S08.E08: Hunteri Heroici

[Demented Daisy]

Castiel decides to become a hunter, like Sam and Dean. But his first day on the job is a doozy when they investigate a series of murders caused by old cartoon gags. Meanwhile, Sam thinks back to his first time meeting Amelia's father.

 

 

Take out the flashbacks, and this is a really good episode, full of great sight gags and sound effects.  One of my S8 favorites.

[DittyDotDot]

I was so looking forward to this episode. The band was back together, cartoon silliness and hijinks and a great guest star...but in the end it just didn't work for me. I try to remember the parts that do work and ignore the stuff that didn't. Sam's flashbacks were strange to say the least. I still don't know why they spent an entire episode introducing us to Amelia's father when we still hadn't even met Amelia. There was more character depth in this one off character than I think we saw from Amelia in, what, 5-6 episodes.
 

However, I will always hold dearly that scene with the guy whose heart leaps out of his chest and the stuff with Cas and the cat is pure gold, IMO.

[catrox14]

HOLY CATS. Jensen is just so disgustingly handsome in this episode.  Jensen + White Shirts = OTP.

 

I LOVED the scene with Dean just doing his research and Cas sitting there just casually looking through Dean's things and his John's journal and Dean doesn't think twice about it as they chat. Only Sam and Bobby would be allowed to do that.  Then Cas blows up and Dean realizes he needs to just sit and talk to him. What a lovely bonding scene. I'm 100% shipping them after this scene. I also liked Mike Farrell here. He's always good.  And yes Cas talking to the cat is always funny.

[AwesomO4000]

One of my favorites of season 8 for whatever that is worth...

 

Though I agree with @DittyDotDot: Sam's flashbacks (as usual) don't really tell us much about Sam and Amelia, and they were just weird.

[rue721]

The cartoon stuff in this one was pretty good! It was also nice having a theme to tie everything together, it made the episode feel more of-a-piece. And I was delighted that the old people weren't actually blown to bits, it was just a really gory cake.

 

I actually didn't mind this set of flashbacks so much because, even though choosing to do a character study on Amelia's father was odd, at least the flashbacks had an arc/story to them. That made them seem more worthwhile to me than the previous flashbacks had been. And I actually did find it interesting watching Amelia's father interact with Amelia and Sam. Some things were well done, imo, like how Sam stiffened up when the father started asking him about Stanford and where he was working, and I really liked the moment near the end when sitting with Amelia's dad (imo especially because the dad was trying to be marginally welcoming and nice for his daughter's sake) was getting to Sam and making him think about/get kind of emotional about his own family. I actually wish they'd expanded on that, because that *is* something that can be a gut-punch when meeting an SO's family, and because it would have been interesting to go more into Sam's POV right then (since it's been by and large inexplicable up to this point in S8 imo). Another good moment was when Sam mentioned that his father had been a Marine, so of course Amelia's father made fun of Marines, and you could see on his face that Sam was pissed but forcing himself to keep cool. Looking back at that list now, I guess those are all acting choices on JP's part. Well good job! He sort of salvaged the Amelia SL in this episode for me.

 

The overall idea about how trying to escape into your own little world ultimately causes worse problems than just facing the consequences of what has happened is an interesting one, imo, but it's mostly interesting in the context of this show because the characters as a rule *don't* do that. Cas said he was going to try actually stepping back into Heaven by the end of this episode, but none of the other characters even seemed to have made a gesture toward changing. Dean wasn't saying that he was going to try to stop ruminating over Purgatory, Sam wasn't saying he was actually recommitted to hunting and had put Amelia out of his mind...And in general, they are all characters who *do* escape into their own minds and tell themselves the stories they need to.

 

It was just a couple episodes back that Cas made Dean re-watch what had happened when Dean went through the vortex out of Purgatory and Cas didn't go with him, and Cas even told Dean that he was remembering what had happened as being his own fault, rather than the truth (that it was Cas's decision), because how he "needed" to remember it was something that was his fault (i.e., he needed to believe it was something he had control over, even if that meant he was to blame for the failure, because if he had control over it he was more likely to be able to fix it somehow or at least it wasn't pure chaos, imo). That's something where Cas knew the truth, realized that Dean didn't remember the truth, and was in a position to literally change that by tapping Dean's head and remaking the memory. Who knows how other memories are twisted or changed in his head? Imo that was really interesting, because I find the idea of Dean being an unreliable narrator to that degree really interesting altogether (and I think would actually make sense based on some of the pretty extreme things he says, especially about himself). But I don't know if they've actually done anything with that since. Will have to think about it, I guess. And about other times when Dean might be being an unreliable narrator.

