S22.E02: Battle Lines

[WendyCR72]

Airing September 29, 2022:

Quote

A politician's daughter is found dead after an apparent mugging. Once Cosgrove and Shaw start to unravel the details behind her trip, they realize this isn't a random act of violence; Price makes a risky move. Maroun works to salvage their case.

[WendyCR72]

By the way, maybe it's me, but it seems like the description involving Price/Maroun was the same thing in almost every episode last season...

[Xeliou66]

26 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

By the way, maybe it's me, but it seems like the description involving Price/Maroun was the same thing in almost every episode last season...

I don’t recall the same description for Price/Maroun in each episode last season, but then again the descriptions are always very generic so as not to give anything away.

Anyway, this episode is apparently the one that will address abortion laws - I hope it’s handled okay and not botched terribly, like that awful season 20 episode Dignity. I figured SVU would be the show to address abortion laws, since they regularly deal with social issues like that. The franchise hasn’t always done a good job with abortion related stuff, so I’m somewhat nervous about this episode as it could be a clunker, but I hope it’s pulled off okay.

Edited September 28, 2022 by Xeliou66

[CrystalBlue]

So, a politician's daughter is found dead after having a back-alley abortion?  I too hope we don't have a clunker or a cringefest.  Not picking sides on the battle line here; I just dread abortion stories and miscarriage story lines when it becomes political, or a cheap gimmick the solve the unwanted baby predicament, or for ratings.

[Door County Cherry]

No.  Not a back alley abortion.  It was a legal, medically supervised abortion in NYC. She was just secretive about it because her father is the (fake) anti-abortion governor of TX.

Overall, this was better than the previous abortion story.  Frank, as expected,  wasn't in favor of it but I think it could have been interesting to push a little bit more about when parents don't get to decide their child's future.

I am not happy we start with the victim instead of stumbling on the victim.

It was a criminal underuse of Kevin Dunn.  

I thought the actress who played the abortion advocate was amateurish.  I wish they had made it seem like her decision was financial.   I do not see how she'd get arrested for kidnapping.   Interstate kidnapping would be a federal crime so I don't see how TX could touch her.  Plus, her darn parents were the people who bought the tickets and put her on the plane.  All she did was take the same flight and support her in NYC. The real law she faces is the lawsuit one.  But again, it's her parents who facilitated the NY trip. 

They finally get her on the stand and we don't even see the cross examination?

Thompkins University?  Has Hudson fallen out of favor?

I'm surprised the boyfriend didn't know how the abortion went or didn't have a text where she shared her feelings afterwards. 

I thought we were going to find out where Bernard went but all I heard was Mechad's character thanking Frank for asking to work with him. 

In spite of all the nitpicking,  I mostly enjoyed the ep until the ridiculous last shot.

[gesundheit]

Wow, seems like they could've held back on something there. Wasn't just a pol's kid, it was the governor of Texas's kid! Murdered by her brother for having an abortion! And then an abortion advocate was gunned down on the courtroom steps! I'm exhausted. 

I'm going to be honest, outside of the joys of seeing Sam Waterston, I always get a little deflated once we hit the halfway point because I get contact embarrassment in every scene with Price and/or Maroun.

Mehcad Brooks is a solid addition to the cast, though.

[Serena McClain]

I just made a rant on the L&O twitter page for whoever does the show's editing to add STARRING above Jeffrey Donovan's name during the intro credits. I do not see why and how was this even overlooked given he was to take over Anthony Anderson's spot when he had the STARRING title above HIS name. Talk about lazy editing to just use the image and credit of him when he was not starring at the time and leave it at that. 

I still find it a shame Anthony left. When this show came back, I was craving they could go a season without any casting changes which seems to have plagued the original run so much except for those last two seasons when the cast remained stable. But for TWO seasons really!!! They just could not keep a good cast together, something I like SVU for doing for the most part and CI to an extent. Anthony had to go and ruin that. I get Kevin Bernard been around the 27th precinct for a dozen years and from a timeline sense, it seems reasonable he would leave now, but we only got to have a little over two years with the character in regard to the actual onscreen run, so Anthony should have stayed. He wanted to do other things, but why even come back for such a short stint and this was a blessing given Blackish ended. Now what is he doing, nothing, so he better have a new gig soon that makes him leaving even reasonable or else he is going to look so dumb. These actors want to leave a good gig for them and most of the time not be able to find anything else for the longest time or something that is just as good. This acting thing is quite the challenge. So many actors out there with very little available roles, so they ought to manage what they got and make it stick for the long run or they will be at ground zero for God knows how long.

