S01.E07: Driftmark

[LadyChaos]

38 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

I'm not disputing her reasons for resentment, but there were multiple posts saying she was in the right to demand an eye for an eye even after she snapped, which does seem like a denial that she is less than wholly hinged, rational, and morally righteous.

Because she never actually had pre-marital sex with him. (And I see no reason to infer offscreen fornication when Viserys was deep in mourning for the wife he actually loved.) The real moral hypocrisy is harboring two different murderers as allies, one a proud kinslayer. It's pretty fucked to think murder is less a sin than sex. Then there's the way she is now disrespecting and disobeying Viserys at every turn, no longer the meek and dutiful ladylike consort. One does not need to sleep around to not be "coloring inside the lines".

Ali absolutely knew what her father's intentions were, though. Hence her being uncomfortable and biting her nails every time he sent her to woo Viserys. And more glaringly, trying to help Rhaenyra mourn her mother in prayer and get her used to the idea of a stepmother at the same time. She was naive, but not some clueless idiot.

It's not just whether Rhaenyra would see them as political threats (which has little to do with honor or consideration and more with political reality) but whether she's fine with open kinslaying. Even Larys is not trumpeting his kinslaying because it's the worst crime there is, far above any adultery or fornication. The Night's Watch is a peaceful way to remove any rival lords/kings and disinherit any men. (Also the Citadel and the Faith, which are both headquartered in Oldtown, so maybe not the safest means of removal. Same goes for the Kingsguard at court, even if there were an opening in the seven there.) I don't really blame Alicent for not wanting her sons to be forced into exile or the Night's Watch, I'm just arguing the probabilities of Rhaenyra going straight for open kinslaying right away.

Rhaenyra is not a great person, but having sex which does not directly hurt Alicent is a far cry from already planning to slay her half-brothers. Yes, she has been in the stronger position with the king's favor, and the proposol for Jace/Helaena was in her own self-interest. But she has to know that position will all change as soon as Viserys dies, yet she has done nothing to consolidate her own position against her half-brothers. Instead she respected Viserys's wishes for a happy family by allowing her sons to grow up friends with Aegon. All while Alicent was already doing all she could to get Rhaenyra's sons out of the way. She hasn't consolidated Aegon's position either, but that seems to be more down to a lack of cunning than a lack of will, as well as Visery's own will.

Up until that confrontation in the Driftmark throne room where Ali pulled that knife on her, Rhaenyra was still defending her stepmother as not capable of murder. That attitude only changed in the wee hours of that night when battle lines were drawn and first blood was shed. The murder plot was a response to that and there's no sign Rhaenyra was ready for any murder plots before that. And not that that random servant deserved to die (and I do think he was definitely an innocent, Laenor's honor is more graded on a curve compared to Daemon's), but it is relevant that the victim was an unrelated stranger. And while people may suspect Rhaenyra's guilt, that's different than everyone openly knowing it. And I'd wager a lot of people might suspect Daemon arranged it without her knowledge, as he's a man and in particular a man known to be severely lacking in honor and already suspected of facilitating his second marriage by killing his first wife. (So, yeah, Daemon is absolutely a danger to all the greens, but the argument is whether Rhaenyra was equally dangerous on her own or married to Laenor. Alicent could not really have foreseen the death of "Laenor" or Rhaenyra marrying Daemon.)

I think at this point, up till first blood was shed....its been clear that Rhaenyra was only acting in defense with regards to Alicent. But plotting with Daemon and Laenor to fake Laenor's death was the first time she reacted offensively. She cares about Daemon, loves him even....but the reality is, while Aemond claiming Vhagar took the greens dragon count up to 3...Rhaenyra losing Laenor caused her to lose 1, but marrying Daemon gave her 3 more dragon riders..once Rheana claims a dragon, to total of 6....not including whether Joffery claims a dragon or what side Rhaenys will side with.

[Oscirus]

10 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I never mentioned bullying. I was specifically responding to dismantle a remark about Aemond's behaviour being characterised as 'getting back at' that group of children. If the rationale for his uncalled for initial nastiness was because he wanted to 'get back' at someone, he should have proactively chosen the instigator long before now. But he didn't because the actual instigator of the previous incident is bigger and older than him and in a 1v1 he'd have his butt kicked. Simples. 

All he did was talk shit, he wasnt violent until they started. He did worse to his brother in that scene with the king

[Oscirus]

Rhae just legit thought they were playing a political game and she was outmaneuvering Alicent until Alicent showed she wasnt playing anymore with that slice.  Likely the first time she legit felt threatened.  Still don't get how having the rumor of being responsible for the death of one of her allies kids benefits her, but it is what it is at this point.

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Ah, so you admit that two under-10yo non-bastard girls had a right to be upset when one was told she was only fit to ride a pig? 😉 

In modern times, children are taught that whatever somebody else says to them and however bad they feel because of them, it's wrong to react with violence. If they do and seriously hurt somebody, they are taken by custody or, if they are old enough, punished in court.  

Aristocrats irl had different views. To them, if you are insulted, you must react with violence and revenge the insult. If you don't, you lose your honor. The reason was that in this kind of world, the words were taken seriously: "go to hell" was meant literally. If you were called "a pig" or "a bastard" and you didn't react with violence, you admitted that the words were true.

