All Episodes Discussion

[mythoughtis]

Sometimes, Dateline's way of presenting stuff is confusing.  First we get they have a wonderful marriage and she was pregnant with a second child, and they were moving to Minnesota so she could be a real Mom, and not deploy anymore. 

 

Then we get the real story.  Where was this woman's brain about her personal life, why didn't she use the same brain she used to be a commander?  Why stay married to a guy that was cheating while you were gone, is still cheating, got an 18 year old pregnant, and is partying with a bunch of teenagers?  Why get pregnant a second time when you knew all that was going on before you even got home from deployment?    She would have given her soldiers very different advice if they had come to her with similar situations in their personal lives, or her friends in thiers. 

 

I felt so sorry for Tristan,  Even 15 years later, he seems abandoned, as if he felt unloved by his aunt. 

There was no explanation of what happened to Aprils' pregnancy, and subsequent child. 

 

Like others, I fail to understand six people who sat there and openly discussed KILLING someone, a pregnant Army Captain... because some guy who basically bought them beer asked them too. 

[A.Ham]

Anyone else see this? http://www.nbc.com/dateline/video/smoke-and-mirrors/3001634?onid=209511#vc209511=1

 

Such a shame, once again. I am glad the family was very active in trying to find her. I do wonder how the jerk ex-boyfriend got her out of the house, I don't think she had been ready to leave for the day, since she had left her breakfast out or something. And he only killed her because she was warning his new conquest about him? SMH.

[pamplemousse]

But the poor boy was just trying to continue his education and better himself! Think about if he was your son!

 

This innocent put-upon special snowflake just can't seem to catch a break.

[ari333]

Did you guys see this? What a scumbag.

[walnutqueen]

Did you guys see this? What a scumbag.

 

Several times already.  I am so sick of reruns.  :-(

[ButterQueen]

It's March Madness, so we have re-runs.

Thank God for the daughters!

[ari333]

Sorry guys. I hadn't seen it or if I did I didnt' remember. It was new to me.

[walnutqueen]

It's March Madness, so we have re-runs.

Thank God for the daughters!

 

Fuck March Madness.  I don't do sports (except for the occasional Olympic events - I'm obsessed with Olympic curling & hockey!).   ;-)

Edited March 26, 2016 by walnutqueen

[callmebetty]

Yeah I can't believe there was an actual Dateline that was a rerun that I HADN'T seen before. How heartbreaking for the daughters. And to be estranged from the brother and he commits suicide.

That father was just an asshole.

[ari333]

Im glad the daughters were persistent.

 

A great home, super children, a very lovely wife... the fucker just couldn't be happy.... with it all.

[walnutqueen]

What IS it about all these people who don't accept that if you marry or have kids with someone, you WILL pay - one way or another?  Even live-in relationships have financial (and other) consequences; so deal with it or stay single forever.  It certainly isn't as hard as trying to pull off the perfect murder.

[ButterQueen]

Fuck March Madness.  I don't do sports (except for the occasional Olympic events - I'm obsessed with Olympic curling & hockey!).   ;-)

I would agree, but my DH's alma mater, UVA, is on fire this year. : )). And I love football season. : p

What IS it about all these people who don't accept that if you marry or have kids with someone, you WILL pay - one way or another?  Even live-in relationships have financial (and other) consequences; so deal with it or stay single forever.  It certainly isn't as hard as trying to pull off the perfect murder.

His wife was beautiful too. So sad. : ((

[walnutqueen]

I would agree, but my DH's alma mater, UVA, is on fire this year. : )). And I love football season. : p

His wife was beautiful too. So sad. : ((

 

I have NO IDEA what this UVA is you are referring to, but since I like you, I'll believe what you're saying!  ;-)

 

My cat(s) watch whatever I  want.  All day, every day, I am in control of the remote (unless Babalu butt changes channels on me, the little fucker).