I do not think Jeffrey should have been given lead billing given his character was still fresh to the department. Mehcad Brooks should have taken that spot even though he is a newcomer but that does not mean an existing character has to automatically be the lead like when Jesse L. Martin left and Jeremy Sisto was given the lead as opposed to Anthony Anderson. After all, Chris Noth was never given lead on this show even when his top costars before him left during his run. Newcomers Paul Sorvino and Jerry Orbach took that mantle immediately. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Serena McClain

[Raja]

I noticed they had middle aged Frank do the running in two scenes. Does Mehcad Brooks have some kind of physical disability like Ice-T has or James Garner had back in the day?

Edited September 30, 2022 by Raja

[storyskip]

I'm going to sit over here on my unpopular opinion bench, but I'm glad Anthony Anderson has moved on to other projects.

I got the sense last year that he was phoning it in, and it just feels like the cast is more balanced this season. If Anderson had other projects he wanted to be working on, then good for him for moving on to those projects and I'm happy to see what Mehcad Brooks does with Jalen Shaw.

[Serena McClain]

Noticed an error. Cosgrove stated that the victim was the same age as his daughter, who was seventeen. Now unless he has ANOTHER daughter, which I highly doubt, this is not right as in the Organized Crime crossover LITERALLY A WEEK AGO he told the one and only daughter we see that she was FIFTEEN. I recall him saying that and went back to the OC show to review that scene if that was the case AND IT WAS. Like, how do they screw this so quickly.

Also a funny moment, while the governor was talking in front of the courthouse, there was a bird walking on the steps in the background just chilling and minding its own business, haha. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Serena McClain

[Serena McClain]

34 minutes ago, storyskip said:

I'm going to sit over here on my unpopular opinion bench, but I'm glad Anthony Anderson has moved on to other projects.

I got the sense last year that he was phoning it in, and it just feels like the cast is more balanced this season. If Anderson had other projects he wanted to be working on, then good for him for moving on to those projects and I'm happy to see what Mehcad Brooks does with Jalen Shaw.

I found his acting a bit bland at times, but given this is his first gig shortly after a long running show JUST ended, he was a fool to make this decision this quickly. It was a waste of him even coming back and like I said, he BETTER have something grand happening very shortly within the next few months or him leaving a good gig like this is the biggest mistake he will make in his career now. If we don't see anything from him in the next few years, I will not feel bad for him. This is what you get for jumping the gun so quickly.

Reminds me of when Jake T. Austin did this when he was on The Fosters on ABC Family. His character was written off for half a season and he wanted to do other things in the meantime. But he left the show as his contract would not allow him to do other things during the time if he remained tied to the show. So when his character came back, the role was recast, and THAT actor continued it for the next four years while Jake did absolutely nothing special since. So, him leaving that show was pathetic, all because he could not be patient and still could have been working had he stayed and just took his break. But he left thinking he was going to land something else and didn't and the actor who took over, while I did not like the fact he was too tall, made the role his own and basically overshadowed Jake at least when it came to the fans who took a liking to him. The second actor would continue the role well into the sequel series, Good Trouble for some guest spots. 

Like I said, this acting thing is not easy to do as roles are offered and snatched like cookies every day whether it be the same character or a replacement character. If you think you are going to land something greater, then you better make sure the seeds for that is ALREADY in motion or you are going to fall down big time.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Serena McClain

[Raja]

1 hour ago, Door County Cherry said:

I am not happy we start with the victim instead of stumbling on the victim.

Thompkins University?  Has Hudson fallen out of favor?

I thought we were going to find out where Bernard went but all I heard was Mechad's character thanking Frank for asking to work with him. 

If they need to find time to give ADA Maroun something to do cutting the Criminal Intent start and going straight to the Law & Order start would be one place.

If the murder had occurred on campus it would have been Hudson for sure.

I just figure Detective Bernard for having retired

[Serena McClain]

10 minutes ago, Raja said:

If they need to find time to give ADA Maroun something to do cutting the Criminal Intent start and going straight to the Law & Order start would be one place.

