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Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"


Emma
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This poll is going to be so much better than the Captain Swan poll madness. Even if we lose, we win! I'm picking up a hashtag idea from tumblr: #we are all winners here.

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From Curio in the "Mother" thread:

 

It's nice that some of you have lowered your expectations enough to accept this drivel, but I'm still going to call out the writers, directors, and editors who are professionals at their jobs and need a kick in the ass to turn this show around.

 

But maybe they don't want to turn it around or even think it needs to be turned around? This is my point. After four full seasons, I think we have enough evidence that whether or not I agree with it, what is playing out onscreen every week is the show's vision. I've just gotten to the point that I can't continue to be angry because the show's vision doesn't match mine and I had to decide whether or not I could accept that. If I couldn't, it would have been time for me to let the show go.

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(edited)
If I couldn't, it would have been time for me to let the show go.

 

Which is what i'm going to do. I'll still watch the finale and will maybe check out the next season premiere depending on the next property they're going to butcher, but that's it. I'm sick of villain apology hour and more importantly of all-around atrocious writing. This season has brought us so many good shows, I think I can live without one bad.

Edited by FurryFury
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But maybe they don't want to turn it around or even think it needs to be turned around? This is my point. After four full seasons, I think we have enough evidence that whether or not I agree with it, what is playing out onscreen every week is the show's vision. I've just gotten to the point that I can't continue to be angry because the show's vision doesn't match mine and I had to decide whether or not I could accept that. If I couldn't, it would have been time for me to let the show go.

 

But here's the interesting thing—they've actually shown multiple times that they ​can turn it around. I wasn't the biggest fan of 2B, but it's clear the writers got the message about the audience not liking Tamara and Owen and they were immediately killed off in the premiere of 3A. It's also evident they heard the cries for more core character development, which 3A also delivered on. And lo and behold, I really enjoyed 3A. Then 3B comes along, it's a bit of a mess, but the 3B finale combined with most of 4A made it seem like the show was back on track. Again, another creative turnaround. But ever since the lack of emotional payoff from 4.11, the show has been incredibly inconsistent and infuriating. (In my opinion, of course.) So I think there actually is enough evidence to show that the writers analyze how things are being interpreted by the fandom and are willing to change things if need be. Only time will tell if 5A does a similar turnaround like 3A and 4A did.

 

"Once's quality is hugely variable." That's the thing that's so frustrating with this show. When it's good, it's great. When it's bad, it's awful. There's enough good to keep me watching every week (mostly out of loyalty to my favorite characters), but the only way I can stick through the bad times is to call out the mistakes and come up with suggestions to make it better. I'll gladly praise the show when it's doing great (see the recap I did of Snow Drifts over at TWoP), but I'll also give criticism where it's due. And lately, that's been a lot.

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But here's the interesting thing—they've actually shown multiple times that they ​can turn it around. I wasn't the biggest fan of 2B, but it's clear the writers got the message about the audience not liking Tamara and Owen and they were immediately killed off in the premiere of 3A. It's also evident they heard the cries for more core character development, which 3A also delivered on. And lo and behold, I really enjoyed 3A. Then 3B comes along, it's a bit of a mess, but the 3B finale combined with most of 4A made it seem like the show was back on track. Again, another creative turnaround. But ever since the lack of emotional payoff from 4.11, the show has been incredibly inconsistent and infuriating. (In my opinion, of course.) So I think there actually is enough evidence to show that the writers analyze how things are being interpreted by the fandom and are willing to change things if need be. Only time will tell if 5A does a similar turnaround like 3A and 4A did.

 

"Once's quality is hugely variable." That's the thing that's so frustrating with this show. When it's good, it's great. When it's bad, it's awful. There's enough good to keep me watching every week (mostly out of loyalty to my favorite characters), but the only way I can stick through the bad times is to call out the mistakes and come up with suggestions to make it better. I'll gladly praise the show when it's doing great (see the recap I did of Snow Drifts over at TWoP), but I'll also give criticism where it's due. And lately, that's been a lot.

Quoted for total agreement.

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SQ fans are salty with Lana because she said things supporting Sean and OQ in her Ask last night.

Really? That's just not reasonable. Sean is a coworker, and OQ is her job. What do they expect her to do, not say anything nice about either? How would that be good for onset relationships?

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So I think there actually is enough evidence to show that the writers analyze how things are being interpreted by the fandom and are willing to change things if need be. Only time will tell if 5A does a similar turnaround like 3A and 4A did.

