S22.E13: Mammon (2023)

[WendyCR72]

Airing February 2, 2023:

Quote

When a graduate student is found dead, Cosgrove and Shaw follow the evidence to a suspect with no clear motive. Price and Maroun uncover a money-grabbing scheme within a church. McCoy warns them to focus on the suspects and not the institution.

 

[WendyCR72]

This case did not grab me.

If anything, my main takeaway tonight, such as it is, is that - to me - some filming angles made me think that Odelya Halevi/Samantha Maroun looked very similar to Annie Parisse/Alexandra Borgia. First time I ever thought that.

Shrug.

[Door County Cherry]

It didn't grab me either even though there was nothing that infuriated me.  

[Xeliou66]

This was a better episode than the past couple of episodes, I actually liked it pretty good - once again I enjoyed the detective work more than the legal work, the legal stuff wasn’t bad but I just find the detective stuff more compelling. The investigation by Cosgrove/Shaw was really good once again, I like watching them track down leads and uncover stuff. They play off of each other really well, and I liked Cosgrove’s cynicism with Pastor Mike and the church. It was obvious where the episode was going with Pastor Mike and company, but I still liked the detective work it took to get there. 
The legal stuff was decent, and I liked Price going after the church’s fraud, it was a good way to get around the clergy exception to the lead pastor testifying. What I was unsure of was why Jack had his panties is a wad over Nolan’s strategy, Jack himself has done similar stuff, that just seemed poorly written - Jack would understand why Nolan was doing what he was doing and would have his back it would seem rather than getting all worked up. It didn’t make sense to me why Jack was acting that way, it felt like conflict just for conflict’s sake.      
The ending of the OD wasn’t necessary and I hope Price saved the guy, that scene felt tacked on. 
So overall this was an improvement over the past few episodes with no glaring weaknesses, sure there was some predictable elements, and I once again liked the detectives part better than the legal part, but it was a solid outing overall.
 

[theartandsound]

11 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

The ending of the OD wasn’t necessary and I hope Price saved the guy, that scene felt tacked on.
 

My DVR cut off the ending right after Price called 911. I assume by what you wrote the episode ended shortly thereafter with no resolution if the brother lived or died, right?

[edhopper]

Him calling 911 and fade to black. They can never end the episodes with a win.

I did like that they had a judge who didn't rule on a ridiculous defense motion just to throw a curve to the DA.

[Door County Cherry]

57 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

The ending of the OD wasn’t necessary and I hope Price saved the guy, that scene felt tacked on. 

And predictable.  

But why was Price giving the guy CPR?  He was in distress but he was clearly awake. Don't you pass out when you're in cardiac arrest? 

[The Wild Sow]

24 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

1 hour ago, Xeliou66 said:

The ending of the OD wasn’t necessary and I hope Price saved the guy, that scene felt tacked on. 

And predictable.  

But why was Price giving the guy CPR?  He was in distress but he was clearly awake. Don't you pass out when you're in cardiac arrest? 

Right, who didn't see that coming?  I hope he got some Narcan fast!  Not really supposed to CPR a beating heart.

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The ending of the OD wasn’t necessary and I hope Price saved the guy, that scene felt tacked on.

I was expecting the OD scene from the moment the foster brother of the victim said the corrupt pastor had saved his life/was the reason he wasn't a junkie. Actually, I was expecting him to be dead.

 

7 hours ago, The Wild Sow said:

I hope he got some Narcan fast!  Not really supposed to CPR a beating heart.

Seriously. When Price called for an ambulance, I immediately thought a police car in the area with Narcan might actually get there in time. But then Price did say the word "overdose" at the end before the fade-to-black, which fits with the reboots habit of leaving loose ends for the audience to pick up and bandy about on social media.

The CPR seemed wrong to me too, but I suppose there was nobody there for Price to tell "No pulse!" and they didn't want to spend time on that with 911.
IDK. Lead actors don't get paid by the line, do they?

