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Fandom and Viewer Issues: "Fan" Is Short for "Fanatic"


Emma
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For Once as a simple fans who follow how woman are not value enough in show business these days say nice thing about Once and A. and E. as showrunner.

My favorite thing about the show is the importance of the female  character and actress that play them.

I cannot imagine that someday Emma will be killed off without consideration or Snow and Regina for that matte. But it seems epidemic this season.

The unfortunately reality like this tv season show is that it's still rare that woman character and actress are valued as the male character or actor.

Always found it shocking and sad.

That's why even if I love Charming and Hook I am satisfied with their role as the love interest of strong woman.

Sure, I like when they get to shine and I want to see their characterdevelopment, but it is Emma, Snow and Regina who are at the front and that's alright because too often the female character are just there...  and even when we as the audience think their role in the storyare signicatif it turn out they can be killed anytime by the showrunner

So as read about the demise of the latest  female character I am  please to be sure that my personal favorite character Emma Swan will never be killed so cavalierly.

For once A. and E. Je vous lève mon chapeau

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When Ruby and Dirthy kissed you could almost hear a thousand bigots scream. Me I giggled in delight. I am not one of the people offended by the pairing. I am tickled.

 

Just spent a moment at the troll kindergarten known as IMDb message board. Always a fun place to go if you are in the good mood to just take it as hilarious stupidity what some are writing on there. Good for a laugh. If you're not in a good mood though, it's a place only to visit if you need some extra adrenalin kick and anger boost.

Edited by myril
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The bigots crying because two women kissed is the only positive thing I can say about Ruby and Dorothy other wise meh.

I agree with maryle that as sad as it sounds I trust A and E more when it comes to women. The problem with this show is how white it is. That is what I wished the fandom could rant about. Not how CS will probably never get a TLK or those disgusting bigots who hates different remember how they acted towards Lancelot and poor irrelevant Rapunzel? Seriously A/E did her dirty.

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KingOfHearts, on 18 Apr 2016 - 6:10 PM, said:

Well, if he can't ship Captain Swan because it's an abusive relationship, what other options are there? The one where the girl killed the guy's wife? I don't understand why people label Hook as a wife-beater type. I just don't. I think it's stereotyping.

 

Snow and Charming is the only relationship which comes to mind. I don't think anyone was betrayed, killed, used etc. Snow was unattached and Charming helped his fiancee get her true love as well.

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IIRC, Jared Gilmore really enjoys the Henry/Regina relationship, so that "man who abuses women" tweet is really funny when you take into account the fact that he enjoys his character's relationship with a parent who has abused multiple children, including her own son. Not that I would ever tweet that at him or blame him for liking Henry and Regina scenes, since I know he is very close with LP. 

Cracking up that one tweet read: "then swanqueen, the actual ship that includes you is not nothing for you?"

 

SQ "includes Henry?"  BOY, did that come out wrong!

I was majorly tempted to reply to that one. Sure, it came out wrong, but I've seen way too many people in both SQ and Swanfire list Henry as a reason to ship their couple. Same with Rumbelle and their new baby. It squicks me out so, so much. Yeah, let's get together just because it would make custody arrangements easier.  

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Well at least this intolerant petition only has 161 signatures.  The goal is 100,000.   Good luck with that.  Since only 28 people signed it between today and yesterday, the last laugh's on them.  I wouldn't click on the link unless you want your blood to boil.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/stop-abc-from-portraying-an-lgbt-relationship-on?utm_medium=email&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=thank-you

Edited by Camera One
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If someone has a problem with the show, maybe they should just not watch. You don't need a petition to do that. The ratings speak for themselves. After rape, murder, child abuse, spouse abuse, genocide, damning souls, and adultery, why is it LGBT that's stopping the "family friendliness"?

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I... am speechless. It's not just the rabid sections of internet fandom that start crazy petitions apparently. The GA has enough crazies to do the same. Calling ONCE a family show is just an excuse for their outrage. None of them teach moral values from this Show I bet.