 

I'm not saying that I don't think they pay attention at all but at the same time, the only widespread dissatisfaction I can remember seeing is 4B. Even if some people were dissatisfied with, say, 3B, other people loved it. I loved the Frozen fest in 4A but some of the comments I saw on the Facebook page proved that that wasn't a universal opinion. I fully agree that the writers do seem to nix pretty quickly the ideas that seem to be universally hated but I do think the ebb and flow of satisfaction and dissatisfaction hasn't necessarily been egregious enough to require a complete overhaul.

 

I also fully agree that Once's quality is variable but again, because I've been watching this show for four full seasons now, I've grown to expect that. That's another thing I had to decide whether or not I could live with.

 

I don't know, I guess I just feel like we're at a point where we know the problems the show has. I've found that there is a sense of liberation when I decided that I can't change the show, I can only change my response to it. So I focus on what I like and ignore what I don't. I'm a much happier fangirl that way.

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Really? That's just not reasonable. Sean is a coworker, and OQ is her job. What do they expect her to do, not say anything nice about either?

 

Yes. Reasonableness is not their strong suit.

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Lana likes OQ. *I* don't get it, but hey, it's her opinion. They are in denial and think she's secretly an SQ shipper. Um, no. This is the lady that, when prompted to explain the reasons why people may want Emma and Regina together, came out with "They're a blonde and a brunette... people like that?"

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Lana likes OQ. *I* don't get it, but hey, it's her opinion. They are in denial and think she's secretly an SQ shipper. Um, no. This is the lady that, when prompted to explain the reasons why people may want Emma and Regina together, came out with "They're a blonde and a brunette... people like that?"

Well, and even if she secretly thought Sean was horrible, and OQ was a disgusting mix of abuse and degradation, and Regina should be with Emma forever and ever--if the show isn't going that way, she still has to be professional, if she wants to maintain a good work reputation and good relations with her bosses and coworkers. Bashing what is essentially a big part of her job is highly unlikely to happen.

Do they seriously expect her to rant about Sean's cooties and thinking he should keep a 23 foot distance from Regina at all times? Like that would ever happen, even if by some quirk of fate they were right about how Parilla feels.

If she enjoys her coworkers and storyline, good for her. Work shouldn't make you miserable.

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(edited)

I'm not saying that I don't think they pay attention at all but at the same time, the only widespread dissatisfaction I can remember seeing is 4B. Even if some people were dissatisfied with, say, 3B, other people loved it. I loved the Frozen fest in 4A but some of the comments I saw on the Facebook page proved that that wasn't a universal opinion.

No, that statement isn't entirely true, since 2B had exactly the widespread dissatisfaction and, like with 4B, the plummeting ratings reflected it. History is repeating itself.

While 3A, 3B, and 4A all have detractors (especially 3B), you're right in that there wasn't a widespread general audience hate for them. Both halves of Season 3 were steady through and through, with various ups and downs but never anything serious except for "Bleeding Through" due to it airing on Easter, while 4A only lost its live ratings groove in the last three episodes while still doing just fine in DVR numbers (save for "Heroes and Villains"...that one seemed like a total bomb on all fronts: critically, live ratings-wise AND DVR ratings-wise.)

Edited by Mathius
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I fully agree that the writers do seem to nix pretty quickly the ideas that seem to be universally hated but I do think the ebb and flow of satisfaction and dissatisfaction hasn't necessarily been egregious enough to require a complete overhaul.

 

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Personally, 4B has felt like all ebb (dissatisfaction) and no flow (satisfaction). I even went in with lower expectations this season and I was still disappointed, but I also never expected that we'd have such a bad string of episodes all in a row. Usually, I can count on liking at least half the episodes in a season, but this time, I've only liked one out of nine that have aired in 4B. That's emotionally draining as a fan to sit week after week, continually being let down, even when you know what to expect from the show and prepare for the worst. And when I go in expecting the worst and I'm still let down? Something's wrong.

 

Even if the "complete overhaul" is just the writers agreeing to not do stupid retcon shit like an egg baby plot, agree to not bring in more than two new characters (and then not give those pointless newbies an entire centric), agree to flesh out the Charming family more, agree to take a chill pill and lay off on the Regina and Robin drama, and agree to give Hook more than a minute of screen time each episode, I'd gladly take that. (And honestly, based on 4B, all of those simple suggestions would actually seem like an overhaul at this point.)

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(edited)

To be fair, the writing for Black Widow was awful but I can't stand audiences who thinks these writers owe them something and when they do something they don't agree with they act like bullies.

