S01.E08: Ezra

[Guest]

Quote

Dr. Strauss is honest with himself about his failures, past and present. A revelation about his relationship with Ezra leads him back to the urgency of escape. Sam loses faith in his doctor.

Release Date: October 11, 2022

[AntFTW]

Serial killers always have this insurmountable strength that no one can fight. It's like being constricted by a python. Once you're in it's coils, there is no getting way.

This is a 10 episode season, right?

Edited October 11, 2022 by AntFTW

[Soobs]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Serial killers always have this insurmountable strength that no one can fight. It's like being constricted by a python. Once you're in it's coils, there is no getting way.

This is a 10 episode season, right?

Yes, two episodes left.

The foot cream is coming to the rescue.

[Guest]

7 hours ago, Soobs said:

Yes, two episodes left.

I wish there were spoilers so I could save myself the time from watching these. 

The show started off strong but has turned into a massive snore fest.

And where are the police and the media? Are they even involved in trying to find a missing, celebrated author/doctor or are they just relying on Ezra, his shitty flyers, and his staple gun?

[sistermagpie]

Gotta say...I know this ep is supposed to make me feel like I misjudged Ezra by just listening to his father's side of the story but...it didn't work. 

[BetyBee]

Sam must be stopped. His boss seemed like a nice guy. I felt like we gained insight into the family dynamics of Alan's family. It was so interesting (to me) that Alan sees his part in Ezra's feeling excluded. I like Ezra. He still loves his Dad and is trying to get him back. It's the same for Alan. I have no idea where this is going to end, but I hope it ends with Sam cut to ribbons by a tube of foot cream, Sam's mother charged as an accessory and with Ezra and Alan embracing!

[RainbowBrite]

I didn't realize just how claustrophobic this show was making me feel until they expanded the world this episode. It was nice to see Ezra, in real time (not flashbacks). I have to hope that Sam killing his supervisor will be his downfall; this will be the second person close to him in his professional life that has died or gone missing in less than a week. 

[gesundheit]

3 hours ago, RainbowBrite said:

I didn't realize just how claustrophobic this show was making me feel until they expanded the world this episode. It was nice to see Ezra, in real time (not flashbacks). I have to hope that Sam killing his supervisor will be his downfall; this will be the second person close to him in his professional life that has died or gone missing in less than a week. 

Yes, so relieved that we've finally checked in with Alan's outside world and that his loved ones are looking for him! I also appreciate that Ezra is realizing his own mistakes while Alan is doing the same thing.

I didn't understand the thing with Ezra and the candies? I really couldn't quite read all those facial expressions and the struggle with getting the carton thing open. What was that supposed to signify?

[RainbowBrite]

3 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Yes, so relieved that we've finally checked in with Alan's outside world and that his loved ones are looking for him! I also appreciate that Ezra is realizing his own mistakes while Alan is doing the same thing.

I didn't understand the thing with Ezra and the candies? I really couldn't quite read all those facial expressions and the struggle with getting the carton thing open. What was that supposed to signify?

My uneducated guess was that the candies were not kosher? Maybe signifying that Ezra is re-evaluating what is most important to him (relationship with his father and his family?).

Edited October 12, 2022 by RainbowBrite
Added second sentence

[gesundheit]

2 minutes ago, RainbowBrite said:

My uneducated guess was that the candies were not kosher? Maybe signifying that Ezra is re-evaluating what is most important to him (relationship with his father and his family?).

That's what I thought too, but then I didn't quite get the reaction. Like why was his oldest son so upset? And if it was evil of their grandmother to give the other kids ice cream in front of them because they can't have it, why wouldn't the younger kids have been more excited? I don't know, I can't quite get my own thoughts together on it but I would've liked a little more than just body language to explain each character's positioning in that scene, because we don't know those people well enough to read them easily. I guess the older son is all-in on the orthodoxy and was appalled? But then was okay because his dad came and sat next to him? It's funny because I usually get mad there's not enough subtext in shows these days and they always spell everything out, but here I am wishing they'd given us a few more explicit hints.

Also damn, if you're going to abandon kosher eating, that was a pretty weak selection of treats!!

[Madding crowd]

It looked to me that Ezra bought the candy at a kosher store and was probably trying to make up for the fact the other kids were offered a dessert. I didn’t get the point of his singing country roads although it might have reminded him of his mother. I think Ezra looks to old to be the son of Steve Carell but maybe Alan is supposed to be older.

I agree this show is kind of boring . I thought it would be creepy but it is more about father and son relationships and religion than anything else. I’m always late to the party but just found out the actor playing Sam is Irish and the son of Brendan Glesson. He also looks way different in the pics of him online. 

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, RainbowBrite said:

My uneducated guess was that the candies were not kosher? Maybe signifying that Ezra is re-evaluating what is most important to him (relationship with his father and his family?).