[steelyis]

I was just reminded Rhaenyra demanded her brother be

Spoiler

questioned sharply.

I forgot what questioned sharply really means and realize now she wanted to have her little brother who just lost his fucking eye tortured, possibly to death over something she knows is true and couldn't be proven or disproven anyway. That's fucked up.

So, yeah, no, fuck her and her shitty brats. And fuck Viserys too. He really do be playing favorites.

[ybrik]

1 hour ago, steelyis said:

I was just reminded Rhaenyra demanded her brother be

  Reveal spoiler

questioned sharply.

I forgot what questioned sharply really means and realize now she wanted to have her little brother who just lost his fucking eye tortured, possibly to death over something she knows is true and couldn't be proven or disproven anyway. That's fucked up.

So, yeah, no, fuck her and her shitty brats. And fuck Viserys too. He really do be playing favorites.

That video was a well thought out take but I feel it ignores a couple of important points that kind of changes the perspective. 

First Rhaenyra doesn’t just try to throw her brother, Aemond, under the bus automatically. She is told by her kids that Aemond called them bastards as they are all yelling at each other on who started it. Rhaenyra after this says this was an accident. She tries to deescalate the situation without anything else happening. Alicent doesn’t accept this and says that Luke was trying to murder Aemond and that was why the dagger was brought. Alicent is basically accusing Rhaenyra’s son of premeditated attempted murder. This is when Rhaenyra turns the argument with bringing up Aemond calling her kids bastards. I take her asking for Aemond to questioned sharply as a way to get Alicent to back the hell off accusing her son of attempted murder. 

Why do I think this was meant for Alicent and not her actually wanting her brother tortured? She knows Aemond isn’t just getting these ideas from no where. She knows Alicent is behind it. 

Also she knows her father and knows that there is no way he would actually torture his own son. What in this whole show has shown us to believe that Viserys would actually call for his child to be tortured? Hell look at everything Daemon has done and the worst Viserys did was kick him after he thought Daemon had defiled his daughter. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by ybrik

[steelyis]

1 minute ago, ybrik said:

That video was a well thought out take but I feel it ignores a couple of important points that kind of changes the perspective. 

First Rhaenyra doesn’t just try to through her brother, Aemond, under the bus automatically. She is told by her kids that Aemond called them bastards as they are all yelling at each other on who started it. Rhaenyra after this says this was an accident. She tries to deescalate the situation without anything else happening. Alicent doesn’t accept this and says that Luke was trying to murder Aemond and that was why the dagger was brought. Alicent is basically accusing Rhaenyra’s son of premeditated attempted murder. This is when Rhaenyra turns the argument with bringing up Aemond calling her kids bastards. I take her asking for Aemond to questioned sharply as a way to get Alicent to back the hell off accusing her son of attempted murder. 

Why do I think this was meant for Alicent and not her actually wanting her brother tortured? She knows Aemond isn’t just getting these ideas from no where. She knows Alicent is behind it. 

Also she knows her father and knows that there is no way he would actually torture his own son. What in this whole show has shown us to believe that Viserys would actually call for his child to be tortured? Hell look at everything Daemon has done and the worst Viserys did was kick him after he thought Daemon had defiled his daughter. 

Even making the suggestion of torturing a child--of anyone--but especially a child, is pure, plain evil. Full-stop. There are zero excuses for it. Period.

So, no, agree to disagree.

[Avabelle]

9 hours ago, go4luca said:

I have a question.  For all of Alicent's holier than though attitude towards Rhaenyra, why was it okay for Alicent, wearing her dead Mother's dress no less, to "comfort" the King and whatever that may have entailed off screen, ahead of marriage?

Because she’s Alicent and the rules don’t apply to her. She doesn’t have the self awareness to understand she’s a hypocritical witch.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, ybrik said:

Also she knows her father and knows that there is no way he would actually torture his own son. What in this whole show has shown us to believe that Viserys would actually call for his child to be tortured? Hell look at everything Daemon has done and the worst Viserys did was kick him after he thought Daemon had defiled his daughter. 

Yes, we knew already that Viserys is a weakling and a fool. He hadn't acted as the King should have and that' the chief reason why things have escalated this far.

He could, and should, have chosen either or two options.

1) Viserys has chosen Rhaenyra as his heir. If he thinks that he has chosen rightly, it's his duty to defend her, her honor and her position. When his wife called Rhaenyra's children bastards, he should have punished her for treason or at least abandon her. Or at least now he should have punished Aemond. 

2) If, however, Viserys thinks that Rhaenyra has shown to be unsuitable to become Queen or her children have no right to crown, he should have reversed his decision. Or at least now he should have do it as well as punish Luke for causing Aemond a severe bodily harm. 

Yes, it's difficult chose either his daughter and his grandchildren or his wife and his children, but Viserys isn't only a husband, father and grandfather but the king who must do such choices, because not choosing will eventually cause more harm.   

Edited October 6, 2022 by Roseanna
adding a letter

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, steelyis said:

Even making the suggestion of torturing a child--of anyone--but especially a child, is pure, plain evil. Full-stop. There are zero excuses for it. Period.

Of course, but so is murder.  

