All Episodes Discussion

[iMonrey]

Quote

I am on the fence about this one. Deleting text messages is suspicious....especially during the service. Who does that?

It was established early on that Robert had talked to someone outside the fraternity about some of the pledge week hazing, which is why he was being "punished." That's strictly secret, pledges aren't supposed to tell anyone outside the frat what goes on. So it's not surprising his frat brothers went through his texts to make sure nothing damaging against the frat would be found there.

[biakbiak]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

So it's not surprising his frat brothers went through his texts to make sure nothing damaging against the frat would be found there.

I do find it surprising that anyone who was not doing something criminal would feel it necessary to go through his phone and more importantly his computer during the memorial service of their friend.

[Ohmo]

On 7/2/2019 at 7:39 PM, sainte-chapelle said:

I think that Robert was no Saint and likely his death was accidental, the family just doesn't want to accept it.

I agree that Robert was no saint, but I don't agree that this was an accident.  Those boys---Marshall and Michael---disgusted me, and I think they and the chapter of the fraternity as a whole are indeed culpable, even if it can't be proven. 

The freshness of the bruises wasn't a game changer for me.  A friend's roommate rushed a sorority in college, and I remember her pledge activities being several days long, if not a week.  If Robert had ticked off his frat brothers, they could have been beating him over the course of days, allowing for some of the healing.  Something that was done to him that night could have been small, but compounded by other injuries.  I don't believe Marshall and Michael are as innocent as the driven snow.  I just don't.

It wouldn't make me sad if fraternities and sororities entirely ceased to exist one day.  They seem to serve no purpose other than to meet the desire to get shit-faced drunk, and they cause pain, injury, and death.

Edited July 4, 2019 by Ohmo

[ButterQueen]

19 hours ago, Melina22 said:

There's a Crime Con?? It sounds like something I'd totally want to go to, but then be too embarrassed to attend. 😁

https://www.crimecon.com/ 

There is also a Facebook page.

[Melina22]

6 minutes ago, ButterQueen said:

There is also a Facebook page

I checked out the link. So, so weird and yet fascinating. I laughed when I saw the pic of someone getting a selfie with Keith. 

[ButterQueen]

17 minutes ago, Melina22 said:

I checked out the link. So, so weird and yet fascinating. I laughed when I saw the pic of someone getting a selfie with Keith. 

It’s a big deal.  Lots of great speakers.

[sainte-chapelle]

1 hour ago, Ohmo said:

I agree that Robert was no saint, but I don't agree that this was an accident.  Those boys---Marshall and Michael disgusted me, and I think they and the chapter of the fraternity as a whole are indeed culpable, even if it can't be proven. 

The freshness of the bruises wasn't a game changer for me.  A friend's roommate rushed a sorority in college, and I remember her pledge activities being several days long, if not a week.  If Robert had ticked off his frat brothers, they could have been beating him over the course of days, allowing for some of the healing.  Something that was done to him that night could have been small, but compounded by other injuries.  I don't believe Marshall and Michael are as innocent as the driven show.  I just don't.

It wouldn't make me sad if fraternities and sororities entirely ceased to exist one day.  They seem to serve no purpose other than to meet the desire to get shit-faced drunk, and they cause pain, injury, and death.

Those boys are all awful, completely morally bankrupt. Robert was indeed a part of this frat and likely almost as terrible as the lot of them. Laying with dogs one gets fleas. I feel terrible for his family and it is too bad he hung out with that lot of sociopaths. Something happened to be certain, I am just not sure if it was murder. I am still on the fence but I don't believe for one second that Robert wasn't 'punished'. Whether or not that lead to his death I am not sure. You do make an excellent point about compounded injuries, plus a mixture of booze and oxy is bad news.

Edited July 4, 2019 by sainte-chapelle

[Ohmo]

6 hours ago, biakbiak said:

I do find it surprising that anyone who was not doing something criminal would feel it necessary to go through his phone and more importantly his computer during the memorial service of their friend.

And at his parents' home no less.  That's what blew my mind.  Going through his computer files.  Lounging on the beds.  If they were close high school friends that his parents had known about for years, this MAYBE could have been excusable (but not acceptable) behavior.  However, for these obnoxious frat boys?  No way.  His mother should have thrown all of them out of her home.

