S01.E07: The Future of the Sport

[shantown]

Quote

While working at a go-kart complex, Charlie becomes involved in a bitter feud between an aging race car driver and a hotheaded young upstart, whose rivalry has explosive consequences.

Streaming on Peacock starting February 16

[akg]

So was Kyle trying to kill Davis or just cause an accident? Did Davis up the stakes to attempted murder or were we already there?

I really liked the mom so I'm a little glad she'll never know how truly horrible her son is. Although I don't know what he'll do once he starts losing.

Again, I was impressed at how careful Davis was with his words to Charlie once she convinced him of her cancer sniffing dog skills. He only got caught out because she happened to overhear him reassuring that kid.

[AnimeMania]

Jack Alcott as Randy

Charles Melton as Davis McDowell, a race-car driver
Angel Desai as Jean McDowell
Jasmine Aiyana Garvin as Katy Owens
Tim Blake Nelson as Kyle Owens
Leslie Silva as Donna Owen
Sprague Theobald as Pervy Pete
Teren Carter as Zane

[Ms Blue Jay]

Bear with me, lots of thoughts tumbling out here.

Charles Melton is soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo beautiful.

Both men in this story were cold blooded as fuck evil - although, at least Kyle publicly confessed.  But at least nobody died this time.  Nice change of pace for this show.

I was dreading Charles having a tiny part, but he ended up having the way bigger part.  I was shocked that the veteran actor Tim Blake Nelson was the one who instead had the tiny part.

It was interesting how Kyle's wife called "Bullshit" on him.  Of course, I assume spouses tend to do that with each other.  But it was almost like the show was telegraphing that she is like Charlie?

One line I thought was so awkward.  Charlie saying that Davis is like "Manny Pacquiao"?  Why?  Because he's Asian?  That was soooooo weird to me.  I get the boxing/fighting connection, but she could have said anyone else!

This does not exactly paint race car drivers in the best light, LOL, but at least it was an incredibly multiracial story.  I appreciate that.

5 hours ago, akg said:

So was Kyle trying to kill Davis or just cause an accident? Did Davis up the stakes to attempted murder or were we already there?

I'm no car race or car expert, but if I had to guess, I don't see how you could intentionally cause an accident but know that the person won't die from it.  The death is always a possibility, especially when explosions are involved and people can become trapped in cars because of seatbelts and crushed doors.  Also, just the SPEED at which these cars are going.  It seems more crazy to me that people would survive such crashes rather than not.

Edited February 16, 2023 by Ms Blue Jay

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, akg said:

So was Kyle trying to kill Davis or just cause an accident? Did Davis up the stakes to attempted murder or were we already there?

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm no car race or car expert, but if I had to guess, I don't see how you could intentionally cause an accident but know that the person won't die from it.  The death is always a possibility, especially when explosions are involved and people can become trapped in cars because of seatbelts and crushed doors.  Also, just the SPEED at which these cars are going.  It seems more crazy to me that people would survive such crashes rather than not.

Good points.
But probably/maybe since the confessed saboteur's daughter survived, there might not be murder charges?  
Could the "CSI" car autopsy reveal the loosened seatbelt bolts as being done deliberately? Maybe if there were wrench marks on the bolts? 

I used to have a 1975 Chevy Malibu station wagon that, in order to get it started, I had to pop the hood, climb onto the front of the car by the engine (I'm Natasha's size) and stick a pencil into the carburetor flap to hold it open to get air while I started the ignition. (Then, with the car in park, I'd climb back up, take out the pencil, slam the hood, buckle in the kids, and take off.)

So I was really fascinated by the fish hook and the carburetor, but I still couldn't "see" what Kyle Owens was doing.
Plus, it didn't really make sense to me. 
Likewise, I couldn't see that it was seatbelt bolts that Davis was loosening.
Maybe on a rewatch it might be more obvious to me.

But I guess we were just supposed to wait for the denouement to learn exactly what they did.

 

 

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It was interesting how Kyle's wife called "Bullshit" on him.  Of course, I assume spouses tend to do that with each other.  But it was almost like the show was telegraphing that she is like Charlie?