Daemon led his men to murder people and he murdered his first wife. Rhaenyra doesn't know it, but if she has any sense, she must suspect it. And yet she married him and evidently also loves him.

Alicent has an ally and helper who murdered his father and brother. She was horrified about it, but evidently she has now realized and accepted that she will need him in the future. 

I see no sense to ponder what is "right" and "wrong" in this violent universe where doing right has no value in the power game - at least if you don't get allies with that.  

[Chicago Redshirt]

12 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I'm not disputing her reasons for resentment, but there were multiple posts saying she was in the right to demand an eye for an eye even after she snapped, which does seem like a denial that she is less than wholly hinged, rational, and morally righteous.

Because she never actually had pre-marital sex with him. (And I see no reason to infer offscreen fornication when Viserys was deep in mourning for the wife he actually loved.) The real moral hypocrisy is harboring two different murderers as allies, one a proud kinslayer. It's pretty fucked to think murder is less a sin than sex. Then there's the way she is now disrespecting and disobeying Viserys at every turn, no longer the meek and dutiful ladylike consort. One does not need to sleep around to not be "coloring inside the lines".

Ali absolutely knew what her father's intentions were, though. Hence her being uncomfortable and biting her nails every time he sent her to woo Viserys. And more glaringly, trying to help Rhaenyra mourn her mother in prayer and get her used to the idea of a stepmother at the same time. She was naive, but not some clueless idiot.

It's not just whether Rhaenyra would see them as political threats (which has little to do with honor or consideration and more with political reality) but whether she's fine with open kinslaying. Even Larys is not trumpeting his kinslaying because it's the worst crime there is, far above any adultery or fornication. The Night's Watch is a peaceful way to remove any rival lords/kings and disinherit any men. (Also the Citadel and the Faith, which are both headquartered in Oldtown, so maybe not the safest means of removal. Same goes for the Kingsguard at court, even if there were an opening in the seven there.) I don't really blame Alicent for not wanting her sons to be forced into exile or the Night's Watch, I'm just arguing the probabilities of Rhaenyra going straight for open kinslaying right away.

Rhaenyra is not a great person, but having sex which does not directly hurt Alicent is a far cry from already planning to slay her half-brothers. Yes, she has been in the stronger position with the king's favor, and the proposol for Jace/Helaena was in her own self-interest. But she has to know that position will all change as soon as Viserys dies, yet she has done nothing to consolidate her own position against her half-brothers. Instead she respected Viserys's wishes for a happy family by allowing her sons to grow up friends with Aegon. All while Alicent was already doing all she could to get Rhaenyra's sons out of the way. She hasn't consolidated Aegon's position either, but that seems to be more down to a lack of cunning than a lack of will, as well as Visery's own will.

Up until that confrontation in the Driftmark throne room where Ali pulled that knife on her, Rhaenyra was still defending her stepmother as not capable of murder. That attitude only changed in the wee hours of that night when battle lines were drawn and first blood was shed. The murder plot was a response to that and there's no sign Rhaenyra was ready for any murder plots before that. And not that that random servant deserved to die (and I do think he was definitely an innocent, Laenor's honor is more graded on a curve compared to Daemon's), but it is relevant that the victim was an unrelated stranger. And while people may suspect Rhaenyra's guilt, that's different than everyone openly knowing it. And I'd wager a lot of people might suspect Daemon arranged it without her knowledge, as he's a man and in particular a man known to be severely lacking in honor and already suspected of facilitating his second marriage by killing his first wife. (So, yeah, Daemon is absolutely a danger to all the greens, but the argument is whether Rhaenyra was equally dangerous on her own or married to Laenor. Alicent could not really have foreseen the death of "Laenor" or Rhaenyra marrying Daemon.)

"An eye for an eye" had been considered an appropriate moral code in the real world for centuries, and I'm sure it still is for millions of people. It apparently is also the way of thinking among at least some Westerosi. So I don't think Ali wanting that form of justice is inherently unhinged, or people here saying or suggesting that it was OK for her to want that form of justice are saying that she wasn't unhinged. Unrealistic to think that Viserys with his weak ass would deliver it, maybe. But it's not a crazy notion that there should be some greater form of punishment than "let's hug it out." It is a perfectly rational and arguably moral stance to take (albeit I personally subscribe to the notion that an eye for an eye will just leave the whole world blind).

I don't think it is hypocrisy to accept that there are going to have to be moral compromises in the Game of Thrones, or to ally with murderers. Hypocrisy is preaching one thing and doing another. It would be hypocrisy for Ali to say "Rhae shouldn't be allied with Daemon because he's an evil killer" and then to go ally herself with evil killers. It is certainly a debatable moral choice for Ali to ally herself with Larys and Cris (one which I would say makes sense for the character and is justifiable in general). But even if one deems it immoral, that immorality isn't hypocritical unless you more broadly define Ali's character to be something that it's not. She's not claiming to be a septa or someone who is abides by immaculate code. She is someone who is bitter and jealous of Rhae, but also scared of her because she believes Rhae will likely murder her children if Rhae feels she needs to. 