[cooksdelight]

The frat should have been shut down, like the one at another university when the student had too much to drink in a hazing event and died. And, the president should be held accountable for trying to cover it up. It seems he has too much clout, and pull, with police.

[JudyObscure]

I was sort of amazed at the display of money.  I'm used to seeing mansions of movie stars and royalty and ordinary middle class houses like the one I live in, and reality TV like Dateline and Cops show us plenty of the poorer sections of town,   but I realized I was seeing a class I'm just not very familiar  with. 

The hunting lodge! It looked like about 4000 sq ft of leather, plaid fabric, wool rugs and duck decoys.  Then the really beautifully decorated house we saw the mother sitting in with a baby grand tucked in a corner and fresh flowers everywhere.  She seemed like a really nice, loving mother, too.  How do intelligent people who have so many resources to help them,  do such a bad job raising their children?  I can't imagine that anyone would be in that fraternity unless he had the same obnoxious sense of entitlement that the school President's son had.  Whatever happened to noblesse oblige?

[cooksdelight]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

How do intelligent people who have so many resources to help them,  do such a bad job raising their children? 

I don’t know anything about this family except the husband/father was obviously very successful. That would have required his wife to attend all the right social events and host parties, fund-raisers, etc. Her children may have been sent to boarding school. Who knows? But from the few families of wealth that I have been around, the parents were not very involved in their upbringing. They weren’t out in the backyard playing catch with them, etc. Also, when you’re in school and everyone knows you’re the rich kids, the bad boys will come calling .... to mooch money for drugs, booze, and make the rich kid feel like he’s one of the regular kids. I’ve seen it happen too often.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I do find it surprising that anyone who was not doing something criminal would feel it necessary to go through his phone and more importantly his computer during the memorial service of their friend.

Well technically hazing is a criminal activity. I think that was my point. Robert was talking to someone outside the fraternity about various pledge activities, no doubt hazing included, and that's a real no-no within the frat. That's why he was in trouble with his frat bros. I don't know to what extent that activity led to his death, honestly, but it seems obvious to me why those guys wanted to make sure he didn't leave any written or recorded evidence behind that could implicate them. 

[OpalNightstream]

19 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I agree that Robert was no saint, but I don't agree that this was an accident.  Those boys---Marshall and Michael---disgusted me, and I think they and the chapter of the fraternity as a whole are indeed culpable, even if it can't be proven. 

The freshness of the bruises wasn't a game changer for me.  A friend's roommate rushed a sorority in college, and I remember her pledge activities being several days long, if not a week.  If Robert had ticked off his frat brothers, they could have been beating him over the course of days, allowing for some of the healing.  Something that was done to him that night could have been small, but compounded by other injuries.  I don't believe Marshall and Michael are as innocent as the driven snow.  I just don't.

It wouldn't make me sad if fraternities and sororities entirely ceased to exist one day.  They seem to serve no purpose other than to meet the desire to get shit-faced drunk, and they cause pain, injury, and death.

I agree about getting rid of sororities and frats. But the people who are in them will argue that they all volunteer and provide services to the less fortunate. They like to pretend they are  boy/Girl Scouts. 

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, OpalNightstream said:

I agree about getting rid of sororities and frats. But the people who are in them will argue that they all volunteer and provide services to the less fortunate. They like to pretend they are  boy/Girl Scouts. 

I've heard that as well, but the problem with that is that this supposed "service" never seems to be seen, even on campus or around campus.  We're not talking a visible organization, such as Habitat for Humanity, where you see actual houses being built.  Most of the sororities and some of the frats at OSU touted all of the charity work that they supposedly did, but if it was done (and I wasn't in a sorority), it only seemed visible within the sorority, which always made me suspicious if any charity work was actually being done.  I vary rarely remember hearing, as just an average college student, that XYZ frat or sorority was doing something charitable, and if they were, it was almost never shown to the non-Greek community.  That was always a red flag to me that the charity work was minimal at best or an outright sham.  Conversely, I heard about plenty of parties that frats or sororities seemed to be hosting,

[OpalNightstream]