1 hour ago, gesundheit said:

That's what I thought too, but then I didn't quite get the reaction. Like why was his oldest son so upset? And if it was evil of their grandmother to give the other kids ice cream in front of them because they can't have it, why wouldn't the younger kids have been more excited? I don't know, I can't quite get my own thoughts together on it but I would've liked a little more than just body language to explain each character's positioning in that scene, because we don't know those people well enough to read them easily. I guess the older son is all-in on the orthodoxy and was appalled? But then was okay because his dad came and sat next to him? It's funny because I usually get mad there's not enough subtext in shows these days and they always spell everything out, but here I am wishing they'd given us a few more explicit hints.

Also damn, if you're going to abandon kosher eating, that was a pretty weak selection of treats!!

12 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

It looked to me that Ezra bought the candy at a kosher store and was probably trying to make up for the fact the other kids were offered a dessert. I didn’t get the point of his singing country roads although it might have reminded him of his mother. I think Ezra looks to old to be the son of Steve Carell but maybe Alan is supposed to be older.

I went through that back and forth too. I think they were kosher treats--I don't know what kind of selection there is there, but this deli might not have had the best. 

I wasn't sure about the son's reaction either. He's the eldest so maybe just gets what's going on more and is stressed about seeing what his dad is dealing with or maybe loves his grandfather, while the other kids are also stressed but less clear about it and confused about the treats. The older son could see his struggling with the box bringing out some emotions.

I like all the focus on religion and the family relationships, though when Alan talks about his son wanting his respect it just seems like another way of his being misogynist. Dad should respect his religious choice to consider his mother unfit to be a rabbi because she's a woman, because as the man, Dad's the one who can withold respect. Mommy's just supposed to love him and care for him and get limited respect for that.

[MissL]

20 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Gotta say...I know this ep is supposed to make me feel like I misjudged Ezra by just listening to his father's side of the story but...it didn't work. 

Yeah I think…I don’t know how I feel about that either.   I think what really hit me is the “I’ve showed more compassion and understanding to a serial killer than my own son.”  But isn’t that what happens? You’d never speak to a stranger the way you speak to family or yourself.

I found myself tearing up at the sadness in both their faces realizing that the last interactions they had were angry and cold and they may really never get a chance to fix it. I lost my dad and I can’t even imagine having that kind of ending but I have a brother that never showed to our dieing fathers bedside so I can imagine the pure rage of that just fine. So any kindness I feel towards Ezra is due to the actor and his fathers love I guess.

The ping pong thing was..surreal. A little morbidly funny? Liked that Steve played to win.  I’m thinking I might have liked this show more dropped all at once. At least I hope so. Depends on how it ends. I’m all in now though so have to finish it.

[QQQQ]

How did Alan's shrink die? Was he also killed by Sam? 😂

[gesundheit]

2 hours ago, MissL said:

Yeah I think…I don’t know how I feel about that either.   I think what really hit me is the “I’ve showed more compassion and understanding to a serial killer than my own son.”  But isn’t that what happens? You’d never speak to a stranger the way you speak to family or yourself.

Also I'm pretty sure there's no threat his son will murder him or anyone else. It was a bit odd considering why he's been HAVING to show compassion and understanding to that serial killer.

[QQQQ]

I spent the first few episodes thinking "the patient" referred to Sam. Then I spent the next several episodes believing "the patient" meant Alan. Eight episodes in and I'm convinced it refers to anyone still watching.

[violetwaves]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I went through that back and forth too. I think they were kosher treats--I don't know what kind of selection there is there, but this deli might not have had the best. 

I wasn't sure about the son's reaction either. He's the eldest so maybe just gets what's going on more and is stressed about seeing what his dad is dealing with or maybe loves his grandfather, while the other kids are also stressed but less clear about it and confused about the treats. The older son could see his struggling with the box bringing out some emotions.

I like all the focus on religion and the family relationships, though when Alan talks about his son wanting his respect it just seems like another way of his being misogynist. Dad should respect his religious choice to consider his mother unfit to be a rabbi because she's a woman, because as the man, Dad's the one who can withold respect. Mommy's just supposed to love him and care for him and get limited respect for that.

I often deal with kosher foods due to my work. Those didn’t look like any packages of kosher candies I’ve seen. In order to be deemed kosher they have a symbol on them to show that’s what they are. I totally didn’t get that scene at all and I’ve actually often wondered about this show and how much they leave up to viewer interpretation with regards to the religious points. I work with reformed, modern orthodox and Orthodox Jews and regularly take part in learning about Judaism and I’ve had to ask my coworkers about some of the things I’ve seen on the show. I’ve often been wondering how the casual viewer is supposed to get the nuances of certain things.

for example, the mom wasn’t a rabbi, she was a cantor which is different. And it wasn’t about the mom singing period but her singing in mixed company. Also the wife of Ezra doesn’t cover her hair so that was confusing. Idk I hope they explain the candy scene later.

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, violetwaves said:

for example, the mom wasn’t a rabbi, she was a cantor which is different. And it wasn’t about the mom singing period but her singing in mixed company. Also the wife of Ezra doesn’t cover her hair so that was confusing. Idk I hope they explain the candy scene later.

Sorry, that was my bad. I should have known she was a cantor--though I don't know the nuances either. I did get that the problem was that she was singing in mixed company. That doesn't make it better to me.

I thought his wife was wearing a wig--another aspect I don't know the nuances of but know is a thing. It looked like one to me. 

