S01.E10: The Black Queen

[Oscirus]

Just now, Sakura12 said:

Lol.

I'm sure Aemond will lean into being a kinslayer. If he wants to appear strong he'll have no choice. I'm sure Otto will be happy, I'm not sure about Alicent since she keeps flip flopping on whether she cares about Rhaenyra or not. 

Alicent will def flip out but I think people are beyond caring what she wants anymore.

[Cristofle]

19 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Daemon throttling Rhaenrya - was a 'huh?' moment for me, wtf? His motivation there went right over my head like a 747 - whoosh. Clearly it didn't bother her too much as they were holding hands later in the ep. #Iconfusion 

It was because he realized once and for all that his brother never trusted him, never would have allowed him to be heir. A delayed reaction to be sure, lol, it's been clear to the audience all along, but I think we saw a couple episodes back that Daemon did love his brother deep down, and this was a profound blow. Which of course doesn't excuse it - this is why Daemon and Rhaenyra are no true love story. But because she's twisted in her own way, I'm not surprised she basically just let it go. She saw in the moment why he'd snapped. Daemon is very scary when he loses control. 

22 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

If he did that on purpose, i wouldnt even be mad at aemond,Luke shouldnt have went for that kill shot 6 years ago. But of course we cant have good things so it was an oopsy instead. 

Oh, however it's done, Aemond has done a terrible thing that he had no business starting given the circumstances. Killing a member of his family - who was under a peace banner, no less - is a grave, grave crime in Westeros. It's a literal war crime. And to be publicly known as a kinslayer is even worse than Jaime was seen in GoT, regarded as the kingslayer. As Jaime said himself, it didn't matter how terrible Aerys was - they still never forgot or forgave or trusted Jaime again. No one else gives a shit that Aemond lost his eye several years ago - if anything, it means no one would believe him if he were to claim it was an accident. No one's going to give him a pass for that. Aemond was arrogant and careless. He's the same spiteful, stupid brat he was that night he tried to take on four angry, grieving kids at once. Anyone could have foreseen that his little game was easily bound to end in Luke's death - Vhagar was terrifying Arrax, and young dragons are erratic. We SAW him learn all those years ago that younger dragons have a harder time listening. Aemond is filled with the same malicious hubris he had all those years ago. He's learned nothing. Last time it cost him his eye. This time...who knows what it will cost him, but he's guaranteed a war. He knew it, from the look on his face in the end, but it's too late. His feelings are irrelevant. He killed Luke, and now all of Westeros will pay the price for his stupidity.

[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Lol.

I'm sure Aemond will lean into being a kinslayer. If he wants to appear strong he'll have no choice. I'm sure Otto will be happy, I'm not sure about Alicent since she keeps flip flopping on whether she cares about Rhaenyra or not. 

 I agree.

Would he be willing to admit that he lost control of this giant Mack Truck of a dragon?

[ShannaB]

Have to say that I didn't expect that ending.  Glad I wasn't spoiled.  I was  actually expecting Lucerys to die after he was sent on his mission but to have a young dragon fire out of fear and then the grande dame of dragons take a vindictive bite, well, damn.  Neither rider had control of their dragons in this situation and now there will be war because Aemond had to play his dark game.

I have to say that it looked like a battleship next to a tug boat with the dragon sizes.  Vhagar is immense and she does not tolerate young impertinent pups which means she has a mind of her own despite the will of her rider.

What dragon was Daemon wooing in the Dragonstone pit?  Laenor's?  

Is it 2024 yet?  

[Cristofle]

1 minute ago, ShannaB said:

What dragon was Daemon wooing in the Dragonstone pit?  Laenor's?  

No, far too big and old to be Seasmoke. I was glad to get the update that Seasmoke is chilling on Driftmark, but it's interesting that somehow, Laenor's dragon knew enough not to follow him. 

[peridot]

How on earth did that twin take Viserys' crown and make it all the way to Dragonstone with no one trying to stop him?  I was surprised that no one tried to stop him last episode in his shiny armor.

I didn't realize that Luke was only 14.  Aemond was seriously asking for his eye in front of a potential ally and tormenting him with a dragon?? Yikes.  His death was really sad, he was an earnest kid.  I loved his admiration for Corlys.

I didn't understand why Daemon was singing (in a surprisingly nice voice!) to the dragon at the end.  I still don't know which dragon belongs to who.