 

In a "real" church, I would expect the former senior pastor to have temporarily taken over the church while the pastor who ordered the hit stepped down for "personal reasons" before the trial.
IDK. Maybe after.

[storyskip]

35 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

I was expecting the OD scene from the moment the foster brother of the victim said the corrupt pastor had saved his life/was the reason he wasn't a junkie. Actually, I was expecting him to be dead.

The CPR seemed wrong to me too, but I suppose there was nobody there for Price to tell "No pulse!" and they didn't want to spend time on that with 911.

IDK. Lead actors don't get paid by the line, do they?

Given the history of dramatic "and then they died" final scene events in the reboot I expected the foster brother to be dead as well. Which makes me annoyed with this scene simply because I have to look at it from the perspective that "oh, they at least left it ambiguous ..." as being positive progress in the writing??

I agree about the CPR being a lazy way the director choose to convey the "dire" situation since Price didn't have anyone to verbal exchange "OMG DIRE SITUATION" with in the scene.  

I don't think lead actors get paid by the line, I think he gets paid in Pop Tarts.  Before anyone asks, I'm referencing an interview Dancy gave where he was asked if his children enjoy daddy working in NY and getting to go to the set with him, and he answered that they enjoy the Pop Tarts from the commissary. 

Seriously though, Dancy is very professional in his interviews and he obviously enjoys working with Sam Waterson and his castmates, but the impression I took away is he took this job because it was "home based" and something fun to do, not because he's expecting it to be ground breaking television.  It is pretty obvious that Dancy is more of the "stay at home" parent in support of Claire Danes' career. 

[shapeshifter]

10 minutes ago, storyskip said:

Given the history of dramatic "and then they died" final scene events in the reboot I expected the foster brother to be dead as well. Which makes me annoyed with this scene simply because I have to look at it from the perspective that "oh, they at least left it ambiguous ..." as being positive progress in the writing??

I agree about the CPR being a lazy way the director choose to convey the "dire" situation since Price didn't have anyone to verbal exchange "OMG DIRE SITUATION" with in the scene.  

I don't think lead actors get paid by the line, I think he gets paid in Pop Tarts.  Before anyone asks, I'm referencing an interview Dancy gave where he was asked if his children enjoy daddy working in NY and getting to go to the set with him, and he answered that they enjoy the Pop Tarts from the commissary. 

Seriously though, Dancy is very professional in his interviews and he obviously enjoys working with Sam Waterson and his castmates, but the impression I took away is he took this job because it was "home based" and something fun to do, not because he's expecting it to be ground breaking television.  It is pretty obvious that Dancy is more of the "stay at home" parent in support of Claire Danes' career. 

Thanks for this insights, @storyskip.

I couldn’t resist selecting the LOL😄 Like emoji for your comment both because “I think he gets paid in Pop Tarts” did make me crack a smile, and because the “Pop” in Pop Tarts is a fun pun in reference to the perk of the show’s convenient location for a "stay at home" Pop or Dad.

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

The ending of the OD wasn’t necessary and I hope Price saved the guy, that scene felt tacked on. 

That scene was a cheap shot at Price, I thought. He didn't need that kind of guilt.

Overall I thought this was a meh episode.

11 hours ago, edhopper said:

I did like that they had a judge who didn't rule on a ridiculous defense motion just to throw a curve to the DA.

I didn't like that they had a judge who kept nodding along with what Price was saying. That showed bias toward the prosecution, which a judge isn't supposed to do anymore than favor the defense. (Though of course there are judges who are known to do that.) It was distracting more than anything else.

I was glad they tried to give some nuance to the prosperity theology, though I personally give it a very heavy side eye.

Agree with everyone who thinks the law side of things is still pretty weak. Price and Maroun seemed stunned to learn the foster brother was a recovering heroin addict. Aren't they supposed to vet their witnesses? FFS.

[watcher1006]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I didn't like that they had a judge who kept nodding along with what Price was saying. That showed bias toward the prosecution, which a judge isn't supposed to do anymore than favor the defense. (Though of course there are judges who are known to do that.) It was distracting more than anything else.