[violetwaves]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Sorry, that was my bad. I should have known she was a cantor--though I don't know the nuances either. I did get that the problem was that she was singing in mixed company. That doesn't make it better to me.

I thought his wife was wearing a wig--another aspect I don't know the nuances of but know is a thing. It looked like one to me. 

That’s kind of my point tho. On the surface, or I will admit even in practice by those who wish to abuse it, some of the things Orthodox Jews do could be misconstrued as misogynistic but that’s to someone who doesn’t know, or in Alan’s case, refuses to learn why they choose to do these things. It’s something that’s actually been a big plot point imo. Alan is now starting to realize that he was stuck in his stubbornness and refused to learn about or give respect to the way Ezra and his family choose to live. There’s great beauty in some of these rules Orthodox Jews have as they’re centered around the husband and wife relationship. I actually worked super closely with an orthodox rabbi for the better part of a year and had many of these same questions. Working so closely with the community has given me a new perspective on how beautiful a lot of the religion can be…and this is coming from an atheist.

[sistermagpie]

38 minutes ago, violetwaves said:

That’s kind of my point tho. On the surface, or I will admit even in practice by those who wish to abuse it, some of the things Orthodox Jews do could be misconstrued as misogynistic but that’s to someone who doesn’t know, or in Alan’s case, refuses to learn why they choose to do these things. It’s something that’s actually been a big plot point imo. Alan is now starting to realize that he was stuck in his stubbornness and refused to learn about or give respect to the way Ezra and his family choose to live. There’s great beauty in some of these rules Orthodox Jews have as they’re centered around the husband and wife relationship. I actually worked super closely with an orthodox rabbi for the better part of a year and had many of these same questions. Working so closely with the community has given me a new perspective on how beautiful a lot of the religion can be…and this is coming from an atheist.

I don't think Alan's that clueless about why Orthadox Jews do what they do. I'm not placing a blanket judgment on every person who's Orthodox one way or the other--everyone's different, after all. Though most religions and cultures with strict gender rules have explanations for how they're actually really beautiful and not misogynist at all--that doesn't always mean thinking it's misogynistic is miscontruing it. It being so very easy to abuse a practice is a feature, not a bug.

But I don't think this show is making a case for Orthodox practices or not, it's just playing out the tensions in this particular family. So it's important that singing in mixed company is central to the mother's identity and faith and a bunch of men walked out in protest to reject her choice to sing (presumably against his wishes) at his wedding and he thinks he's the one being disrespected. It's going to take a lot more than official explanations for Ezra to not come across like a kid with issues to me. Obviously he could be a whole lot worse--I don't think he's an abusive villain. I believe he loves his parents. He just still seems like a pill.

Edited October 13, 2022 by sistermagpie

[violetwaves]

The men didn’t walk out in protest. They walked out in respect for their wives and out of feeling uncomfortable for being forced into a situation that doesn’t align with their faith. I actually saw the mom as being defiant and antagonistic because if she had that much knowledge of the Jewish faith that she made it her life she’d have known that she would make everyone on the wife’s side of the family and her son feel uncomfortable by her actions. I’ve never seen anyone from opposite ends of the spectrum of Judaism treat each other this way. Hell, even the non Jewish employees at my work don’t treat those who are orthodox this way. Everyone is respectful of the differences and makes allowances for them. Hence my familiarity with kosher foods as we have different kosher and non kosher eating areas at my work place and shaking hands between opposite sex people usually comes with asking for consent first. It’s not that hard. It’s one of the things I think I find the most bizarre about Alan and the mom’s characters.

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, violetwaves said:

The men didn’t walk out in protest. They walked out in respect for their wives and out of feeling uncomfortable for being forced into a situation that doesn’t align with their faith.

Yes, that's what I saw too. This woman is disrespecting me and my wife by singing in front of me.

9 minutes ago, violetwaves said:

I actually saw the mom as being defiant and antagonistic because if she had that much knowledge of the Jewish faith that she made it her life she’d have known that she would make everyone on the wife’s side of the family and her son feel uncomfortable by her actions.

Of course she was being defiant and antagonistic. She's not allowed to sing at her son's wedding because her woman's voice is inherently sensual and stimulating to men and that makes it disrespectful to their wives. This is the view of women that her son, who grew up hearing her sing, has embraced and wants his parents to respect. 

The thing with Ezra, to me, is that while his mother obviously loved sticking it to him in her own petty way, his betrayals are just so much bigger.

9 minutes ago, violetwaves said:

I’ve never seen anyone from opposite ends of the spectrum of Judaism treat each other this way. Hell, even the non Jewish employees at my work don’t treat those who are orthodox this way.

This wasn't about different spectrums of Judaism, though. It was a family rift. One could argue Mom should have let him have his wedding day and not make a protest in that venue, but the mother probably saw her being ordered not to sing as a slap in the face as his mother. This would also have been presumably after he sent her the passive-aggressive instructions about how to dress when she came to see him at the yeshiva. He might have been worried about his mother staging a protest there--and that's why the dad was insulted, because of course she wouldn't feel any need to not dress for the school.