Otto is such a slimeball.  Everytime I see him ooze somewhere, I hope that someone kills him.  I was glad to see Rhaenyra rip his badge off him.

Edited October 24, 2022 by peridot

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Oh, however it's done, Aemond has done a terrible thing that he had no business starting given the circumstances. Killing a member of his family - who was under a peace banner, no less - is a grave, grave crime in Westeros. It's a literal war crime. And to be publicly known as a kinslayer is even worse than Jaime was seen in GoT, regarded as the kingslayer. As Jaime said himself, it didn't matter how terrible Aerys was - they still never forgot or forgave or trusted Jaime again. No one else gives a shit that Aemond lost his eye several years ago - if anything, it means no one would believe him if he were to claim it was an accident. No one's going to give him a pass for that. Aemond was arrogant and careless. He's the same spiteful, stupid brat he was that night he tried to take on four angry, grieving kids at once. Anyone could have foreseen that his little game was easily bound to end in Luke's death - Vhagar was terrifying Arrax, and young dragons are erratic. We SAW him learn all those years ago that younger dragons have a harder time listening. Aemond is filled with the same malicious hubris he had all those years ago. He's learned nothing. Last time it cost him his eye. This time...who knows what it will cost him, but he's guaranteed a war. He knew it, from the look on his face in the end, but it's too late. His feelings are irrelevant. He killed Luke, and now all of Westeros will pay the price for his stupidity.

In terms of consequences, you're correct.

But from a character standpoint, it doesnt  serve Aemond to be portrayed as incompetent as opposed to a bloodthirsty asshole that they were building him up to be

[Oscirus]

why was daemon counting seasmoke when he knows that laenor is alive? Maybe they're putting on a show for rhaenys but that doesnt make sense

[jeansheridan]

It's a good set up for season 2 but lacked finale energy in my opinion. Eve Best is a sly performer and I find myself not trusting her at all. Did you see her look at Daemon when he automatically counted Melyous in their dragon count. 

The labor porn was a bit frustrating.  And a missed opportunity.  I would have preferred to see a fully pregnant Rhynaera going to war at the end. This  fully pregnant mother who is seething with revenge. 

I think Daemon was reminding Rhynaera how fragile she is without the trappings of power. I think that was what the choking meant. That she needs to be a killer or needs to have killers on her side. It's why she married him. Six years of domestic life hasn't changed that reality. It's why Sansa needed Brienne for a while. It's why Arya became a murdering machine. It's why the Tyrells used poison (and the Martells). 

Which isn't to say diplomacy can't work but wow she blew it with Lord Baratheon. Otto totally outsmarted her and used his extra days well. She's not great with people unfortunately. And that's okay. She can't be perfect. And Emma still plays her just a bit timid other than the furious birthing scenes. She's not a Queen yet. 

I am all in for season 2.

[Sakura12]

1 minute ago, peridot said:

I didn't understand why Daemon was singing (in a surprisingly nice voice!) to the dragon at the end.  I still don't know which dragon belongs to who.

It was another unclaimed dragon. The second largest after Aemond's.

[formerlyfreedom]

Who was the third dragon leaving Dragonstone there towards the end? Was it Meleys?

[AntFTW]

8 minutes ago, Cristofle said:

Oh, however it's done, Aemond has done a terrible thing that he had no business starting given the circumstances.

This is Aemond's life story. This has been Aemond's thing since his introduction, doing shit he has no business doing.

[LanceM]

Just now, saoirse said:

Who was the third dragon leaving Dragonstone there towards the end? Was it Meleys?

Yes. Rheanys said she was going on patrol.

[Cristofle]

7 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

But from a character standpoint, it doesnt  serve Aemond to be portrayed as incompetent as opposed to a bloodthirsty asshole that they were building him up to be

I mean, I think he WAS bloodthirsty, but in a stupid way. LOL. Somehow, he apparently didn't see the OBVIOUS end result of his actions. So yes, it would probably more impressive if he was a ruthless sociopath instead of a stupid bully. Daemon 2.0 this boy is not. 