[DittyDotDot]

This is  a pretty good episode--far better than I remembered--and if we removed the flashbacks I think it could be best of show for the season. But, wait, we're done with the flashbacks now aren't we. For that alone, it makes the episode a stand out! ;)

 

I think they did a good job of walking that cartoony line here--there's just enough cartoon hijinks without them going too far, IMO. I adore the opening sequences of the episode. The couple is really sweet and awkward and the heart jumping out of that guy's heart makes me so very happy. Okay, I didn't mean it like that, sheesh. There's also some nice character beats and some really fun banter.

Edited January 4, 2015 by DittyDotDot

[Demented Daisy]

Something else I love about this episode is Sam and Dean working separately, but together, to save the day.  Being equals.  I don't know what else to call it.

 

And the ending.  It's really beautiful to me, with Fred listening to "Ode to Joy", just... happy.  

[Goldmoon]

Other than the cartoon stuff, I liked this one.  Which is odd because it is about cartoons.  Everything with Cas was adorable including the talking cat.  I loved how Dean sat and just listened to Cas when he was down.  Amelia's father saw PTSD in Sam, but I didn't think it was that obvious in Sam.  I know he's been through a lot of crap, but if Dad can see that in Sam in a short time, he would have a field day with Dean.

 

And poor Dean.  What other memories are skewed by his overactive guilt?  We saw what happened to Ellen and Jo, but I wonder if it seems even worse that it already was in his mind. Same for Rufus, Bobby, and Samuel.  Did he twist the facts about their deaths and take on even more responsibility for things he had no control over?

[supposebly]

This is the only episode where that Amelia stuff makes any sort of sense. And I really like Brian Markinson as her father. Unfortunately, at the time, I was still clinging to the idea that this was all some sort of hallucination, especially with all the soft filter stuff going on and her father saying she is living in a dreamworld.

 

Love Cas as inept hunter. And btw., bladder infections can be a sign of an affair.

 

Loved the exploding cake and Cas with the cat.

 

They should have run with Sam's speech to Fred at the end to explain what the hell he was doing. Using the return of Don as reality "punching you in the face" makes very little sense since Sam;s reality is Dean, not Don.

 

I love Sam's hair this season.

Edited April 28, 2015 by supposebly

[RulerofallIsurvey]

What can I say?  I love Looney Tunes, so I really liked all the call-outs to cartoons in this ep.  Made me smile every time from the holes to the anvil (although - Gross! when Cas lifted it up and bits of rent-a-cop clung to it.  That never happened to Wile E, did it?) to Dean saying Animaniacs.  :)  I especially loved how Dean was able to put his hand in the hole at the end.  I hope he actually went through it to the bank.  That would have made Dean happy.

So how long were Sam and Angry Lady together anyway?   Not long, from what I can tell.  She mentioned something about moving too fast - and they hadn't even completely unpacked at the house when she found out her husband was still alive.  Now the bright, soft filters of the Sam-backs really make sense.  Before I figured he was just being a little self-delusional and nostalgic.  Now I realize he was remembering his "dream world", so it makes sense that it wouldn't quite look real.  And I don't mean "dream world" there in a good nostalgic way, just as Fred's "dream world" wasn't really a good thing.  

I did feel sorry for Sam, trying to make such a good impression with Angry Lady's dad when he was being a total jerk from the get go.  Not even going to give the guy a chance when you know nothing about him?  Isn't it that he makes your daughter happy at least enough to give him the benefit of the doubt at first?  No?  Wow.  

I really liked that Sam did the dishes.  Le sigh.  If a man can't cook for me (my ultimate dream man!) he can at least clean up after I cook for him.

Sam's hair is actually looking pretty good the last couple eps.

Oh yes, Cas and the cat: LOVED IT.   

I still expected Naomi's eyes to turn black.

I had to go listen to Ode to Joy after I watched this ep.  :)

Edited June 22, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
I've been calling Fred, Don. I'm so sorry Fred. You deserve better.