I am not ready to read in Ali's knowledge of her father's design based on her chewing on her fingernails. The nervousness could be the result of numerous things: awkwardness at being in the presence of a mourning adult in general, actual feelings she had been developing for the king, or just a general habit that she had. By the time she talked to Rhae about a stepmother, I assume that things had progressed to the point where she believed she might be the stepmother, but again, that doesn't mean she was complicit in Evil Otto's plan.

I don't think the argument should be whether Rhae would go for kinslaying as Plan A or as a last resort. The argument is whether kinslaying is on the table for Rhae if it means securing her power. I think both we the audience and Ali are right to conclude that it absolutely is. I suppose we should get a better grasp on why Ali thinks having her kids take the black or join the clergy, or marry Rhae's kids are options she is rejecting. So far it seems to come down to bitterness and Rhae being immoral and unstrustworthy.

I'm not sure what constitutes Ali doing "all she could" to get Rhae's sons out of the way. All I remember seeing her do is bitch and moan to Larys, Cris and by implication her kids that Rhae's kids are bastards.

I am likewise unaware of times when Rhae defended Ali to anyone. I don't read the murder plot as being a response to a new threat from Ali. Rather, it was just Rhae wants to marry Daemon but cannot while Laenor is still alive since the realm would not accept a polygamous marriage. So Laenor has to "die" in order to allow Rhae and Dae to be together. We the audience know enough about Rhae and Dae's character to know that both are willing to kill and to have people kill for a wide range of reasons. It is probably a safe presumption that Larys and therefore Ali suspect that Dae killed his first wife, and know about various other Daemon shenanigans over the years. Ali didn't need to know about any particular murder to strongly suspect that Rhae is fully capable of murder if she feels it will achieve her goals.

[bluvelvet]

I’m team Black for now. To be honest I think both sides are horrible. Alicent is holier than thou and has stroked the flames of discord between her kids and Rhaenyra’s. Rhaenyra should’ve known better than to have THREE bastard children, she has access to moon tea and should’ve used it. I also don’t think Rhaenyra would make a good queen from what I’ve seen so far.  She seems too ruled by per passions. Of the kids I think Rhaenyra’s are miles above Alicent’s, although that may change in the future.  And while mileage may vary I fully place blame on Aemond for that fight, he was clearly an instigator in my opinion.  I also don’t think Aegon up on this point had any interest in being king. 

[Meredith Quill]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

All he did was talk shit, he wasnt violent until they started. He did worse to his brother in that scene with the king

I refer you to my previous statement; chat shit, get hit. Something that still applies in the world today to a large extent (rightly or wrongly).

6 hours ago, steelyis said:

Even making the suggestion of torturing a child--of anyone--but especially a child, is pure, plain evil. Full-stop. There are zero excuses for it. Period.

So, no, agree to disagree.

How about asking for a child's eye to be plucked out? Are there any excuses for that? Is that pure, plain evil? Asking for a friend.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, ybrik said:

First Rhaenyra doesn’t just try to throw her brother, Aemond, under the bus automatically. She is told by her kids that Aemond called them bastards as they are all yelling at each other on who started it. Rhaenyra after this says this was an accident. She tries to deescalate the situation without anything else happening. Alicent doesn’t accept this and says that Luke was trying to murder Aemond and that was why the dagger was brought. Alicent is basically accusing Rhaenyra’s son of premeditated attempted murder. This is when Rhaenyra turns the argument with bringing up Aemond calling her kids bastards. I take her asking for Aemond to questioned sharply as a way to get Alicent to back the hell off accusing her son of attempted murder. 

A good analysis but it leaves out that the situation of Rhaenyra and Alicent isn't similar. Alicent's son was severely hurt by Rhaenyra's son. So it's Rhaenyra's best interests to calm down the situation. She would hardly behaved in the same way if her son was hurt by Alicent's son.

Of course their behavior is also partly due to their different character. Alicent shows openly her negative feelings and also acts openly and tries stubbornly and often unwisely. Instead, Rhaenyra is devious, has better self-control and acts in secret.    

[Constantinople]

13 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I refer you to my previous statement; chat shit, get hit. Something that still applies in the world today to a large extent (rightly or wrongly).

How is telling the truth talking chit?

After Laena's funeral Have is complaining to Rhaenyra that he can't mourn for for his father Harwin Strong.

[Meredith Quill]

26 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

How is telling the truth talking chit?

After Laena's funeral Have is complaining to Rhaenyra that he can't mourn for for his father Harwin Strong.

Hmm, let's see, just because something may or may not be true doesn't indicate it isn't said spitefully aka talking shit. So, prior to any violent reaction;

1. "Your mother is dead" to children who literally just buried their mother that day - if you don't see why that is spiteful then I don't know what to tell you.

2. The pig comment - how is that 'truth'?

After the fighting began, he continued to shit talk;

1. The you will die like your father comment - more truth?

2. Calling them bastards (whether true or not this was a spiteful comment designed to hurt and demean aka shit talking).

Shit talking is as much about intent and context rather than looking at the words spoken in a vacuum, but I'm sure you already know that.

[LadyChaos]

8 hours ago, steelyis said:

I was just reminded Rhaenyra demanded her brother be

  Hide contents

questioned sharply.

I forgot what questioned sharply really means and realize now she wanted to have her little brother who just lost his fucking eye tortured, possibly to death over something she knows is true and couldn't be proven or disproven anyway. That's fucked up.