It really doesn't help that the actor playing Luke did look quite young, versus I don't know how old the Aemond actor is, but he LOOKS like he's pushing 30. It looked like a grown man terrorizing a child. I seriously don't think a single soul would ever believe him that he didn't do it intentionally, and I wonder if he'll ever bother to try with that claim. Maybe he'll decide it suits him better to embrace the kinslayer title, but Mr. "I'm a Better Choice for the Throne" just blew THAT all to hell. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by Cristofle

[jeansheridan]

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

But from a character standpoint, it doesnt  serve Aemond to be portrayed as incompetent as opposed to a bloodthirsty asshole that they were building him up to be

Can't he be both? Bloodthirsty and incompetent but learn from his terrible error? Then again why are we assuming people know what happened? It was cloudy, they were far away. People could assume but there are no eyewitness.  And if they were over water, no bodies. All they know for sure is Luke has disappeared.  Daemon of all people knows how to dodge a murder rap.

[SeanC]

7 minutes ago, peridot said:

How on earth did that twin take Viserys' crown and make it all the way to Dragonstone with no one trying to stop him?  I was surprised that no one tried to stop him last episode in his shiny armor.

Nobody last episode knew he had gone rogue, which is why he wasn't stopped. He's a Kingsguard, he'd be assumed to be on the king's business wherever he went (including into the king's quarters, which is presumably where he got the crown).

[Meredith Quill]

1 minute ago, jeansheridan said:

Can't he be both? Bloodthirsty and incompetent but learn from his terrible error? Then again why are we assuming people know what happened? It was cloudy, they were far away. People could assume but there are no eyewitness.  And if they were over water, no bodies. All they know for sure is Luke has disappeared.  Daemon of all people knows how to dodge a murder rap.

Seems obvious to me that those (including guards and servants) who were at Storm's End would put 2+2 together... and gossip.

[jeansheridan]

5 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

8 minutes ago, peridot said:

I didn't understand why Daemon was singing (in a surprisingly nice voice!) to the dragon at the end.  I still don't know which dragon belongs to who.

It was another unclaimed dragon. The second largest after Aemond's.

Matt Smith is so sexy when he is wooing a CGI creature.  And in Valaryian too.

[AntFTW]

9 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

It was another unclaimed dragon. The second largest after Aemond's.

I'm curious of who are they doing to get to ride the dragon. Do they have anymore possible dragon riders left of "flying age"? Maybe Rhaena?

Edited October 24, 2022 by AntFTW

[Cristofle]

Just now, jeansheridan said:

Daemon of all people knows how to dodge a murder rap.

That won't work here. As terrible as it is to say, Rhea wasn't nearly as important to the royal family as Daemon is. Aemond has caused the death of the Black Queen's son, someone at least as important as himself, if not more important. It's going to be the reverse of Daemon. No one will care what he has to say about it - they'll assume he murdered Luke and respond accordingly. 

[Constantinople]

One thing I'm not buying is that Corlys would support Rhaenyra after saying she was complicit in his son's death.

[magdalene]

55 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Daemon singing a lullaby to Vermithor tho, so cute. 

Not sure what the purpose was, but cute in a 'hit a bum note and you'll be incinerated' way.

He was courting Vermithor to be his side piece?

[Oscirus]

7 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I'm curious of who are they doing to get to ride the dragon. Do they have anymore possible dragon riders left of "flying age"? Maybe Baela?

Baela has a dragon, rhaena doesnt.

7 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

One thing I'm not buying is that Corlys would support Rhaenyra after saying she was complicit in his son's death.

Has no choice since his grandkids are betrothed to her sons

Edited October 24, 2022 by Oscirus

[The Kings Foot]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

Daemon throttling Rhaenrya - was a 'huh?' moment for me, wtf? His motivation there went right over my head like a 747 - whoosh. Clearly it didn't bother her too much as they were holding hands later in the ep. #Iconfusion 

55 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

Also not liking Daemon throttling Rhaenyra and trying to choke her out. Their relationship had actually seemed fairly normal, uncle-niece incest aside.

47 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Same. I was like "Ummm... I don't think he's allowed to do that."

Im reminded of what the Hound said to Sansa way back in GOT,

"Your father was a killer, your brother is a killer, your husband will be a killer and your sons will be killers."

Rhaenyra knows exactly who she married. A killer she has mostly under her control. 

Edited October 24, 2022 by The Kings Foot

[AntFTW]

Just now, Oscirus said:

Baela has a dragon, rhaena doesnt.