Finally A&E managed to offend all sections of viewers. What rankles most is this LGBT romance was not even well written. I wonder if A&E were expecting this reaction from the GA.

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I remember last year with Aaron and Eric on the Walking Dead, when people would go online and write things like, "I let my 8 year old watch this and I'm so disgusted at you putting your agenda on my child." Yes, let's have an 8 year old watch throats being torn out, attempted rape, a woman getting shot in the head in close range, faces being chewed, a man having his head sliced nearly all the way off by a sword, etc. 

 

Even on this show, one of the first things I remember is someone being raped and having their heart ripped out. 

 

I worry for the mental health of these people, but I worry more for the pain they inflict on others due to their bigotry and rampant insecurities.

 

As for Swan Queen, I'd say it's in the same boat as Dean and Cas on Supernatural - if you are still watching the show at this point for that relationship, then you are acknowledging you have accepted that it will never happen. Once you acknowledge that, you can't get upset about other (fleeting) same-sex couples getting what your OTP doesn't. At least this show doesn't kill all its gay characters off...

Edited by Pete Martell
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Finally A&E managed to offend all sections of viewers. What rankles most is this LGBT romance was not even well written. I wonder if A&E were expecting this reaction from the GA.

 

I am convinced the couple was changed from Ruby/Mulan to Ruby/Dorothy because Disney expected this reaction.

Edited by Mathius
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That's exactly it.  These GA bigots could blame Disney and not invest in them or Mulan anymore as a result, so Mulan was swapped out for Dorothy.  You really can't even blame Disney here, it's smart business policy.

Edited by Mathius
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It could also be A&E simply thinking they've pulled another stunning surprise off--judging audience reaction is an anti-gift for them, even worse than math skills. Disney might have stayed out of it.

Edited by Mari
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I can only imagine how much worse it would have been if Mulan had been involved. Disney is also planning a live action movie, right?

 

I wonder if it has more to do with Disneyland Shanghai opening in June. One would think that Mulan would be a popular feature character in that park. Although the show may not air there, I'm sure they don't want any controversies about an actual Chinese legend and they would probably want Shang to be a character too. China can sometimes be pretty conservative although I have no idea what their view on this subject is.

Edited by kili
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It could also be that they want to have Mulan back next season and it is easier to do that if they don't have to either include Red or explain her absence.

 

The people commenting on Facebook don't represent the general audience. They are just more crazy fans like on the rest of the internet.

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As for Swan Queen, I'd say it's in the same boat as Dean and Cas on Supernatural - if you are still watching the show at this point for that relationship, then you are acknowledging you have accepted that it will never happen.

 

I'd never put OUAT in the same boat as Supernatural for pretty much any aspect of fandom.  Supernatural fandom has a pretty good sense of humor about their foibles and non-canon ships.  They seem to love the meta episodes that poke fun at them the best (like The French Mistake and FanFiction).  I live in fear at the shit storm that would erupt if OUAT ever tried something like that.

 

And I know that wasn't what you were getting at, but your left me an opportunity to digress :).  And here's another opportunity.

 

 

The people commenting on Facebook don't represent the general audience. They are just more crazy fans like on the rest of the internet

 

I was listening to a conversation the a while ago between people who I am sure are 'general audience' and have never seen a TV forum in their lives and they were talking about NCIS and Castle.  And they sounded just like the commentary in those forums.  Cracked me up.  I don't think internet and general audience are that different until you start venturing into areas geared towards trolling and truncating discussion enough that there is no real exchange of ideas/commentary.

 

And if its not clear, I've completely swerved from the LGBT discussion into general fandom. The hate towards LGBT community is uncalled for.

Edited by ParadoxLost
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I'd never put OUAT in the same boat as Supernatural for pretty much any aspect of fandom.  Supernatural fandom has a pretty good sense of humor about their foibles and non-cano ships.  They love the meta episodes that poke fun at them the best (like The French Mistake and FanFiction).  I live in fear at the shit storm that would erupt if OUAT ever tried something lie that.

 

I'll just say you've met nicer Supernatural fans than I have, and leave it at that.