So, yeah, no, fuck her and her shitty brats. And fuck Viserys too. He really do be playing favorites.

I would just like to point out, having watched the video, that 'question sharply' being a euphemism for turture, is speculation not fact.

[LadyChaos]

6 hours ago, Avabelle said:

Because she’s Alicent and the rules don’t apply to her. She doesn’t have the self awareness to understand she’s a hypocritical witch.

Don't forget that its okay to have two murderers in her employ....but Rhaenyra enjoying sex and committing adultery, with the obvious consent of her husband.....OMG! 

[Constantinople]

3 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I would just like to point out, having watched the video, that 'question sharply' being a euphemism for turture, is speculation not fact.

Then what does "sharply" mean?

[LadyChaos]

4 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Yes, it's difficult chose either his daughter and his grandchildren or his wife and his children, but Viserys isn't only a husband, father and grandfather but the king who must do such choices, because not choosing will eventually cause more harm.   

Of all the Targeryen's we've met, I think Viserys is by far the most passive. And its been to the detriment of the kingdom. If he'd been more assertive, Otto wouldn't have been able to get his claws into him.

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I see no sense to ponder what is "right" and "wrong" in this violent universe where doing right has no value in the power game - at least if you don't get allies with that.  

This...this right here. I mean with the exception of Viserys I and Maester Aemon, I think all the Targaeryens we've seen so far between HOTD and GOT are bloodthirsty sociopaths....but so are most of the other people around them. Most of them are horrible person...we're really just arguing over who we like more. LOL.

1 hour ago, SilverStormm said:

I refer you to my previous statement; chat shit, get hit. Something that still applies in the world today to a large extent (rightly or wrongly).

How about asking for a child's eye to be plucked out? Are there any excuses for that? Is that pure, plain evil? Asking for a friend.

I mean...not to mention a recent movie/show (or two) where a woman beat up (or tried to) a man that was sexually harassing her....and everybody thought it was great....and that was an adult....instead of 4 kids whose frontal cortex hadn't fully developed yet.

4 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Then what does "sharply" mean?

Could mean anything, thats the point. Its meaning is not stated in the books or show, implied maybe....but we can only speculate. 

[Nicmar]

On 10/2/2022 at 11:46 PM, Dac22 said:

Matt Daemon

😂

[Constantinople]

4 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Could mean anything, thats the point. Its meaning is not stated in the books or show, implied maybe....but we can only speculate. 

If sharply could mean anything, then why say it at all?

[Meredith Quill]

58 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Then what does "sharply" mean?

40 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Could mean anything, thats the point. Its meaning is not stated in the books or show, implied maybe....but we can only speculate. 

28 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

If sharply could mean anything, then why say it at all?

I don't think it could mean literally anything but obviously it could be a synonym for many things like, 'pointedly', 'harshly', 'strictly' - which is how I took it at the time tbh.

[Oscirus]

Im sure if aegon died and rhaena claimed sunfyre, that if  Rhaena said similar things to Aemond that his beating her ass wouldnt have in no way been justified. Def wouldnt have been using the phrase talk shit, get hit to justify it

[Meredith Quill]

2 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Im sure if aegon died and rhaena claimed sunfyre, that if  Rhaena said similar things to Aemond that his beating her ass wouldnt have in no way been justified. Def wouldnt have been using the phrase talk shit, get hit to justify it

We can only comment on what actually transpired on the show. I'm not going to create other equally hypothetical scenarios to prove a point.

[proserpina65]

15 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

once Rheana claims a dragon, to total of 6

Assuming she does, which is not a given.  Her egg never hatched and at the moment there are no unclaimed dragons flying around except for Laenor's and since he's not actually dead, I'm not sure if his dragon can be claimed by someone else.  So, depending on what happens with Seasmoke, she may never get a dragon.

Edited October 6, 2022 by proserpina65
edited for clarity

[steelyis]

2 hours ago, SilverStormm said:

I refer you to my previous statement; chat shit, get hit. Something that still applies in the world today to a large extent (rightly or wrongly).

How about asking for a child's eye to be plucked out? Are there any excuses for that? Is that pure, plain evil? Asking for a friend.

Oh. I didn't think losing an eye was that big a deal the way some people around here hand-wave a child getting his carved out. Oop, I guess not. 🥱

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

How is telling the truth talking chit?

Because it hurt the poor little bastards' feewings so they get to cut out people's eyes. They learned it from their mother, I suppose.

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

I would just like to point out, having watched the video, that 'question sharply' being a euphemism for turture, is speculation not fact.

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Then what does "sharply" mean?

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

If sharply could mean anything, then why say it at all?

Question sharply only has one meaning and one meaning only. Every time it was used by GRRM in ASoIaF it's only ever meant torture. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

[Stardancer Supreme]

9 hours ago, ybrik said:

That video was a well thought out take but I feel it ignores a couple of important points that kind of changes the perspective. 