11 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

I've heard that as well, but the problem with that is that this supposed "service" never seems to be seen, even on campus or around campus.  We're not talking a visible organization, such as Habitat for Humanity, where you see actual houses being built.  Most of the sororities and some of the frats at OSU touted all of the charity work that they supposedly did, but if it was done (and I wasn't in a sorority), it only seemed visible within the sorority, which always made me suspicious if any charity work was actually being done.  I vary rarely remember hearing, as just an average college student, that XYZ frat or sorority was doing something charitable, and if they were, it was almost never shown to the non-Greek community.  That was always a red flag to me that the charity work was minimal at best or an outright sham.  Conversely, I heard about plenty of parties that frats or sororities seemed to be hosting,

Yes! I noticed that in college too.  And if everyone was actually honest, they would admit to joining the frats and sororities for the parties and friends, NOT because they were interested in charity work. Colleges have plenty of ways to meaningfully volunteer without needing Greek life.

[ridethemaverick]

On 7/3/2019 at 10:40 PM, sainte-chapelle said:

Those boys are all awful, completely morally bankrupt. Robert was indeed a part of this frat and likely almost as terrible as the lot of them. Laying with dogs one gets fleas. I feel terrible for his family and it is too bad he hung out with that lot of sociopaths. 

I couldn't stop thinking about how if the victim had been some scholarship kid with no pedigree who had died under the same circumstances, Robert's mom would be using her money and influence to help cover her son's ass just like the other frat bros. It just so happens it was rich kid vs. other rich kids this time.

That said, I do believe they killed him in the process of hazing/punishing him and I hate that they got away with it.

[cooksdelight]

When I watch Law & Order and they arrest someone in the first 15-20 minutes, I know that person is innocent. The true criminal isn’t arrested until halfway through, to allow McCoy or whomever time to present a good case.

On tonight’s episode, once they had convicted the guy at the half hour mark, I knew there was someone or something else involved. That wife is nuts. Absolutely freaky crazy nuts! I bet Matt was thrilled to get away from her after her “like” scary story. And she was a teacher!! Her lawyer letting her talk to Keith before trial was bizarre. Then again, he was an idiot to let her take an Alford plea, since she had the chance to get 25 years from the prosecutor’s deal, but now spends life without parole. Just like her husband. 

I hope the kids turn out OK. Their mother/step-mother didn’t give two shits about them.

[EtheltoTillie]

I think tonight’s episode was a rerun. Not sure though. Anyway, another one of those sicko custody related murders. 

[Ohmo]

16 hours ago, GussieK said:

I think tonight’s episode was a rerun. Not sure though. Anyway, another one of those sicko custody related murders. 

I thought it was, too,  However, I saw Dateline commercials that were labeled NEW.  Yet, I'd seen the case before, so either 48 Hours did it, or it was an update.  The part about Richie's conviction being upheld seemed like a new tidbit that I didn't remember hearing before.

I was also surprised that Cyndi has decided NOT to appeal.  She's exactly where she belongs.  I'm just surprised that she's not even bothering with the pretense of an appeal.  Lack of money for lawyers?

I do feel sorry for Angila and her children. (I looked it up.  This is how she spelled her name.)  She seemed like a sweet person who seemed to be getting her life together.

[JudyObscure]

18 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

I bet Matt was thrilled to get away from her after her “like” scary story. And she was a teacher!!

I felt sad for Matt who feels a burden of guilt for, as he put it, virtually taking away someone's life.  He should remind himself that she had custody of  several little children and responsibility for a whole classroom of third graders, yet she could casually say that she would have burned down Angila's house with a toddler in it.  On top of all the other stuff it sounded like she had been  leaving those little ones alone at night to sit outside Angila's house and plot murder.

[TVbitch]

I've definitely seen this case before.

Did anyone from Angila's side give an interview? 

At least Cyndi's sister was not delusional about her guilt. I guess her husband was willing to take the heat for the whole thing, but she still blew it ....by complaining how he was sloppy ...to a wired police informant. 

[JudyObscure]

7 minutes ago, TVbitch said:

but she still blew it ....by complaining how he was sloppy ...to a wired police informant. 