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I'll just say you've met nicer Supernatural fans than I have, and leave it at that.

 

Well, that is probably true.  I don't venture into toxic environments.  I only learned about some of this non canon fandom stuff because I did a little get to know your fandom experiment one day.  I sorted shows on a fanfic site by popularity.  All I remember is learning that Wincest and Destiel is a thing, the SG-1 fandom is weirdly obsessed with making various combinations of the team kids and raised by each other, and TBBT fandom ships Sheldon and Penny.

 

These are all things that never crossed my mind.  Frankly, I found OUAT fandom varied enough that it was less surprising.

Edited by ParadoxLost
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One Million Moms wants OUAT taken off the air for having a "lesbian kiss". The same people criticized The Muppets for not being family friendly enough. They're demanding that T.J. Maxx, the department store, pull their ads from the show.

 

ABC’s “Once Upon a Time” introduced a lesbian couple during this week’s episode which 1MM and parents find completely unnecessary. On the other hand, the producers said the inclusion of homosexuality in a show popular with kids was “important.” Many families watch the program based on beloved children’s fairytales, but unfortunately, ABC has distorted and twisted the storylines in these fables.”

 

http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2016/04/one-million-moms-wants-once-upon-a-time-taken-off-the-air/

 

Because you know, fairy tales are wholesome, family entertainment that shouldn't be "twisted". They would probably boycott Grimm's if they read the book.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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As was to be expected, that group is known well enough for their stance on LGBTQI. Possible that the flood of disgusted commentaries on FB was their work, not fans but trolls with political intentions.

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Ah, the Million Moms. Such an influencial group, all hundred or so of them. It's clear that none of them even watch these shows, but I guess they need something to do to give their lives meaning.

 

I ran across a positive review of the episode written by a lesbian fan. Of course there were comments by someone objecting against the storyline because they watch the show with their 10 year old daughter. But, of course, murder, rape and torture are total family fare and perfect subject matter for discussion around the Sunday night dinner table with the kiddies. 

 

I think I first discovered what homosexuality meant while watching a sitcom back in the seventies. We had a babysitter that night, and I asked her, "What does gay mean?" She told me it meant when two men or two women kissed and hugged and/or fell in love with each other. Simple.

 

Dear bigot parents, it's not that hard.

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Makes sense that the response to the show was organized and not a spontaneous fan reaction, since so many people that I saw were saying very similar things.    They all hit the same talking points. Family show, watch with my kids, Adam and Eve, etc. 

 

Since the actual ABC Family channel has a show all about a family with married lesbian moms, I don't think they see gay as incompatible with family friendly, lol.

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I just don't get how they ignore rape, murder, child abuse but two women swapping spit is what did it for them.

Its so bad that I'm in support of Ruby and Dorothy out of spite. lol I'm still bitter about Mulan though.

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When I see fans complain about the show in social media (ships, characters aside), it's almost always about how it used to be better in arc x. But, when arc x was airing, they were complaining that arc y was better and that arc x was going downhill. There's this "#MakeAmericaGreatAgain" mentality that some time in the past was better, but no one can pinpoint a specific era consistently. It's a given that viewers will always find something to be negative about and that people just love complaining in general. However, at least in Once's case, I believe it's a side effect of lackluster content. Romanticizing is more enjoyable than the lack of excitement in the present.

 

I'm not saying 5B is bad, but for a while the show has plateaued in quality. Fans tend to threaten to quit watching whenever something happens they don't like. Though they normally tolerate the subpar writing, they use whatever happened as a sign of the times that the show is jumping the shark. Well, news flash - it already jumped a long time ago. If you're still watching at this point, I don't know what it will take to get you to stop. I guess if you're homophobic, lesbian kisses are the excuse du jour.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I don't fully get it. It sounds like an SQ fanfic writer turned their SQ fic into an original manuscript and published it. So apparently Jen had a copy and Lana didn't, and someone gave Lana a copy at the con today. I'm not sure where the controversy is -- maybe that Jen had it first when Lana is the bigger SQ supporter? I don't know. But Lana actually Snapchatted a copy of the book.