First Rhaenyra doesn’t just try to throw her brother, Aemond, under the bus automatically. She is told by her kids that Aemond called them bastards as they are all yelling at each other on who started it. Rhaenyra after this says this was an accident. She tries to deescalate the situation without anything else happening. Alicent doesn’t accept this and says that Luke was trying to murder Aemond and that was why the dagger was brought. Alicent is basically accusing Rhaenyra’s son of premeditated attempted murder. This is when Rhaenyra turns the argument with bringing up Aemond calling her kids bastards. I take her asking for Aemond to questioned sharply as a way to get Alicent to back the hell off accusing her son of attempted murder. 

Why do I think this was meant for Alicent and not her actually wanting her brother tortured? She knows Aemond isn’t just getting these ideas from no where. She knows Alicent is behind it. 

Also she knows her father and knows that there is no way he would actually torture his own son. What in this whole show has shown us to believe that Viserys would actually call for his child to be tortured? Hell look at everything Daemon has done and the worst Viserys did was kick him after he thought Daemon had defiled his daughter. 

At this point in the series, Rhaenyra has not taken anyone's life or conspired to maim anyone's children.  Her only crime is being a spoiled Princess.  She doesn't deserve all of the shyt thrown her way and she even got sliced! After seeing that Viserys wouldn't do anything to Alicent even after that, Rhaenyra should burn shyt down.  #TeamBlacks

And Rhaenyra has never claimed that she intends to harm Aegon, Helaena, or Aemond once she became Queen. 

Edited October 6, 2022 by Stardancer Supreme

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

At this point in the series, Rhaenyra has not taken anyone's life or conspired to maim anyone's children.  Her only crime is being a spoiled Princess.  She doesn't deserve all of the shyt thrown her way and she even got sliced! After seeing that Viserys wouldn't do anything to Alicent even after that, Rhaenyra should burn shyt down.  #TeamBlacks

other than that innocent guard who she had daemon kill to fake laenors death.

[proserpina65]

1 minute ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Rhaenyra has not taken anyone's life or conspired to maim anyone's children.

She hasn't taken anyone's life personally, but if she was in on the plan for Laenor's escape, she was complicit in the death of the unfortunate guy whose death was required to make it work.

I do find Alicent far more interesting to watch than Rhaenyra, which is not the same as saying I approve of her actions over the last couple of episodes.  I'm not Team anyone as far as the human characters are concerned.  I'm Team Show Us More Dragons, Damn It!

[Stardancer Supreme]

4 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

She hasn't taken anyone's life personally, but if she was in on the plan for Laenor's escape, she was complicit in the death of the unfortunate guy whose death was required to make it work.

I do find Alicent far more interesting to watch than Rhaenyra, which is not the same as saying I approve of her actions over the last couple of episodes.  I'm not Team anyone as far as the human characters are concerned.  I'm Team Show Us More Dragons, Damn It!

Alright, so that is 1 life compared to Alicent being complicit in the deaths of the Strongs at Harrenhal and drawing Rhaenyra's blood as well.  Still on Rhaenyra's side.

[LanceM]

Let’s be real here, Rhaenyra knows damn well that Viserys is not about to torture his son but she says it anyway to let Alicent know and everyone else in that hall know just how serious such allegations are and that maybe people should stop spreading them.

[SeanC]

26 minutes ago, steelyis said:

Question sharply only has one meaning and one meaning only. Every time it was used by GRRM in ASoIaF it's only ever meant torture. Don't let anyone tell you differently.

That’s what it means in the book. Based on the show usage, I don’t think that is what the line was intended to mean (compare the reaction to Rhaenyra’s line to the reaction to Alicent’s later demand).

[proserpina65]

12 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Alright, so that is 1 life compared to Alicent being complicit in the deaths of the Strongs at Harrenhal

I don't think she had any idea that Larys was capable of killing his family members so I'm not counting her as complicit in that.  Had she known such a thing was possible, I'd feel differently, but at the time it happened, I think she was clueless.  Now, of course, she does know.

Like I said, I'm not Team anyone.  I believe Alicent and Rhaenyra are equally bad.

[Constantinople]

59 minutes ago, SilverStormm said:

I don't think it could mean literally anything but obviously it could be a synonym for many things like, 'pointedly', 'harshly', 'strictly' - which is how I took it at the time tbh.

LOL.

"This is the highest of treasons. Prince Aemond must be sharply questioned"

People don't fake outrage over "the highest of treasons" and then ask for pointed questions, particularly since Viserys was already doing that.

30 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

At this point in the series, Rhaenyra has not taken anyone's life

By passing off three bastards as legitimate heirs to the throne, she's already killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people, they're just not dead yet.

And we know what Rhaenyra thinks of them "Their wants are of no consequence."

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

LOL.

"This is the highest of treasons. Prince Aemond must be sharply questioned"

People don't fake outrage over "the highest of treasons" and then ask for pointed questions, particularly since Viserys was already doing that.

The problem with that is that nobody reacts like Rhaenyra has demanded torture. Particularly Viserys, who is later incredulous at the suggestion of maiming Lucerys.

[steelyis]

3 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Let’s be real here, Rhaenyra knows damn well that Viserys is not about to torture his son but she says it anyway to let Alicent know and everyone else in that hall know just how serious such allegations are and that maybe people should stop spreading them.

Did Aemond know that? Because it's very likely the ten-year-old didn't grasp the nuances of his older sister advocating he be tortured, possibly to death, and his father, the fucking wretch, not immediately saying, "Lol! No, we are not torturing my son! Sit down, Rhaenyra." But instead threatens to cut his son's tongue out if he says the truth again.