I was glad they tried to give some nuance to the prosperity theology, though I personally give it a very heavy side eye.

Agree with everyone who thinks the law side of things is still pretty weak. Price and Maroun seemed stunned to learn the foster brother was a recovering heroin addict. Aren't they supposed to vet their witnesses? FFS.

Regarding the judge, I thought it was a reach for him to declare that the church was illegitimate and that the confidentially rules didn't apply. There are crooked church leaders for sure, but I wonder if that ruling would be grounds for appeal. It seems a very significant matter for a trial judge to decide.

[dubbel zout]

The judge didn't rule that the church was illegitimate, I don't think. Price used the argument that if the confession was about a crime, there were certain circumstances that the bond could be broken, which confessing to a murder fulfills.

[blackwing]

I agree with others that I didn't really care for this episode.  It was too predictable.  I still don't really understand the pastor's motive for having the woman killed.  Her brother donated all of his money to the church.  She confronted the pastor to try and get it back.  Pastor has her killed so she couldn't influence her brother into asking for his money back.  What?  I forget how much was actually donated but I highly doubt that recalling the donation was going to break the church.  Seems like a big overreaction.

Pastor was smug and I'm glad he's going down.  Hopefully Price gets the Murder 2, 20 to life he asked for.  Even though pastor's attorney asked for Manslaughter 1, 20 years max.  After the two sides disagreed, Maroun said she would start drafting a plea deal.  For which outcome?

Assistant pastor was smug too... I hope he gets some kind of charges against him for reneging on the deal.  And he was the actual shooter, he should go to prison for just as long as pastor, if not longer.

The ending with the brother ODing was also predictable, although like others, I expected him to be revealed as dead.  He clearly drank the kool-aid served by the pastor, and I guess he thought his life would have no meaning without the pastor?

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The judge didn't rule that the church was illegitimate, I don't think. Price used the argument that if the confession was about a crime, there were certain circumstances that the bond could be broken, which confessing to a murder fulfills.

I thought Price's argument was that the donations to the church were made in perpetuating a fraud, since the pastor was said to have told his congregation that they needed to keep donating money to fund the church and his lifestyle, otherwise they would be sinners in the eyes of God.  And that the church participating in fraud violated the sanctity of the pastor/parishioner relationship, which is why the judge agreed that the pastor emeritus could be forced to appear on stand and reveal the conversation he had with killer pastor.

[shapeshifter]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

The judge didn't rule that the church was illegitimate, I don't think. Price used the argument that if the confession was about a crime, there were certain circumstances that the bond could be broken, which confessing to a murder fulfills.

1 minute ago, blackwing said:

I thought Price's argument was that the donations to the church were made in perpetuating a fraud, since the pastor was said to have told his congregation that they needed to keep donating money to fund the church and his lifestyle, otherwise they would be sinners in the eyes of God.  And that the church participating in fraud violated the sanctity of the pastor/parishioner relationship, which is why the judge agreed that the pastor emeritus could be forced to appear on stand and reveal the conversation he had with killer pastor.

Yes.
Price convinced the judge that the crime of Fraud was being committed:

• [PRICE] The defendant concealed these cash contributions from the IRS and used the money he received to finance his opulent lifestyle. That is not religion. That's fraud.
• [JUDGE] I agree with Mr. Price. And since the defense did not rebut his claims, I am vitiating the clergy privilege.

 

 

4 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I still don't really understand the pastor's motive for having the woman killed.

They barely discussed the motive. I had to look it up in the transcript.
It came out when they offered the plea deal to the shooter, Sherman:

• [THE FORMERLY INCARCERATED REVEREND HENRY SHERMAN] Pastor Mike was nervous. Said that Emily was a problem. That we needed to shut her ass up.
• [PRICE] What did he mean by that?
• [SHERMAN] He wanted me to kill her.
• [PRICE] Why would he want to do that?
• [SHERMAN] She told Pastor Mike she was gonna call the police if he didn't return her brother's donation. Let them know what's really going on in the church.
• [PRICE] Is that some sort of secret?
• [SHERMAN] No. But Pastor Mike doesn't like paying taxes or going to jail, so he panicked.