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So how long were Sam and Angry Lady together anyway?   Not long, from what I can tell.  She mentioned something about moving too fast - and they hadn't even completely unpacked at the house when she found out her husband was still alive. 

It didn't seem like much time had passed after Dean disappeared and when Sam hit the dog. Sam goes straight from Amelia to Dean. So, I don't know it was ever stated, but it seems like it was a better part of that year Dean was stuck in Purgatory he and Amelia were together.

I still wish Amelia had been a dream. 

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I still wish Amelia had been a dream.

You and me both. Or a delusion - either way. But no, they kept trying to make that awful storyline a real thing.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

11 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

It didn't seem like much time had passed after Dean disappeared and when Sam hit the dog. Sam goes straight from Amelia to Dean. So, I don't know it was ever stated, but it seems like it was a better part of that year Dean was stuck in Purgatory he and Amelia were together.

I still wish Amelia had been a dream. 

Huh.  See, I thought that at first when the season started.  But with this ep, it seemed more like only a few months - hence the 'moving too fast' comment.  

So, I'm going to create my own false memories (like Dean did of Cas in Purgatory) that Sam drove around aimlessly for a several months before he hit the dog and subsequently met Angry Lady.  :)

9 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

You and me both. Or a delusion - either way. But no, they kept trying to make that awful storyline a real thing.

Unfortunately it is (was?) a real thing.  But just because it was a real thing doesn't mean that I can't once again twist my perception and convince myself that even though the affair actually happened, it wasn't all shiny sparkly wine and roses happy memories like Sam was reminiscing at first.  He was trying to convince himself that the relationship was better than it was.  But deep down, he knew it wasn't all that.  It wasn't what he needed or really wanted; he was just sticking his head in the sand and hiding for a bit.  I don't think either of them actually ever loved the other.  It was a rebound relationship for the both of them - never meant to last. 

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  :)

One more thing I really liked in this ep, was when Dean shot at the doc at the bank and the 'Bang' sign came out of the gun!  Lol!  I don't know how the actor kept a straight face.  That was perfect.

[DittyDotDot]

23 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Unfortunately it is (was?) a real thing.  But just because it was a real thing doesn't mean that I can't once again twist my perception and convince myself that even though the affair actually happened, it wasn't all shiny sparkly wine and roses happy memories like Sam was reminiscing at first.  He was trying to convince himself that the relationship was better than it was.  But deep down, he knew it wasn't all that.  It wasn't what he needed or really wanted; he was just sticking his head in the sand and hiding for a bit.  I don't think either of them actually ever loved the other.  It was a rebound relationship for the both of them - never meant to last. 

I agree Sam was definitely hiding away. And I agree, he had built the relationship up in his mind. Just the fact that it was Sam who found the house and moved them in, with what appeared to be little interest from Amelia, suggests Amelia wasn't as an active participant in the relationship. In some ways I think Sam was trying to recreate the life he never got to live with Jessica, but Amelia wasn't Jessica and Sam wasn't that college kid anymore. It would be rather sad and heartbreaking if this was S5, but it just didn't seem to fit who Sam was anymore, IMO. 

I just mean that I think the story would've been more interesting to me if it all been a total fantasy; Sam hiding inside his own head rather than it being so...literal isn't the right word, but I can't think of a better one right now. But literal seems to be the way Carver rolls, IMO.

[catrox14]

It was a full year that Dean was in Purgatory. The first episode of s8 stated that. So I think Sam probably met Amelia like a month or so after Dean went missing. They probably had their thing for about 9 months. That's my guess. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think Sam was trying to recreate the life he never got to live with Jessica, but Amelia wasn't Jessica and Sam wasn't that college kid anymore. It would be rather sad and heartbreaking if this was S5, but it just didn't seem to fit who Sam was anymore, IMO. 

I think this is one instance where binge watching is not giving me the same perspective as those who spent real years getting through the show.  :)  And I think someone else made that point in a previous discussion, but I can't remember who it was.  Right now, my seasons 5, 6, and 7 are kind of blending together and I can't distinctly remember too much (without looking up the episodes) about individual seasons/character growth in each one.  So for me, I don't think it would make much difference if this happened in S5 versus S8.

6 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I just mean that I think the story would've been more interesting to me if it all been a total fantasy; Sam hiding inside his own head rather than it being so...literal isn't the right word, but I can't think of a better one right now. But literal seems to be the way Carver rolls, IMO.

