S02.E02: The Black Witch Moth

[Door County Cherry]

Quote

Eliza is hired by an insurance company to investigate the disappearance of a rare sketch by Charles Darwin, but the case becomes more complicated when it turns out the insurance company that hired her doesn't exist.

[HoodlumSheep]

I really enjoyed this episode!

I hope Basil the newspaper man sticks around. He's a hoot.

[dargosmydaddy]

This week's mystery seemed even more contrived than last week's (Also why was the moth-- native to South America?-- in the dead woman's room? And I rolled my eyes hard when it led Eliza straight to the secret chamber.), but William was back to being his curmudgeonly-but-decent self and I also found Fitzroy more sympathetic than last week, so I enjoyed it, too.

Edited October 24, 2022 by dargosmydaddy

[blackwing]

I really enjoyed this episode, I liked the mystery and the fact that it certainly didn't play out the way I thought it was going to.  I liked the way William and Eliza worked together on this case and I hope there is more of this instead of the "no man is going to tell me what to do" we have seen in the past.

Liked the old lady, but agree it was odd that the very moth somehow is loose in her room.  Did she keep one as a pet and let it out before she died?

16 hours ago, HoodlumSheep said:

I hope Basil the newspaper man sticks around. He's a hoot.

Seems like many shows have this quirky, pompous, completely unaware character.  He thinks he is amazing while everyone else thinks he is a buffoon.  He reminds me of Rupert Newsome from "Murdoch Mysteries" in terms of cluelessness.

[sharifa70]

I loved the opening scene with Eliza and the ladies’ Not-a-Group-You-Uncultured-Heathen. I also loved Eliza and Hattie working together, as well as the last scene with William telling Eliza to use the things she can’t change about herself rather than fighting them. 

The mystery itself was way too contrived and heavy-handed for me, with too many plotholes. 

Spoiler

We’re supposed to believe that the mother-in-law, who apparently respected her daughter-in-law, would risk DIL’s reputation and livelihood over the lost drawing in order to attract attention for Miss Scarlet, a lady she had never met? She would have been better off simply hosting a ladies’ cultural society (not a group) and inviting Eliza and DIL to speak.

[blackwing]

36 minutes ago, sharifa70 said:

I loved the opening scene with Eliza and the ladies’ Not-a-Group-You-Uncultured-Heathen. I also loved Eliza and Hattie working together, as well as the last scene with William telling Eliza to use the things she can’t change about herself rather than fighting them. 

The mystery itself was way too contrived and heavy-handed for me, with too many plotholes. 

We’re supposed to believe that the mother-in-law, who apparently respected her daughter-in-law, would risk DIL’s reputation and livelihood over the lost drawing in order to attract attention for Miss Scarlet, a lady she had never met? She would have been better off simply hosting a ladies’ cultural society (not a group) and inviting Eliza and DIL to speak.

(Show has aired in the U.S. so I don't think spoiler tags are necessary.)  I don't think that's what the mother-in-law was doing, I didn't think she was trying to gain publicity for Miss Scarlet.  She was trying to gain publicity for the museum.  She contrived that if a struggling museum announced that its prize sketch by Charles Darwin had gone missing, the insurance company has hired this young female detective to find it, they placed an advertisement in the newspaper letting people know it was missing and drummed up a lot of interest in it, then the female detective recovers the sketch and restores it to the museum.... then the museum would have gotten a lot of publicity and a lot more people would patronize it and support it.  The mother-in-law was trying to help her daughter-in-law.

When she was doing the crossword puzzle in the house, she showed Eliza her love of puzzles, and that got Eliza thinking and helped her find the sketch.

I guess it's a TV show so we knew the outcome was a given, but I'm wondering why the mother-in-law wouldn't have done more to ensure that Eliza would have solved the mystery.  Like, what would have happened if Eliza wasn't so bright and never realised the name of the insurance company was an anagram.  I understand why she didn't want to implicate herself as the person who organised and arranged the entire charade of a theft, but she died not knowing if the sketch would ever be found or if her daughter-in-law would be helped.