Sort of the reverse of what happened with Al Capone.

[dubbel zout]

Just now, shapeshifter said:

14 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I thought Price's argument was that the donations to the church were made in perpetuating a fraud, since the pastor was said to have told his congregation that they needed to keep donating money to fund the church and his lifestyle, otherwise they would be sinners in the eyes of God.  And that the church participating in fraud violated the sanctity of the pastor/parishioner relationship, which is why the judge agreed that the pastor emeritus could be forced to appear on stand and reveal the conversation he had with killer pastor.

Yes.
Price convinced the judge that the crime of Fraud was being committed:

• [PRICE] The defendant concealed these cash contributions from the IRS and used the money he received to finance his opulent lifestyle. That is not religion. That's fraud.
• [JUDGE] I agree with Mr. Price. And since the defense did not rebut his claims, I am vitiating the clergy privilege.

This happened in court, though, right? When the senior pastor refused to answer Price's questions at first? I thought the initial ruling made, in chambers, was that because the pastor had confessed to a capital crime (or whatever the threshold is for breaking the seal of confession), the senior pastor had to get on the stand. Then Price was able to bring in the fraud stuff, as an extra reason to break the seal. The fraud wasn't the donations per se—people can give what they want—but how the money was being used.

I'm not arguing; I'm trying to remember what happened.

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I thought the initial ruling made, in chambers, was that because the pastor had confessed to a capital crime (or whatever the threshold is for breaking the seal of confession), the senior pastor had to get on the stand. Then Price was able to bring in the fraud stuff, as an extra reason to break the seal. The fraud wasn't the donations per se—people can give what they want—but how the money was being used.

I'm not arguing; I'm trying to remember what happened.

The detectives got enough evidence (bank accounts, phone calls, etc.) and corroboration from the assistant pastor and the victim's brother that the senior pastor had paid $50K for the assistant pastor to kill the victim because she was demanding the return of her brother's money or else she was going to the police, which allowed the detectives to arrest the senior pastor for murder, which is how he winds up on the stand.

A complicated crime can be riveting. 
Clearly this one was not.
I had to look it all up. 

Edited February 3, 2023 by shapeshifter

[MarylandGirl]

OK, I feel better that I wasn't the only one who kept zoning out in this episode. There were some good performances, but I guess it just felt too predictable. Or maybe I'm just tired! I don't like the ambiguity of the OD at the end--I imagine they won't reference it again. Unless he dies and Price has guilt issues about it that they'd choose to write in.

Also, wasn't there already another L&O episode with this same title, S15.12? I tried to look this one up on IMDB by title and was really confused by what came up.

Edited February 3, 2023 by MarylandGirl
adding a thought

[ripple596]

So she wanted him to give $40,000 back to her brother or she would go to the police. So he instead gave $50,000 to the other pastor to kill her?? Why not just give the brother back the $$ and he's still up $10 grand and not a murderer 🤷‍♀️

[WendyCR72]

3 hours ago, MarylandGirl said:

OK, I feel better that I wasn't the only one who kept zoning out in this episode. There were some good performances, but I guess it just felt too predictable. Or maybe I'm just tired! I don't like the ambiguity of the OD at the end--I imagine they won't reference it again. Unless he dies and Price has guilt issues about it that they'd choose to write in.

Also, wasn't there already another L&O episode with this same title, S15.12? I tried to look this one up on IMDB by title and was really confused by what came up.

I Googled, and you're correct! (So I will add the year to this one to differentiate.) Thanks!

[MerBearHou]

2 hours ago, ripple596 said:

So she wanted him to give $40,000 back to her brother or she would go to the police. So he instead gave $50,000 to the other pastor to kill her?? Why not just give the brother back the $$ and he's still up $10 grand and not a murderer 🤷‍♀️

This is a GREAT post!  