I've been thinking, thinking, thinking about this though.  We must be coming at this from completely opposite sides!  Cause I can't imagine how it would have worked at all if his relationship with Amelia would have been all inside his head.  I mean - like you said above, maybe back in Season 5?  But not now.  For one thing, that would hearken back to his hallucinating Lucifer too much, imo.  Secondly, I would seriously worry about Sam's mental state.  Having the Lucifer hallucinations was fairly understandable given his time in hell and then being soulless and the way his soul was shoved back in his body.  But to hallucinate an entire romantic relationship?  I would think that would have required a total break with reality.  (Almost like Fred, in this episode completely living inside his own head.)  Sam probably would have been hospitalized and sedated.  With Lucifer, he at least had Dean and then Cas to help.  But with Dean and Cas in Purgatory?  How would he have come back from that?  Even if he'd managed to make a break through only with modern day medicine and drugs, I would not consider him fit for hunting at all if it was only a total fantasy, because who's to say when he would slip back into his fantasy world inside his head again whenever reality got too much for him?   

(Argh!  Sorry, I don't think I'm explaining this very well.  It makes so much sense inside my head!  Lol! )

No, I can understand the reasons for the relationship as it was: his hiding away, burying his head in the sand.  It's not the healthiest response, but most of us have had that reaction a time or two about something in our lives.  I know I have.  And no, the problem doesn't go away and eventually you have to face it.  But at least there wasn't a complete mental breakdown along the way!  (only a little crack...)

And the good thing about it not being a total fantasy, is that (ideally) one learns from experience.  So that the next time something difficult happens, we don't bury our heads in the sand - at least for not as long - and we get to the business of facing the problem much sooner, which is better and healthier all around, I think.  So maybe - hopefully - Sam learned from this experience.

Edited June 22, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey
Fred, not Don. I don't know who Don is...

[DittyDotDot]

54 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I've been thinking, thinking, thinking about this though.  We must be coming at this from completely opposite sides!  Cause I can't imagine how it would have worked at all if his relationship with Amelia would have been all inside his head.  I mean - like you said above, maybe back in Season 5?  But not now.  For one thing, that would hearken back to his hallucinating Lucifer too much, imo.  Secondly, I would seriously worry about Sam's mental state.  

No, I don't think the fantasy could've worked back in S5. IMO, the real relationship with Amelia could've worked at the beginning of S5 when Sam kinda ran away from hunting. That's what he was basically doing in Free To Be You And Me, hiding away from his life until Lucifer showed up and reminded him he couldn't hide forever.

I'm just thinking that if Amelia hadn't been real, it could've bridged the gap with Sam's hallucinations in S7, plus would've helped with how TPTB were saying the theme of the season was perception.

But, they didn't go that route and I understand why Sam was doing what he was doing, I just think it might've been more interesting if it hadn't been so straight forward in the end.

[AwesomO4000]

25 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I think this is one instance where binge watching is not giving me the same perspective as those who spent real years getting through the show.  :)  And I think someone else made that point in a previous discussion, but I can't remember who it was.  Right now, my seasons 5, 6, and 7 are kind of blending together and I can't distinctly remember too much (without looking up the episodes) about individual seasons/character growth in each one.  So for me, I don't think it would make much difference if this happened in S5 versus S8.

Sorry that this is going to be long. I wanted to explain what about the situation made me come to the conclusions I did, and unfortunately for me, that's usually long. I bolded for those who are too long: didn't read...

I think that the exact point in season 5 where it would've made sense for me and been heartbreaking was right after the War (the horseman) episode where we see Sam leave the hunting life for a bit. In that case not because he wants to, because he still wants to fix what he messed up, but because he felt he had to, because of his addiction problems. And then Lucifer hits Sam right where it hurts... he comes into Sam's dream as Jessica. At that point I could very much see Sam running away - especially after Dean tells Sam that it would be better if they split up - and trying to recreate that feeling of safety he had with Jessica and hiding for a while. It couldn't or shouldn't have been as long an arc, because as soon as Sam would've had the chance to fix his mistake and get back with Dean again, he would've taken it, but for me that would have been the time if at all.