[kirinan]

Nothing to see here; didn't notice someone else had posted something.

Edited October 24, 2022 by kirinan

[voiceover]

*dances in*  Thrilled that my wish came true; that QC Hattie would be bidden, and then able, to help Eliza with a case.  And of course it would be because of some dorky obscure knowledge of…printing, ink, and fonts.   So it appears that both the title characters are fostering annoying-yet-clever chicks.  My next wish is to see those two meet.  Who knows what goofy chemistry might result?

I forgive the episode its heavy-handedness in introducing Eliza to two other women with her ish (eh, like attracts like, I suppose).  Because later it gave William an opportunity to impart some savvy advice (use “being a woman” to her advantage as he uses “being a Scot” to his — his accent does get noticeably thicker sometimes!).  I’m glad for that.  I don’t want the Duke’s personality sacrificed on the altar of Miss Scarlet’s.  

And imagine my delight when Mrs Parker presents the other side of that coin, there at the end (“I hired you because you’re the only private detective I know!”).  Darwin may be dead, but Freud’s alive, and less than 20 years away from publishing his theories.  Eliza’s being taught them early: Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes, you’re hired because you were the first available.

[taanja]

16 hours ago, voiceover said:

And imagine my delight when Mrs Parker presents the other side of that coin, there at the end (“I hired you because you’re the only private detective I know!”).  Darwin may be dead, but Freud’s alive, and less than 20 years away from publishing his theories.  Eliza’s being taught them early: Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, and sometimes, you’re hired because you were the first available.

I laughed at that also! 

This is the only "mystery" series/show I watch mainly because the mystery often times goes right over my head. So I don't really care if the crime/case is convoluted. I watch for the actors and the characters interactions. So far so good.

The show keeps me entertained for the entire hour. Mrs. Parker's niece may even turn out to be a character I like.

[Driad]

Why did Eliza smash the bust of Darwin? Probably it was already cast and solid when the museum acquired it. (Compare the Sherlock Holmes story "The Six Napoleons.") It must have had a hole big enough to hold the paper drawing, so Eliza could have at least showed her audience the hole before she smashed the bust.

[JudyObscure]

6 hours ago, Driad said:

Why did Eliza smash the bust of Darwin? Probably it was already cast and solid when the museum acquired it. (Compare the Sherlock Holmes story "The Six Napoleons.") It must have had a hole big enough to hold the paper drawing, so Eliza could have at least showed her audience the hole before she smashed the bust.

For that matter why did Eliza tell the whole society-not-group  the scandalous information about the one woman's son?  Yes, they were snooty and rude, but Eliza was downright cruel and enjoying it.

I'm only watching this because it's Sunday night on PBS and I watch what comes after, but, wow, the anachronisms, the contemporary attitudes in a woman of that period, the tedious cat and mouse of the romance, and Eliza's smug personality all grate on me.

Sorry, I probably should wait until nine to turn on the TV.

[blackwing]

4 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

For that matter why did Eliza tell the whole society-not-group  the scandalous information about the one woman's son?  Yes, they were snooty and rude, but Eliza was downright cruel and enjoying it.

I'm only watching this because it's Sunday night on PBS and I watch what comes after, but, wow, the anachronisms, the contemporary attitudes in a woman of that period, the tedious cat and mouse of the romance, and Eliza's smug personality all grate on me.

Sorry, I probably should wait until nine to turn on the TV.

I'm watching because I am a sucker for period pieces, but I'm right there with you regarding Eliza.  The title of the show is "Miss Scarlet and the Duke" so of course she is a main character but I wish that the show treated Eliza and William more as equals.  I thought I was the only one that didn't really care for Eliza.  She acts like anything and everything that people say and do to and around her is some kind of affront to her as a woman.  Women in Victorian times would not dare to act like her... but I guess that's why we are watching a show about this character, a woman  detective who is making her way in a man's domain.  I get it, but her attitude at times is off-putting to me.

