to "Laren" her seems off. But if they went that route, they could have pulled it off.

I wish they had some more interplay between Ro and Riker, because they too had an interesting relationship. They were very antagonistic toward each other at first, and then they ended up sleeping together, and Riker was partners with Ro on that last mission of hers.

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1 hour ago, paigow said:

Bev and Jack 2.0 are both Imposters. All this psychic linking is impossible with regular humans.

It's sci-fi...very few things can be considered "impossible."

Among Trek precedent that suggests the possibility of a regular human having a psychic link with aliens, there are mind melds between Vulcans and humans, Troi being able to telepathically speak to Riker in Encounter at Farpoint, devices that can switch consciousness from TOS, the ESPers from TOS...and of course, the Borg can create neural links. 

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53 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

What happened to Ro's Bajoran nose?  Did Starfleet make her have it "fixed" after she did her penance to make her feel less connected to Bajor? WTH?

The makeup crew did not have time for her because Worf, bunch of Vulcans and those quasi Bajoran / Cardassian bridge crew...

ETA: Applying eyeliner on Raffi is not a one person job...

Edited by paigow
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59 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

What happened to Ro's Bajoran nose?

The Bajoran makeup got toned down over the course of DS9, and I think that had already started when "Preemptive Strike" was filmed, because if you look at stills from that episode, she's missing the ridges on the eyebrows that were so prominent on the first version.  So it is actually consistent with that.

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Ro Laren! I was afraid that she was a Changeling at first. This confirms that the Changelings have infiltrated Starfleet.  So they are going to get revenge and destroy Section 31 (Plus the Federation) for the end of the Dominion War! 

I don't think Jack is a changeling. 

Spoiler

I believe he is possessed by the Pah Wraith or the Bajoran Prophets.  More DS9 connections!!!

 

So how skeleton is the Titan crew now?  And did they finally rid her of the Changelings aboard? Poor Shaw. He was so gleeful about getting Picard, Riker, and Seven sent to the pokey. Now he is on the run, no Jay-Z/Beyonce! Heh.

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I will overlook the obvious flaws of the episode -- that there was no reason to be so sloppy in setting up the Titan by giving Ro ample time to a) realize she was screwed b) warn the Titan to run c) maneuver her shuttle to compromise the Intrepid's ability to pursue. and that the changelings could and should have made capturing Jack Crusher more of a priority.

It seems like they are rewriting the rules of Changelings to limit them in what they can do. 

 

Well, the rules would have to be rewritten in order to infiltrate any organization at high levels. I'm pretty sure that you would have to either evolve or be tinkered with in order to get your lick back at folks who imprisoned you... I wonder when we will see the Female Changeling? Also, will we see Emperor Georgiou, perhaps using Picard's finale as a backdoor pilot to the Section 31 show?

 

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Loved seeing Ro again.  Hated seeing her gone so soon.

If the changelings are so embedded in Starfleet, why was Ro (a human) sent to pick up Jack?  They should have been able to send a ship with a changeling in command and sent all changelings onto the Titan.

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7 hours ago, greekmom said:

Seven didn't have a connection to Picard in season 1 yet here we are. Neither does Janeway, yet she's been mentioned a few times. I hope that Kate does make an appearance just because she's freaking awesome.

Having Mulgrew and Ryan appear on screen together is probably a fan wish, and both are currently working for the franchise, but... I'm skeptical it will actually happen.  The poop on them is supposedly that Mulgrew has done a kind of mid-years Shatneresque "Whoops, I'm sorry I was a jerk" thing somewhere in the background, but it's unclear if this was ever to Ryan's face, or if it was accepted.  In fact, unlike Shatner vs. half his coworkers, the conflict between Mulgrew and Ryan never became that public in the first place.  I dunno.  I just think it would be awkward, even if they have made up.

Really, Sisko is the surprise returnee who'd make the most story-sense, except Avery Brooks being missing for the past 17 or 18 years or so.  Supposedly he spent some time as a jazz musician, then as a college professor at Rutgers.  But even that was years ago.  I seem to recall being told he was in Shatner's documentary about a dozen years ago, but admit I've never seen it.