If the murder had occurred on campus it would have been Hudson for sure.

I just figure Detective Bernard for having retired

Well we have had those CI like intros since Season 18. I do not see that changing anytime soon. I frankly like it as we get to see and know the victim a bit before they bite the dust. Why this would affect ADA Maroun's work I am not quite following since from her perspective, she does not know what went down and even we as the audience do not see everything leading to the death. 

Yeah, no mention of Bernard either. Shame given this should have been addressed in the first episode of the season. I should not have to wait multiple episodes down the road to know where such and such is. Bernard was a big character too so to NOT address his absence is like silly. Trial By Jury replaced Lennie Briscoe and did not even allude to the fact that he was gone or ever even there at the DA's Office at all when his replacement came in. It was just so weird they did that. We had to find out on the OTHER SHOWS years down the line that he had died. Lame. Like we had to find out three seasons what Claire Kincaid's fate was which was never a confirmed death by Season 7 or 8. LAME.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Serena McClain

[Raja]

6 minutes ago, Serena McClain said:

Well we have had those CI like intros since Season 18. I do not see that changing anytime soon. I frankly like it as we get to see and know the victim a bit before they bite the dust. Why this would affect ADA Maroun's work I am not quite following since from her perspective, she does not know what went down and even we as the audience do not see everything leading to the death. 

It would be that extra minute for her ADA scenes giving legal advice during the investigation rather than spending it with the victim and just having Maroun sit at the table during the trial 

[Serena McClain]

Or NBC could just limit commercial time or the makers could cut out some other unimportant scene. 

Edited September 30, 2022 by Serena McClain

[Xeliou66]

This has to be one of the most controversial and polarizing episodes of L&O history, but I liked it until the courthouse shooting at the end. That was an unnecessary final twist with no explanation, who was it even who shot the abortion rights activist? That was an over the top ending to an already rather sensational episode.

Yes the episode was heavy handed, but I think sometimes that needs to be the case. I liked that besides the one very brief conversation between Cosgrove and Shaw there wasn’t much in the way of characters debating the abortion issue and were just doing their jobs. I’m liking the Cosgrove/Shaw pairing, Shaw is a nice addition who’s fitted in smoothly with the cast. I liked how they weren’t afraid to question the Governor and I liked Cosgrove giving him the warrant for his son’s arrest.

I did predict the brother as the killer, his presence was unnecessary and I knew he would play a big role in the case. Still the investigation was good and featured good detective work, and I liked seeing Dixon take charge in the interrogation room in the one scene.

Jack had a couple of good scenes and it’s always a treat to see him dispense advice. I have no issues with Maroun or Price, I like the way Price methodically goes about his cases and I think Maroun is a bit more authoritative and has more personality this season. The trial scenes were good, I liked seeing a familiar face as the judge and the legal back and forth was pretty good.

And then the ending was just totally unnecessary and just felt tacked on for shock value, it was also a cliche seeing a shooting at the courthouse. That pushed the episode over the top for me, and was a sour ending to an otherwise solid episode, although I can see why some people would dislike it given the extremely emotional and controversial nature of the subject matter, and the episode no doubt pulled no punches in taking some shots at certain politicians, but I had no problem with most of it.

I wish the episode would start on ordinary people stumbling across a crime scene instead of showing the victim, hopefully we’ll be back to the traditional format soon.

I’m really wishing for more scenes between the police and the DA’s - it would be really nice to see them interact some, especially on a high profile case like this.

So overall I felt the episode was decent, yes it was heavy handed and I can see why some people would be turned off by it, but I thought it was pretty decent and I liked how each character got a nice role, but I really disliked the ending, it was a totally unnecessary, shock value ending, would’ve much preferred a scene of the DA’s discussing the case than that crap.

[Raja]

20 minutes ago, Serena McClain said:

Or NBC could just limit commercial time or the makers could cut out some other unimportant scene. 

And they have decided the ADA giving advice and the arraignment are the unimportant scenes, which leads us to the role, which the SVU prosecutor doesn't have, only exists for historical reasons 

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, storyskip said:

I'm going to sit over here on my unpopular opinion bench, but I'm glad Anthony Anderson has moved on to other projects.

