Fleishman Is In Trouble - General Discussion

[luna1122again]

8 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Toby seems to have serious food issues. He wouldn't eat the delicious-looking bread Seth bought after their night out, he ate a green salad without dressing at dinner while everyone else was eating pasta, and in another episode's flashback Rachel complained that he only cooked chicken and vegetable soup for her. I wonder how he finds the energy to work, take long walks around Manhattan, have sex with multiple partners, and put up with his kids, at such a caloric deficit.

In the book, it's maybe made a little clearer: he was a chubby kid, and his mom food and fat shamed him constantly. He literally refuses to eat carbs OR fats. I dunno how he has the energy either. 

Jesse E filmed a movie in my office building a few years back (movie stars in Louisville Ky are still something of a rarity, so it was super exciting) and I rode up the elevator with him a couple times. He's very thin (and pretty short. His Wiki says he's 5'7", I'm gonna have to disagree. If he is, then I'm almost 6 feet tall. I'm not 6 feet tall). Anyway, not saying he has food issues, he might scarf cheeseburgers and Hostess cupcakes for all I know, but he LOOKS like someone who never eats a carb. 

[Empress1]

On 12/2/2022 at 6:16 PM, Silly Angel said:

I keep hearing that men find the women on dating apps are either bots or sex workers or don't exist, so i have a hard time believing Jessie Eisenberg (no shade; I love him, but you know, we live in a world with Hemsworths) is getting a Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade of nonstop poontang.

On 12/2/2022 at 8:00 PM, DrSpaceman73 said:

Speaking with an average looking and even older doctor last year who was divorced, his experience was similar to that depicted on the show

I, an attractive real live woman who is not a sex worker and does not have an OnlyFans (so many men put “Don’t tell me to check out your OnlyFans!” in their profiles) am on two apps (I just got ghosted, sigh) and it’s rough out there. The ratio of single men to single women in NYC dramatically favors men. Toby is a doctor who is reasonably good-looking (he looks so young to me but JE is 39) and not outright disrespectful to women. I can buy that he gets that much attention.

(In my experience, divorced men are either sleeping around, enjoying their newfound single lives like Toby, or trying to find another wife because they want to be taken care of.)

Toby giving back the bread and saying he “couldn’t eat it” was the most direct reference to his food issues that I can recall, which as @luna1122again says, are made very clear in the book. I think in one book scene he orders, like, a bowl of lettuce - not even a salad, just lettuce.

(Don’t know how I bolded that quote; ignore.)

Edited December 9, 2022 by Empress1

[Milburn Stone]

I'm guessing the men's magazine is supposed to be GQ, based on Libby mentioning GQ as a competitor, which is what you do when you're worried that GQ will think your show is about GQ.

I'm more confident about my theory that Toby may not even be real, or is perhaps a "composite"; either way, a character in an article Libby is freelancing for GQ in her quest for the "breakthrough piece" that puts her on the map. 

[chocolatine]

3 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I'm guessing the men's magazine is supposed to be GQ, based on Libby mentioning GQ as a competitor, which is what you do when you're worried that GQ will think your show is about GQ.

I was too distracted by her going out of her way to not name Disney to pick up on that. 😂

[DrSpaceman73]

5 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I was too distracted by her going out of her way to not name Disney to pick up on that. 😂

Which is funny also because it's on disney+

[aghst]

Why does Danes always play these exhausting characters?

Rachel is like Carrie Mathison without the delusions of grandeur or megalomania, but instead driven by greed.

Toby has insecurities which rise to the surface when Rachel names Art Rothenburg.  The scene he imagines of them fucking while they both eat beef lo mein is hilarious.

Otherwise it’s pretty depressing even tHough he should have a career that he’s proud of, has strong beliefs and good friends.  But Libby and Seth are also unhappy though their problems don’t seem as bad to Toby because he’s all up in his head.