9 minutes ago, violetwaves said:

Everyone is respectful of the differences and makes allowances for them. Hence my familiarity with kosher foods as we have different kosher and non kosher eating areas at my work place and shaking hands between opposite sex people usually comes with asking for consent first. It’s not that hard. It’s one of the things I think I find the most bizarre about Alan and the mom’s characters.

I think that's because all of them are just as respectful of differences in general. They're disrespectful to *each other* because their family because it's all tied to how they've hurt and been hurt by each other. If Ezra had become a Jew for Jesus they'd be angry at them instead.

[violetwaves]

I just don’t agree with your assessment of what went down in the wedding, especially with my own personal observations of the community but like I said it’s been one of my concerns about this show. Those with little knowledge of the community interpreting it through those eyes. I’ve been quite surprised at how little they’ve explained about the Jewish faith while relying heavily on it to portray family dynamics.

[Dminches]

8 hours ago, violetwaves said:

Also the wife of Ezra doesn’t cover her hair so that was confusing. Idk I hope they explain the candy scene later.

Ezra's wife wears a wig and they made it look pretty bad so that we would know it was a wig.  At least that's what I am seeing

Regarding the candy, it certainly didn't look like it was Kosher. I thought that the eldest son left the table because he was upset at how desperate and sad his dad looked. It could have been about the fact that Ezra brought the candy in the house but I thought it was more about Ezra himself.

[Dminches]

I thought the "session" with the deceased therapist was the best therapy session of the show. Alan made some real strides in his understanding of the family dynamics and how he may have been as responsible for Ezra's defiance as was his wife. 

In addition, Ezra too seems to be feeling some regret for how his relationship with his dad has deteriorated, in part due to his decision to join the orthodoxy.  Showing both scenes, one after the other, was very powerful.

[Lone Wolf]

On 10/11/2022 at 11:11 AM, Soobs said:

Yes, two episodes left.

The foot cream is coming to the rescue.

That's the direction I'm leaning in.  Unless it's a huge misdirect, he was sharpening the bottom of the tube several times during the show and the sound of it was the last thing we heard before the credits.

Two eps, indeed.  Sam doesn't need Alan anymore now that he has the new therapist, so things are going to come to a head quickly.

13 hours ago, QQQQ said:

How did Alan's shrink die? Was he also killed by Sam? 😂

I don't remember if they said, but I have the impression that it was natural causes.

Edited October 13, 2022 by Lone Wolf

[gesundheit]

4 hours ago, Dminches said:

Ezra's wife wears a wig and they made it look pretty bad so that we would know it was a wig.  At least that's what I am seeing

Yes, that is 100% a wig, very common for women to use as a head covering.

12 hours ago, violetwaves said:

That’s kind of my point tho. On the surface, or I will admit even in practice by those who wish to abuse it, some of the things Orthodox Jews do could be misconstrued as misogynistic but that’s to someone who doesn’t know, or in Alan’s case, refuses to learn why they choose to do these things. It’s something that’s actually been a big plot point imo. 

I've no doubt that both Alan and his wife absolutely know why they do these things, they just vehemently disagree. Alan's reference to Scientology was critical to the discussion -- Ezra is not just "more orthodox" in the same faith that Alan practices, he's literally in a dangerous cult (that promotes oppression) from Alan's point of view. This is a stark ideological distinction far bigger than "more religious than me" or "I should just respect this difference." 

I think it's wonderful that Alan is softening and realizing he can love his son anyway and lose the anger, and that Ezra is also seeing how cruel he was being. There's a way to move forward here with love -- that doesn't require Alan to submit to Ezra's extremism.

[Faceplant]

I thought Ezra's son was upset the candies weren't kosher, but maybe not. I went back and the candies were from the kosher deli. I assumed everything in there was kosher. Maybe it was just out of character for Ezra to bring home candy. He seems pretty rigid with the rules and the type who rarely deviates from his set routine. 

Sam killed his boss after escorting him from a public place. There must be cameras there because there seem to be cameras everywhere nowadays. Also, are we supposed to assume this was the first time his boss has annoyed him this much?  I assume his boss was also the guy who allowed Elias' restaurant to be reinspected. That caused him to murder Elias, not his boss. So what was the difference this time? 

[sistermagpie]

13 hours ago, violetwaves said:

I just don’t agree with your assessment of what went down in the wedding, especially with my own personal observations of the community but like I said it’s been one of my concerns about this show. Those with little knowledge of the community interpreting it through those eyes. I’ve been quite surprised at how little they’ve explained about the Jewish faith while relying heavily on it to portray family dynamics.

I thought we did agree on it. Ezra's mom wanted to sing at his wedding because she's a cantor. She was told that women didn't sing in their culture. She sang anyway, intentionally defying the rule. Some men got up and left because in their culture women should not sing for anyone but their husband. They left the room rather than be sung to by her. isn't that what's objectively happening?