[ButterQueen]

I have NO IDEA what this UVA is you are referring to, but since I like you, I'll believe what you're saying!  ;-)

 

My cat(s) watch whatever I  want.  All day, every day, I am in control of the remote (unless Babalu butt changes channels on me, the little fucker).

UVA -- University of Virginia

[walnutqueen]

UVA -- University of Virginia

 

Alrighty then - I thought it sounded like something I'd need sunscreen for.  :-)

[ElleBee]

The thing I find refreshing about this case is that the daughters not only admitted that their father was capable of murdering their mother, but honored their mother's memory by doing what it took to put their dad in jail. I get so tired of the familial blinders where grown children steadfastly insist that their parent could never have done it, despite mountains of evidence to the contrary. I get that it's very hard to accept, and you just wish that it didn't have to be true, but it's disrespectful to the memory of the murdered parent to refuse to accept the truth. You owe it to your dead parent, who can no longer speak for themselves, to stand up for the value of their life that was taken.

[cooksdelight]

I would agree, but my DH's alma mater, UVA, is on fire this year. : )). And I love football season. : p

UNC girl here, this is going to be a great final four.

That guy was the epitome of a jerk/asshole/pick your bad name for him. And Gypsy? He had a beauty queen wife and wanted Gypsy? He strikes me as one of those guys who would never be happy with anything, no matter what he had. The fraud thing with the identity theft of his daughter's name and SS# was below scumbag status.

[ButterQueen]

UNC girl here, this is going to be a great final four.

That guy was the epitome of a jerk/asshole/pick your bad name for him. And Gypsy? He had a beauty queen wife and wanted Gypsy? He strikes me as one of those guys who would never be happy with anything, no matter what he had. The fraud thing with the identity theft of his daughter's name and SS# was below scumbag status.

......and cheating/faking getting into medical school.

[Ohmo]

I figured out this was a re-run (although it took me awhile), but I watched it anyway.  Sometimes, they stick updates on the end of episodes, but this case didn't have one since the trial was in 2013.

[Ohmo]

Yeah, I wondered how he threatened her enough to get her to leave.  He strangled her, so he didn't shoot or stab her.  She didn't seem to be held at knife point or gun point in the video, and she was concerned about him enough to consider a restraining order.  So what made her leave with him?

[Fable]

I have no problem saying this guy was a jackass, but I have a hard time believing he was convicted.  The evidence seemed pretty minuscule to me, unless a lot was left out of the episode.

[BusyOctober]

I saw this story before- not this particular episode, but I had heard about this lawyer/doctor/cheater/murderer SOB before. I wish they had filled in more details about that poor girl, Giselle! Did she ever come back to the US? Did she ever get her stolen identity fixed? I hope her sisters fought to get her home. I am also curious about the 3rd bio-daughter's take on her father. The 2 oldest daughters knew their father killed their mother. Their poor brother didn't and ended up committing suicide. What about the 3rd daughter from the original 4 kids? And who is caring for the adopted younger girls?

I think the asshole husband just cheated for the thrill of it. I don't think the attractiveness of his wife (or lack of in the case of Gypsy) made any difference. He was an egomaniac and sociopath who liked to see what he could get away with. That Gypsy woman was aptly named. What a grifter. Even after years of watching these investigative shows, I'm still amazed at how many people in marriages they don't want to be in opt for MURDER as a way out of it.

[Stampiron]

Dateline actually understated what a psychopath this guy is. Excerpts from Martin MacNeill timeline:

 

1975: Martin placed on disability leave [from the military] when he is deemed a “latent schizophrenic"; family and judge later question diagnosis but he received V.A. and Social Security benefits for years, even after he became a doctor and lawyer

1977: Martin arrested in California for forging checks; he tells friends he saw check forgers on “60 Minutes” and thought he could do it better and with fewer risks

1990: Martin pleaded no contest to alleged Medicaid fraud in Sandy [utah] and is banned from Medicaid billing for 12 years

1998: Martin agrees to resign from BYU Health Center; his work there was punctuated by accusations of rape, complaints of unprofessional conduct and misdiagnosis