 

 

 

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Ro!  I was curious if she was ever going to show up on this series due to her connection with Picard and I'm glad it finally happened!  It's been a while, so I forgot that last we saw them was on a major sour note due to her throwing in with the Maquis (for my money, one of the most squandered ideas in Trek.  So much potential there but I never felt like any of the series delivered on it: especially Voyager), and absence just making Picard's anger even stronger.  Of course, it also took me a bit to accept that this was thirty years ago and that Michelle Forbes is now two years shy of 60, because wow, I thought she was at least in her late forties still.  Time sure does fly!  Bummed she was an one and done appearance (for good, apparently), but at least she went out helping Picard and the gang, and the two for them did have some form of a reconciliation.

So, it seems like these are a special kind of Changelings who have become so good at it that they can even fool DNA tests and whatnot.  And a whole bunch of them have been embedded into Starfleet.   Yeah, that's going to suck going forward for everyone.  I guess you need to start prepping trivia to ask everyone you meet something only they can know!

Really doubted they were going to kill off Worf like that, but his and Raffi's scenes continue to be a highlight.  Especially loved that he was still actually stabbed and while he was still his normal badass self, he was still like "Bleeding out right now, so let us get through this interrogation, please!" about it.  Also, it looks like Terry Matalas really is trying to go through the entire 12 Monkeys cast, with Kirk Acevedo showing up as a Vulcan gangster (yeah, that was not a mis-type!)  I'm telling y'all, either Amanda Schull or Emily Hampshire are going to show up at some point!

Still not sure what to make of Jack.  Is he a Changeling and doesn't know it?  And he now has abilities that can make him go John Wick on a bunch of would be kidnappers?  Either way, the Changelings clearly want him for some reason.

Hopefully Picard and Riker discovering Worf was Ro's contact means they'll reunite soon (which, I imagine also needs to happen to get Seven and Raffi to reunite.)  But I am wondering when are they going to get Geordi and Troi onboard.  I agree that right now it seems like Riker, Beverly, and Worf were the ones prioritized to return.

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I also liked that Raffi is an honorary Klingon now. "Raffaela, of the House of Musiker" has a nice ring to it! 

Time for Geordi and Deanna to get in on the hijinks and yet another Soong to pop up before we get to Lore... 

Being on the run is going to be problematic as hell; how are you going to hide a starship? Where can our intrepid heroes go to hide while sorting out this changeling situation? Just call me impatient to get to the next episode...

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56 minutes ago, SnarkShark said:

Having Mulgrew and Ryan appear on screen together is probably a fan wish, and both are currently working for the franchise, but... I'm skeptical it will actually happen.  The poop on them is supposedly that Mulgrew has done a kind of mid-years Shatneresque "Whoops, I'm sorry I was a jerk" thing somewhere in the background, but it's unclear if this was ever to Ryan's face, or if it was accepted.  In fact, unlike Shatner vs. half his coworkers, the conflict between Mulgrew and Ryan never became that public in the first place.  I dunno.  I just think it would be awkward, even if they have made up.

 

Well take a look at this Zoom call interview from the early pandemic where they appear together in the second half:

I’d say that Mulgrew does explain pretty well why and how she messed up some things on set and she and Ryan who appears later, possibly to avoid dealing with all that stuff (and then explains how her awful costuming and the pressure she was under to carry on actually made her physically ill) are definitely able to be civil and supportive of each other.

Plus, they’re excellent, professional actors. If they could behave as friends on the show while all that was going on, they could certainly do it now even better.

So with the call-outs to Janeway so far, I don’t see Ryan actually saying she’d never appear in a scene with Mulgrew or something like that. And Mulgrew seems to be quite careful around her in that interview.  Especially as, if she survives the season, Seven has to be very likely to appear in more live action shows in this universe, so if Mulgrew wanted to come back, working well with Ryan in future could be a good way to get there.

Edited by Lebanna
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Well, Mulgrew has a good gig over at Prodigy. I've seen interviews with her talking about the issue and she seems genuine when admitting that she screwed up. That said if Seven gets her spin-off I'd like to see -that- show finally moving away from nostalgia. He, I can dream - right?