I think she wanted to be more than friends and, as she said, really was trying to impress him.  Only she was trying to impress him by telling him the truth not by making anything up as she tried to say.  Matt was good looking  and she was lonely.  He said she jumped at the chance to go out with him and when he took her home, just sat in the car like a lump for an hour -- no doubt hoping he would make a romantic move. Suddenly she was telling the true story of the murder just to keep him there a little longer. Evil and stupid.

[cooksdelight]

Don’t know if any of you were aware they put a 2-hr episode on tonight when NASCAR got rained out or something. I’ve not seen it before. About the murders of the DA and his wife, and a prosecutor in Kaufmann County, TX.

[druzy]

3 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

Don’t know if any of you were aware they put a 2-hr episode on tonight when NASCAR got rained out or something. I’ve not seen it before. About the murders of the DA and his wife, and a prosecutor in Kaufmann County, TX.

Thanks!

[Ohmo]

5 hours ago, TVbitch said:

Did anyone from Angila's side give an interview? 

Cyndi's sister (with the colorful hair) was interviewed, and I thought Angila's sister was interviewed as well, although her interview seemed to be much shorter than many family member interviews that I've seen on Dateline.

[Irlandesa]

There's just something about the body language of some of the perps on this show that basically screams "I'm guilty."  It's similar to the one of the wife/teacher when she came in and basically sat super casually in the chair.  Laid back. Arms crossed.  Legs crossed.  Leaning into the back of the chair in a way that gives a "whatever" attitude.

I'm bummed my DVR didn't pick up the episode tonight.

[cooksdelight]

You can Google to find more information, or check to see if it’s online.

https://www.cedarcreeklake.com/entertainment--nbc-dateline-to-air-vendetta-the-story-of-3-kaufman-county-murders/2500

[biakbiak]

23 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I'm bummed my DVR didn't pick up the episode tonight.

You probably have seen it before it’s been shown on all the true crime shows over the years and there wasn’t really anything  new.

[Irlandesa]

6 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

You probably have seen it before it’s been shown on all the true crime shows over the years and there wasn’t really anything  new.

Thanks.  The description doesn't look familiar.  I just stared DVRing Dateline a few months ago.  While I do like true crime, I've started avoiding other shows because of their weird music choices. There's something about the way Dateline tells a story that moves things along.

[iMonrey]

The Secret Keepers? Wasn't that a Netflix miniseries? Anyway, I knew right away the wife was involved, because Keith Morrison wasn't interviewing her. Dead giveaway.

[Ohmo]

The thing that got me about the Secret Keepers was that Carol's animosity seemed to date back to childhood.  It's not uncommon for siblings to be estranged due to events that happen in adulthood, but Carol seemed like a bad seed from birth.

[LakeGal]

I laughed at Keith calling her the Dimwit Sister.  

[LittleIggy]

On 7/4/2019 at 11:14 AM, cooksdelight said:

I don’t know anything about this family except the husband/father was obviously very successful. That would have required his wife to attend all the right social events and host parties, fund-raisers, etc. Her children may have been sent to boarding school. Who knows? But from the few families of wealth that I have been around, the parents were not very involved in their upbringing. They weren’t out in the backyard playing catch with them, etc. Also, when you’re in school and everyone knows you’re the rich kids, the bad boys will come calling .... to mooch money for drugs, booze, and make the rich kid feel like he’s one of the regular kids. I’ve seen it happen too often.

The mother is an heiress to a huge fortune. Don’t know about the dad. Robert went to Memphis University School which is a very expensive private school (I lived in Memphis for a long time). Even if he was a spoiled party boy, he didn’t deserve to die for revealing fraternity secrets. WTF is that anyway? 

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Even if he was a spoiled party boy, he didn’t deserve to die for revealing fraternity secrets. WTF is that anyway?

Seriously.  What were they hiding?  Their most dearly held habits of perverse and illegal hazing?   Why not just kick Robert out and let him make a few friends who aren't exactly like everyone he grew up with? 

[A.Ham]

20 hours ago, LakeGal said:

I laughed at Keith calling her the Dimwit Sister.

This alone makes me want to watch the episode...