Imo, knew perfectly well they would do this, but her defiant performance wasn't for them, but for Ezra (possibly daring him to walk out). She was loudly saying that she wasn't willing to give up singing at her son's wedding to respect his new culture, and some of the men were not willing to listen to her sing to respect that his was his mother and she's not orthodox. If we disagree, it seems to just be how much misunderstanding of the culture is at work here--I don't think that's much in play at all, that it's about family tension. (And maybe we disagree on the beauty of strict gender roles in conservative religions, but that's a different subject.)

2 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I've no doubt that both Alan and his wife absolutely know why they do these things, they just vehemently disagree. Alan's reference to Scientology was critical to the discussion -- Ezra is not just "more orthodox" in the same faith that Alan practices, he's literally in a dangerous cult (that promotes oppression) from Alan's point of view. This is a stark ideological distinction far bigger than "more religious than me" or "I should just respect this difference." 

Yes, that's also why it just seems significant to me that the reconciliation, if it happens, is between the father and son, with the mother, who was even more aggressive in her contempt but had a far more personal stake in it, was gone. It's just another bit of complication.

The sister, btw, added an interesting note, I thought, too. She's clearly not as angry at Ezra and just told him to get some rest and promised to put up the rest of the fliers, but at the same time doesn't seem like he'd consider her to be on "his side" about his conversion.

2 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I think it's wonderful that Alan is softening and realizing he can love his son anyway and lose the anger, and that Ezra is also seeing how cruel he was being. There's a way to move forward here with love -- that doesn't require Alan to submit to Ezra's extremism.

Yes, both men recognize the emotional stuff really driving them in this e.  Alan had to see, in retrospect, that qualifying that it was the best kosher steak might have been passive-aggressive on his part, and Ezra admitted that he was just angry at Alan when they fought. 

Edited October 13, 2022 by sistermagpie

[Lone Wolf]

5 hours ago, Faceplant said:

Sam killed his boss after escorting him from a public place. There must be cameras there because there seem to be cameras everywhere nowadays. Also, are we supposed to assume this was the first time his boss has annoyed him this much?  I assume his boss was also the guy who allowed Elias' restaurant to be reinspected. That caused him to murder Elias, not his boss. So what was the difference this time? 

I think it was a combination of his boss getting Sam angry yet again and Sam having a lower tolerance for it, probably because his "sessions" with Alan are making it frustratingly clear to him that he isn't getting better.  There's no doubt that Sam took the early reinspection personally.

IIRC, Sam killed Elias when Elias was talking about inheriting the restaurant from his parents, which reminded Sam of his own abusive father, and he just snapped.  They didn't make that real clear, but it's been brought out that Sam's still angry with his father and is looking for any excuse to take it out on anyone who he perceives has disrespected him, which he initially told Alan that Elias had done.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Sam killed his boss after escorting him from a public place. 

Not to be argumentative, but I think the boss had left the restaurant when Sam approached him. There could be cameras outside or something but I don't think Sam actually went in the restaurant.

Quote

She was told that women didn't sing in their culture. She sang anyway, intentionally defying the rule. Some men got up and left because in their culture women should not sing for anyone but their husband. They left the room rather than be sung to by her. isn't that what's objectively happening?

I think they can also sing with other women too. 

Quote

Ezra is not just "more orthodox" in the same faith that Alan practices, he's literally in a dangerous cult (that promotes oppression) from Alan's point of view.

Beth actually said, in a flashback, that she felt Ezra was "joining a cult." 
I wonder if there's this experience in many, if not all, religions. I grew up Catholic, in a sort of moderately devout family (observing some traditions but not super strict). There was a nearby parish that eventually became cult-like. Members all moved to the same neighborhoods (some leaving our neighborhood to join the migration); their entire lives revolved around that particular parish (not the Catholic Church/faith generally but that specific congregation); church leadership heavily influenced the choice of romantic partners by multiple congregants - all while the parish maintained its "membership" and identity as a part of the Catholic Church. That one church was pretty widely considered to be a cult. Even within the mainstream Catholic Church, some less devout members may consider more devout members (for example, those who insist on attending Latin Mass or who strictly observe Lenten restrictions, almost cult-like in their devotion.

I did take issue with Allan's statement that he had shown more empathy to a serial killer than he had his own son. There is a certain amount of survival strategy going on with his not pissing off the killer holding him captive in the basement and, although I think Beth behaved badly, I don't necessarily think that Allan was wrong to be angry that Ezra left Beth on her deathbed, refusing to grant her dying wish. 

[sistermagpie]

55 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I think they can also sing with other women too. 

Sorry, yes, they definitely can. Don't know why I left that out! 

55 minutes ago, Elizzikra said:

I did take issue with Allan's statement that he had shown more empathy to a serial killer than he had his own son. There is a certain amount of survival strategy going on with his not pissing off the killer holding him captive in the basement and, although I think Beth behaved badly, I don't necessarily think that Allan was wrong to be angry that Ezra left Beth on her deathbed, refusing to grant her dying wish. 

Yes, and even before he was in physical danger, Sam was his patient. He's paying him to help him figure out his psychological issues. While obviously it's disrespectful to tell Ezra he's wasting his life, it seems like it would be condescending to treat him like a patient too!

Btw, re: Beth saying he was joining a cult, I did think that moment was funny just because of Ezra's response that she didn't have an authentic relationship with God. Because in my mind I added, "...he replied cultishly." 