The dance is already old to me.  William is a good looking dude, nice guy, has a good job.  Were this not a TV show he would have kicked Eliza to the curb ages ago and he'd have a line of potential mates eager for a chance.  But of course this is likely going to play out all season and then there will be some advancement in the season finale, and then likely repeat all over again in the (hopefully) future seasons.  I already saw this storyline 35 years ago on "Moonlighting".  This actress doesn't have the personality to make this kind of "I love you, I hate you" banter anywhere near as likeable as Bruce Willis and Cybill Shepherd did.

[sharifa70]

26 minutes ago, blackwing said:

Women in Victorian times would not dare to act like her...

I think the point of the show is there were women in Victorian times who acted like her: strong, independent, trying to make their way in a world that imposed certain behaviors and expectations on them. Nellie Bly is a great real-world example. As a journalist she went undercover and allowed herself to be committed to an asylum in order to expose the conditions there. She also famously went around the world in 72 days as a challenge to Verne’s novel.

Women with “modern” sensibilities and ambitions aren’t a tv invention.

[voiceover]

This started off as a question to the thread, but as I was typing it, the answer hit me.  I leave it here in case anyone else was secretly wondering 🤣

When Hattie started going on about “fonts”, it pinged.  I thought: Another TV character used to bore on about fonts, too!  But who??  I googled, to no avail. 

Just now it smacked me in the face: Brick, late of The Middle, was font-obsessed!!

*whew*  Back to my regularly scheduled life.

[AuntieMame]

8 hours ago, sharifa70 said:

I think the point of the show is there were women in Victorian times who acted like her: strong, independent, trying to make their way in a world that imposed certain behaviors and expectations on them. Nellie Bly is a great real-world example. As a journalist she went undercover and allowed herself to be committed to an asylum in order to expose the conditions there. She also famously went around the world in 72 days as a challenge to Verne’s novel.

Women with “modern” sensibilities and ambitions aren’t a tv invention.

There were many Victorian women doing interesting things and fighting the slings and arrows of society. I don’t think anyone is denying that, but the accusations of anachronism, especially in Eliza’s pugnacious and often downright rude behavior is a fair criticism of the writing. Contemporary women would hesitate to be this rude. 

[Grrarrggh]

4 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Contemporary women would hesitate to be this rude. 

Yes, because they're still under the noxious idea that females must always be sunshine and light. Smile! we're always told. Whereas if a man said and did exactly what Eliza did he'd be considered powerful and intelligent. 

[JudyObscure]

10 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

There were many Victorian women doing interesting things and fighting the slings and arrows of society. I don’t think anyone is denying that, but the accusations of anachronism, especially in Eliza’s pugnacious and often downright rude behavior is a fair criticism of the writing. Contemporary women would hesitate to be this rude. 

Right, and feminism doesn't require that we take on the worst attributes of men or that we believe occupations traditionally held by men are superior to those held by women. 

I think it's fine that she's a detective, but not that she's a perfect Mary Sue who never makes a mistake.  Even Nellie Bly, ran her late husband's business into bankruptcy.

The anachronisms that bother me are the ones of attitude.  Would a woman of that age know what it was to be gay?  Most of those women, at least in Scarlet's class, would barely know how married straight people acted until their wedding night. Wouldn't her maid have been very uncomfortable when asked to sit on her sofa and chat? Would a woman dressed like Scarlet be able to walk unaccompanied into the poor part of town without an Artful Dodger relieving her of her purse and hat? Wouldn't something worse happen if she went to a brothel? Would she have been able to live alone and have male visitors without some men getting the wrong idea?

[AuntieMame]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Right, and feminism doesn't require that we take on the worst attributes of men or that we believe occupations traditionally held by men are superior to those held by women. 