1999: He returns to BYU Health Center for three months and more complaints are made against him

August 2000: Police called to house after Martin threatens to kill wife and himself with knife after she caught him looking at pornography

2005: Martin has affair with Anna Osborne Walthall, who told psychiatrist she was dating a “serial killer” because she said Martin told her that he’d killed his brother in a bathtub [note: his brother did in fact die in a bathtub] and tried to kill his mother when he was young; she said he also offered to kill her husband and described writing an anonymous article about “mercy killing” in which a patient was euthanized with pain killers but was never held accountable, court documents state

April 2007: Michelle MacNeill is found dead in her bathtub

June 2007: Police are called as Martin kicks out daughters Rachel and Alexis from home after they said they asked why Willis didn’t cook, clean or take care of the children

Sometime in 2007: Martin changes his will to give just $1 to each of his children with everything else to go to Willis under her false identity, according to investigators

July 2007: Daughter Giselle MacNeill returns to Ukraine to visit biological sister for summer; family and investigators believe Martin planned for trip to be permanent and a ploy to steal her identity [@BusyOctober: she was later brought home by an aunt]

Sept. 2, 2007: Police report filed alleging Martin twice fondled sleeping daughter [Alexis, the daughter featured on Dateline] and said, "I thought you were your mother"; criminal charge filed, dismissed, then later refiled

November 2007: Willis brings domestic violence complaint against Martin but later recants and it is dismissed; notary says Martin dominated conversation during recanting and investigators believe he prepared document that led to the dismissal because he spelled Willis' name wrong

Summer 2008: Daughter struggling with addiction asks for help from Martin but says he offered mutual suicide as solution

November 2013: MacNeill is convicted of murdering his wife and is sentenced to 15 years to life

July 2014: MacNeill is convicted of molesting his adult daughter and is sentenced to 1-15 years

 

I am also curious about the 3rd bio-daughter's take on her father. The 2 oldest daughters knew their father killed their mother. Their poor brother didn't and ended up committing suicide. What about the 3rd daughter from the original 4 kids? And who is caring for the adopted younger girls?

 

One thing I read is that the MacNeill's youngest daughter, Ada - the one who was with Martin when Michelle was "found" - is actually their daughter Vanessa's child. Maybe she's also the daughter with addiction issues mentioned above? 

 

Martin gave up parental rights in 2008 and Alexis has custody of 3 of the 4 adopted children, including Ada. I don't know who has the fourth.

[ari333]

I don't know if this is most memorable, but it was a repeat (but new to me) and kind of creepy. Not sure it needs its own thread, so here goes.

There was a weird filmmaker and a missing dude, John Altinger, who supposedly met a chick online, went to meet her in person,  then disappeared/ Weird... The emails were cryptic. The witnesses were interesting in that they felt something was off,

 

Mark Twitchell's grin gave me chills

Edited March 27, 2016 by ari333

[walnutqueen]

I don't know if this is most memorable, but it was a repeat (but new to me) and kind of creepy. Not sure it needs its own thread, so here goes.

There was a weird filmmaker and a missing dude, John Altinger, who supposedly met a chick online, went to meet her in person,  then disappeared/ Weird... The emails were cryptic. The witnesses were interesting in that they felt something was off,

 

Mark Twitchell's grin gave me chills

 

Yes, I remember it well.  Twitchell, the "filmmaker" who was obsessed with Dexter.  Killed the guy in his garage - after another guy barely escaped.  Creeeeepy!

[ari333]

Yes, I remember it well.  Twitchell, the "filmmaker" who was obsessed with Dexter.  Killed the guy in his garage - after another guy barely escaped.  Creeeeepy!

That Twitchell guy's grin really gave me the willies

And that other guy was really lucky to be alive.

[Eln5]

That Twitchell guy's grin really gave me the williesAnd that other guy was really lucky to be alive.