Kyle's wife's "Bullshit" was a beautiful bit of writing at this point in the series. Almost like a variation on a Chekhovian "Bullshit!"

 

[akg]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I'm no car race or car expert, but if I had to guess, I don't see how you could intentionally cause an accident but know that the person won't die from it.  The death is always a possibility, especially when explosions are involved and people can become trapped in cars because of seatbelts and crushed doors.  Also, just the SPEED at which these cars are going.  It seems more crazy to me that people would survive such crashes rather than not.

Yeah, Kyle was definitely open to the idea of killing Davis; I'm just not sure that was his actual goal. Like he'd be fine with injured and needing a new car. Davis' sabotage seemed more coldblooded

They did a nice job making Davis into a 3 dimensional character who could have been raised by his awesome mom. He's obviously not a great guy but most of his anger came out in brief outbursts that followed obvious triggers (thanks, show, for explaining that Davis should have gotten the first interview after his win!). And he was great with all of the kids.

[Ms Blue Jay]

31 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Good points.
But probably/maybe since the confessed saboteur's daughter survived, there might not be murder charges?  

What about attempted murder?!  Criminal negligence at the very least.  There was obviously malicious intent, so I think there'd have to be some pretty bad charges involved.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

What about attempted murder?!  Criminal negligence at the very least.  There was obviously malicious intent, so I think there'd have to be some pretty bad charges involved.

But since she survived, does she have to file a complaint? [thinking Barney Miller justice]

Or were you thinking the attempted murder would be of Davis? 
If so, and *if* Davis needs to file a complaint against Kyle, Davis would be appropriately stuck between the rock of the investigation discovering his own truly murderous plot, and the hard place of not filing a complaint, which could look suspicious, I suppose, but would more likely result in him following up with some other revenge plot because he's a sociopath. 

Edited February 16, 2023 by shapeshifter

[Chaos Theory]

If there were charges the only charges would be against Kyle.   The only person who even suspects Davis knew his car was sabotaged before he let Kyle’s daughter drive it is Charlie and she isn’t sticking around.     I think this episode is more about Karma which was actually mentioned.  kyle had lost his mojo because of Davis and Charlie let Kyle know that kyles daughter (sorry I forgot her name) was coming for him and the last moment was him having the same hand tremor that Kyle had.   Maybe there would be no arrests but there are fates worse  then death and jail.

[possibilities]

There were a lot more ads this time. I think they've realized that people like the show enough that they can try making more ad breaks/profit off it than when they weren't sure if it would be a hit.

Both moms were great this week. 

[paigow]

Is Rian Johnson a Justified fan? The TV news mentioned Glencoe... home to the U.S. Marshal training facility at which Raylan and Art were firearms instructors....

Maybe Olyphant will be a guest next season... 

[paigow]

    The car caught FIRE... how could it be returned to Davis looking like it got dinged at a Wal-Mart parking lot?? It could never be certified as race-worthy ever again...

[susannot]

Did not enjoy this episode.  It was my least favorite.  I felt that it dragged and was boring.  However, as to Charles Melton I have never seen him before but agree that he is a little hottie.

[ItCouldBeWorse]

10 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It was interesting how Kyle's wife called "Bullshit" on him.  Of course, I assume spouses tend to do that with each other.  But it was almost like the show was telegraphing that she is like Charlie?

At least with her husband.

10 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

But at least nobody died this time.  Nice change of pace for this show.

I'm not convinced that Katy is out of her coma, though.  Charlie could have been lying about talking to her.  And it seems like she should have been horribly burned.

4 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

If there were charges the only charges would be against Kyle.

He had the intent to at least commit bodily harm.  It doesn't matter that the actual victim is not the same as the intended victim.

[shapeshifter]

4 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

He had the intent to at least commit bodily harm.  It doesn't matter that the actual victim is not the same as the intended victim.

Agreed.
But I thought according to the School of Law & Order that if nobody dies, it can always be walked back.  
Or maybe that’s just something they tell suspects to get them to confess?

[SomeTameGazelle]

9 hours ago, susannot said:

Did not enjoy this episode.  It was my least favorite.  I felt that it dragged and was boring.  However, as to Charles Melton I have never seen him before but agree that he is a little hottie.