I liked Bernard but I won't lie, given how many times Anderson has been accused of sexual assault, I'm read to move on.  Plus, I do like that it seems like they're going in a direction that points out flaws in policing a bit more. 

51 minutes ago, Serena McClain said:

Noticed an error. Cosgrove stated that the victim was the same age as his daughter, who was seventeen. Now unless he has ANOTHER daughter, which I highly doubt, this is not right as in the Organized Crime crossover LITERALLY A WEEK AGO he told the one and only daughter we see that she was FIFTEEN.

If I remember correctly, he said he had four daughters last season.  The one he was eating with is only one of of them.  They were likely having a one-on-one lunch because of her desire to home school. 

44 minutes ago, Serena McClain said:

I found his acting a bit bland at times, but given this is his first gig shortly after a long running show JUST ended, he was a fool to make this decision this quickly. It was a waste of him even coming back and like I said, he BETTER have something grand happening very shortly within the next few months or him leaving a good gig like this is the biggest mistake he will make in his career now.

You're comparing Anthony Anderson with a guy who didn't have much of a track record.  Anderson is pretty established and he left because he wants more control of his next project and to be the lead.  

32 minutes ago, Serena McClain said:

Well we have had those CI like intros since Season 18. I do not see that changing anytime soon.

Except last season they had stumble on the body eps for the most part. 

[Serena McClain]

30 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

I liked Bernard but I won't lie, given how many times Anderson has been accused of sexual assault, I'm read to move on.  Plus, I do like that it seems like they're going in a direction that points out flaws in policing a bit more. 

If I remember correctly, he said he had four daughters last season.  The one he was eating with is only one of of them.  They were likely having a one-on-one lunch because of her desire to home school. 

You're comparing Anthony Anderson with a guy who didn't have much of a track record.  Anderson is pretty established and he left because he wants more control of his next project and to be the lead.  

Except last season they had stumble on the body eps for the most part. 

Never heard of Anthony being involved in this sort of thing. Gee. News to me. 

Well if they said that about Cosgrove having more daughters, then I stand corrected and this is not an error then. This just better be the case then or these writers need to be fired for not paying attention to their own detail. 

Still, Anthony was quick was jump on the revival as soon as it was announced so you would have thought he was desperate for a gig as soon as he can get one and then after that he decides to leave. I really don't see him doing much at this point so he made the wrong choice and wasted everyone's time. 

And now they are going back to the Season 18 angle which is still a fresh season and luckily we see more of it this time around in Season 22, which should really be 32 had we had this show on for the last dozen years. Grrr....

Edited September 30, 2022 by Serena McClain

[Door County Cherry]

10 minutes ago, Serena McClain said:

Still, Anthony was quick was jump on the revival as soon as it was announced so you would have thought he was desperate for a gig as soon as he can get one and then after that he decides to leave. I really don't see him doing much at this point so he made the wrong choice and wasted everyone's time.

But he only agreed to one year.  If he were desperate, he would've agreed to more seasons right away.  I think he jumped on because he loved the job and wasn't happy that it was canceled.  I thought he'd stay on for another season because he said he was having fun but obviously, something he changed. 

Maybe he wanted the Hargitay/Meloni treatment where they get EP credits.  I don't know.  

[Serena McClain]

Well if he thought that was going to be the case given he only had a two-year stint in the franchise in general, he is delusional, whereas Mariska and Chris have set their marks far longer than he has to warrant their executive producer momentum. He should have waited longer. What a shame. Reminds me of when Michelle Hurd left SVU because she felt underutilized when it was only the FIRST DAMN SEASON she was on the show and interesting enough, given main billing halfway through the season which was not even the case with Dean Winters, whom she was taking over the mantle from. What did she expect so early on when she had four other cast members with higher ranks than her. If this was Season 4 and 5 where this was the case, fine, but she got too greedy and lost her longevity with this series. UGH, when will these actors learn!

Edited September 30, 2022 by Serena McClain

[Raja]

7 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

This has to be one of the most controversial and polarizing episodes of L&O history, but I liked it until the courthouse shooting at the end. That was an unnecessary final twist with no explanation, who was it even who shot the abortion rights activist? That was an over the top ending to an already rather sensational episode.