I really did not enjoy this episode.  

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, ripple596 said:

So she wanted him to give $40,000 back to her brother or she would go to the police. So he instead gave $50,000 to the other pastor to kill her?? Why not just give the brother back the $$ and he's still up $10 grand and not a murderer 🤷‍♀️

I didn't do the math while watching, but looking at it here, I guess we are supposed to assume Rev Mike figured if he gave back the $40K to the victim's brother, there was still a chance that she'd still go to the police about his tax evasion, so he figured spending another $10K to get rid of her once and for all was a "good deal."
On the OG L&O, that would have been spelled out in dialog.

[Route66]

I did not understand how they were able to ask the minister about his conversation. Even if it wasn't privileged due to his position as a clergyman, isn't it hearsay? 

[Raja]

17 hours ago, blackwing said:

Assistant pastor was smug too... I hope he gets some kind of charges against him for reneging on the deal.  And he was the actual shooter, he should go to prison for just as long as pastor, if not longer.

👍

In this case an ex convict who knows the system ambushes the state by a reversal in court. It is worse than the snot nosed kid who reneged and refused to show up in the social media producer case.

While telling them to thread lightly because of the politics of going after the church our detectives go to make an arrest during a church service, I mean come on.

12 hours ago, ripple596 said:

So she wanted him to give $40,000 back to her brother or she would go to the police. So he instead gave $50,000 to the other pastor to kill her?? Why not just give the brother back the $$ and he's still up $10 grand and not a murderer 🤷‍♀️

I would only guess that he feared that once the dam was broken others would hear about and come for a refund

[Raja]

8 hours ago, Route66 said:

I did not understand how they were able to ask the minister about his conversation. Even if it wasn't privileged due to his position as a clergyman, isn't it hearsay?

The entire history of the show's judges in such situations always went the other way as the defendant's rights as if he was speaking to a spouse is what mattered.  It seems to follow this season's template of having the trial judge make a decision to get to the final point and the L&O twist cringeworthy . 

[dubbel zout]

16 hours ago, Route66 said:

I did not understand how they were able to ask the minister about his conversation. Even if it wasn't privileged due to his position as a clergyman, isn't it hearsay? 

The senior pastor was told directly by the other pastor. Hearsay is "a report of another person's words by a witness," i.e., you saw someone tell someone else something, but you weren't a party to the conversation.

8 hours ago, Raja said:

our detectives go to make an arrest during a church service, I mean come on.

Ugh, I know. It was as bad as arresting that guy at a funeral in an earlier episode. Do better, Show. 

Edited February 4, 2023 by dubbel zout
accuracy is important

[Zaffy]

The other week we had a judge taking the most inexplicable of decisions favoring the defense, this week we have a judge that rules there is no confidentiality in confessions.. NY judges are nuts, right? Or is it just lazy writing? Both maybe? 

Add me to the club that knew the brother will probably be the main protagonist of a shocking finale, although I was leaning more towards him killing the mega rich pastor than biting the dust himself..

[dubbel zout]

But there are exceptions to confessional privilege, just as there are exceptions to other sorts of privilege. If the defense thought the judge ruled incorrectly, that would be grounds for an appeal. The mothership had a fair amount of that happen, but I doubt we'll ever see it today, given the shorter running time. They compress things enough the way it is.

[WendyCR72]

As has already been said, but I'll reiterate, one of the things that annoys me with the reboot is, we can't just end the episode after a verdict. There ALWAYS has to be some bad news or twist or whatnot.

Yes, the original series did this, too. But not EVERY EPISODE. And doing this so often lessens the impact.

[Xeliou66]

17 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

As has already been said, but I'll reiterate, one of the things that annoys me with the reboot is, we can't just end the episode after a verdict. There ALWAYS has to be some bad news or twist or whatnot.