I appreciated the tension over who was going to try to kill whom and because I love Tim Blake Nelson I was spitefully gratified when even though Kyle Keith was wrong to sabotage the car and it was upsetting that Katie was injured in the accident, Davis was just as bad and worse when he broke the seatbelt and lured Katie into the car. Other than that there was too much car stuff and even Davis showing Charlie how thrilling driving was didn't make me more empathetic toward his point of view. I wanted more human interaction overall.

Edited February 17, 2023 by SomeTameGazelle
Imdb has the character as Kyle for some reason

[Chaos Theory]

I do like that the show is showing that Charlie has her blind spots.  During the episode Time of the Monkey episode her bullshit meter caught lies on two occasions but since she “liked” the ladies she hand waved away the lies.  In this episode you see Davis purposely not lying to Charlie once he realize she can be used in his master scheme and instead just tells her enough of the truth to confuse the issue.   She has to catch him in a lie to someone else.    

[Ms Blue Jay]

It was interesting to see somebody kind of be intimate with Charlie, flirt with her, and have chemistry with her.  She likely felt nothing on her side, but it was something new.

[possibilities]

I do think Charlie is bound to be lonely and also increasingly traumatized as she keeps having to move  on with murder and mayhem in her wake. She's such a friendly, caring person and she's all alone.

Yes, it's fiction. But as a character trait, she's very different from the usual fugitive/loner type.

[Ms Blue Jay]

Yeah true she is very much a people person.

[paigow]

Charlie would be an ideal jury consultant / observer...

Judge: Will you be able to evaluate all the evidence impartially?

Juror #47: Yes

Charlie: Bullshit

Defence Lawyer: Challenge #47

[kay1864]

11 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Chekhovian "Bullshit!"

This may well be the first time these two words appeared next to one another in a sentence 😆

9 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

thinking Barney Miller justice

A reference every bit as current as Charlie’s “Deliverance” 😊

Edited February 17, 2023 by kay1864

[kay1864]

Best line of the night: “I’m regretting settling on that metaphor, but yes, I can…cancer-dog him”

[paigow]

7 hours ago, kay1864 said:

A reference every bit as current as Charlie’s “Deliverance” 😊

She wanted them to make Keith squeal like a pig????!!!!😮

[Snazzy Daisy]

I recognized Dexter's son as Randy!  👀

Quote

Nora tells us that it was in the Poker Face writers room that the idea of putting Charlie, specifically, into the world of late model racing that the episode found its lane. "I, frankly, wasn't familiar with it but other people in the room were," Nora admits. "But to me, it felt much more Poker Face. Like Charlie's not going to NASCAR with the big sponsors and the beer tents. And we had a lot of fun learning about that world."

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by SnazzyDaisy

[Milburn Stone]

On 2/16/2023 at 5:59 AM, akg said:

So was Kyle trying to kill Davis or just cause an accident? Did Davis up the stakes to attempted murder or were we already there?

Whether a DA would charge Kyle with attempted murder is one thing, but the show definitely wanted us to view his crime as not that. A character had a line to the effect of: "If her seatbelt had worked, she definitely wouldn't have been hurt bad." Now, whether that assertion is valid in the real world, it came from a source the audience is meant to find credible. Kyle, not having fiddled with the seatbelt, is only guilty (in the episode's intention) of "attempted non-fatal accident." Davis on the other hand disabled the seat belt, so is guilty (for the audience, the only jury that will ever hear the case) of attempted murder. 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Milburn Stone

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

Whether a DA would charge Kyle with attempted murder is one thing, but the show definitely wanted us to view his crime as not that. A character had a line to the effect of: "If her seatbelt had worked, she definitely wouldn't have been hurt bad." 

The seatbelt tampering did not cause the car to be engulfed in flames... 

[shapeshifter]

12 hours ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

It was interesting to see somebody kind of be intimate with Charlie, flirt with her, and have chemistry with her.  She likely felt nothing on her side, but it was something new.

Did Davis try to kiss Charlie before or after her Cancer-Dog/Bullshit-Monitor started flashing?
 

2 minutes ago, paigow said:

The seatbelt tampering did not cause the car to be engulfed in flames... 