And I thought talking shit meant getting hit? So words are just the wind only when Rhaenyra, a grown ass woman, says them, but when a little boy says something that's 100 percent true he's talking shit and deserves to lose an eye? Is that how it works?

[LadyChaos]

If the showrunners do indeed mean 'question sharply' to mean torture(regardless of the books).....We don't see Alicent freaking out over the suggestion that her own son be tortured.....she was still just demanding that Luc's eye by taken.

This is why I don't think that show runner actually intended that to be the meaning, in this case. Because either thats not what it meant in this instance, or literally Aemond's own mother cared more about getting one over on Rhaenyra and her children than the suggestion of her own son being tortured...as well as no one else in the room batting an eye at torturing a child.

As for the fight in of itself, I think we need to step back and remember that Aemond and Jac were the oldest at possibly 10 years old at most....and that kids fight. Jac having a knife on him doesn't mean that he intended to kill whoever they ran into, but that he was probably encouraged to always have it. As a person training to fight and heir to the throne, after his mother, he was probably encouraged to never go anywhere unarmed. Just like many of the adult men wear swords. I remember being a kid, as well as seeing my kids grow up....kids lack a considerable amount of impulse control...

Jac, Luc, Baela, and Rhea didn't go there to bully Aemond...they went to see who took Vhagar.....and found Aemond had claimed her. All they said was 'It's you.' And Aemond started talking smack to the girls. Was Baela wrong for hitting him, sure. But he was clearly enjoying the pain he was causing them. Jac and Luc only jumped in to defend the girls when Aemond started beating on them.

The difference between self-defense and being the aggressor...is that self-defense is only doing the minimum necessary to protect yourself and get away....Very quickly, Aemond became the aggressor because even as they were holding him down, he was still winning that fight of 4 against 1. Not only was he the one that was physically stronger, but he continued to talk smack the entire time. 'I'll feed you to my dragon.' 'You'll burn like your father' He tried to bash one of their heads in with a rock....thats why Aemond is the aggressor in this, not the victim. Aemond walked into that cave high off of adrenaline and wanting to fight, and the four of them were only trying to figure out who took the dragon.

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

If the showrunners do indeed mean 'question sharply' to mean torture(regardless of the books).....We don't see Alicent freaking out over the suggestion that her own son be tortured.....she was still just demanding that Luc's eye by taken.

This is why I don't think that show runner actually intended that to be the meaning, in this case. Because either thats not what it meant in this instance, or literally Aemond's own mother cared more about getting one over on Rhaenyra and her children than the suggestion of her own son being tortured...as well as no one else in the room batting an eye at torturing a child.

As for the fight in of itself, I think we need to step back and remember that Aemond and Jac were the oldest at possibly 10 years old at most....and that kids fight. Jac having a knife on him doesn't mean that he intended to kill whoever they ran into, but that he was probably encouraged to always have it. As a person training to fight and heir to the throne, after his mother, he was probably encouraged to never go anywhere unarmed. Just like many of the adult men wear swords. I remember being a kid, as well as seeing my kids grow up....kids lack a considerable amount of impulse control...

Jac, Luc, Baela, and Rhea didn't go there to bully Aemond...they went to see who took Vhagar.....and found Aemond had claimed her. All they said was 'It's you.' And Aemond started talking smack to the girls. Was Baela wrong for hitting him, sure. But he was clearly enjoying the pain he was causing them. Jac and Luc only jumped in to defend the girls when Aemond started beating on them.

The difference between self-defense and being the aggressor...is that self-defense is only doing the minimum necessary to protect yourself and get away....Very quickly, Aemond became the aggressor because even as they were holding him down, he was still winning that fight of 4 against 1. Not only was he the one that was physically stronger, but he continued to talk smack the entire time. 'I'll feed you to my dragon.' 'You'll burn like your father' He tried to bash one of their heads in with a rock....thats why Aemond is the aggressor in this, not the victim. Aemond walked into that cave high off of adrenaline and wanting to fight, and the four of them were only trying to figure out who took the dragon.

How the fight goes

Rhaena grabs him, he pushes her

Baela punches him, he punches her back and says a ruder version of gtfo me.

Jace attacks , he hits him

ditto for Luke

Jace pushes him down and they dogpile him till he pushes them off.

Grabs luke by the neck and makes the threat while holding a rock (which fair enough, a bit too far) but then lets him go once he sees the knife

Spends the rest of the fight defending against the knife till he gets cut in the face.

At any point, those four couldve walked away and nothing wouldve happened.  As a matter of fact, the bigger issue is why did they even feel need to go out there and confront whoever? 

[magdalene]

On 10/5/2022 at 7:09 AM, RobertDeSneero said:

brood of bratty bastards,

They are innocent children who had no control over the way they were conceived.  Calling them "bratty bastards" says more to me about who would call them that than about the children. And they are not bratty at all.  They are well-raised nice children just like Leana's children are well-raised and nice.

In contrast Alicent's children are weird, ill-adjusted sociopaths in training.