Speaking of that other guy, I just couldn't understand why he didn't go right to the police to report that someone tried to kill him, and almost succeeded. I guess it is hard to judge someone in that circumstance, having never been in that situation, but I would have thought the police would have been his first stop. He had no way of knowing if the guy would come after him to finish the job. It was brave of him to come forward and testify, I think he really sealed their case with his testimony.

[OpieTaylor]

Yeah, I wondered how he threatened her enough to get her to leave.  He strangled her, so he didn't shoot or stab her.  She didn't seem to be held at knife point or gun point in the video, and she was concerned about him enough to consider a restraining order.  So what made her leave with him?

Yes! I watched it today and I yelled out, "Why did she leave with him???" 

[RedheadZombie]

OK, now I'm questioning the adult daughters. I know their religion encourages them to pretend everything's great, but the two featured daughters portrayed their lives as idyllic, and their dad was pretty damned perfect until he killed their mother. According to Dateline's timeline, it would have been difficult for them not to know that their father was a violent, lying, cheating, daughter-molesting, government defrauding, unethical doctor and attorney. He inspired the daughter to become a doctor! And one of their daughters made it clear that her mother told her everything. They could not have had their heads deeper in the sand. And why did this man even want to adopt four more children? Maybe due to his religious beliefs?

And as abhorrent as killing his wife was, I found the calculated manner of stealing his young daughter's identity and abandoning her in a foreign country more disturbing.

[Ohmo]

My gut believes Jane's version of events.  The money angle is certainly plausible.  People rip each other off in families all the time.  However, in this case, I didn't buy that as Jane's motive.  For better or worse, I just kept thinking of steroids.  It was never established that Dave took them, but they have always been rampant at the Olympics, particularly in track-and-field and swimming.  I understand that's me projecting, but it didn't take me much to go from Olympic star to the possibility of doping.  (I'm such a cynic.)  Dave competed in the 1984 Games and tried to make the 1988 team.  If steroids were part of his training, they would cause explosive abusive behavior over time.

 

It's also possible that Jane could have done a "meek and mild" con job, but I didn't get that sense of the whole situation.

 

Jane's attorney also said that Jane thought of Dave as Superman, which supports my perception of the existence of steroids.  If he were taking them, he would have been strong.

 

I can logically see why Jane wanted an absolute not guilty verdict, but for practical purposes, I think she should have taken the deal.

[walnutqueen]

The version of events she tried to sell in court about a life & death struggle did not explain the red flashlight with gunshot residue all over it.

[Ohmo]

The version of events she tried to sell in court about a life & death struggle did not explain the red flashlight with gunshot residue all over it.

 

True, I agree that she probably oversold what happened on that particular night.  When I said "version of events," I meant I think it's more likely that she shot him because he was an abuser versus shooting him to collect an insurance payout.  She shot him, so the question is why?  It would seem plausible to me that the possibility exists that he could have been abusing her..which leads to reasonable doubt.  She was convicted, which means that the jury believed that she set out to kill him.  I don't know if I buy that.  I can buy that she snapped after years of abuse, and that's why she shot him six times.

 

Of the two theories---abuse vs. money, I believe the abuse is more possible than her going after money.  Not that that's not possible---happens all the time---but if that was her true angle, she's really selling her con well.  Which, if you think about it, might have been the reason that she rolled the dice with the verdict.

 

Whatever the case, the abuse allegations would have been plausible enough to sway me toward not guilty.  I wouldn't have been certain enough of her motive to convict.

[Fable]

I do believe she was abused.  What I don't believe was that she shot him in self defense.  It's possible he did beat her that night (clearly there was a huge bruise on her arm), and she finally just had enough and decided to take matters into her own hands, grabbed the gun, followed him outside and shot him.

[walnutqueen]

I do believe she was abused.  What I don't believe was that she shot him in self defense.  It's possible he did beat her that night (clearly there was a huge bruise on her arm), and she finally just had enough and decided to take matters into her own hands, grabbed the gun, followed him outside and shot him.

 

Yes, that sounds more likely to me.  She certainly tried to cover up the crime immediately thereafter, and if the cop hadn't looked in the clock, may well have gotten away with it.