True, but Charlie found proof that Davis did the seatbelt tampering knowing about the fishhook tampering that would likely cause the fiery crash, right? And then Davis talked Katy into taking his place as driver.

Even though Charlie left town, I imagine she could have left some damning evidence somewhere to be discovered if Davis continues to follow his killer instincts.

[Milburn Stone]

23 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

True, but Charlie found proof that Davis did the seatbelt tampering knowing about the fishhook tampering that would likely cause the fiery crash, right? And then Davis talked Katy into taking his place as driver.

And not only that, but we are clearly meant to find credible the crew guy's remark that she would have had only minor injuries if her seatbelt had worked. (Whether he was correct or not, it is unambiguous that we are meant to believe he is correct. Presumably a conscious Katy, kept from crashing through the windshield or into her steering wheel, could have escaped before the inferno.)

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Did Davis try to kiss Charlie before or after her Cancer-Dog/Bullshit-Monitor started flashing?

Davis knew about Charlie's Bullshit Detector when he made his move, but that also happened before either he or Ryan was thinking about sabotaging any race car.  

[Ms Blue Jay]

Also, if Davis was trying to kiss Charlie simply for lying/bullshit reasons, I think Charlie would have called him on it. That kiss was for real ;)

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Also, if Davis was trying to kiss Charlie simply for lying/bullshit reasons, I think Charlie would have called him on it. That kiss was for real ;)

Davis' attempted kiss of Charlie sure exuded real chemistry on screen, but that's the thing about sociopathic killers.

[Ms Blue Jay]

I see it more as psychopathic, but I take your point.

[Captain Carrot]

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

And not only that, but we are clearly meant to find credible the crew guy's remark that she would have had only minor injuries if her seatbelt had worked. (Whether he was correct or not, it is unambiguous that we are meant to believe he is correct. Presumably a conscious Katy, kept from crashing through the windshield or into her steering wheel, could have escaped before the inferno.)

I do think the driver should have been safe from serious harm. (Based on the experience I obtained from watching Ford vs Ferrari). In that movie it was stated that the driver was fairly safe in an accident as long as they could get out of the car if it caught on fire. (Flame retardant suits, roll cages, and etc. make for fairly safe cars).

Regardless, I think it's safe to assume that Kyle thought the driver would be safe. Charlie saw his confession where he stated that he didn't think anyone would be hurt and called him a mensch at the end. I don't think she would have said so if he had lied.

All of which is my way of saying that Davis was MUCH worse than Kyle. Kyle attempted to sabotage a competitor, but thought no one would be seriously hurt. Davis tried to kill Katy (who had only committed the cardinal sin of making Davis look bad), then he tried to kill Charlie.

Edited February 17, 2023 by Captain Carrot

[sharifa70]

On 2/16/2023 at 10:14 AM, shapeshifter said:

I used to have a 1975 Chevy Malibu station wagon that, in order to get it started, I had to pop the hood, climb onto the front of the car by the engine (I'm Natasha's size) and stick a pencil into the carburetor flap to hold it open to get air while I started the ignition. (Then, with the car in park, I'd climb back up, take out the pencil, slam the hood, buckle in the kids, and take off.)

Ha! I drove a ‘67 Malibu with a tricky carburetor, only I didn’t have to climb on anything and I used a screwdriver instead of a pencil. It also had a leaky radiator so I had to keep a gallon of water handy at all times, as well as drive with the heat blasting in 105 degree Idaho summers. God, I loved that car! Good times….

I appreciated Charlie’s final chat with Davis. The way she appeared to psych him out gave me Doctor Who vibes: “Don’t you think she looks tired?”
 

 

[paigow]

There is NO Kyle!

Keith Owens a.k.a. Buster Scruggs rigged the fish hook booby trap...

Unfortunately, the casting credits might have been based on an early draft

 

[paigow]

12 hours ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

I recognized Dexter's son as Randy!  👀

I completely missed that because Randy was an outgoing, cheerful character....

[Ms Blue Jay]

5 hours ago, Captain Carrot said:

I do think the driver should have been safe from serious harm. (Based on the experience I obtained from watching Ford vs Ferrari). In that movie it was stated that the driver was fairly safe in an accident as long as they could get out of the car if it caught on fire. (Flame retardant suits, roll cages, and etc. make for fairly safe cars).