And since I am venting - so what that Rhaenyra has had a sexual life in addition to being a mother?  Having had lovers (Criston, Harwin,  and now Daemon) hardly makes her the whore of Babylon. The misogyny is outstanding.

It's not Rhaenyra's fault that Alicent is a nasty and repressed bitch with not a trace of joy or good will in her heart.

Edited October 6, 2022 by magdalene

[steelyis]

2 minutes ago, magdalene said:

In contrast Alicent's children are weird, ill-adjusted sociopaths in training.

Wow.

[LanceM]

29 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

By passing off three bastards as legitimate heirs to the throne, she's already killed tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of people, they're just not dead yet.

And we know what Rhaenyra thinks of them "Their wants are of no consequence."

Otto was planning on usurping Rhaenyra the minute Aegon was born. He had made it clear that the realm won’t support her because she is a woman. It wouldn’t matter one bit if her children were Laenor’s biological children.

Edited October 6, 2022 by LanceM

[LadyChaos]

10 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

At any point, those four couldve walked away and nothing wouldve happened.  As a matter of fact, the bigger issue is why did they even feel need to go out there and confront whoever? 

Aemond could have not started talking smack and just 'Yeah it was me.' and walked away without slinging insults. He also could have walked away after he got hit instead of shoving two girls half his size, around.....He could have not threatened to feed them to his dragons and burn them alive....All of these things would've also stopped it from escalating.....

And they went out there, because they grew up with Vhagar, and Vhagar was their mothers dragon...Vhagar was apart of their family.

5 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Otto was planning on usurping Rhaenyra the minute Aegon was born. He had made it clear that the realm won’t support her because she is a woman. It wouldn’t matter one bit if her children were Laenor’s biological children.

Exactly, Otto was literally planning on usurping Rhaenyra before Alicent was even married to the King. He orchestrated his daughter to marry the king and give Viserys male sons to usurp Rhaenyra's claim. It has nothing to do the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's kids. Rhaenyra wasn't even married, or pregnant, yet before Alicent and Otto were drawing lines in the sand and planning to put Aegon on the throne.

Edited October 6, 2022 by LadyChaos
spelling

[Oscirus]

3 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Otto was planning on usurping Rhaenyra the minute Aegon was born. He had made it clear that the realm won’t support her because she is a woman. It wouldn’t matter one bit if her children were Laenor’s biological children.

Otto was an idiot for demanding that rhaenyra be named heir over daemon when he knew his daughter was seducing the king.  If he would've just let daemon be temp heir, he would've gotten everything he wanted.

[LadyChaos]

1 minute ago, Oscirus said:

Otto was an idiot for demanding that rhaenyra be named heir over daemon when he knew his daughter was seducing the king.  If he would've just let daemon be temp heir, he would've gotten everything he wanted.

But alas....he also assumed that the Viserys would never catch on to him manipulating him. 

[Oscirus]

4 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Aemond could have not started talking smack and just 'Yeah it was me.' and walked away without slinging insults. He also could have walked away after he got hit instead of shoving two girls have his size, around.....He could have not threatened to feed them to his dragons and burn them alive....All of these things would've also stopped it from escalating.....

And they went out there, because they grew up with Vhagar, and Vhagar was their mothers dragon...Vhagar was apart of their family.

And said girls couldve kept their hands to themselves and the situation wouldn't have escalated. The four introduced violence into the mix. There were no threats until they attacked him.

[proserpina65]

27 minutes ago, magdalene said:

And since I am venting - so what that Rhaenyra has had a sexual life in addition to being a mother?  Having had lovers (Criston, Harwin,  and now Daemon) hardly makes her the whore of Babylon. The misogyny is outstanding.

In the world of the show, the parentage of Rhaenyra's children is very much an issue.  Had she just taken lovers, no one would care.  It's that one of those lovers is very clearly the father of her children which is a serious problem.

24 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Otto was planning on usurping Rhaenyra the minute Aegon was born. He had made it clear that the realm won’t support her because she is a woman. It wouldn’t matter one bit if her children were Laenor’s biological children.

That is true as far as Otto is concerned.  Their actual paternity is, however, important to other lords.  It may be misogynistic, it may be unfair, but it's the society in which these characters live.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

The problem with that is that nobody reacts like Rhaenyra has demanded torture. Particularly Viserys, who is later incredulous at the suggestion of maiming Lucerys.

And how should they react?

When Aegon said, "We know, Father. Everyone knows. Just look at them.", everyone reacted with stunned silence. No denials, no gasps. Eventually Viserys starts yelling but even he doesn't deny it.

In any case, I disagree based on the tone of Alicent's the response, her facial expression and trying to pass it off as "training yard bluster."

And I have yet to read an explanation for what "sharply questioned" means that doesn't either ignore the word "sharply" or ignore Viserys's behavior before Rhaenyra's request.

[SeanC]

48 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

And how should they react?

Most obviously I identified the contrast in Viserys’ reactions.

Edited October 6, 2022 by SeanC

[Meredith Quill]

47 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

And I have yet to read an explanation for what "sharply questioned" means that doesn't either ignore the word "sharply" or ignore Viserys's behavior before Rhaenyra's request.

My response ignored neither. You asked what it could mean, I provided synonyms. Simply because you may have disregarded them doesn't mean they're not viable.