[Lone Wolf]

21 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I was too distracted by her going out of her way to not name Disney to pick up on that. 😂

20 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Which is funny also because it's on disney+

And here I was, just assuming that Disney's super-litigious and that's why she didn't name them.  I guess I've watched too many Simpsons episodes where their blue-haired attorney pops up:

  

I'd really like to check out a Vantablack exhibit.  I went down an internet rabbit hole on that product and it sounds like it would be amazing to be immersed in that level of light absorption in real life.

Otherwise I don't have much to add, positive or negative, about the show.  I expected it to be a more sophisticated Man Seeking Woman, which I watched when it was on FXX, and it more or less is.  I generally enjoy stories about single guys seeking love (being able to relate), and I like Lizzy Caplan (what a great narration she does), so I'll finish this one out.

[iMonrey]

I've been under the assumption that Rachel was dead until now. I thought maybe the friends who said they saw her napping in the park were mistaken and it was someone else. I guess not, since the desk clerk said she'd just gotten home. But I don't get why she would just abandon and ghost her own children like that. Her ex-husband, sure, but her children? It makes her look like the worst mother in the world. I admire how diplomatic Toby was when he finally told his kids. He could have laid it on thick how she just abandoned them like that. I think I might have.

Quote

I'm more confident about my theory that Toby may not even be real, or is perhaps a "composite"; either way, a character in an article Libby is freelancing for GQ in her quest for the "breakthrough piece" that puts her on the map. 

Toby's story seems suspiciously like the story in "De-Coupling" which is the book they keep referencing. At first I thought maybe Toby's story is just a book Libby is writing but now I'm thinking maybe it really is De-Coupling because otherwise her book would be too similar to De-Coupling. So maybe she's just reading De-Coupling which is why she's narrating. Then again it would seem odd that she's inserting herself into the story.

When they were at the pool, I wished that Toby could have just told Libby what he was thinking about afterwards: all the happy families were making him depressed. Besides, Libby's husband was visibly irritated that he was there with them. Toby could have just said "Hey, I don't want to cause any friction between you and your husband." 

[Anela]

So, he was mainly pissed that she disappeared, and cut into his brand new sex life. I'm almost finished with episode two. He sent his kids to camp - kids that he also chose to have - so that he could have a summer of fun and freedom. 

[circumvent]

I am watching this and I more or less like it. I agree with the other poster who said this is basically NY upper middle class, liberal (in the context of elitism and intellectualism) "crisis" - those people don't really know what problems really are. Too much drama instead of just getting to work and at least finding a way of solving them. They are all neurotic.

Having said that, I find some perts interesting enough that I want to watch. Go figure.

To address Hannah's brattiness: Every tween I know is exactly like that, more so if they are resentful of anything. Hanna is resentful that the parent's divorced. Plus, she is starting puberty, and the peer pressure is getting to her. She does not have any parental support, really. So, I am not mad at the kid, I think the character is very real and if you don't want to bee near her, welcome to my world. I never want to be near tweens. I guess they just made her look worse because all her scenes are her bad side. Maybe they will soften her a little from now on.

As for the narration being Libby, maybe it is because this is the book she will finally write, after two years of not doing what she said she would. Toby's speech pattern annoys me a little, so I am glad he is not the narrator.

[luna1122again]

I'm sitting on my fingers so I don't type out explanations I'm privy to, having read the novel. 

So I'll just say that I thought Toby handled the crisis at the camp very well (especially for him) and I thought the scene in the car, with the kids singing "Fight Song" was really really lovely. 

[Lone Wolf]

1 hour ago, luna1122again said:

I'm sitting on my fingers so I don't type out explanations I'm privy to, having read the novel. 

I'm enjoying the series enough that I'm going to order the book as soon as I finish the one I have going.  

Interestingly, Amazon has the paperback version for less than the Kindle version.  That's only about the second time I've found that to be the case.

[iMonrey]

Quote

s for the narration being Libby, maybe it is because this is the book she will finally write, after two years of not doing what she said she would. 

Maybe, but her book would be way too similar to "Decoupling," that book Christian Slater's character wrote which became more or less controversial, and I'd think she'd get sued for plagiarism. 