The main reason the storyline didn't work for me in season 8 was because of Sam's character growth in the second half of season 6 and through season 7 - which Carver wasn't a part of, so I think he opted to just pretend that it didn't happen. Sam in season 7 was fairly zen about his life, even when he had the Lucifer hallucinations. Sam even said on more than one occasion that he could have it much worse and he was at peace with how things turned out, considering. The only time Sam really panicked was when Dean disappeared... and he immediately did all he could to find Dean. That's why Sam's "screw it, I've paid enough, this isn't my problem anymore" attitude in season 8 didn't make much sense to me. It was almost opposite from what Sam said and did in season 7 where he considered himself lucky that he was only a little crazy and that hunting and saving people was what was important and made him feel like he had a purpose (or "normal" as he put it.) Sam also hadn't - at least not since season 1 - had the attitude that hunting wasn't worthwhile or important like he did in early season 8. That seemed to come flying out of nowhere.*

As early as late season 5, Sam said that he and Dean hadn't missed anything by not having the white picket fence ("Swap Meat"), and seemed to have zero interest in that kind of life anymore. Sam repeated that consensus in season 6 in "The French Mistake," along with being adamant that he wanted to make a difference - through hunting. So I guess the biggest problem for me was less that the Amelia thing happened and more that the narrative seemed to insist this was somehow a desire of Sam's all along and on top of that something he'd never had - which Jessica, so no - and didn't bother to show how Sam arrived at this renewed desire to have "normal" again and that hunting wasn't something that made a difference even though Sam had scoffed at wanting normal and asserted that hunting was important for at least two and a half seasons previously.

* And I can hardly ever think of that expression without hearing Spike in my head saying to Buffy after she brings him her mother and sister to look after "Well, isn't this a boatload of manly responsibility to come flying out of nowhere."

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

  But to hallucinate an entire romantic relationship?  I would think that would have required a total break with reality.

True, but then this would have at least been an understandable reason why Sam didn't look for Dean or Kevin and wouldn't have contradicted all of his character growth that I mentioned above.

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

No, I can understand the reasons for the relationship as it was: his hiding away, burying his head in the sand.  It's not the healthiest response, but most of us have had that reaction a time or two about something in our lives.  I know I have.  And no, the problem doesn't go away and eventually you have to face it.

The problem for me was that Sam hadn't really acted like this before when a whole lot of bad happened. Not even when Dean had gone to hell. Yes, he didn't act healthy then either, but he tried to save Dean and then he tried to kill demons and Lilith. If we are to believe that Sam was okay with Dean being gone as the narrative wanted us to believe, then what would Sam have to bury his head in the sand about this time when he hadn't before? That was the part the narrative didn't explain well for me. Also as for learning from the mistake...  

Spoiler

even later in the season, the narrative never paints the relationship as being looked at through rose colored glasses or as an escape. Even in a later episode, it seems to insist that Amelia was some epic love that might have been if only Sam didn't have other obligations, and has Sam waxing poetic on the relationship in that general vein. In my opinion, it was ridiculous.

[Dobian]

I'm glad the relationship with Amelia was real, though I could see the phone call from her "dead" husband coming from a mile away.  At least she gets to live, then.  Anyone in a relationship with Sam or Dean is a short-timer on this Earth.  And despite Sam's occasional protests to the contrary, he has always wanted to just live a normal life.  It's Dean who has constantly dragged him  back in with his "it's the family business" crap, the guilt trips, it's what dad wanted, etc.  The one time when Sam totally threw himself into it a hundred percent was in season six when he had no soul.  When Dean was gone in Purgatory and Sam didn't know where he was, I was okay with the flip being switched in his head and he finally just let go of things.  We're talking about an accumulation of shit across several years and that takes its toll.  You get to a breaking point where you don't want to deal with demons and monsters anymore, you don't want to spend your whole life driving around in a car, living in cheap motels, and eating fast food.  It wears you down.  If someone lived like that in real life they would look like they were 50 by the time they were 30.

[AwesomO4000]

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

And despite Sam's occasional protests to the contrary, he has always wanted to just live a normal life.

We will have to agree to disagree on this point. My impression was that Sam was pretty much over that by season 2. And Sam's comments on normal family life in "Swap Meat" were pretty unambiguous and harsh in my opinion. And as often as Dean dragged Sam back in, Sam dragged Dean back in just as often. Admittedly this was usually when Dean said that he was "tired" and wanted to give up not only on hunting but on living in general, but Sam's arguments to the contrary and that what they did mattered and made a difference - such as in "What Is..." seemed pretty genuine to me rather than Sam just doth protesting too much. But I understand that miles vary on that interpretation.