Yes, the original series did this, too. But not EVERY EPISODE. And doing this so often lessens the impact.

I wish more episodes would just end with the characters at the DA’s office discussing the case after the verdict. There have been some episodes like this in the reboot but it does seem like they want to end episodes on a twist more often than they used to. I agree it lessens the impact. 

[wknt3]

On 2/3/2023 at 8:07 AM, shapeshifter said:

IDK. Lead actors don't get paid by the line, do the

No they get paid by the episode and only egomaniacs in the William Shatner mode worry about having the most lines. Actually if most lead actors are talking about lines in contract negotiations it's about limiting their screen time to avoid overwork (and paying guest cast less). There is actually a pretty well known story about this from the L&Overse. Vincent D'Onofrio had no experience as a series lead and it seems his agent did not have experience either although both had done a lot of work in the industry, So he never insisted on any limitations on his workload and it took a toll on his physical and mental health.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 6:23 PM, WendyCR72 said:

As has already been said, but I'll reiterate, one of the things that annoys me with the reboot is, we can't just end the episode after a verdict. There ALWAYS has to be some bad news or twist or whatnot.

Yes, the original series did this, too. But not EVERY EPISODE. And doing this so often lessens the impact.

 

On 2/4/2023 at 6:42 PM, Xeliou66 said:

I wish more episodes would just end with the characters at the DA’s office discussing the case after the verdict. There have been some episodes like this in the reboot but it does seem like they want to end episodes on a twist more often than they used to. I agree it lessens the impact. 

This smells like one of those adjustments for the modern audience that NBC was talking about when they announced the revival and were insisting that it would not be totally retro and would be like how the series would have evolved if it never went off the air. And they probably would have made them do more chases and big "twist" endings if the series had stayed on the air too. And we'd probably complain and have absolutely no impact as well. I'm doubtful that a show has been improved by NBC program executives' mandates/suggestions since Must See TV was a thing. I wish NBC would realize that there is nothing they can do that is going to bring in a younger audience and realize that a high quality "throwback" is going to do better both creatively AND commercially. I mean FFS the biggest thing on Peacock right now is Poker Face so I don't think old school L&O is too retro for modern audiences.

[Joimiaroxeu]

Finally got around to watching this episode.

So Dumbo is an area of Brooklyn. Learn something new every day. I thought that only referred to a cartoon elephant who could fly.

Right away I got a bad vibe on Pastor Mike. He was too slick on that prosperity gospel ish.

A guy can't pay his rent but he can give $40k to the pastor. WTAF. And yeah, he largely paid for his own sister's assassination. The guilt alone should've killed him.

That looked like a rather small church on the inside. Most of those congregants must've had tons of money to be able to support Pastor Mike at such a generous level.

A catamaran.  🙄

Why would the pastor have confessed to someone close to him? He likely would've gotten away with it if he'd kept his mouth shut.

NGL, I figured it was going to turn out that the pastor was running a pay-to-play gay swingers club in the church basement. The victim found out via her brother's involvement and was killed because she was going to out the "sinful" activities.to the parishioners.

[ML89]

On 2/3/2023 at 8:07 AM, shapeshifter said:

Lead actors don't get paid by the line, do they?

I think Donovan and Brooks are getting paid by the number of steps they run…

 

On 2/7/2023 at 9:07 PM, Joimiaroxeu said:

So Dumbo is an area of Brooklyn. Learn something new every day. I thought that only referred to a cartoon elephant who could fly.

Stands for “Down Under the Manhattan Bridge Overpass,” IIRC.  
 

Another sort of dull one - I still don’t like seeing the victim getting murdered.

What did she pawn to get her brother’s rent or was that what that was about? 

So I see Price is finally concerned about motive, considering the cases this year with no motive that he nearly lost…

I was really thrown by this being a Presbyterian church preaching prosperity gospel, that seemed really off and an odd detail. 

 

 

 

 

[dubbel zout]

9 minutes ago, ML89 said:

I was really thrown by this being a Presbyterian church preaching prosperity gospel, that seemed really off and an odd detail. 