[AnimeMania]

S01.E06: This Is My Enjoyment

Toby tries to move on. Karen Cooper’s case comes to a head. Toby, Seth and Libby attend a reunion party. Libby reflects on her past.
Premiere Date: December 15, 2022

[DrSpaceman73]

Glad someone finally pointed put how self centered he has been. 

Feel bad for libby she seems depressed and I feared she may take her own life.  

There is a whole lot of 'the grass is always greener' going on between the three friends. Each wanting something the others have in their life. 

Wow Claire Danes friends are a bunch of drips.

[chocolatine]

Did Libby really see Rachel in the end, or was she just conjuring her up like she did the images of her younger self? Rachel looked really unwell.

[DrSpaceman73]

53 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Did Libby really see Rachel in the end, or was she just conjuring her up like she did the images of her younger self? Rachel looked really unwell.

I thought that was her imagining herself when younger. 

[chocolatine]

9 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

I thought that was her imagining herself when younger. 

Right, but at the very end of the episode we saw Rachel sitting on a bench across the park from Libby, holding a bagel and looking distressed. Which made me wonder whether that was a real, present-day Rachel sighting, or whether it was just Libby's imagination.

[SoMuchTV]

I haven’t read the book or otherwise been spoiled, but I’m more and more thinking that what we’re seeing isn’t the whole story. Unreliable narrator maybe? So I’m still watching but having trouble making any judgement so far. 

[juno]

This was my favorite episode so far. I really enjoy Libby and the path she is on. I also enjoy the three of them together. I thought Toby would be handing in his resignation and looking for a new job, so I guess he is handling it well compared to all the other issues he is fighting.

The 3 things I dislike about this series were in small doses. Rachel, the daughter and the flashbacks.

[HerkyJerky]

2 hours ago, juno said:

This was my favorite episode so far. I really enjoy Libby and the path she is on. I also enjoy the three of them together

AGREED!

[DrSpaceman73]

10 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Right, but at the very end of the episode we saw Rachel sitting on a bench across the park from Libby, holding a bagel and looking distressed. Which made me wonder whether that was a real, present-day Rachel sighting, or whether it was just Libby's imagination.

Yes I'm not sure

But either way I think we are seeing how Libby identifies with Rachel. She doesn't want a high powered job and the fancy things like her. But it's the loss of identity as an individual that occurs when you marry and have kids. She is now flaking off and ignoring her family much like Rachel did.

Toby on the other hand identifies with the husband. Going to parties you dont like with people you dont really know.  Being the responsible one taking care of the kids. 

Also with Toby's job 15 years and you're still not a division subhead?  I know it's a fancy teaching hospital but still.....seems like a long time. There can't be that many doctors specifically in non surgical hematology. Plus there are other teaching hospitals in New York city.  Lots of chances I would think. This is again where he is the 'traditional wife' role. Of you prioritized your kids over your job so you aren't that dedicates. 

[iMonrey]

Toby is really a crappy friend. I knew when Libby turned around he was going to be asleep.

The only good thing to happen is that the children seem to be adjusting to their new life pretty well. And Seth seems to be doing well, although he didn't say whether he'd gotten that job or not. Should probably be gainfully employed before popping the questions. 

So 2 more episodes? I'm still sort of baffled by what's going on with Rachel. 

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I'm still sort of baffled by what's going on with Rachel. 

It seems pretty obvious to me that she's having a mental health crisis. I just don't understand why that never occurred to Toby. As much animosity as he has towards her, he's still a doctor, so that should be something he would consider.

[SomeTameGazelle]

On 11/20/2022 at 9:32 AM, marny said:

As for Rachel, I’m just reminding myself this story is being told from the husband’s perspective and I don’t think he’s the most reliable narrator about their relationship. 

With Libby as the narrator, I suppose it is Toby's perspective filtered through Libby's perspective. I am only up to ep 3 (started watching because I saw a recommendation of the book in a list of "unreliable narrator" recommendations) and I am waiting to see how explicit that POV becomes and the degree to which Toby knows things he hasn't told Libby or by framing the story as Toby's Libby is concealing things she knows that he doesn't.