However I can agree on this...

3 hours ago, Dobian said:

We're talking about an accumulation of shit across several years and that takes its toll.  You get to a breaking point where you don't want to deal with demons and monsters anymore, you don't want to spend your whole life driving around in a car, living in cheap motels, and eating fast food.  It wears you down.

And would have been able to buy this storyline if the narrative didn't have Sam spouting stuff like he "wanted to make a difference" by living a normal life, implying that he never got anything out of hunting, and that hunting somehow wasn't worthy of doing. In my opinion that contradicted some pretty important character development for Sam, especially in the second half of season 6 when Sam was sometimes the one convincing Dean that their life and hunting was worth it. Such as in "The French Mistake" where Sam once again rejects the notion of a normal life saying to Dean when Dean suggested that Sam could stay in the alternate universe "No, you know, you were right. We just don't mean the same thing here", and in Mannequin 3  when Dean argues that all they do is make a mess, and Sam counters with "That's not true. We do save lives, now and again"**, and season 7 when hunting was what made Sam feel "normal" while he was going through his hallucinations. For me that was more than Sam just going through the motions and pretending / deluding himself that he didn't want a normal life. This was Sam coming around to Dean's way of thinking and actually telling Dean he was right about it. And it was a few seasons in developing spanning both the Kripke and Gamble eras (since it started in earnest in season 4 with the "Dad was right" stuff and Sam teaching "Adam" how to hunt while Dean protested.)

That's why for me Sam in season 8 was more of a reboot than Sam finally doing what he supposedly always wanted and/or snapping. I didn't buy the snapping scenario - as presented - because of Sam's all of a sudden negative attitude about hunting and implying that it wasn't important.The story didn't show enough of Sam actually "snapping," choosing instead to focus on the - for me - lackluster "romance" instead of showing Sam's mental breakdown and subsequent realization that the "normal life" he thought that he had really wasn't all that great either and was more something Sam was trying to force than something real. I think the narrative failed to show that well - in my opinion anyway. And I also didn't really buy Dean dragging Sam back into hunting either - there wasn't even an apocalypse to stop - so Sam could've just walked away.

But I also get that opinions vary and the my interpretation is just one way to look at it.
 

** Which is somewhat ironic, considering that in season 9, Sam

Spoiler

argues the opposite in "The Purge," saying that he and Dean just make things worse.

[Dobian]

I don't think they have a negative attitude about hunting, I think they both really believe in the value of what they do and that hunting gives them purpose.  But you can only deal with so much pain and death 24/7.  These guys don't get to live in a house in the suburbs, hunt from 9 to 5, then come home for a nice dinner and watch Jeopardy.  And golf on the weekends.  So as much as they are passionate about their job, there is also a lot of resentment because of the burden they always have to carry.  This isn't much different from Quantum Leap, where Sam got really burned out toward the end and just wanted to stop leaping, because he was mentally/emotionally/physically exhausted.

[GirlyGeek]

Finally a breath of fresh air!

And I can't even be mad with the flashbacks because I am finally getting insight into what the heck Sam is doing/feeling, etc!

Its about 8 episodes and a 1,000 Sam bitchfaces! and Sam bitterness too late, but hey, I'll take it!

I see now where Amelia gets her down right rude attitude and sour lemon look.  Her dad is a prince too.  But its through his words that we get a smidgen of insight into what the writers are trying to tell us about Sam.  I don't like it and I don't agree, but there it is.

Other than the FBs, I love this episode.  Funny, the brothers and Cas are more like earlier season's versions of themselves and Cas talking to the Cat is hilarious.  The cartoon deaths are endearing and funny, too.

[Hanahope]

Cas as a hunter was fun.  He could be very useful too.  The cartoon theme was fun too, a nice change of pace.

im done with these Amelia flashbacks.  Do they have any real point?  They just seem like a waste of time. 

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

im done with these Amelia flashbacks.  Do they have any real point?  They just seem like a waste of time.