The anachronisms that bother me are the ones of attitude.  Would a woman of that age know what it was to be gay?  Most of those women, at least in Scarlet's class, would barely know how married straight people acted until their wedding night. Wouldn't her maid have been very uncomfortable when asked to sit on her sofa and chat? Would a woman dressed like Scarlet be able to walk unaccompanied into the poor part of town without an Artful Dodger relieving her of her purse and hat? Wouldn't something worse happen if she went to a brothel? Would she have been able to live alone and have male visitors without some men getting the wrong idea?

Agreed. I noticed the drinking in a bar to tail a person and walking around unattended at night. Even middle class Victorian women were escorted most of the time, at the very least by a servant, especially at night. When Eliza was following the museum lady I scoffed that both of them were walking around Victorian London at night without anyone.  

No woman other than a prostitute would have been in a pub, especially the rough kind. These are some of the iron clad conventions that made life so difficult for the trailblazing women of that time, but it doesn’t mean that they flouted all of them directly, especially the ones that could reflect on the perception of their purity. These women had to choose their battles and where and how they rebelled very carefully. This is the era where disobedient women were packed off to the madhouse if they weren’t very careful indeed. I enjoy this show for what it is, but I would love a show that depicted a Victorian woman trying to navigate the minefield of sexism and convention. That would show us our true history. This amounts mostly to fluff and propaganda. 

Though I do think the Duke is handsome. I also liked the bookending of Mrs. Parker at the beginning and end of the episode and how it sets up the next mystery. Clever. 

Edited October 27, 2022 by AuntieMame

[taanja]

2 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Agreed. I noticed the drinking in a bar to tail a person and walking around unattended at night. Even middle class Victorian women were escorted most of the time, at the very least by a servant, especially at night. When Eliza was following the museum lady I scoffed that both of them were walking around Victorian London at night without anyone.  

No woman other than a prostitute would have been in a pub, especially the rough kind. These are some of the iron clad conventions that made life so difficult for the trailblazing women of that time, but it doesn’t mean that they flouted all of them directly, especially the ones that could reflect on the perception of their purity. These women had to choose their battles and where and how they rebelled very carefully. This is the era where disobedient women were packed off to the madhouse if they weren’t very careful indeed.

I notice a lot of period shows are doing this now. Giving the female characters agency they would NEVER have had in their own times. 

[pezgirl7]

I definitely have to hand wave a lot of the historically inaccurate, modern customs that are shown. I read that women would never share a carriage with a man, unless they were related. And of course she wouldn't have gentlemen callers at night, especially without a chaperone. I think if the show were completely accurate, it would really affect the storylines and would be much less enjoyable.

On 10/26/2022 at 9:52 AM, blackwing said:

The dance is already old to me.  William is a good looking dude, nice guy, has a good job.  Were this not a TV show he would have kicked Eliza to the curb ages ago and he'd have a line of potential mates eager for a chance.

I get the sense that he's not really looking for a mate, and has plenty of "loose" women on the side that keep him satisfied. But he's still drawn to Eliza, despite how much she vexes him. And I think he still feels obligated to look after her since her father was a father figure to him.

[AuntieMame]

20 minutes ago, pezgirl7 said:

I definitely have to hand wave a lot of the historically inaccurate, modern customs that are shown. I read that women would never share a carriage with a man, unless they were related. And of course she wouldn't have gentlemen callers at night, especially without a chaperone. I think if the show were completely accurate, it would really affect the storylines and would be much less enjoyable.

I don’t think the show would have to be necessarily less enjoyable if these things were a bit more realistically portrayed. As it stands, it looks like women of that era (and thus any era) had it easy and all they had to do was do things differently. This does a disservice to everyone, especially younger viewers who truly might not have the knowledge to identify the anachronisms. I hated Kate Winslet giving the finger to another character in Titanic and I know that was blockbuster fun. In Titanic though, the inaccuracy that really got me was the character assassination of Lightoller, a hero several times over, first the night Titanic sank, than WWI, finally dying during WWII rescuing stranded soldiers from Dunkirk. 
These kind of anachronisms matter because they lessen the character and deeds of truly great individuals. 