[gesundheit]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

Beth actually said, in a flashback, that she felt Ezra was "joining a cult." 
I wonder if there's this experience in many, if not all, religions. I grew up Catholic, in a sort of moderately devout family (observing some traditions but not super strict). There was a nearby parish that eventually became cult-like. Members all moved to the same neighborhoods (some leaving our neighborhood to join the migration); their entire lives revolved around that particular parish (not the Catholic Church/faith generally but that specific congregation); church leadership heavily influenced the choice of romantic partners by multiple congregants - all while the parish maintained its "membership" and identity as a part of the Catholic Church. That one church was pretty widely considered to be a cult. Even within the mainstream Catholic Church, some less devout members may consider more devout members (for example, those who insist on attending Latin Mass or who strictly observe Lenten restrictions, almost cult-like in their devotion.

Yes, I think there are extremist cults in many faiths. Kind of like your mainstream Mormons vs the FLDS. Those are not minor differences along some reasonable spectrum.

[Faceplant]

1 hour ago, Elizzikra said:

Not to be argumentative, but I think the boss had left the restaurant when Sam approached him. There could be cameras outside or something but I don't think Sam actually went in the restaurant.

Yes, you're right. I think his boss had just picked up takeout from a restaurant or had just finished dinner and Sam approached him just as he was leaving and there were people around. I could be wrong because I tend to have this on more as a background show. Seems like the restaurant or other businesses in the area might have cameras. It would be easy enough for the police to track his final movements and location based on the pickup order/payment method. Also, his car is likely parked in the area. I don't know if his murder would be linked to Elias since there is no body. Sam hid his body somewhere while he left his boss right there next to the trash bin.  

Edited October 14, 2022 by Faceplant
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[Milburn Stone]

It's hard not to get into the real-world tensions between Orthodox and non-Orthodox Jews because the show is all about that. Let me say that I totally understand Alan/Beth's rage, and in fact am somewhat "triggered" by it. (In the way that all good drama triggers emotions in us by touching parts of us that identify.) Here's why I think the non-Orthodox sometimes feel antipathy toward the Orthodox (and why Alan and Beth feel real to me in their antipathy): because the non-Orthodox sometimes get the message loud and clear from the Orthodox that they, the non-Orthodox, are "less than." In Israel, non-Orthodox Jews who try to worship at the Western Wall often find themselves harassed by the Orthodox. Reform Jewish marriages in Israel are not recognized as valid by the Orthodox. Heck, Reform Jews, in Israel and outside it, are not even recognized as Jewish by many Orthodox! What would be nice is if everybody could respect everybody else. "You be Jewish your way, I'll be Jewish my way, and we'll all get along." But no. Too often, the Orthodox reject that there is any way to be Jewish but theirs; at least, this is the perception (girded by plenty of evidence) held by many of the non-Orthodox. Given this, I think both Alan and Ezra, in challenging their own positions, are growing tremendously.

[peeayebee]

This is such an interesting discussion I decided to step into the waters. 

I always enjoy watching shows or movies that give an insight into a religion or culture that I'm not too familiar with.

Like others, at first I was puzzled when Ezra's son went to his room after Ezra put down the candy, but I think the son was upset about his grandfather's disappearance, not upset with his father. He probably recognized that Ezra's bringing candy home was a result of the pain his father felt, doing something against his own religion, that he (Ezra) did this because of his own grief. Maybe it suggested desperation, which made the son emotional and even more worried about his grandfather.

15 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I did take issue with Allan's statement that he had shown more empathy to a serial killer than he had his own son. There is a certain amount of survival strategy going on with his not pissing off the killer holding him captive in the basement and, although I think Beth behaved badly, I don't necessarily think that Allan was wrong to be angry that Ezra left Beth on her deathbed, refusing to grant her dying wish. 

I agree that Alan is treading carefully with Sam. No one wants to piss off a serial killer. But I think it is true that he has shown Sam more empathy than he did Ezra. He wants to help Sam, partially for survival but also because that's his job, that's what he does. It doesn't appear that he has wanted to help Ezra, at least not recently or even since Ezra became an Orthodox Jew. His anger and resentment toward his son has kept him from even trying to be empathetic.

It was interesting hearing him sharpening the foot cream tube during his sessions with his dead therapist. 

When he says about Ezra, "Your way of looking at the world had to be the only way. Everyone else is wrong," it reminded me of my own brother who years ago (40 yrs?) became a born again Christian. Of course he thought his beliefs were true, and therefore if you believed otherwise you were wrong and would go to hell. Because he loved us and didn't want us to go to hell, he wanted to convert us. My dad and my sister were having none of it, and neither was I, but I also understood why he wanted us to believe as he did. I thought he was in a tough situation. 

How many days have passed since Sam kidnapped Alan? He says to Alan, "These have been the worst three days of my life. Two people in three days." I guess he was just talking about the time span betw his killing Elias and killing Kyle.

Domhnall Gleeson is so good in this, appropriately. He is so different from other roles I've seen him in. I didn't recall that he was Bill Weasley in the Harry Potter movies.