You literally are done with them now! If I remember correctly, this is the last episode with flashbacks in it, so at least you know that's over. I wish I could tell you the worst was over, but I kinda loathe some of what's yet to come. Bet you can't believe I dislike it more than this Amelia nonsense, can you? ;)

Anyway, did they have a point or were they a waste of time? I guess I'd say yes to both. They didn't really tell us anything Sam hadn't already told us, but did show us what Sam was up to for the last year. So, while a waste of time, I guess they did have a point; an unnecessary, irritating, nonsensical and annoying point, but a point none-the-less. ;)

Edited August 1, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[DeeDee79]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

So, while a waste of time, I guess they did have a point; an unnecessary, irritating, nonsensical and annoying point

Such an accurate description!

[Hanahope]

On 7/31/2017 at 8:06 PM, DittyDotDot said:

On 7/31/2017 at 7:48 PM, Hanahope said:

im done with these Amelia flashbacks.  Do they have any real point?  They just seem like a waste of time.

You literally are done with them now!

I should have been more specific.  I'm done with Amelia!!!  Gah, she still shows up in more episodes.

[bettername2come]

I like that Garth has a safehouse boat. Cas found a case. "Sounds like our kind of thing, right?" Oh, he's been hanging out with them too much. And I love it. The thing about flashback Sam is that it makes me think it would be nice to see Jared play a nice, normal guy in a relationship because it's nice to see him happy in bright lighting with a dog. But it's just wrong for Sam. Too normal. "We'll have a slumber party, braid Sam's hair." Castiel is great this episode. "Your father had beautiful handwriting." "I'll interrogate the cat." Who thinks he's a dumbass. Fred the psychokinetic is an interesting twist. I always like when they help an old hunter friend of their dad's. In the prison, the mental hospital, the nursing home. It works every time. I like the thief that stuck up for Fred and got shot. Glad he didn't die. I had forgotten this episode went full on Space Jam near the end with Sam and Cas in the cartoon world. I love Fred coming to his senses and saving Dean. 

This is a good episode. Except for the flashbacks. 

[Iju]

"Dumbass." THAT DELIVERY LMAOOO

cass being so disappointed he didn't have a badge is making me LIVE right now. it's those moments they give to the audience that i want to yell at sam and dean, PAY MORE ATTENTION TO CASS!

speaking of paying attention to him, the sit down and talk scene with him and dean...i liked it. for the first time in a long time, i see the "best friends" part of them that was introduced into the show a long time ago. which makes naomi's manipulations even more angering. it's like this season is giving no break for any of the boys.

[The Companion]

I loved this one. It felt like the show again. Ridiculous and gory deaths. A fun mystery with a poignant ending. Great character moments. 

The eyerolling flashbacks are what they are. I largely ignore them. I think the season so far could have worked with some tweaks, and this has a similar feel to the Amy Pond story. Like one person had an outline for a story and had 5 people try to write chapters. Tonight's installment COULD have been part of a worthwhile story. Have Sam fall apart on the road while trying to figure out what happened to his brother. Have him find someone in an equally bad place. But the pieces aren't fitting. He isn't written as a broken man. They tell us he is. It's like Dean post hell. They tell us he was there 40 effing years but they don't show us thr trauma. I could have also gotten behind a story where he made her up. It doesn't work and it is even worse in flashback form shoved into other stories. 

I am gonna say one other possibly controversial thing. This season feels like somebody took over who doesn't get the fans. Like some asshole  looked at the demographics and said: we have a lot of female fans. Chicks dig tragic love stories. Let's cram some tragic love stories in there. Give me TWILIGHT.  Totally missing that the women watching this show are horror and sci fi fans. You have the star crossed lovers in heartache where he just can't stand that she will die someday. The truly horrible love triangle in Bitten with completely unrealistic views on love that sound like a middle schooler wrote them. The vampire who tried to avenge his love but she was alive (but now not pure enough to love). And then there is this overwrought dramatic Samelia story. Barf. Maybe I am too cynical. Maybe the point was about fantasy vs. reality. Maybe we are supposed to hate this relationship. Anyway, I have wasted way too much of my life on this. I am overjoyed that the flashbacks are done. 

The rest of the episode was fantastic, and I can overlook Amelia for the explloding cake, the talking cat, "What's up, doc," and all the rest.

[FlickChick]

1 hour ago, The Companion said:

I loved this one. It felt like the show again. Ridiculous and gory deaths. A fun mystery with a poignant ending. Great character moments. 