Regardless, I think it's safe to assume that Kyle thought the driver would be safe. Charlie saw his confession where he stated that he didn't think anyone would be hurt and called him a mensch at the end. I don't think she would have said so if he had lied.

All of which is my way of saying that Davis was MUCH worse than Kyle. Kyle attempted to sabotage a competitor, but thought no one would be seriously hurt. Davis tried to kill Katy (who had only committed the cardinal sin of making Davis look bad), then he tried to kill Charlie.

I just can't get behind this.  Didn't Katy immediately drive into a wall?  How can one be sure someone won't die from that.  Maybe you're right that the logic of the show is putting that forward, but I don't know if I can.

Edited February 18, 2023 by Ms Blue Jay

[Accidental Martyr]

On 2/16/2023 at 9:10 PM, susannot said:

Did not enjoy this episode.  It was my least favorite.  I felt that it dragged and was boring.  

Yeah, the best thing about this episode was The Breeders song in the credits.

 

[gesundheit]

On 2/16/2023 at 11:53 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

One line I thought was so awkward.  Charlie saying that Davis is like "Manny Pacquiao"?  Why?  Because he's Asian?  That was soooooo weird to me.  I get the boxing/fighting connection, but she could have said anyone else!

Maybe I'm overidentifying with Charlie here but I have to confess: if you asked me to name all the current (or event recent?) professional fighters in any genre of professional fighting? Manny Pacquiao is probably the only name I could come up with. (I have no idea if he's current, even, just that he's a known name even to people like me who are totally clueless about that world.) (I also had no idea he's Asian.)

On 2/16/2023 at 1:14 PM, shapeshifter said:

Good points.
But probably/maybe since the confessed saboteur's daughter survived, there might not be murder charges?  
Could the "CSI" car autopsy reveal the loosened seatbelt bolts as being done deliberately? Maybe if there were wrench marks on the bolts? 

I can't imagine there's much that can be proven at all considering Keith and two other people already opened up the car and poked around in it.

On 2/16/2023 at 10:26 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I'm not convinced that Katy is out of her coma, though.  Charlie could have been lying about talking to her.  And it seems like she should have been horribly burned.

They showed her though -- she looked pretty burned up, but was certainly talking. I don't think that was supposed to be imaginary.

On 2/16/2023 at 10:57 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

It was interesting to see somebody kind of be intimate with Charlie, flirt with her, and have chemistry with her.  She likely felt nothing on her side, but it was something new.

It's funny, one thing I was thinking about right before I started this episode was whether or not they'd ever give Charlie a romantic situation or at least a one-night stand in one of these episodes, and then that was the first time there was even a spark of anything! The show certainly doesn't need it but I do wonder if/how such a thing will ever come into play beyond this small bit.

[Ms Blue Jay]

31 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Maybe I'm overidentifying with Charlie here but I have to confess: if you asked me to name all the current (or event recent?) professional fighters in any genre of professional fighting? Manny Pacquiao is probably the only name I could come up with. (I have no idea if he's current, even, just that he's a known name even to people like me who are totally clueless about that world.) (I also had no idea he's Asian.)

I think it's pretty clear that Charlie is known for making extremely apt references.  What about all the film references she makes?  She wouldn't make a reference if she didn't know what she was talking about.  That's why it annoyed me.

[Tuggy]

6 hours ago, gesundheit said:

They showed her though -- she looked pretty burned up, but was certainly talking. I don't think that was supposed to be imaginary.

It was showed, but it could as well be an invention rather than an actual memory. The way it was shown (no sound, a bit overexposed) made me also think that it was a lie supposed to make Davies lose his flow.

Like in the previous episode, I found it strange that they did not show was happened after that (the arrest for the previous one, the actual recovery in this one).

[Milburn Stone]

As to whether the cutaway to a recovering Katy was false...it didn't seem that way to me, and one of the reasons is that so far, neither the "false cutaway" nor "false flashback" seems to be in the vocabulary of this show. (To my recollection.) These devices are not unknown in film, far from it! But they generally don't happen when a film or show has already established trust that what it is showing you is what has happened. As this show has done.