I see that he's 39, but he looks younger. He makes me think of Kevin from 'We Need To Talk About Kevin.'

The grossest thing in this show so far has been watching Sam put ketchup on his hot dog. Bleech.

BTW, is there any significance to Ezra listening to Call Me Al in his car? Or even his playing Country Roads on his mom's guitar? Are there any rules about secular music for Orthodox Jews?

[Elizzikra]

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Or even his playing Country Roads on his mom's guitar?

Allan sang that to Elias when he was first brought to the basement by Sam, I think. Now, after hearing Ezra sing it, I am thinking it's something maybe the family sang on car rides, or something they sang at bedtime to the kids when they were little? Also in the flashback to Allan taking Beth's guitar to Ezra, Ezra said he no longer played or he hadn't played in a long time.

I wonder if both buying the candy and playing the guitar are Ezra's ways of trying to connect to his missing father? Or little amends, even though Allan is missing and doesn't know about them? With Allan missing, I think Ezra is feeling the weight of both his parents being gone and perhaps wishing he hadn't pushed them away (not that they didn't also push him away).

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Like others, at first I was puzzled when Ezra's son went to his room after Ezra put down the candy, but I think the son was upset about his grandfather's disappearance, not upset with his father. He probably recognized that Ezra's bringing candy home was a result of the pain his father felt, doing something against his own religion, that he (Ezra) did this because of his own grief. Maybe it suggested desperation, which made the son emotional and even more worried about his grandfather.

18 hours ago, Elizzikra said:

I just don't see why there would be non-kosher candy for sale in a kosher deli. I think it was a compromise--he wasn't breaking kosher for his dad (and so not angry at or blaming his religious practices), but he was trying to be lest strict.

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

Of course he thought his beliefs were true, and therefore if you believed otherwise you were wrong and would go to hell. Because he loved us and didn't want us to go to hell, he wanted to convert us. My dad and my sister were having none of it, and neither was I, but I also understood why he wanted us to believe as he did. I thought he was in a tough situation. 

And that's a powerful tool for the group that the person belongs to. The main practical gain from, for instance, having people prosletyze is it sets them up for awkward to hostile interactions with others, which reinforces the desire to stay with the group and the us vs. them view of the world. It's not an efficient way of converting people. Like even in your brother's case, he loves you and doesn't want you to go to hell, but he's not questioning your having earned eternal torment by not listening, 

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

I just don't see why there would be non-kosher candy for sale in a kosher deli. I think it was a compromise--he wasn't breaking kosher for his dad (and so not angry at or blaming his religious practices), but he was trying to be lest strict.

Yes, I'm sure the candy was kosher. I thought when Alan's wife Beth served the ice cream for the other grandkids, Ezra's children couldn't have any because it was against their religion. I guess I leapt to the conclusion that Orthodox Jews don't eat sweets. In that flashback, was the issue that Beth was serving non-kosher ice cream? Educate me. 

[sistermagpie]

6 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

Yes, I'm sure the candy was kosher. I thought when Alan's wife Beth served the ice cream for the other grandkids, Ezra's children couldn't have any because it was against their religion. I guess I leapt to the conclusion that Orthodox Jews don't eat sweets. In that flashback, was the issue that Beth was serving non-kosher ice cream? Educate me. 

I'm open to correction, but I think while there is kosher ice cream, there is a rule about serving dairy after certain meals, like with meat. So it might have been that as well. And I think they were even sundaes so there might have been a lot in them that weren't kosher, even if the dairy wasn't a non-starter and even if it was kosher ice cream.

[Eureka]

On 10/12/2022 at 11:11 PM, sistermagpie said:

Sorry, that was my bad. I should have known she was a cantor--though I don't know the nuances either. I did get that the problem was that she was singing in mixed company. That doesn't make it better to me.

I thought his wife was wearing a wig--another aspect I don't know the nuances of but know is a thing. It looked like one to me. 

Definitely looked like a wig, which is what orthodox women do after they get married.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

Yes, I'm sure the candy was kosher. I thought when Alan's wife Beth served the ice cream for the other grandkids, Ezra's children couldn't have any because it was against their religion. I guess I leapt to the conclusion that Orthodox Jews don't eat sweets. In that flashback, was the issue that Beth was serving non-kosher ice cream? Educate me. 

It was bugging me so I googled it. There is kosher ice cream and it is considered not kosher to have ice cream (dairy) after a meal containing meat.

[violetwaves]

23 hours ago, gesundheit said:

Yes, I think there are extremist cults in many faiths. Kind of like your mainstream Mormons vs the FLDS. Those are not minor differences along some reasonable spectrum.

This comment and further comments about Israel and such are maybe what this series was going for. I was hoping they weren’t painting Orthodox Jews in the us as some sort of cult but apparently a lot of viewers are seeing them that way. It is disappointing to me especially this month with a lot of the high holy days, especially after I’ve been hosted by a Jewish orthodox family who knows I’m atheist and still welcomed me with open arms. The comparison (not in the quoted text) of Orthodox Jews to born again Christians is not a fair comparison at all knowing what I know about Orthodox Jews.