Yes the episode was heavy handed, but I think sometimes that needs to be the case. I liked that besides the one very brief conversation between Cosgrove and Shaw there wasn’t much in the way of characters debating the abortion issue and were just doing their jobs. I’m liking the Cosgrove/Shaw pairing, Shaw is a nice addition who’s fitted in smoothly with the cast. I liked how they weren’t afraid to question the Governor and I liked Cosgrove giving him the warrant for his son’s arrest.

I did predict the brother as the killer, his presence was unnecessary and I knew he would play a big role in the case. Still the investigation was good and featured good detective work, and I liked seeing Dixon take charge in the interrogation room in the one scene.

Jack had a couple of good scenes and it’s always a treat to see him dispense advice. I have no issues with Maroun or Price, I like the way Price methodically goes about his cases and I think Maroun is a bit more authoritative and has more personality this season. The trial scenes were good, I liked seeing a familiar face as the judge and the legal back and forth was pretty good.

And then the ending was just totally unnecessary and just felt tacked on for shock value, it was also a cliche seeing a shooting at the courthouse. That pushed the episode over the top for me, and was a sour ending to an otherwise solid episode, although I can see why some people would dislike it given the extremely emotional and controversial nature of the subject matter, and the episode no doubt pulled no punches in taking some shots at certain politicians, but I had no problem with most of it.

I wish the episode would start on ordinary people stumbling across a crime scene instead of showing the victim, hopefully we’ll be back to the traditional format soon.

I’m really wishing for more scenes between the police and the DA’s - it would be really nice to see them interact some, especially on a high profile case like this.

So overall I felt the episode was decent, yes it was heavy handed and I can see why some people would be turned off by it, but I thought it was pretty decent and I liked how each character got a nice role, but I really disliked the ending, it was a totally unnecessary, shock value ending, would’ve much preferred a scene of the DA’s discussing the case than that crap.

I was there until the judge allowed the prejudicial my abortion story from the witness as if the objection was made to protect her from embarrassment.

[GHScorpiosRule]

5 hours ago, Serena McClain said:

Well if he thought that was going to be the case given he only had a two-year stint in the franchise in general, he is delusional, whereas Mariska and Chris have set their marks far longer than he has to warrant their executive producer momentum. He should have waited longer. What a shame. Reminds me of when Michelle Hurd left SVU because she felt underutilized when it was only the FIRST DAMN SEASON she was on the show and interesting enough, given main billing halfway through the season which was not even the case with Dean Winters, whom she was taking over the mantle from. What did she expect so early on when she had four other cast members with higher ranks than her. If this was Season 4 and 5 where this was the case, fine, but she got too greedy and lost her longevity with this series. UGH, when will these actors learn!

I see nothing wrong with Anderson leaving after the first season. The mothership has always had a rotating door for detectives and ADAs during its initial 20-year run. The exceptions being Orbach as Lennie; Martin as Green; Merkerson as Van Buren, Stephen Hill as Schiff (until he decided to leave after 10 seasons), and Waterston as McCoy.

Dzundza: 1 season

Sorvino:  1 season and a handful in the third season before he left

Florek: replaced in the fourth season

Moriarty: left  after four seasons

Noth: 5 seasons

Bratt: 4 seasons

Milovich: 1 season

Brooks: 3 seasons

Hennessy: 3 seasons

Lowell: 2 seasons

Harmon: 3 seasons

Rohmbot: 4 and a half seasons

Parrisse: 1 season

Weist: 2 seasons

Foghorn Leghorn Thompson: 4 seasons

Who knows how long Sisto, Anderson, La Garza or Roache would have stayed had the show not been cancelled? Merkerson was going to leave anyway, so we would have gotten a new squad commander.

Reading the comments for this episode makes me glad I dropped watching this revival.

Edited September 30, 2022 by GHScorpiosRule

[gesundheit]

8 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

But he only agreed to one year.  If he were desperate, he would've agreed to more seasons right away.  I think he jumped on because he loved the job and wasn't happy that it was canceled.  I thought he'd stay on for another season because he said he was having fun but obviously, something he changed. 

Maybe he wanted the Hargitay/Meloni treatment where they get EP credits.  I don't know.  

Yes, exactly, he only agreed to one year -- that was always the plan. They wanted someone on the cop side of it from the original run for the revival, and he was the only one they could get and only for a year. They gave him a sweet deal and he did them the one-season favor of some continuity to bridge the gap. He doesn't even live in NYC and still has his game show and podcast series and is EP on Grown-ish, all out west where he lives. There was never any real chance he'd stay.