 

For me, I get squicked out by the idea of giving an actor a copy of a fanfic, even if it's a fanfic-turned-original fic. But at the same time, it sounds like the author got some hate for even publishing it in the first place, which I don't like. OK, sure, I'm still working on get my fanfic-turned-original published so I may be taking it personally, but why is it not OK for fanfic writers to turn their stories into original ideas and publish them? EL James did it (although the little I've read is complete crap). Rainbow Rowell did it. And there are plenty of professional writers out there who have written fanfic.

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Yeah, it seems that, according to Lana, so who knows if it's true, someone had given Jennifer a copy of that book but not to her. In SQ logic, Jenn having the book (that she didn't buy) means she totally ships SQ and hates CS, and that, because it's her favourite book ever, she is going to produce, write, direct and star in the movie adaptation.

Edited by RadioGirl27
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I'm not in publishing - no aspirations to become a writer - so mostly my reaction to these pull-to-publish fanfics is "meh". But I can understand people who don't like it. Their reasoning is: the fandom supported you, offered opinions and concrit, in exchange for a free product. Then you take the product away (sometimes without even publishing the ending!) and go "Now you have to pay for it!". It's a grey area. Fanfic writers who then go on to write another book and publish that are another story, however.

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Oh is that what it was? I thought people were complaining that Jen had a copy before Lana got a copy and it wasn't right for Jen to have a copy first or have a copy when Lana didn't or something such as.

 

And Serena -- There are people who pull it before they post the ending and then try to publish it later as original fic? That sounds shitty. I had mine up for several months and then thought, "You know, this is really AU anyway, and there are some crappy novelists out there. Maybe I can fix this up and get it published." Of course, I have since been rejected by several publishers and am seriously considering the self-pub route now to get it out there. But even pulling it felt a little weird for me at first. I've been writing fanfic for a decade now, and rules about crossing the line between fanfic-to-original fic have blurred quite a bit since I started out, especially with the advent of self-publishing. But even with that, I think I would feel totally embarrassed if Colin or Jen had a copy of a book I wrote that started life as a Captain Swan fanfic.

Edited by sharky
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I don't think id ever have the courage to admit I wrote a fanfic based on CS or Snowing or whatever else couple. I'd just publish it, hope I have the power that EL James currently has over Sony (where she will surely piss off the main actors who hated the first movie in the first place) and make millions out of it.

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I think a lot of the fandom anger about "pulled to publish" (P2P) fanfic is the sense that some, especially the more old-school, have that it violates the unwritten contract of fan fiction, that it's just for fun, not for profit. There's that disclaimer that generally gets put on top that says the characters and situation belong to the original creator, and that this is purely not for money. That disclaimer actually doesn't hold any legal sway, and the creators could still go after the copyright violation but generally don't because fan fiction probably works more as an advertisement than it takes away from the value of the original. But if a story is then published, the author is saying that it's original and is making money. Some worry that this will make rights owners crack down on fan fiction, since it draws attention to it and people are making money from it. There's also probably some jealousy at work there, along with the fact that the stories being removed, changed, and published means that this particular thing the readers loved is no longer available for free, and now they have to buy it, but it's no longer the same thing they loved. It's especially irksome if the author is talking out of both sides of her mouth (like EL James was doing for a while before someone came up with screenshots), claiming that the story was never fan fiction to the general public while counting on the fanfic readers to spread the word and buy the book.

 

But it seems that most of the backlash surrounds the writers who were celebrities within the fandom, the people who had fandoms of their own. Some of them have massive readerships, and in that large a group, you get the bad apples. Most of the negative noise is probably made by a few people, while the silent majority either doesn't care or has the "good for them, I wish it were me" attitude. And then there are the fandom celebrities who generated a lot of wankery and drama within the fandom, so the backlash about them being published probably springs from that drama and the sense that karma is on vacation.