[peeayebee]

53 minutes ago, violetwaves said:

The comparison (not in the quoted text) of Orthodox Jews to born again Christians is not a fair comparison at all knowing what I know about Orthodox Jews.

You seem to be referring to my post. I wasn't comparing Orthodox Jews to born-again Christians. Alan said Ezra thought everyone who didn't believe as he did was wrong, so I shared my experience with my brother who seemed to have that POV. Now, just because Alan said that's what Ezra thought doesn't mean Ezra did think that way. I am not judging Orthodox Jews based on what Alan says. His is a very flawed and biased viewpoint. I shared the story of my born-again Christian brother because he was actively trying to convince us that his beliefs were the only way to go. I don't think Ezra had ever done that, but this is how Alan saw him.

[The Mighty Peanut]

I still like it. There are weird little moments that make it real to me. Like when Alan is having his therapy fantasy and trying to come to terms with his past resentments so he can get ready for his own murder, and they got into that debate over whether saying "best kosher steak" secretly really was him being shady on some subconscious level (assuming Alan's mentor is really Alan talking with himself). 

I also thought it was interesting how willing the manager was to do something he was clearly sketched out by because of social conventions. Don't dare say no to this super bad vibe guy because he wants to take you to see this thing he saw that he wants you to see too and then that way you'll both have seen it. Don't piss of Sam the actual serial killer who is already pissed off enough to kill you over some other stupid thing.

[Dminches]

On 10/13/2022 at 2:25 PM, sistermagpie said:

The sister, btw, added an interesting note, I thought, too. She's clearly not as angry at Ezra and just told him to get some rest and promised to put up the rest of the fliers, but at the same time doesn't seem like he'd consider her to be on "his side" about his conversion.

I do think there is a big difference between parents accepting their child's "unpopular" decision and a sibling doing the same.  While Ezra's sister may not agree with his conversion to Orthodoxy, it doesn't have the same impact on her life as it does to Alan and Beth.

[Elizzikra]

Quote

It is disappointing to me especially this month with a lot of the high holy days, especially after I’ve been hosted by a Jewish orthodox family who knows I’m atheist and still welcomed me with open arms. The comparison (not in the quoted text) of Orthodox Jews to born again Christians is not a fair comparison at all knowing what I know about Orthodox Jews.

I didn't mean to be offensive. I don't know much at all about Judaism and in particular Orthodox Judaism. I did not meant to disparage them in any way. What I was trying to comment on was whether it was common in various faiths for subgroups to think so negatively about other subgroups, to the point of thinking of them as cults. 

[sistermagpie]

18 hours ago, peeayebee said:

You seem to be referring to my post. I wasn't comparing Orthodox Jews to born-again Christians. Alan said Ezra thought everyone who didn't believe as he did was wrong, so I shared my experience with my brother who seemed to have that POV. Now, just because Alan said that's what Ezra thought doesn't mean Ezra did think that way. I am not judging Orthodox Jews based on what Alan says. His is a very flawed and biased viewpoint. I shared the story of my born-again Christian brother because he was actively trying to convince us that his beliefs were the only way to go. I don't think Ezra had ever done that, but this is how Alan saw him.

FWIW, I thought you were pretty clear about the comparison you were making. Born again Christians and Orthodox Jews are two completely different groups that have totally different practices, but that doesn't mean it's offensive to ever compare them to each other, or note anything that's the same. Both are capable of nice interactions with outsiders.

But I think the show's done a good job of just showing us this one particular family. It's obviously just relying on the audience to get stuff without having someone explain things like, "Hey, Beth, why are you serving ice cream when you know Ezra's kids can't eat it?" And when Alan and Ezra are having a change of heart in this ep it's about them wanting to not be angry at each other, not because Ezra's realized that keeping kosher is bad or Alan realized that women singing in front of men is disrespectful.

Edited October 15, 2022 by sistermagpie

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m really enjoying the comments on this thread.  Perhaps more intriguing than the show, lol

One of my best friends is Jewish.  She’s religious, but moderately so. Lol. She has some extended family members who are Orthodox. I’m no expert, but I think that the correct term, due to her description of how they bring their own food to all family gatherings, vacations, etc,  It’s highly disruptive, but everyone accommodates their schedules, rules and conditions.  They didn’t used to be that way…just happened a few years ago.  I’m going to recommend this show to her, though she doesn’t like violence.  
 

Ref. Country Roads the song.  I became a John Denver fan as a child and probably know the words to every single he ever released.  I’m going out on a limb here, but I wonder if this song was selected due to the following: I’m putting this in spoilers simply because it hasn’t appeared in the show.  It’s just my suspicion. I watch a lot of crime shows, so that’s why I went there, I suppose.  

Spoiler

Country Roads was the theme song for the series Clarice, which was based on the serial killer interviewer (Jodie Foster) from the FBI in the movie Silence of The Lambs.  In Clarice, the series, she is tracking a killer after locating the body of a missing person, who was found encased in concrete. It is by Brain Carlyle and has a much different vibe than Denver’s version.  Just something to consider.  

It’s rather haunting.  
 

Edited October 15, 2022 by SunnyBeBe