[dubbel zout]

Anthony Anderson won't have to work another day in his life if he doesn't want to, thanks to black-ish. What he does with his career is his business, IMO.

Not a fan of this episode. Not because of its content, but because it felt a bit slapdash, like most of the new eps feel. The reduced running time is noticeable to me, and I feel like one side is always going to get shortchanged because of it. 

[Xeliou66]

3 hours ago, Raja said:

I was there until the judge allowed the prejudicial my abortion story from the witness as if the objection was made to protect her from embarrassment.

I was unsure what the judge was supposed to do there, since the witness stated that they wanted to answer the question, the defense attorney opened the door by asking an inflammatory question, the judge sustained Price’s objection but the witness wanted to respond. 

[storyskip]

19 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I was unsure what the judge was supposed to do there, since the witness stated that they wanted to answer the question, the defense attorney opened the door by asking an inflammatory question, the judge sustained Price’s objection but the witness wanted to respond. 

This part of the episode, and the end where the woman got shot jarred me out of the narrative because there really was no story telling to either situation. It just felt like the writers getting up on their soap boxes and pelting the audience with anvils, rather than telling a story.

There was NO reason for the witness to tell their story and honestly, the way the defense attorney was laying the ground, Price should have been furious that the witness walked right up that path and should have (would have in real life) requested a recess to stop it.

It would have been better story telling if that bit of speech-ing by the witness HAD cost the DA's office the conviction in the case because the defense lawyer's framing of "hey you've had an abortion, so how do we know you're not here in part as a way to stick it to a pro-lifer?" raises very solid reasonable doubt.

But L&O writers gotta soap box I guess.

I think it would have been more compelling if the main witness (the woman who got killed) had instead been forced to go back to Texas and face the long haul consequences of her choices and what it means to takes the risks to live that life, or even if she had been killed back IN Texas. The way it was done/played out just felt like lazy story telling.

Edited September 30, 2022 by storyskip

[Raja]

31 minutes ago, Xeliou66 said:

I was unsure what the judge was supposed to do there, since the witness stated that they wanted to answer the question, the defense attorney opened the door by asking an inflammatory question, the judge sustained Price’s objection but the witness wanted to respond. 

The entire history of the 'law & Order twist" is that of judges shutting down witnesses from talking and evidence of being presented and then the DA trying to find a work around. To paraphrase the WWE's Rock "it doesn't matter what the witness wants"

[shapeshifter]

I would love to have confirmation of my mind's conclusion-jump to the casting call for the brother having been something like "Kyle Rittenhouse look alike," even though the crime was very different. Even if that wasn't explicitly stated in the casting call (probably it was just "white, young adult male with round, baby face") the resemblance kept me thinking he would get away with it——and, as often (always?) happens with these L&O guilty verdicts, we will never get to hear about the appeal(s).

And, even though they succeeded in making me detest the brother (he didn't even try to get sympathy by crying) we don't ever get to hear the defense attorney ask the brother if he intended to kill her when he shoved his sister——nor do I recall a clear picture of the scene of the crime showing how exactly she would have to have been shoved to fatally fall to her death. I wish we had been shown that the scene gave clear intent.

I'm thinking of other TV murder scenes involving falls where it is made clear that the person could not have jumped. I think there was even one where the victim may have jumped off of a bridge to escape the attacker? May or may not have been a L&O show.


 

14 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I do not see how she'd get arrested for kidnapping.   Interstate kidnapping would be a federal crime so I don't see how TX could touch her.  Plus, her darn parents were the people who bought the tickets and put her on the plane.  All she did was take the same flight and support her in NYC. The real law she faces is the lawsuit one.  But again, it's her parents who facilitated the NY trip. 

Yes. The writers seem to have dropped explanation of potential kidnapping charges as soon as the brother accused the advocate of killing his sister——an example of how the writing:

3 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

it felt a bit slapdash, like most of the new eps feel. The reduced running time is noticeable to me, and I feel like one side is always going to get shortchanged because of it. 

 

1 hour ago, storyskip said:

felt like the writers getting up on their soap boxes and pelting the audience with anvils, rather than telling a story.