Same. I was raised Presby but haven't been a churchgoer in years; maybe this is more of an evangelical branch?

[shapeshifter]

8 hours ago, ML89 said:

I was really thrown by this being a Presbyterian church preaching prosperity gospel, that seemed really off and an odd detail. 

8 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Same. I was raised Presby but haven't been a churchgoer in years; maybe this is more of an evangelical branch?

I only see the dialogue in the episode referring to the church as “First Harmony.” Not any particular denomination.

 

[ML89]

3 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I only see the dialogue in the episode referring to the church as “First Harmony.” Not any particular denomination.

 

It was on the title card "First Harmony Presbyterian Church" - of course, it's probably the usual nonsense that the title card folks get up to - like a murder in mid December in court by January 31st.

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I only see the dialogue in the episode referring to the church as “First Harmony.” Not any particular denomination.

2 hours ago, ML89 said:

It was on the title card "First Harmony Presbyterian Church" - of course, it's probably the usual nonsense that the title card folks get up to - like a murder in mid December in court by January 31st.

Interesting.
When I read the comments here, I wondered if the building where the church scenes were filmed is currently used by a Presbyterian congregation. 
If so, could that have made its way onto the title card?

 

[shapeshifter]

14 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

14 hours ago, ML89 said:

I was really thrown by this being a Presbyterian church preaching prosperity gospel, that seemed really off and an odd detail. 

Same. I was raised Presby but haven't been a churchgoer in years; maybe this is more of an evangelical branch?

5 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I only see the dialogue in the episode referring to the church as “First Harmony.” Not any particular denomination.

2 hours ago, ML89 said:

It was on the title card "First Harmony Presbyterian Church" - of course, it's probably the usual nonsense that the title card folks get up to - like a murder in mid December in court by January 31st.

Interesting.
When I read the comments here, I wondered if the building where the church scenes were filmed is currently used by a Presbyterian congregation. 
If so, could that have made its way onto the title card?

Or maybe someone ordered the title to have a generic church title and someone equally uninformed about either the plot or the denomination chose "First Harmony Presbyterian Church."

 

[MinorL]

On 2/3/2023 at 10:34 PM, Route66 said:

I did not understand how they were able to ask the minister about his conversation. Even if it wasn't privileged due to his position as a clergyman, isn't it hearsay? 

Thank you! I had the same question the whole time, and I’m a lawyer (though not a litigator)! It could maybe be used to attack the credibility of the pastor who recanted, but it couldn’t be used to prove Pastor Mike did anything. (I realize I’m super late to this.) Edit: I thought back to Evidence class and while it’s hearsay, I believe it’s  subject to an exception as a statement against self-interest. I looked it up, and I believe this would be the rule in NY. Probably too complicated to add that to the story  along with breaking the privilege.

Edited February 20, 2023 by MinorL

[ML89]

On 2/13/2023 at 11:30 AM, shapeshifter said:

Interesting.
When I read the comments here, I wondered if the building where the church scenes were filmed is currently used by a Presbyterian congregation. 
If so, could that have made its way onto the title card?

Or maybe someone ordered the title to have a generic church title and someone equally uninformed about either the plot or the denomination chose "First Harmony Presbyterian Church."

 

Sadly, from today's news, I think I have an answer - per the Washington Post:

"Presbyterian Church in America, a large conservative evangelical denomination" 

This must be something different than the old line Presbyterians? Or have they become that?

 

 

[Raja]

5 minutes ago, ML89 said:

Sadly, from today's news, I think I have an answer - per the Washington Post:

"Presbyterian Church in America, a large conservative evangelical denomination" 

This must be something different than the old line Presbyterians? Or have they become that?

 

 

A quick wiki search says the "In America" part makes them a separate second largest organization using the Presbyterian name. Mostly White and Korean but with significant numbers from Brazil, Haiti and others that could account for the Black congregation on the show.