 

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1 hour ago, KeithJ said:

If the changelings are so embedded in Starfleet, why was Ro (a human) sent to pick up Jack?  They should have been able to send a ship with a changeling in command and sent all changelings onto the Titan.

The Changelings are apparently in effective control if not actual command of the Intrepid, judging by the fact that it was able to field four redshirt Changelings plus the two who took the shuttle back with Ro and set her up the bomb. Whether it was just six total Changelings who were on board that ship, or 50, or nearly the entire ship's complement, who can say?

But keep in mind that throughout DS9, there were no times IIRC when there was more than one non-Odo Changeling who were out and about in the Alpha Quadrant operating in the same location. Largely, the female Founder coordinated the war effort solo. There might have been like 5 other individual Changelings throughout the whole series. So the notion that there were at least six Changelings on board the Intrepid is kind of a big deal.

There is no getting around that the Changelings did a sucky job trying to retrieve Jack and framing the Titan, and Seven did a sucky job of trying to hide Jack.

Forcing him into a Starfleet uniform isn't really "hiding" Jack, given the futuristic technology that is available to the Intrepid. Putting Jack into a transporter buffer in one of the shuttles, or setting up holographic camoflauge and dampening his biosigns might be a tad more effective.

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11 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

There is no getting around that the Changelings did a sucky job trying to retrieve Jack and framing the Titan, and Seven did a sucky job of trying to hide Jack.

Forcing him into a Starfleet uniform isn't really "hiding" Jack, given the futuristic technology that is available to the Intrepid. Putting Jack into a transporter buffer in one of the shuttles, or setting up holographic camoflauge and dampening his biosigns might be a tad more effective.

 

For all of their new abilities, these changelings certainly wasn't bright enough to simply scan for Jack. I wonder if Jack having the ability to suss out changelings in his fugue state might have something to do with how gingerly they are being in trying to capture him alive. They are killing folks left and right, but tiptoeing around Jack himself.  What about the Titan crewmembers on the Intrepid? This has to be a nightmare for them!

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47 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Time for Geordi and Deanna to get in on the hijinks and yet another Soong to pop up before we get to Lore... 

A Betazoid would be very handy - unless this has changed as well, Changelings can't be read by them.  So Troi's vague feeling (or lack thereof) will be a meaningful contribution this time!

Geordi's the most likely to have some connections to the Daystrom Institute, plus he might be irked about his daughter being a fugitive.  Maybe Leah Brahms works there and can be killed at the end of the episode.

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47 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

Maybe Leah Brahms works there and can be killed at the end of the episode.

But not before Geordi tries to hook up with her again.... 

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Being on the run is going to be problematic as hell; how are you going to hide a starship? 

Stellar Cartography will point towards the nearest nebula that is not giving birth....

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I might have to go back, but didn’t Beverly say that the La Forge Changeling had no DNA?  It seems that’s the best way to scan for them then. Unless I misheard. 
 

Also, has Beverly sat down since she was hauled up to the bridge in Episode 2? Find that poor woman seat already. 

Edited by ajsnaves
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13 minutes ago, marinw said:

Ro being introduced just to die sucked. Ugh.

I'd be willing to put good money that Michelle Forbes only agreed to appear if Ro was killed off.  Do I wish it was different?  Yes.  Am I grateful that she got closure on her story and went out like a badass?  Also yes.

I was also really happy that she got equal billing with the other TNG actors.

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2 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

I also liked that Raffi is an honorary Klingon now. "Raffaela, of the House of Musiker" has a nice ring to it! 

Time for Geordi and Deanna to get in on the hijinks and yet another Soong to pop up before we get to Lore... 

Being on the run is going to be problematic as hell; how are you going to hide a starship? Where can our intrepid heroes go to hide while sorting out this changeling situation? Just call me impatient to get to the next episode...

Ghey always hide in a nebula. Space is full of shelering anomalies. You know. 

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3 hours ago, KeithJ said:

If the changelings are so embedded in Starfleet, why was Ro (a human) sent to pick up Jack?

But she isn't strictly human, is she?  She's of a humanoid species from Bajor.

I tried watching Voyager, but I just couldn't get into it. Besides, Janeway's hair seemed way too fussy for a starship captain.

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