Edited by mjgchick
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No, that statement isn't entirely true, since 2B had exactly the widespread dissatisfaction and, like with 4B, the plummeting ratings reflected it. History is repeating itself.

Yeah, I was going to say, I actually think most of the fandom was pretty dissatisfied with 2B. The reasons for the dissatisfaction were all over the place in 2B--whereas I think the dissatisfaction with 4B is more unified, for lack of a better term, people seem to be really disliking the same 3 or so things--but everyone knew the fandom in general wasn't happy with 2B. And as has been noted, there was clearly some course correction in 3A. I think we have to hope the same happens here.

 

(Interestingly, 2B and 4B had the exact same drop in ratings. S2 premiered to a 3.9 and sank to a 2.0 at the lowest, a loss of 1.9; S4 premiered to a 3.5 and sank to a 1.6 at the lowest, a similar 1.9 drop. Hopefully an omen that history will repeat itself on all fronts!)

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I think something similar to what's going on with the Once fandom happened. The new movie sank at least 3 different ships so there must be A LOT of shippers blowing up at him about it. And like the Once fandom, they do it in the name of "feminism".

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(edited)

Yeah, I was going to say, I actually think most of the fandom was pretty dissatisfied with 2B. The reasons for the dissatisfaction were all over the place in 2B--whereas I think the dissatisfaction with 4B is more unified, for lack of a better term, people seem to be really disliking the same 3 or so things--but everyone knew the fandom in general wasn't happy with 2B.

When you say fandom, you mean the entire audience who watches the show, right? Because that's what I was referring to: people in the "fandom" online may hate on 3A or 3B or 4A, but the actual general audience of casual viewers didn't seem to have a big problem with any of them. Whereas 2B and 4B are hated not just by the fans online, but they killed the interest and enjoyment among casual viewers too. Only 2B and 4B have made the ratings NOSEDIVE.

Edited by Mathius
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I think something similar to what's going on with the Once fandom happened. The new movie sank at least 3 different ships so there must be A LOT of shippers blowing up at him about it. And like the Once fandom, they do it in the name of "feminism".

For me it had nothing to do with ships. I think Joss just didn't know how to write Black Widow because ScarJo was pregnant. He has history of this.

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Whereas 2B and 4B are hated not just by the fans online, but they killed the interest and enjoyment among casual viewers too.

Most of the people I know who were casual viewers bailed during 2B. Then the last remaining holdouts bailed during 4B. I feel like the lone survivor among my friends.

 

What's interesting is that this is one of the top series on Netflix, which means there were probably new viewers this season who binge watched the first three seasons and hadn't watched before. That probably means that more "original" viewers have bailed than the numbers would seem to indicate.

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(edited)

I don't have real-life friends who watch this show.  Being a viewer is a secret of baby stealing proportions.

 

All kidding aside, I do have one.  But only one.

Edited by Camera One
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I used to watch this show with my best friend, but we both had to give up this half-season--it was too bad. A few of our friends watched during S1 but pretty much all of them bailed at some point during S2. I have another friend who I was chatting with recently who was marathoning the show, and she had just gotten to like mid-S2 and was like "wow, the show's quality just took a HUGE nosedive." I'm not sure she ever finished binging....

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Both 4B and 2B share that they're genuinely badly written. I think I get the themes that the writers were going for and how these various plotlines made sense in writer pitches, but they just weren't able to get the scripts together in a way to make it all coherent for us as an audience.

 

For the most part, I thought 4B was still a fun ride even if it was completely incoherent but the Zelena/Robin pregnancy storyline may be my one bit too far. I don't want to watch it, and I don't want Regina caught up in it. If the uniform negative reaction forces the writers to junk it in some way for s5, I'm sure I'll be back for whatever craziness we get, but I'll probably be out if the writers keep it as an ongoing. It's an extra shame for me because I liked Zelena, felt her story was truncated by Rumple killing her, and wanted to see her have a proper second chance. But not like this! 

 

It is fun to see all factions of fandom unite in dislike of the storyline, though, given how varied responses to story lines seem to be. Was this what Greg/Tamara was like in 2B?

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It is fun to see all factions of fandom unite in dislike of the storyline, though, given how varied responses to story lines seem to be. Was this what Greg/Tamara was like in 2B?

Oh man, YES. I can't describe how much those characters were loathed by everyone. The fandom might even have been more united in that than they are now!

 

I love how they got offed like ten seconds into S3. Adam and Eddie were like "MESSAGE RECEIVED, GUYS."

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Oh man, YES. I can't describe how much those characters were loathed by everyone. The fandom might even have been more united in that than they are now!