[shapeshifter]

Just now, Milburn Stone said:

As to whether the cutaway to a recovering Katy was false...it didn't seem that way to me, and one of the reasons is that so far, neither the "false cutaway" nor "false flashback" seems to be in the vocabulary of this show. (To my recollection.) These devices are not unknown in film, far from it! But they generally don't happen when a film or show has already established trust that what it is showing you is what has happened. As this show has done.

Except:

3 hours ago, Tuggy said:

The way it was shown (no sound, a bit overexposed) made me also think that it was a lie supposed to make Davies lose his flow.

And even more:
The absence of sound and the grainy flashbacks we see as Charlie talks to Davis about Katy's anticipated comeback signal to me that Charlie's version of her hospital visit is repackaged to have maximum impact on Davis, who Charlie has come to see as "a fuckin' monster," who did try to kill her the night before. 
On a rewatch of that scene (at about the 44 minute mark) I think Charlie reframed what happened at the hospital just a tad.
What is a "good talk," really? as in:

• [CHARLIE TO DAVIS] as I was, uh, leaving town last night, well, I remembered that I, I had something of yours. [THE PHOTO OF HIS GRANDFATHER, BIG ED]
  You see, uh, when I saw Big Ed's smiling face on the workbench, well, I knew you never had any intention of gettin' in your car that day. Big Ed wasn't on the dash because you knew your car was going to crash and you didn't want the photo to get damaged. Well, that's some evil shit. You, my friend, are a fսckin' monster.
• [DAVIS] You should leave. It's not safe for you here.
• [CHARLIE] Yeah, I realized that last night. So today, I, uh, well, I quit the track, I said goodbye to Jean, and then I, uh, I stopped by the hospital. . . .
• [MORE DIALOG]
• [CHARLIE] . . . and then I had a, a good talk with Katy. Oh yeah. She's totally lucid. Sort of a miracle thing. That doctor's saying she's gonna bounce back fast. I tell you, the way this girl talks about racing, I finally got it. A month, a year. I don't know what it's going to take, but she'll be racing again soon. And she's comin' for you. It's just a matter of time."

These last lines of Charlie's👆 also echo Columbo's voice.
And Charlie describing Katy's recovery as "Sort of a miracle thing" could be a signal that Charlie is spinning a story, so if someone with her ability was listening, the fictional part would not register as a lie. Maybe Davis has a little of Charlie's superpower himself.

[Dev F]

10 hours ago, gesundheit said:

Maybe I'm overidentifying with Charlie here but I have to confess: if you asked me to name all the current (or event recent?) professional fighters in any genre of professional fighting? Manny Pacquiao is probably the only name I could come up with. (I have no idea if he's current, even, just that he's a known name even to people like me who are totally clueless about that world.) (I also had no idea he's Asian.)

That's interesting, because my assumption was exactly the opposite: that Davis and his mom were meant to be Filipino or part Filipino, so Charlie was making a knowing reference to his specific heritage rather than just assuming that all Asians are Manny Pacquiao. (It was mostly his mom who read as Filipino to me, which makes sense, since the actress is half Filipina, while the actor playing her son is apparently Anglo-Korean.)

59 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

As to whether the cutaway to a recovering Katy was false...it didn't seem that way to me, and one of the reasons is that so far, neither the "false cutaway" nor "false flashback" seems to be in the vocabulary of this show. (To my recollection.)

False flashbacks are actually a major plot point in "Time of the Monkey," when Charlie imagines a wrong, more innocuous version of the retirement home ladies' criminal past, seeing them preparing flower arrangements to protest Nixon and his cronies instead of bombs to blow up high schoolers.

[Cranberry]

10 hours ago, gesundheit said:

It's funny, one thing I was thinking about right before I started this episode was whether or not they'd ever give Charlie a romantic situation or at least a one-night stand in one of these episodes, and then that was the first time there was even a spark of anything! The show certainly doesn't need it but I do wonder if/how such a thing will ever come into play beyond this small bit.

She's rebuffed two people now: Marge in episode two and Davis here. I kind of like that her sexuality (and her attitude re: sex in general) is ambiguous.