I really like the cast but because Jesse Eisenberg, Claire Danes, Lizzy Caplan, and Adam Brody were all so familiar to me as teen or early 20s characters it is a bit of a shock trying to take them in as middle-aged people even though I can see they are no longer as young as they once were (and it is even more surreal watching them portray their younger selves). Jesse's face seems pretty similar to his younger face and that makes his middle-agedness harder to grasp.

[aghst]

Ostensibly the show was about Toby.

So it’s kind of jarring when the focus of this episode was squarely on Libby, her discontent.

Earlier, she had given up her dreams, her career, when she couldn’t make the breakthrough, and they implied that she just fell into the role of housewife.

This episode, she’s regretful, being young, single, being desired, or having desire or this longing that she gave up once she married and became a mother.

You wonder if this narrative is mainly about Libby but she’s seeing her life or measuring it against what Toby has been going through.

[chocolatine]

44 minutes ago, aghst said:

Ostensibly the show was about Toby.

So it’s kind of jarring when the focus of this episode was squarely on Libby, her discontent.

Libby is the narrator, so I don't find the focus on her too jarring. It does bug me that she seems to be living vicariously through Toby instead of addressing the problems in her own life, but all of the characters on the show are deeply flawed and make bad choices, so at least that's consistent.

[Milburn Stone]

On 12/16/2022 at 2:23 PM, chocolatine said:

It seems pretty obvious to me that she's having a mental health crisis. I just don't understand why that never occurred to Toby.

Like you, I took Rachel on the bench to be real and not a figment of Libby's imagination, but this morning I'm wondering how the sudden, catastrophic mental health crisis of a big-time theatrical agent turned bag lady (basically Lin-Manuel Miranda's theatrical agent, during the period he has the biggest hit on Broadway in decades) wouldn't be in the news. Even New Yorkers who don't follow musical theatre would have heard about it.

[luna1122again]

Well, but it's only been a few days, really. And a mental health crisis can be a very private affair, unless someone creates some kind of public scene. Rachel sitting on a bench looking bedraggled or napping in the Park aren't THAT alarming, yet. 

[archer1267]

(nothing to see here)

Edited December 23, 2022 by archer1267

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, archer1267 said:

So many people have rough upbringings and difficult births.

Just because many women have difficult births, doesn't mean it's not traumatizing. Rachel was obviously very traumatized and depressed, even in Libby's POV, which is not 100% reliable because it favors Toby.

I haven't read the book, but my speculation is that it ends with Libby realizing that Rachel is not as cold and materialistic as Toby painted her.

[archer1267]

Quote

Just because many women have difficult births, doesn't mean it's not traumatizing.

Of course. I would have screamed bloody murder at that doctor for breaking my membrane, and I know that medical doctors often not taking women seriously is a very real thing.

My point is that life's traumas don't give people a blank check to be cruel to others. This could be the fault of the narrative, that it took so long to humanize Rachel, or the way Claire Danes is playing her, or the natural human reaction to not feel as much sympathy for wealthy, privileged people.

 

[luna1122again]

When Libby was sitting on the park bench and put in her ear buds and Aimee Mann began singing "Wise Up", I was dead certain that a singalong ala "Magnolia" was about to begin. I was more than a little disappointed when that didn't happen. 

[EdnasEdibles]

I'm divorced (been divorced 6 years) and I watched the first episode and HATED this show. I had no desire to watch a man use women as a never-ending supply of sex toys to make him feel less lonely instead of just getting therapy. I see these men all the time on the apps and I had no desire to sympathize with their story. But then I read some reviews and decided to stick with it and I'm really glad I did.  They really capture the loneliness of new divorce. The entire episode where he's so lonely that he goes to the pool with Libby but then feels like he doesn't belong there and then goes out drinking with his other friend --- but doesn't belong there either hit home in a major way. The early stages of divorce are very "One of these things is not like the other, one of these things just doesn't belong" 

The party was also incredible because I've had that conversation with friends where they're being stupid in ways that I know I was stupid at the end of my marriage and I'm like "Hey, don't act like that. Take a step back and just think and maybe get counseling and see if it can be saved?" only for them to be like "Oh I'm supposed to take marriage advice from YOU" 

Libby and her husband seem beyond repair at this point - there are all of these studies about a sign of divorce and endless criticism of each other is a big one. Libby's husband totally started in on her being a sour ass at Disney World in front of all of her friends. And then he just left and she stayed out all night and both had this air of indifference about how the other might feel about that. 