 

I love how they got offed like ten seconds into S3. Adam and Eddie were like "MESSAGE RECEIVED, GUYS."

 

It wasn't just the characters themselves, it was also the shady anti-magic "Home Office" with their can-do-anything tasers and anti-magic 'technology' bracelets. It was a weird Scifi swerve that was jarringly out of place and the audience collectively went....No. Just no. So the "Home Office" became Pan tricking them and it was never spoken of again. Hooray!

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I actually kind of liked the idea of Greg -- one of Regina's victims becoming an anti-magic crusader because of his experience, finally finding her again and feeling vindicated with the proof that magic is real, and that being a threat to Storybrooke. But it was handled so very, very, very badly that the interesting parts were completely lost along the way and there was no way to salvage it. And it's a shame that this screw-up meant that they can't really address those issues now because they were already raised and then dismissed.

 

I think the universal hate this time around comes down to the Zelena-as-Marian reveal and especially the Zelena pregnancy, with also a lot of nope around the concept of the Author as something that removes free will, and some irritation with the demonization of the heroes with the egg baby plot.

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I think the universal hate this time around comes down to the Zelena-as-Marian reveal and especially the Zelena pregnancy, with also a lot of nope around the concept of the Author as something that removes free will, and some irritation with the demonization of the heroes with the egg baby plot.

 

Yeah, that pretty much covers it. And I'm now just realizing I hate the egg baby plot more than Zelena-as-Marian, and that's saying something.

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For me the worst part of the show in 2B was not the Home Office but Neal and Neal/Emma which, coupled with Hook's loss of screentime (not that I loved him so much - but anyone would be better than Neal) almost made me give up the show. But still, the writing was not as awful as now. At least the show made some kind of sense and didn't feel like a daytime soap opera.

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the universal hate this time around comes down to the Zelena-as-Marian reveal and especially the Zelena pregnancy, with also a lot of nope around the concept of the Author as something that removes free will, and some irritation with the demonization of the heroes with the egg baby plot

This. Those are the three big problematic storylines we have: the Zelena-Marian-rape-pregnancy-Outlaw Queen drama, the Author-Sorcerer-Operation Mongoose-Regina's Happy Ending bullshit, and the Maleficent-Lily-Evil Charmings-Emma going dark nonsense. That they've become so interwoven with one another just adds to the frustration.

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Those are the three big problematic storylines we have: the Zelena-Marian-rape-pregnancy-Outlaw Queen drama, the Author-Sorcerer-Operation Mongoose-Regina's Happy Ending bullshit, and the Maleficent-Lily-Evil Charmings-Emma going dark nonsense.
 

 

I haven't seen universal hate for the latter two. I've seen more a general wish that the execution was better while still liking the broad strokes/potential of the plot and specific moments (of course, I've seen a lot of different ideas of what better execution would have been). I have literally not seen a single positive response to the Zelena pregnancy. At most, I've seen some Zelena fans and OQ fans express a kind of grudging acceptance and hope that it may end up working out (and one persistently positive reviewer like how the plotline has played out for Regina's character). 

 

but James Gunn (guardians of the galaxy) wrote a small piece addressing Whedon quitting twitter, and fandom aggression.
Why is everyone assuming Whedon quit Twitter because of fandom aggression? Maybe he just quit Twitter because he's never liked it that much (he's quit it at least once before) and he wants to cut down on social network chatter now that Age of Ultron is out. He's been very vocal about how exhausting making Age of Ultron was for him.
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(edited)

You're right. Apparently he says it wasn't the reason. I think that's a good article and response from him.

I have to say I've been disappointed by people I follow who are always the first (with good reason) to shut it down when people are being arseholes to Jennifer or the OUAT cast on Twitter, who have decided to respond by going "oh boo, a man got his feelings hurt, what a pity". Very disappointed.

Edited by Serena
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I think it's people like them who give feminism a bad name. Whatever his faults (I haven't watched AoU yet, but I've heard the criticism of Natasha's storyline and I'm very upset about it), Joss Whedon has done a lot for female representation in media in the past. Personally, I credit Buffy as my strongest role model when growing up. It's disappointing that some people simply forget or disregard all of it simply on the basis of his gender.

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I honestly don't know how anybody famous is active on or puts up with Twitter. I think Colin has the right idea about it -- he mostly uses it to tweet/retweet official show promotion or things he supports, with very occasional banter with official actors/writers.

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(edited)

None of the actors from the show interact much with fans anymore, unless it's a specific Ask time, and those aren't often. Can't blame 'em a bit.