 

Most of the pro writers I know who have written fan fiction didn't take their fan fiction and publish it. They wrote fan fiction for fun, then decided it was enough fun that they wanted to try original fiction, or else they occasionally dabble in fan fiction among their original stuff, as a hobby. There's also a lot of original fiction that was in part inspired by some other thing like another book, TV show, or movie but that was never actually fan fiction other than in the writer's head. It may have started with playing around with other people's characters mentally, but was never written in that form. I figure that if you're doing that right, no one would recognize the inspiration unless they knew something about the author's interests. Even there, you get the chicken-and-egg thing -- is it similar to this other thing because the author was inspired by it, or did the author like that other thing because it's the kind of thing she likes to write?

 

I still would be very cautious about giving a book with characters or situation inspired by a role an actor has played to an actor. Definitely not a filed the serial numbers off non-canon relationship fantasy. And definitely not telling them that it's really about their character even if the names have been changed.

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There's definitely a huge difference between something like 50 Shades or Shadowhunters, where the characters are clearly thinly veiled versions of Twilight and HP, and something like Outlander... I read the writer was inspired by some one-off Doctor Who character, but the story doesn't borrow/steal from it (other than both being about time travel, but that's general enough)

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I still would be very cautious about giving a book with characters or situation inspired by a role an actor has played to an actor. Definitely not a filed the serial numbers off non-canon relationship fantasy. And definitely not telling them that it's really about their character even if the names have been changed.

Yea, that's where I'm getting weirded out. The fact that this author is so excited that Jen and Lana have her book seems weird. Same with the fact that other fans are excited that the actors have the book. I think lines get more blurred when it's very AU like this SQ reworked fic or the one I'm still trying to edit -- to me, AUs have more leeway for something like this than a canon divergent fic. I also think attitudes have changed a bit about publishing fanfic-to-original in the last decade due to 50 Shades as well as the ability to self-publish and take control of your story. But I still would never give something like that to an actor on the show, and I would be mortified if another fan ever took a book I published and gave it to the actors or had the actors sign it or even just say something that would mean the actors would know it exists. That's just too much for me.

 

There's definitely a huge difference between something like 50 Shades or Shadowhunters, where the characters are clearly thinly veiled versions of Twilight and HP, and something like Outlander... I read the writer was inspired by some one-off Doctor Who character, but the story doesn't borrow/steal from it (other than both being about time travel, but that's general enough)

I agree. I think the more you can get away from the original source, the better. I think 50 Shades does that better than what I know of Shadowhunters. And of course, there's also the issue that both EL James and Cassandra Clare are problematic. Cassandra, for example, has been involved in a few plagiarism cases already and was a player in the whole Ms. Scribe fandom drama. But I think if you publish something in a respectful way and don't get an ego about heavily borrowing someone else's ideas, you can get much more good will towards you.

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Looks to me like an attempt to follow in the wake of E.L. James. I am somewhat amazed the author hasn't pulled the fan fic by now, it's still online. She is even advertising at the end now for her book, the first of a series, of course claiming, she wrote an entirely new story. Not sure if she did, if one could say so, didn't read it. But think someone is walking a very thin line there.

I get the old sentiment about fan fic being written purely for fun, but that was always more a sentiment in my view. Sure, many do it for fun, some use it as writing exercise, but as Shanna already pointed out, that doesn't solve the legal issues fan fic has. Fan fiction is on the verge of copyright infringement anyway any time, even when not monetarized. Amazon's Kindle World as arrangements with companies, and accordingly the work is limited there to a couple of fictional worlds, but guess "true" fan fic fans snub it anyway. As long as we all have to find ways to make a living though and are not yet in utopian Star Trek situation, where on Earth no one seem to have to worry about income, I find it on the other hand bit arrogant to get all worked up about people trying to make a living or add something to their income with things they like to do. It's great to have some idealism, but maybe the real problem lies somewhere else in this case.

 

Find it somewhat amusing, when people devouring a fan fic kinda TV show of Disney tale characters combined with other fairy tale/ fictional characters  and a few originals ones get a fit about someone trying to sell her "fan fic" inspired work.