[Ohmo]

5 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Why not just kick Robert out and let him make a few friends who aren't exactly like everyone he grew up with? 

It sounded like some of the girls he hung out with came from different socioeconomic backgrounds.  The one young lady explicitly said that he bought her a ticket for a festival that she could not have afforded otherwise.  One of the other young women that was interviewed described the frat as for those guys who didn't have to think of their futures.  That word choice leans toward the way a person would describe a group that she is not part of.  From that, I'm guessing that her socioeconomic status was not similar to Robert's socioeconomic status.

Edited July 10, 2019 by Ohmo

[JudyObscure]

46 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

It sounded like some of the girls he hung out with came from different socioeconomic backgrounds.  The one young lady explicitly said that he bought her a ticket for a festival that she could not have afforded otherwise.  One of the other young women that was interviewed described the frat as for those guys who didn't have to think of their futures.  That word choice leans toward the way a person would describe a group that she is not part of.  From that, I'm guessing that her socioeconomic status was not similar to Robert's socioeconomic status.

You're right, I was just thinking of his fellow frat brothers and forgot that the girls he knew were also friends and not just girlfriends.

[Ohmo]

Charlie Tan: I feel like there's a piece of the story missing.  I don't agree with the last female prosecutor who said that she took Charlie's statement during his federal sentencing as an admission that he shot his father.   I still think that while he helped, his mother could have been the one to actually have shot her husband.

It's clear that there was planning involved, but I don't necessarily attribute all of that to Charlie..  I think it's just as likely that his mother did the planning and Charlie was following her wishes, not the other way around.

I also don't understand why both of them kept coming back to the U.S. if they both held Canadian citizenship.  They wouldn't have avoided extradition indefinitely, but they certain could have lengthened the process.  This entire case was strange.

[iMonrey]

Yeah, ultimately I felt bad for Charlie. By all accounts he had everything going for him except really screwed-up parents. Clearly the mother was being abused, possibly Charlie had been as well. I don't understand why the prosecutor had such a hard on for this poor kid.

What I don't understand is how the coroner didn't notice the body had been dead for five days when they called 911. Surely someone who does this sort of thing for a living would have seen the obvious signs. 

[cooksdelight]

52 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

What I don't understand is how the coroner didn't notice the body had been dead for five days when they called 911. Surely someone who does this sort of thing for a living would have seen the obvious signs. 

I had a problem with that also. His body would have started to decompose. Within 24 hours it starts to smell bad. And if there were flies or other insects in the house, you’d notice that as well.

[Ohmo]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah, ultimately I felt bad for Charlie. By all accounts he had everything going for him except really screwed-up parents. Clearly the mother was being abused, possibly Charlie had been as well. I don't understand why the prosecutor had such a hard on for this poor kid.

Agreed.  The prosecutor's office also gave a press conference after the sentencing for the gun charge, and the prosecutor is insistent that there is overwhelming evidence that Charlie shot his father.  Nothing in that press conference got me to think that.  His mother could have planned and been involved just as much as Charlie could.  There is nothing overwhelming to me that makes me sure that Charlie was the one "in charge."

I was also struck by something else.  People can lie and deceive.  Watching crime shows tells us this. Yet, I was struck by how many people were in support of Charlie and the lack of rsupport for his dad.  Charlie could have indeed snowed everyone, but his father could have also been abusive.  It's like as soon as the four days came into the equation, all possibility of Charlie's father being abusive vanished.  I don't know.  i fee l sorry for Charlie.  I think it's more than possible that Jean shot her husband, and I don't find myself feeling that sorry for Jim.

I've also seen this mentioned on Twitter.  Charlie has a brother.  What's his take on all of this, I wonder?

[Ohmo]

Feds allege Charlie Tan sold marijuana, psychedelic drugs while in college

Even if true, I still don't know how you don't look at Charlie's mom.  How do you just assume that Charlie was the mastermind here?

I found a Reddit thread where someone made a passing comment that the brother was now running the father's company, but nothing was offered in the thread to substantiate or support this claim.

[TVbitch]

This case stuck with me when it first aired, cuz.... WTF?! There are two people in the house with a body, but because it isn't clear who pulled the trigger, they both beat the murder charge. That is kind of crazy! No need to come up with an elaborate plot, would-be-murderers, just have two of you there and no one fess up! 