[Milburn Stone]

47 minutes ago, Dev F said:

False flashbacks are actually a major plot point in "Time of the Monkey," when Charlie imagines a wrong, more innocuous version of the retirement home ladies' criminal past, seeing them preparing flower arrangements to protest Nixon and his cronies instead of bombs to blow up high schoolers.

Not sure I agree. The way I took that first flashback was that everything we were seeing in what appeared to be flower-arranging was filmically accurate. We just didn't see the additional information (until later) that it was actually bomb-making. In other words, if we interpreted that first flashback as mere flower-arranging--rather than the making of flower arrangements to be used in order to smuggle bombs into a building--then that was on us. (No disagreement that we were led to this false impression; nevertheless the images in the flashback itself were not false. Again, a re-watch could make me change my mind, but this was how I took it.)

Edited February 18, 2023 by Milburn Stone

[shapeshifter]

52 minutes ago, Dev F said:

That's interesting, because my assumption was exactly the opposite: that Davis and his mom were meant to be Filipino or part Filipino, so Charlie was making a knowing reference to his specific heritage rather than just assuming that all Asians are Manny Pacquiao. (It was mostly his mom who read as Filipino to me, which makes sense, since the actress is half Filipina, while the actor playing her son is apparently Anglo-Korean.)

When this👆 was mentioned upthread in a way I interpreted to mean that the Manny Pacquiao reference may have been culturally insensitive to use in the script, I looked at the context, expecting to see what you stated here, @Dev F, which I kind of, sort of, did (as you explained) but I was still hesitant to comment on it because I know I read remarks about my own ethnicity by others that are intended to be of goodwill but still manage to inadvertently offend me because of internalized stereotypes the commenters have absorbed from their families or society or media. 

But here I am talking anyway. I guess the teacher who used to make me write 300 times on the chalkboard "I will not talk in class" is just a few whisps of ashes now. 

So:
A bff from work whose parents were born in Korea once strongly corrected me when I declared that "I don't see color;"
she instantly replied a bit angrily: "Yes you do!"
I still cringe a bit when I recall that moment from years ago, but I also love her for saying it and how it altered my view of the world to make it more honest. 
——which is kind of what this series is all about:
Charlie being able to see people as they really are, 
——and, when Charlie confronts them with that truth, they sometimes become honest with themselves.
The bullshit filter is lifted. At least for a moment.

Anyway, I googled Manny Pacquiao, and his Wikipedia bio is a lot to unpack.
But I do agree that the reference was probably supposed to anchor that the Korean-Anglo actor was playing a Filipino/Pilipino role, and that the intent was sincere, but it really should have been either cut or unpacked more, and the fact that it wasn't points to the need for shows that have guest stars representing ethnic groups not typically on the show to get someone from that group who is an editor to read the damn script. </end lecture>

[paigow]

4 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Anyway, I googled Manny Pacquiao, and his Wikipedia bio is a lot to unpack.
But I do agree that the reference was probably supposed to anchor that the Korean-Anglo actor was playing a Filipino/Pilipino role, and that the intent was sincere, but it really should have been either cut or unpacked more

If she compared him to Sugar Ray Leonard, Apollo / Adonis Creed, Anderson Silva, Ivan Drago or Rocky Balboa - would that be more or less racist / problematic than M.P.?

[gesundheit]

2 hours ago, Cranberry said:

She's rebuffed two people now: Marge in episode two and Davis here. I kind of like that her sexuality (and her attitude re: sex in general) is ambiguous.

Oh yes, I'd forgotten about Marge, thanks for the reminder!

2 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

Not sure I agree. The way I took that first flashback was that everything we were seeing in what appeared to be flower-arranging was filmically accurate. We just didn't see the additional information (until later) that it was actually bomb-making. In other words, if we interpreted that first flashback as mere flower-arranging--rather than the making of flower arrangements to be used in order to smuggle bombs into a building--then that was on us. (No disagreement that we were led to this false impression; nevertheless the images in the flashback itself were not false. Again, a re-watch could make me change my mind, but this was how I took it.)

This was 100% how I took it and found it very clever. Not a false flashback at all, just not the zoomed-out, full-info "version."