Heh. Love your phraseology, @storyskip! 😆

Edited September 30, 2022 by shapeshifter

[Door County Cherry]

6 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

And, even though they succeeded in making me detest the brother (he didn't even try to get sympathy by crying) we don't ever get to hear the defense attorney ask the brother if he intended to kill her when he shoved his sister——nor do I recall a clear picture of the scene of the crime showing how exactly she would have to have been shoved to fatally fall to her death. I wish we had been shown that the scene gave clear intent.

The defense attorney didn't ask that because they maintained that it was the other woman who killed her.

[GHScorpiosRule]

2 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

and, as often (always?) happens with these L&O guilty verdicts, we will never get to hear about the appeal(s).

And, even though they succeeded in making be detest the brother (he didn't even try to get sympathy by crying) we don't ever get to hear the defense attorney ask the brother if he intended to kill her when he shoved his sister——nor do I recall a clear picture of the scene of the crime showing how exactly she would have to have been shoved to fatally fall to her death. I wish we had been shown that the scene gave clear intent.

I'm thinking of other TV murder scenes involving falls where it is made clear that the person could not have jumped. I think there was even one where the victim may have jumped off of a bridge to escape the attacker? May or may not have been a L&O show.

There have been several times when we saw Jack go to the appeals court and make a case for denying the appeal. Sometimes he won, sometimes he lost. About three or four. So we did see the appeals process. Even in season four's "Black Tie", that smug defense attorney, played by Jeffrey DeMunn, filed an appeal before the jury even came back and won the appeal.

And yes, in season 7's "Menace" where the victim was forced to jump because the whiny pissant son, who torched his father's clothing factory for his own gain/greed, hired Crazy Mike to chase her. She had no choice. 

[Raja]

14 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

The defense attorney didn't ask that because they maintained that it was the other woman who killed her.

A hard Plan B, from The Practice 

[blackwing]

I know it's fairly impossible, but I don't like when this show gets too much into politics.  It's pretty clear that the showrunners fall on the liberal side of the political spectrum, they had the characters make some comments last season and in this episode that seem to make it clear.  Plus the obvious dig at Texas.  That said, I thought the storyline was pretty good.

15 hours ago, Serena McClain said:

I just made a rant on the L&O twitter page for whoever does the show's editing to add STARRING above Jeffrey Donovan's name during the intro credits. I do not see why and how was this even overlooked given he was to take over Anthony Anderson's spot when he had the STARRING title above HIS name. Talk about lazy editing to just use the image and credit of him when he was not starring at the time and leave it at that. 

I do not think Jeffrey should have been given lead billing given his character was still fresh to the department. Mehcad Brooks should have taken that spot even though he is a newcomer but that does not mean an existing character has to automatically be the lead like when Jesse L. Martin left and Jeremy Sisto was given the lead as opposed to Anthony Anderson. After all, Chris Noth was never given lead on this show even when his top costars before him left during his run. Newcomers Paul Sorvino and Jerry Orbach took that mantle immediately. 

I was coming here to comment on this too.  They knew Anderson left months ago, they had Mehcad Brooks cast months ago, why couldn't the graphics department added "Starring" above Donovan's name?  It's particularly odd given that Hugh Dancy as the lead Order has the usual "Starring" above his name.

I think Donovan deserves the lead billing.  I'm pretty sure he's about 10-15 years older than Brooks, he's probably about mid 50s while Brooks I believe is early 40s.  Plus his character has been in the force longer, and I believe he is now Senior Detective.

13 hours ago, Xeliou66 said:

Jack had a couple of good scenes and it’s always a treat to see him dispense advice. I have no issues with Maroun or Price, I like the way Price methodically goes about his cases and I think Maroun is a bit more authoritative and has more personality this season. The trial scenes were good, I liked seeing a familiar face as the judge and the legal back and forth was pretty good.

And then the ending was just totally unnecessary and just felt tacked on for shock value, it was also a cliche seeing a shooting at the courthouse. That pushed the episode over the top for me, and was a sour ending to an otherwise solid episode, although I can see why some people would dislike it given the extremely emotional and controversial nature of the subject matter, and the episode no doubt pulled no punches in taking some shots at certain politicians, but I had no problem with most of it.