[LakeGal]

I believe she was abused.  I believe her friends and others that talked about how he treated her.  I do not believe his family.  They would protect his image whether they knew he was abusive or not.  Even the sister-in-law talked about the stories she told about being assualted by strangers.  I think these were the made up stories to explain the bruises.  Steroids crossed my mind too.

 

I do not believe the story she tells about that night.  I think more likely she picked that night to kill him after years of abuse. I am not sure she was in immediate danger at the time.  She might have just told him to go outside to check something and used the opportunity to sneak attack him.  She should have taken the deal. 

[saber5055]

I fell asleep and missed the last half. Was the woman convicted of murder? Right away I thought the guy was on steroids, he was  beyond huge in those photos of him at the Olympics. That COULD also explain why they could not have kids (steroids makes men sterile) and his growing violent temper.

 

I saw up to where her PJs tested positive for gunpowder and his abuse was suggested. Then ... ZZzzzzzzz.

[Ohmo]

I believe she was abused.  I believe her friends and others that talked about how he treated her.  I do not believe his family.  They would protect his image whether they knew he was abusive or not.  Even the sister-in-law talked about the stories she told about being assualted by strangers.  I think these were the made up stories to explain the bruises.  Steroids crossed my mind too.

 

I do not believe the story she tells about that night.  I think more likely she picked that night to kill him after years of abuse. I am not sure she was in immediate danger at the time.  She might have just told him to go outside to check something and used the opportunity to sneak attack him.  She should have taken the deal. 

 

I don't believe the whole crawling on the floor part of the story, and I don't think she necessarily picked that night.  I think he did threaten their son in some way (not sure if it was with the gun or not), but I think that's what set her off and made her snap.

 

I fell asleep and missed the last half. Was the woman convicted of murder? Right away I thought the guy was on steroids, he was  beyond huge in those photos of him at the Olympics. That COULD also explain why they could not have kids (steroids makes men sterile) and his growing violent temper.

 

I saw up to where her PJs tested positive for gunpowder and his abuse was suggested. Then ... ZZzzzzzzz.

She was convicted of first degree murder just a week or two ago.  However, in 2013 the DA offered her a deal.  Plead guilty to voluntary manslaughter and she'd be sentenced to six years.  Would likely have served three (meaning that she'd be released this year).  Her attorney told her she should take the deal.  She didn't and chose to go to trial instead.

[biakbiak]

I don't really buy steroids being a factor, he stopped competing in 1988 and the murder happened in 2009, most of the abuse stories also happened years after he stopped competing.

[Fable]

I don't really buy steroids being a factor, he stopped competing in 1988 and the murder happened in 2009, most of the abuse stories also happened years after he stopped competing.

 

I can't disagree, but if he was on steroids in the early part of the relationship and became abusive, it might have set a precedence for things to come.  

 

But, maybe steroids had nothing to do with it.  He could have just been asshole!   

Edited April 3, 2016 by Fable

[Ohmo]

I'm not putting a date on this because I'm sure it's a repeat.  However, it was new to me.  Paula led a high-risk lifestyle, and she and Kevin were troubled, but having one's body burned in a dumpster seems utterly horrific.  Kevin seems to have evened his life out somewhat, and her sister has appeared to have had a difficult life as well.  I hope the bastard is eventually caught.  There doesn't seem like much action lately.  Here are a few pieces of info that I found.  I don't think Kevin is responsible.

 

Paula Sladewski True Crime Report

 

Family feuds over murdered Playboy model's belongings

 

[saber5055]

Thanks Ohmo. She hasn't been sentenced yet then, right? What sentence does everyone here feel she should receive? Yeah, voluntary manslaughter is sure better than first-degree murder. Hindsight ... it's always 20/20.

 

I only know about steroids from what I see on tv and read. I don't know if there is any residual affect, but yeah, if they gave him a propensity toward violence then, it could have set the stage for how he treated her in the future. Who knows how the brain works.