[pezgirl7]

1 hour ago, AuntieMame said:

I don’t think the show would have to be necessarily less enjoyable if these things were a bit more realistically portrayed. As it stands, it looks like women of that era (and thus any era) had it easy and all they had to do was do things differently. This does a disservice to everyone, especially younger viewers who truly might not have the knowledge to identify the anachronisms.

I think I would find it less enjoyable because we would be deprived of so many of Eliza's and William's conversations that happen in private. One of my favorite scenes is the one where Williams spends the night, Eliza fails at cooking, and they share a moment while boiling an egg. 😆 That scene never would have occurred if the show was historically accurate. I also consider the show to be light-hearted, fictional drama, so I don't think the creators should have the responsibility of "telling it like it was". I understand your criticism of Titanic, but I think exceptions can be made for this type of show.

[AuntieMame]

Agreed, exceptions can be made and we’re all products of our own historical moment and our art and entertainment will reflect that. I just don’t think every exception has to be made. In truth it was almost impossible to be a middle class Victorian woman who was alone in the world unless you had an inherited income sufficient to meet necessary expenses. 
I would just choose different exceptions. Of course we want to see Eliza and William together and that wouldn’t have been socially acceptable. But I would like to see some of the real difficulties any woman trying to make her own living or start a business would face, especially as she wasn’t allowed free movement through the world. There are ways to balance fun and exactitude. 

Speaking of fun, I’m looking forward to next week’s episode and Mrs. Parker does the Victorian version of The Bachelor with Eliza on background checks. I’m expecting that to turn up another mystery that needs solving. 

[voiceover]

Eh.  If the series was based upon a book written during the time period of said book, I’d be more inclined to roll my eyes.  We know that every modern adaptation (i.e. movie/TV series) has a tendency to reflect — to a greater or lesser extent, depending upon the people involved — current-day POV.   

Example: Little Women, a novel about Victorian times written by a woman of that time.   I’m terribly fond of *almost every remake, to the point where I can handwave the modern sensibilities in both the Winona Ryder and Maya Hawke versions,  because the performances & casting choices are so spot-on (a moment of disgusted eyeroll for the most recent incarnation, where neither is the case, and I’m unwilling to forgive updated ‘tudes).  

But all that applies because I loved the book first (same goes for Jane Eyre and Pride & Prejudice).  In the case of original material, for me it depends upon my feelings towards the main characters, and often, towards the actors who play them. If the performer is appealing and the character intrigues, I’m good.  That’s why I’m having so much fun with this series.

(As far as the idea that “contemporary women” would never tell off a room of snooty bitches, and are always expected to just smile and take it…I’ll just say that mileage certainly varies🤣)

[sharifa70]

Ordinary Victorian women being rather extraordinary:

https://medium.com/history-of-women/an-1889-magazine-asked-single-women-why-they-arent-married-and-ouch-the-replies-eab5853e1f45

[AuntieMame]

12 hours ago, sharifa70 said:

Ordinary Victorian women being rather extraordinary:

https://medium.com/history-of-women/an-1889-magazine-asked-single-women-why-they-arent-married-and-ouch-the-replies-eab5853e1f45

Thank you for this, it out a smile on my face this early morning. 

[Ilovepie]

On 10/23/2022 at 6:54 PM, dargosmydaddy said:

This week's mystery seemed even more contrived than last week's (Also why was the moth-- native to South America?-- in the dead woman's room? And I rolled my eyes hard when it led Eliza straight to the secret chamber.), but William was back to being his curmudgeonly-but-decent self and I also found Fitzroy more sympathetic than last week, so I enjoyed it, too.