It's odd they found no communications between Charlie and Mom leading up to this. I assume they went through their phones/computers/etc. 

I'm not pro-Charlie. His dad may very well have been an abusive asshole, but you can't just kill assholes. (Or half my family would be dead!) If he and his mom were at the point that they seriously wanted to kill him, maybe Mom should get out of the marriage, and Charlie should cut dad out of his life! Of course that would have financial consequences and I don't believe for one second those were not a consideration.

Even if it was Mom who master-minded that Dad had to be killed, Charlie is a grown educated man and could have choosen not to participate. He bought the gun, and if he didn't do it himself, he knew it was gonna happen and could have stopped it. Why couldn't Charlie just say, Mom, I will stand by your side and help you through a divorce, but I'm not going to partake in murder. 

Edited July 13, 2019 by TVbitch

[saber5055]

I was confused by the entire Charlie Tan episode. So his dad was a guy no one liked. So what. That makes it okay to ambush him and shoot/kill him in cold blood while he's at his computer? Then leave his dead body in the house while you take off for a vaca in Canada for four days? Then make a fake call to 911? And Charlie Tan is the good guy in all this? WTH is wrong with people.

Was it impossible to divorce this guy? Move out? Would Charlie be cut out of the will if he kills his dad? Would mom lose the insurance money if she pulled the trigger?

There were just so many holes. And I just can't get with continuing to think Charlie's the World's Greatest Guy in the World since he obviously was in on the whole "Show Time" event. And Charlie AND mom get off Scot free ... why? WTH.

Meanwhile, EVERYTHING @TVbitch said, and said so much better than I.

[cooksdelight]

Dateline is famous for leaving out important little details, wondering if that happened in this case. And I might have missed this, but were Charlie and Mom in the house with the dead body stinking up the place all those days?

[Ohmo]

42 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

And Charlie AND mom get off Scot free ... why?

Mom is the one that got off scot-free, not Charlie.  He's in prison due to the federal gun charges which the prosecution went after as a way to hold someone accountable for the murder.  He is definitely not scot-free.

[saber5055]

16 minutes ago, cooksdelight said:

And I might have missed this, but were Charlie and Mom in the house with the dead body stinking up the place all those days?

I believe the show said they went to Canada after killing dad. No mention of what they did there. They came back four days later, the body still there and, yes, stinking according to police reports. "That decomposition smell" one said.

14 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Mom is the one that got off scot-free, not Charlie.  He's in prison due to the federal gun charges which the prosecution went after as a way to hold someone accountable for the murder.  He is definitely not scot-free.

Oh wow, I totally missed that part. Thanks for that info. Did the show say for how long he will be in prison? I obviously blocked that part after being so appalled at Charlie's Cheerleaders following him around for moral support.

[Ohmo]

1 hour ago, saber5055 said:

Oh wow, I totally missed that part. Thanks for that info. Did the show say for how long he will be in prison? I obviously blocked that part after being so appalled at Charlie's Cheerleaders following him around for moral support.

The Dateline episode said that he was sentenced in November 2018 to 20 years in federal prison.  The local press conference  video that a Rochester paper had that I found online---the prosecutor said that Charlie will likely serve 17 years with time off for good behavior.  After he serves his prison sentence, he'll be deported to Canada.

[JudyObscure]

Yes, Charlie got 20 years for manipulating his friend into buying a gun that was used in a felony.  Who knew that was a twenty year offense?

Still, I'm glad he's in prison.  Whether or not the mother was the mastermind who manipulated her son (and I believe she was) and whether or not Mr. Tan was abusive (and I believe he was)  Charlie either shot him in cold blood or helped his mother do it and that's still murder.

As @TVbitch said, "You can't just kill assholes."  

[UsernameFatigue]

What I didn't understand was, where was Charlie's mother through both his first trial and his second? He had his friends there supporting him, but where was she? I don't understand why she wasn't charged with anything. It seems obvious to me that Charlie did what he did (assuming he is even the one who shot his father) because his mother called him at school and asked him to come home. It seems to me that he was protecting her, and that she was using him.