[iMonrey]

Quote

I know we're supposed to buy the notion of Rachel taking off here and there and blowing everyone off while she finds herself or whatever, but leaving your kids for WEEKS without communication, letting people assume the worst without a peep, is unconscionable! You don't get to treat people like that just because you can placate them with a Hamptons getaway or you had a shitty childhood or you're getting a divorce. It doesn't get you off the hook for basic human decency.

Yeah, this. Unless there's something we're simply not seeing, or the version we are seeing isn't correct, there's really no excuse for Rachel ghosting her kids that way. 

[SomeTameGazelle]

12 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah, this. Unless there's something we're simply not seeing, or the version we are seeing isn't correct, there's really no excuse for Rachel ghosting her kids that way. 

Agree -- but Toby's excuses for failing to confirm what the situation is seem really flimsy as well. It's not about whether he cares whether she lives or dies. He shares custody of their children with her and she failed to follow through on a specific plan to take them. According to Libby's version, all Toby did was call the yoga retreat (which refused to disclose any information) and Rachel's assistant who seemed to accept that Rachel was at the yoga retreat or at least to be covering for whatever spree Rachel might be on. In a normal situation he and the assistant should have worked out whether Rachel was actually missing and what they should do about it. Oh -- and he also summoned his lawyer to try to change the custody agreement. I forget whether he gave the lawyer a clear picture of what had happened but she neither set anything in motion to try to contact Rachel's lawyer nor advised him to report Rachel as missing. I don't think Libby or Seth have suggested it either. And Rachel's friends who saw her in the park seemed bizarrely complacent about the sighting.

I really hope that there are missing pieces that can make sense of both sides because it feels like what we have been shown isn't enough. I definitely did not buy into Toby's claim that he has been the only devoted parent and Rachel thought about everything including the children in terms of money and status. Certainly Libby's description of their devotion to Christian Slater's one-sided and misogynistic divorce book is giving me hope.

[EdnasEdibles]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

Yeah, this. Unless there's something we're simply not seeing, or the version we are seeing isn't correct, there's really no excuse for Rachel ghosting her kids that way. 

The only valid reason I can think of for her ghosting her kids is if she's really really really really in a bad spot. Like practically suicidal breakdown stuff where she might mentally think that her kids would be better off not hearing from her. That's the only mindset where I could sympathize with her. 

And I will say from the view of her at the park, she looked pretty dejected and bad so maybe that's what we'll see?

[aghst]

Why wouldn't she tell Toby then?

Say to him that it wouldn't be good for the kids to be around her right at that moment.

[AnimeMania]

S01.E07: Me-Time

Libby learns of previously unknown dimensions to the Fleishman divorce.

Premiere Date: December 22, 2022

[HerkyJerky]

I LOVE beef lo-mein! 🤣

[Milburn Stone]

23 hours ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

...Toby's excuses for failing to confirm what the situation is seem really flimsy as well. It's not about whether he cares whether she lives or dies. He shares custody of their children with her and she failed to follow through on a specific plan to take them.

But Toby believes he knows what the situation is. He believes that she is living with that a-hole Rothenberg guy and that she knows very well that she has abandoned her children and that this is what she intends to do--and that he therefore is powerless to change the state of affairs. He went to the guy's apartment, and his failure of nerve to actually knock on the door was based on his certainty that she was in there, not his uncertainty about whether she was or wasn't.

[DrSpaceman73]

Rothenberg is a selfish ass. 

Certainly understand her stress and problems.  She is in a horrible space. And Toby didn't really help her in their marriage. His idea of counseling seemed to be 'change in the way I tell you to' in order to save their marriage. 