Yes! You're right. It was coin toss, and I went with Baela 🤣

[proserpina65]

That shot of Arrax from below when the lightning briefly showed Vhagar above him reminded me of the opening shot of Star Wars with the small space ship being pursued by the Imperial battle cruiser. 

[MrsR]

Well Aemond can't take it back, He's the only witness to what actually happened. The Baratheons can attest that he threatened Luke. So despite the fact that it was Vaghar's move and not Aemond's, he might as well claim it.  That way he looks like he's in control and a badass.

[The Kings Foot]

42 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

My boo Aemond done fucked up.  Still, how cool was that sapphire?  (Yeah, yeah, evil person, going to hell.  Whatever, I don't care.  Not the first time I've rooted for the villain and probably not the last either.)

I got mixed thoughts on that. yeah it looks cool but it also looks very Japanese anime. 

[scarynikki12]

Luke's death was so sad. I was begging him to fly close to the water rather than risk meeting Vhagar in open sky. 

The impression I had of the chase was Aemond was doing what Rhaenys did last episode and just wanted to scare the Blacks by letting them know just how close he came to killing Luke. Only he's not as bonded to Vhagar as he thought and now he's a known kinslayer. No one will believe him if he tries to explain he only wanted to scare Luke and tried to stop Vhagar because the fact is she ate Luke and ripped Arrax in two. Aemond had just shouted for Luke to take out his own eye in the presence of Baratheon witnesses and had to be told to stand down. For the rest of his life Aemond is a kinslayer and that's a bad thing in this world.

Here's my take on Baratheon's tantrum about Luke not coming with gifts or offers: if he were truly honorable his oath would be enough. When he took over for his father he presumably was expected to honor the oaths his father took on behalf of House Baratheon. His father stood in Harrenhal and swore allegiance to Rhaenerya as Viserys' heir. If Junior here had no intention of honoring that oath then no one can count on his house to keep their word on anything else. Apparently all anyone has to do is show up and kiss his ass sufficiently and he'll do whatever you want. It's a wonder the house was still standing when Game Of Thrones began.

[MrsR]

6 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I'm curious of who are they doing to get to ride the dragon. Do they have anymore possible dragon riders left of "flying age"? Maybe Rhaena?

You're inviting book talk which is against the rules.

[Sakura12]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Baela has a dragon, rhaena doesnt.

Has not choice since his grandkids are betrothed to her sons

And both seem happy with the arrangement and seem to have accepted Rheanyra as their mother figure. She included both at the council.

[Oscirus]

OK from a war standpoint, jack and baelas dragons are worthless, if vhagar can take out those baby dragons with one bite, I cant imagine  theirs have any more of a chance in the upcoming war.

[SeanC]

The scene where Daemon immediately kneels to Rhaenyra at her impromptu coronation amused me since Matt Smith's Prince Philip in The Crown has an episode-length snit about doing this.

[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

One thing I'm not buying is that Corlys would support Rhaenyra after saying she was complicit in his son's death.

4 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Has not choice since his grandkids are betrothed to her sons

I agree that his granddaughters were a significant motivator for siding with Rhaenyra. They appear to be extremely loyal to Rhaenyra and to her sons.

[The Kings Foot]

13 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

The labor porn was a bit frustrating.  And a missed opportunity.  I would have preferred to see a fully pregnant Rhynaera going to war at the end. This  fully pregnant mother who is seething with revenge. 

I see it as the opposite.  Like an animal shedding a burden it cant afford in combat. 

[AntFTW]

1 minute ago, MrsR said:

You're inviting book talk which is against the rules.

Well, this episode, more than any other, was screaming "READ THE BOOK!" at me. I just might do that.

[The Kings Foot]

4 minutes ago, MrsR said:

Well Aemond can't take it back, He's the only witness to what actually happened. The Baratheons can attest that he threatened Luke. So despite the fact that it was Vaghar's move and not Aemond's, he might as well claim it.  That way he looks like he's in control and a badass.

And ironically adds to his connection to Daemon  , another character who never denies the things he's accused of. 

[jeansheridan]

6 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

Seems obvious to me that those (including guards and servants) who were at Storm's End would know... and gossip.

Gossip isn't proof however. This show has a lot of gossip--the parentage of Rhynaera's boys, if Rhynaera had sex or not, all the stories about Aemon, Daemon's dead wife, etc. But yeah it probably won't be a plot point other than how Aemond decides to spin it.