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The latest logic of the delusional idiots is that since Jennifer has a production company now it means she's leaving at the end of 6A. BC you know you can't have any other projects going on while filming the show. Except JMO had so many side projects and still managed to have the most screentime in S5. But hey what do we know, we're not SQ shippers and for that I couldn't be more thankful. Because I would have to be so pathetic and desperate to watch a show I hate and not enjoy a single thing out of it aside from bashing Hook.

Edited by Hookian
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The latest logic of the delusional idiots is that since Jennifer has a production company now it means she's leaving at the end of 6A. 

 

LOL. I know the recent articles said she just launched her production company, but according to this site, she incorporated it all the way back in 2004. Not sure how legit that site is, but at the very least, she referenced it as being formed in the past tense in this 2014 article.

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LOL. I know the recent articles said she just launched her production company, but according to this site, she incorporated it all the way back in 2004. Not sure how legit that site is, but at the very least, she referenced it as being formed in the past tense in this 2014 article.

Aww don't show them this you're gonna rain on their parade that way,lol.

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She definitely didn't *just* form it, because she talked about it and Sun Dogs last year. I'm very happy that she was able to accomplish what she set out to do and is following her dreams, and I definitely think after OUAT ends she'll start focusing on directing rather than sign up for another long-running show. However, that doesn't mean she's leaving OUAT. She has a contract and she seems happy. She didn't even leave House when they were treating her like crap, why would she leave OUAT?

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There's definitely a huge difference between something like 50 Shades or Shadowhunters, where the characters are clearly thinly veiled versions of Twilight and HP, and something like Outlander... I read the writer was inspired by some one-off Doctor Who character, but the story doesn't borrow/steal from it (other than both being about time travel, but that's general enough)

Apparently, Outlander was inspired by Jamie McCrimmon, one of the companions to the Second Doctor (the Outlander character based on him even has the same name). Oddly enough, the actor who played him, Frazer Hines, was a guest at the convention where I was this weekend, and the subject came up. It was so weird because I'd just seen this in this forum the night before, and I'd never heard that story before, so that was twice in very different venues in the same weekend. Another famous fanfic origin of a novel was Lois McMaster Bujold's first book, Shards of Honor, which started the whole Vorkosigan Saga. It was originally Star Trek fanfic about a Klingon and a Federation officer stuck together after a battle. But it wasn't a rewrite of any actual Star Trek story, the characters were all original, and since this was pre-Next Generation era, before they fleshed out the Klingons (in more ways than one) and really developed the Federation culture, she did a lot of original worldbuilding. When turning it into an original novel, she did more than a search and replace for the terms "Klingon" and "Federation," since there was enough established of the cultures to support a long-running series.

 

I'm actually planning to use some of my own mental fanfic speculation on Hook's background (which ended up being very, very different from what they went with on the series) in a book, but I doubt anyone who didn't see me talk about it on this forum would recognize that it has anything to do with Hook. The physical description may end up being similar, but that's just because I have a type.

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1 minute ago, didia said:

All I saw was this.  Someone asked her who she would marry, kill or bed. Options: Emma, Belle and Ruby. She chose: marry Emma, bed Ruby and kill Belle. 

That seems entirely reasonable. I'd say the same. 

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There's no way to answer that question without upsetting some faction. Imagine if she had said she'd bed Emma. That would be baiting people more than the answer she gave, IMO. If she said she'd kill Emma that would unfortunately remind people of the early antagonism between Regina and Emma. 

I think the three options were chosen specifically so she would give the answer that she gave. 

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2 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Sheesh... how about just answering, "I love them all".  Though I suppose in a crowd of screaming fans, it's hard to say no.

She's usually pretty careful not to alienate her Regina fans, and the Swan Queen fans in particular.  Apart from "I love them all," there really is no good answer for that question.

(Although I think Regina would probably kill Emma, and marry Belle.  She could boss Belle around and put her to sleep when Belle was annoying her.  Belle's marriage wouldn't change a whole lot, and, well, neither would Regina's relationship with Robin--although substitute "hide in the woods" for "send to sleep.")

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