Still not sure I buy her version of her as mom though and 'I'm doing all this for my kids'  that's typically an excuse 

But she is in a horrible psychologic state and didn't just flake off and ignore everyone. And Toby should have tried harder to figure it out but was too caught up in his own delusions about it. 

He did go over there to check on her though.  Was she in the park then?  Or hiding in the apartment and ignored him?  I don't recall. 

I assume her office checked on her too and she was just too out of it to remember. 

[sandwoman]

The tragedy of Rachel is that she was incapable of asking for help and everyone around was incapable of seeing that she needed help. I watched the episode late last night and couldn't sleep it was so upsetting. I think the key thing is that, like Libby says in her VO, life doesn't have heroes or villains. Both Toby and Rachel are flawed and both of them are going through a hard time. The thing that came across the most to me was Rachel's profound loneliness. I'm glad that Libby found her and they're showing women helping each other finally. And whew, Claire Danes is really amazing. I felt her pain so much. 

[DrSpaceman73]

4 minutes ago, sandwoman said:

The tragedy of Rachel is that she was incapable of asking for help and everyone around was incapable of seeing that she needed help. I watched the episode late last night and couldn't sleep it was so upsetting. I think the key thing is that, like Libby says in her VO, life doesn't have heroes or villains. Both Toby and Rachel are flawed and both of them are going through a hard time. The thing that came across the most to me was Rachel's profound loneliness. I'm glad that Libby found her and they're showing women helping each other finally. And whew, Claire Danes is really amazing. I felt her pain so much. 

The end with Toby saying 'sorry I've been going through a lot' or whatever made me want to scream 'f*** you toby!'

 

[luna1122again]

https://www.primetimer.com/features/claire-danes-fleishman-is-in-trouble-performance-review

[iMonrey]

Submitted for your consideration, I give you: Claire Danes' Emmy reel. 

Ok, this was an interesting reversal of POV where Toby looked like a colossal asshole and Rachel looked like the victim. Is this a "the truth lies somewhere in between" scenario or is one right and one wrong? Because both can't be right. 

There is one consistency between the two versions, though - which is that Toby really tried to get her to see someone and she refused. I'm not sure how much more he could have done. 

The birthing induction scene was horrifying, and I'm not even sure I understand exactly what happened. AND DON'T EXPLAIN IT TO ME. I don't want to know. 😦

[DrSpaceman73]

Yes this is the one thing about Toby not checking on her recently. He repeatedly tried to help her before when she was suffering and she refused. So he may have just figured this time why try to help?  

And he really didn't know she was this bad off. He thought she moved in with her new lover. She never told him she was suffering   She told her secretary/ assistant but didn't tell him anything directly. 

[chocolatine]

6 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

And he really didn't know she was this bad off. He thought she moved in with her new lover. She never told him she was suffering   She told her secretary/ assistant but didn't tell him anything directly. 

But there were clues. He's known her for almost two decades and in all that time she never missed a major work event or napped in the park in the middle of the day. His first instinct should have been that something was wrong, not that she was being a bitch. 

[sadie]

That was a brutal hour of television. As much as I’ve disliked the Rachel character, I was in tears watching that doctor violate her and then when she was at the support group and was just breaking down, the women circling around her was moving. The fact that no one, no one, in her life realized what was happening was tragic. When she went to that young playwrights house it seemed obvious this woman wasn’t well and they just seemed so cold hearted, it really shook me. Rachel had no truly close support system. The part where she’s lamenting that even bad people, ugly people, etc could find people who loved them but she never had that was just heart breaking to feel that unloved and alone. I’m really enjoying this show. 

[iMonrey]

I wonder why Rachel didn't sue that doctor for malpractice. She definitely seems like the litigious type. I guess we could assume she was too traumatized to deal with it rationally but that would have been my first instinct. There should have been a scene where she discusses it with Toby and he shuts her down by telling her the doctor technically didn't do anything wrong, or that suing the hospital might jeopardize his own job. Maybe we'll still get something like that.