Edited by Souris
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not that I blame him, considering the amount of crap he's had to put up with from certain factions

And then even the positive stuff is nonsense like marriage proposals, requests that he get naked, or annoying pleas to say hello. In his shoes, I'd set heavy filters so that the only tweets I ever saw were from people I know.

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True.  I notice he hardly ever interacts directly with the fans anymore (not that I blame him, considering the amount of crap he's had to put up with from certain factions).

I don't think he's ever really been that way though. It's not like JMo, who responds to fans and tries to push down the negativity. Remember her recent tweet in response to people giving her crap about drinking coffee? But Colin has never been that way. Even when he does his #AskColin tweets, he still only picks the innocent stuff. It's a bit annoying when he responds to someone else begging for him to say hello to Brazil or whatever, but he's never waded into the crap end of the pool like Scott or Adam. I think the closest he ever came was posting an article from someone else about how to ignore the negativity on Twitter. It's bland, sure, but I kind of don't mind. It lets me pretend he somehow doesn't see all the completely inappropriate and disrespectful tweets that are sent his way.

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I participate in some of these Ask sessions, but I only usually send one or two questions, and I don't send them over and over again to get higher visibility. If I don't get an answer, no big deal. But, it is awfully hard to get through all that noise, and I can imagine what it must be like from their end.

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I would never be able to handle the sheer volume of what they see on a daily basis, never mind in one of those Ask sessions. Chris Gorham has reply-retweeted me a couple of times (usually with a joke because that's kinda how he rolls :)) and my notifications exploded just from those single tweets! I'm the same way as OnceUponAJen with my tweeting habits, though. I send something once and if they see it, great. If they don't, it's not a big. I actually go into it expecting that they won't see it so that on the occasions I do get replies, it's a nice little surprise. :)

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I agree.  I think, too, that the cast and crew appreciate it when fans demonstrate that they understand the concept of boundaries and that these people are just that -- people who are doing a very difficult and demanding job and need what little downtime they get just to reconnect with the part of themselves that doesn't involve learning lines, spending hours in Makeup and Wardrobe, working 12-18 hours a day (and not always on the same schedule, either), and promoting the hell out of the show in every way possible, including doing live tweets during the show.

 

In other words, I just like to let them know that as a fan, I get it and I genuinely appreciate them for what they do.  If they want to acknowledge the message, great, but if not, that's cool, too.

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I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect that "official" twitter accounts have more ways to winnow things than us rabble do. Like maybe they get alerts when another "official" account tweets/tags them, but not alerts for general users -- because there's no WAY they could handle all those alerts on a daily basis.

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(edited)

 I send something once and if they see it, great. If they don't, it's not a big. I actually go into it expecting that they won't see it so that on the occasions I do get replies, it's a nice little surprise. :)

 

Sending the same tweet repeatedly as some stans do, sending large numbers of duplicate or unsolicited @replies or mentions can be considered spam, see Twitter rules. Not that crazy stans care. Makes it though easier to identify the stupid ones and block them if tired of them.

 

I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect that "official" twitter accounts have more ways to winnow things than us rabble do. Like maybe they get alerts when another "official" account tweets/tags them, but not alerts for general users -- because there's no WAY they could handle all those alerts on a daily basis.

 

There are some things one can do with professional (paid) Social Media dashboards, doesn't take a verified account to have some more comfort. Hootsuite (has a free and paid pro version) and Tweetdeck offer already some ways to handle things better. But indeed verified user have extra features on Twitter like notification filters. They have three options regarding notifications: all, mentions and verified. Another simple way to keep track just of the people you're interested in: disable alerts and only follow those you really care about, or use lists.

Edited by myril
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(edited)

So were the journalists trolling us or trolling SQ shippers when they promised the Greatest SQ Episode EVAH?

 

I guess they're feeling what CS shippers were feeling in 411.

Edited by Serena
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But this was a good episode for them. They are just mad that Emma dared to tell the man she's with she loves him and Regina will most likely not have time to help save Emma next season.

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I don't know this for a fact, but I suspect that "official" twitter accounts have more ways to winnow things than us rabble do. Like maybe they get alerts when another "official" account tweets/tags them, but not alerts for general users -- because there's no WAY they could handle all those alerts on a daily basis.

 

Official accounts have Notifications panels with four categories:

* All (you see everything you're tagged in)

* Tailored

* Verified (only posts from other verified accounts)

* People you follow 

 

The Web notifications options are the same as yours or mine.

  • Love 1
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