[CountryGirl]

54 minutes ago, Lady Whistleup said:

I haven't felt so sad since Summer died.

Viserion and Rhaegal for me. 

[Cristofle]

It was actually nice to see that there seems to be genuine affection between Rhaenyra and Rhaena from their little interaction. Rhaena is the child that Daemon was indicated to be neglecting when she was younger, so it was nice to see Rhaenyra give her the respect of bringing her to the table. 

Now poor Rhaena, who remains dragonless at the moment, has lost her betrothed, who she seemed truly attached to :( That girl can't catch a break. 

[Meredith Quill]

If anyone has lore/book knowledge questions they'd like answered, please feel free to start a 'Questions for Bookreaders' type topic but please refrain from asking in no book talk topics, thanks.

[sistermagpie]

23 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

In terms of consequences, you're correct.

But from a character standpoint, it doesnt  serve Aemond to be portrayed as incompetent as opposed to a bloodthirsty asshole that they were building him up to be

16 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Can't he be both? Bloodthirsty and incompetent but learn from his terrible error? Then again why are we assuming people know what happened? It was cloudy, they were far away. People could assume but there are no eyewitness.  And if they were over water, no bodies. All they know for sure is Luke has disappeared.  Daemon of all people knows how to dodge a murder rap.

That's how I saw it. It seems like it's absolutely just as good for him to be cruel and just not as competent as he imagines, just like when he was a kid. He taunts, he gets things riled up and frightened and enraged, and then is surprised by the result. He's grown in competence over the years, but he's still got the same fatal flaw. 

[jeansheridan]

9 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

I see it as the opposite.  Like an animal shedding a burden it cant afford in combat. 

That's a fair take. A miscarriage like that is just so physically draining I had a hard time believing she could ride her dragon that soon.  She seemed fairly comfortable when she was pregnant. Many women are in the 2nd trimester. 

I kept thinking about it for the whole ep. I am not sure why the writers thought bookending the first and last eps with dead babies was elegant. The ep 1 death was very necessary.  This one was not.

[Constantinople]

24 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

One thing I'm not buying is that Corlys would support Rhaenyra after saying she was complicit in his son's death.

24 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Has no choice since his grandkids are betrothed to her sons

They've been betrothed for about a week at most. Moreover, betrothals were called off all the time in the Middle Ages.

Edited October 24, 2022 by Constantinople

[jeansheridan]

11 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I haven't felt so sad since Summer died.

Summer other than Ghost had the most on screen time. But justice for Lady, Shaggydog, and Greywind too!

[The Kings Foot]

As an aside.  In the title sequence,  Aemond's sigil is a blue jewel which makes it easier to identify him and his siblings. 

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

Daemon throttling Rhaenrya - was a 'huh?' moment for me, wtf? His motivation there went right over my head like a 747 - whoosh. Clearly it didn't bother her too much as they were holding hands later in the ep. #Iconfusion 

My two cents - it was the ol' Daemon hair trigger temper - he was furious that Viserys had never told him about the stupid prophesy and took it out on her. Luckily for her they are family so he controlled himself and walked away.  I am betting any other poor schmuck he would have throttled to death. As to the later hand holding - I bet she has few illusions about him.  She knows what he is.

I have a question about when Daemon was courting Vermithor and you can see Daemon in the dragon's eye and the dragon in Daemon's eye, is that supposed to mean that Daemon is a full dragon in human form.

I pray fervently that this is the last child birth I have watched on this show. Please, no more.

[Jodithgrace]

I got a kick out of Corlys announcing, “then we won’t support either side. We’ll go and retire quietly with our grandchildren.” I actually said out loud, “That’s not how this works! That’s not how any of this works!” I’m glad he decided to back Rhaenyra. 
 

Stupid Baratheons. Always were feckless I guess. Hopefully the Starks will live up to their oath. That’s their reputation. 
 

 

[MrsR]

26 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

OK from a war standpoint, jack and baelas dragons are worthless

Oh come on. Even an adolescent dragon can take out an army. Dragons can't be every where at once.

[Oscirus]

5 minutes ago, The Kings Foot said:

As an aside.  In the title sequence,  Aemond's sigil is a blue jewel which makes it easier to identify him and his siblings. 

and helenas is the spider. Regardless of how one feels about team green, they have fairly cool sigils