The eyerolling flashbacks are what they are. I largely ignore them. I think the season so far could have worked with some tweaks, and this has a similar feel to the Amy Pond story. Like one person had an outline for a story and had 5 people try to write chapters. Tonight's installment COULD have been part of a worthwhile story. Have Sam fall apart on the road while trying to figure out what happened to his brother. Have him find someone in an equally bad place. But the pieces aren't fitting. He isn't written as a broken man. They tell us he is. It's like Dean post hell. They tell us he was there 40 effing years but they don't show us thr trauma. I could have also gotten behind a story where he made her up. It doesn't work and it is even worse in flashback form shoved into other stories. 

I am gonna say one other possibly controversial thing. This season feels like somebody took over who doesn't get the fans. Like some asshole  looked at the demographics and said: we have a lot of female fans. Chicks dig tragic love stories. Let's cram some tragic love stories in there. Give me TWILIGHT.  Totally missing that the women watching this show are horror and sci fi fans. You have the star crossed lovers in heartache where he just can't stand that she will die someday. The truly horrible love triangle in Bitten with completely unrealistic views on love that sound like a middle schooler wrote them. The vampire who tried to avenge his love but she was alive (but now not pure enough to love). And then there is this overwrought dramatic Samelia story. Barf. Maybe I am too cynical. Maybe the point was about fantasy vs. reality. Maybe we are supposed to hate this relationship. Anyway, I have wasted way too much of my life on this. I am overjoyed that the flashbacks are done. 

The rest of the episode was fantastic, and I can overlook Amelia for the explloding cake, the talking cat, "What's up, doc," and all the rest.

Love all your thoughts on this one. This was a new showrunner in S8, but not a new writer in the series, and in fact had written for five years before becoming the showrunner. But I hadn't put the concepts you mentioned together - it just felt like a poorly written beginning period from all the writers. I, however brief they may have been, loved the purgatory flashbacks, and thought they should have had Sam figure out that's where Dean was and dumped Amelia and joined Dean, Cas, and Benny for a few episodes until they found a way out. What a missed opportunity...

[The Companion]

4 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

Love all your thoughts on this one. This was a new showrunner in S8, but not a new writer in the series, and in fact had written for five years before becoming the showrunner. But I hadn't put the concepts you mentioned together - it just felt like a poorly written beginning period from all the writers. I, however brief they may have been, loved the purgatory flashbacks, and thought they should have had Sam figure out that's where Dean was and dumped Amelia and joined Dean, Cas, and Benny for a few episodes until they found a way out. What a missed opportunity...

Perhaps it is a lack of clear vision from the transition or network interference, or maybe it is just a miss. Or maybe it is an assumption about what the audience wants. I just can't figure out how they thought this would be recieved.

I do feel like this episode brings the show back in line with what I expect from the show, Amelia notwithstanding

 Plus, I actually did get a little tickled when Castiel got heaven-napped and Sam had a flashback in the same conversation and you just imagine them staring off into the distance like they are AFK.  😆 

 

[gonzosgirrl]

Since flashbacks are the only Purgatory Dean we got, I savor them. And since I don't think it was 100% out of character for Sam to walk away, I don't have as much issue with that aspect of the story either. 

Spoiler

It's the back half of this season that rankles for me.

 

[DeeDee79]

8 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Since flashbacks are the only Purgatory Dean we got, I savor them. And since I don't think it was 100% out of character for Sam to walk away, I don't have as much issue with that aspect of the story either. 

  Hide contents

It's the back half of this season that rankles for me.

 

Spoiler

The emergence of the "guilty cheerleader" and Dean's storyline that was suddenly given to Sam? Yeah, I'm not too fond of it either. 😭

 

[rhofmovalley]

Mike Farrell acting circles around everyone, as per usual. No, I'm not saying Jensen, Jared and Misha are BAD actors. I'm saying Mike Farrell is fantastic. I wished we could have gotten more of him. 

[Katy M]

On 12/21/2019 at 6:57 PM, The Companion said:

Plus, I actually did get a little tickled when Castiel got heaven-napped and Sam had a flashback in the same conversation and you just imagine them staring off into the distance like they are AFK.

At least with the Cas/Heaven convo, I think time is stopped.  But, yeah, Sam is probably just standing staring off into space looking like a moron.