I feel the same - I don't know why the moth was necessary - Eliza has shown herself to be resourceful enough to have discovered the secret passage without the moth leading her there. The whole mother in law plot made little sense, but cutting this fantastical denouement would have made it slightly more realistic. I did love the photo of the dead woman with the pyramid and her pipe.

[Door County Cherry]

On 10/27/2022 at 7:21 PM, sharifa70 said:

Ordinary Victorian women being rather extraordinary:

https://medium.com/history-of-women/an-1889-magazine-asked-single-women-why-they-arent-married-and-ouch-the-replies-eab5853e1f45

Thank you for this.  I think that's one thing that I feel sometimes gets missed in terms of realism with shows like this.  Yes, there were stereotypical expectations of women that many followed.  But not everyone.  There have always been radicals throughout history.  Eliza is most definitely supposed to be a radical.

I'm not saying this show is overly concerned with realism but I'm not pulled out of the story because she has decided not to behave as "one should" according to generalized depictions of people from this time. 

[statsgirl]

On 10/26/2022 at 10:52 AM, blackwing said:

I'm watching because I am a sucker for period pieces, but I'm right there with you regarding Eliza.  The title of the show is "Miss Scarlet and the Duke" so of course she is a main character but I wish that the show treated Eliza and William more as equals.  I thought I was the only one that didn't really care for Eliza.  She acts like anything and everything that people say and do to and around her is some kind of affront to her as a woman.  Women in Victorian times would not dare to act like her... but I guess that's why we are watching a show about this character, a woman  detective who is making her way in a man's domain.  I get it, but her attitude at times is off-putting to me.

The dance is already old to me.  William is a good looking dude, nice guy, has a good job.  Were this not a TV show he would have kicked Eliza to the curb ages ago and he'd have a line of potential mates eager for a chance. 

The show mistakes being rude with being strong.

Can I sit at your table?  I know that Miss Scarlet is the primary character but she really treats William badly. She demands his help and his information immediately even though she knows that he is in trouble with his superiors because of her. There's a sense that she feels that she can get what she wants because she is behind because of being a woman and she doesn't care if William gets hurt because of her.  I think that he can do better in the sense of being with someone who cares about him as a person rather than as an attractive man who can help her.

Buzinski is not a noble Hungarian name. It's not even a Hungarian name (it's Polish) although there was a footballer of that name born in Hungary. The writing on the show can be better.

[chaifan]

On 10/26/2022 at 11:52 AM, voiceover said:

This started off as a question to the thread, but as I was typing it, the answer hit me.  I leave it here in case anyone else was secretly wondering 🤣

When Hattie started going on about “fonts”, it pinged.  I thought: Another TV character used to bore on about fonts, too!  But who??  I googled, to no avail. 

Just now it smacked me in the face: Brick, late of The Middle, was font-obsessed!!

*whew*  Back to my regularly scheduled life.

I started watching The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel earlier this year.  Just in the last week or so, there was an episode where the characters were discussing the font used in an alternative newspaper.  The Primetimer thread for that ep was filled with comments about how no one would have used the word "font" in the 50's/early 60's, they would have talked about "typeface".  So it struck me when "font" was used here.  So I googled it, and yep, sure enough, "font" has been a word for hundreds of years. 

I'm glad this episode gave Hattie a purpose.

I like this show.  I don't need for it to be 100% historically accurate in the way women would have acted, what they could and couldn't do.  First, I'm ok with the show stretching things like that for artistic license.  Second, the reason we (the casual tv viewer) think we know so much about what women could and couldn't do back then is because of... yep, movies and tv, mostly made 1/2 century ago, all made by men.  So I think a lot of our collective "knowledge" is colored by other fictional accounts.  Yeah, we have some literature contemporary to the time, but not a lot in the whole scheme of things and that really gives us a very limited view, also colored by the author's perspective and the story they wanted to tell.