[Ohmo]

Thanks Ohmo. She hasn't been sentenced yet then, right? What sentence does everyone here feel she should receive? Yeah, voluntary manslaughter is sure better than first-degree murder. Hindsight ... it's always 20/20.

 

I only know about steroids from what I see on tv and read. I don't know if there is any residual affect, but yeah, if they gave him a propensity toward violence then, it could have set the stage for how he treated her in the future. Who knows how the brain works.

 

No, she hasn't been sentenced yet.  In terms of steroids (and this is completely a lay person's knowledge), I don't think all of them have reversible effects.  In some cases, I believe the damage that is done is permanent.  Therefore, I'd still believe that steroids could be a continuing factor even years after he stopped.

 

As far as the sentence goes, I think that's sticky.  If I were going to sentence her, I'd likely vote for something along the lines of what the DA offered in 2013.  She refused that offer, so a part of me think there needs to be a consequence for that action.  Not because of punishment but because she freely chose to not only refuse the offer but also to ignore her attorney.  She was certainly within her right to do that, but I think that becomes a mitigating factor in and of itself, just like the abuse.  Yes, she was abused, but she rolled the dice and the jury convicted her.  That choice comes with a consequence of its own.

 

I'd give her 10 years, thinking she'd probably do about 5.  Much like 6 would have become 3.  I think her sentence should be a bit more than the offer she refused.

[ari333]

Wow.I cant believe she stayed in the club when her bf got bounced.

 

At 14 dating a 29 yr old man. Yikes.

[Jpxfactor]

She killed the man ...she could of just left. She needs to go away for a long time. I don't buy her storie.

[saber5055]

She killed the man ...she could of just left.

 

Abused spouses, especially battered women, will tell you that is easy to write, sometimes if not always, impossible to do. There is no way for someone who has never been abused to even imagine what that situation is like. Words are easy, actions are not. Especially when an action can cause a very serious REaction from the abuser.

Edited April 3, 2016 by saber5055

[walnutqueen]

She was convicted of 1st degree murder, not second degree, not manslaughter.  I guess the jury wasn't convinced that it was self defense.  I think she planned it quite carefully, and only screwed up when she mentioned the red flashlight in her initial "intruder" story.  The cop finding the gun was a total fluke.

 

Many women are abused and battered; few find homicide as the only way out.

[ari333]

The ending was kind of left up in the air... unless the DVR cut off early and I missed something.

[Ohmo]

I think she planned it quite carefully,

 

WQ, it's funny how different people interpret the same thing because I get the total opposite vibe.  I don't think she planned it at all, or very little if she did.  The grandfather clock seems to me like an available space that's quickly handy that she thought would not be searched.  She also stuffed the clothes that she had worn in the space between the wall and the dryer.  The cops are going to search the house.  Stuffing clothes in an out-of-the way space of a laundry room does not point to planning for me.

 

This is one where jury videos would have been interesting. I'm curious to know how they got to the belief that she planned it

[biakbiak]

I don't think all of them have reversible effects. In some cases, I believe the damage that is done is permanent. Therefore, I'd still believe that steroids could be a continuing factor even years after he stopped

Effects on organs can irreversible not the rage issues (which also don't effect all steroid users). Also, plenty was known about steroids during the trial and it was never mentioned. It's even speculation if he was doing steroids ever in his life.

Edited April 3, 2016 by biakbiak

[ButterQueen]

She killed the man ...she could of just left. She needs to go away for a long time. I don't buy her storie.

I agree! I didn't believe any of her story.

She was convicted of 1st degree murder, not second degree, not manslaughter.  I guess the jury wasn't convinced that it was self defense.  I think she planned it quite carefully, and only screwed up when she mentioned the red flashlight in her initial "intruder" story.  The cop finding the gun was a total fluke.

 

Many women are abused and battered; few find homicide as the only way out.

Exactly. And she will be sentenced for first degree murder. Too bad she turned down the deal, but that's too bad.