I was very critical of Sam Waterston last season, he seemed really frail.  But this season he seems a lot more robust.  I also don't have issues with either Price or Maroun.  I didn't like Maroun so much last season but I agree she has more personality this year.

2 hours ago, storyskip said:

This part of the episode, and the end where the woman got shot jarred me out of the narrative because there really was no story telling to either situation. It just felt like the writers getting up on their soap boxes and pelting the audience with anvils, rather than telling a story.

There was NO reason for the witness to tell their story and honestly, the way the defense attorney was laying the ground, Price should have been furious that the witness walked right up that path and should have (would have in real life) requested a recess to stop it.

It would have been better story telling if that bit of speech-ing by the witness HAD cost the DA's office the conviction in the case because the defense lawyer's framing of "hey you've had an abortion, so how do we know you're not here in part as a way to stick it to a pro-lifer?" raises very solid reasonable doubt.

But L&O writers gotta soap box I guess.

I think it would have been more compelling if the main witness (the woman who got killed) had instead been forced to go back to Texas and face the long haul consequences of her choices and what it means to takes the risks to live that life, or even if she had been killed back IN Texas. The way it was done/played out just felt like lazy story telling.

Agree that the ending was such a cliche.  As soon as they walked onto the steps and the abortion activist declined assistance to a cab, I knew she was a goner.  I agree that it would have been more interesting if the woman had gone back home to Texas to face any consequences.  Or if the Texas Governor had announced that she would be facing charges for violating state law.  

[Raja]

3 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I think Donovan deserves the lead billing.  I'm pretty sure he's about 10-15 years older than Brooks, he's probably about mid 50s while Brooks I believe is early 40s.  Plus his character has been in the force longer, and I believe he is now Senior Detective.

He is defiantly the senior homicide detective. In the season opening movie Detective Shaw a former lawyer turned cop to narcotics detective was working his first homicide and Cosgrove took it upon himself to mentor him. And it seemed he ask for Shaw to be moved over to the 27th to continue that relationship.

[WendyCR72]

Shaw has a booming voice! I like him so far. And his vibe with Cosgrove seems to be gelling nicely.

But I knew what happened at the very end was going to happen before it did. Maybe it's all the other past drama that has happened at the courthouse, but I could see what happened coming a mile away.

Still, the writing seems a bit more nuanced so far, that aside, than it did last season. Maybe the writers were rusty as far as writing for the Mothership goes and needed time to re-find their sea legs, so to speak.

[Xeliou66]

12 minutes ago, WendyCR72 said:

Shaw has a booming voice! I like him so far. And his vibe with Cosgrove seems to be gelling nicely.

But I knew what happened at the very end was going to happen before it did. Maybe it's all the other past drama that has happened at the courthouse, but I could see what happened coming a mile away.

Still, the writing seems a bit more nuanced so far, that aside, than it did last season. Maybe the writers were rusty as far as writing for the Mothership goes and needed time to re-find their sea legs, so to speak.

Agreed, I saw the ending coming a mile away as well, maybe that’s why I disliked it so much, it was so cliched and over the top in an already rather sensationalistic episode, a more low key ending would’ve been much better.

I’m also liking Shaw and I’m glad he’s fit in smoothly and I like his dynamic with Cosgrove, and how they aren’t clashing constantly.

I think the show will find a stronger rhythm this season and I thought this episode flowed smoothly until the end, and I liked how everyone was focused on the case and not debating the abortion issue. Yes the episode was rather heavy handed and didn’t pull any punches, but sometimes I feel like that’s the better way to handle an issue like this rather than trying to portray “both sides” of the issue.

[853fisher]

A more interesting conclusion might have seen the witness refusing protection and going down the courthouse steps into the throng maybe a bit too enamored of the attention - but maybe that would be muddying the waters a bit too much.

I did think it was a pretty solid episode.  I know L&O has addressed current events / hot topic issues all along, but it just seems more "on the nose" in the last few years.  They tend not to say anything particularly fresh when they address these issues either.  I'm still sort of processing my perspective on this.  Referring directly to, say, "Fox News" takes me out of the show a little - we get it!

[Triviatrish2]

20 hours ago, Serena McClain said:

I just made a rant on the L&O twitter page for whoever does the show's editing to add STARRING above Jeffrey Donovan's name during the intro credits. I do not see why and how was this even overlooked given he was to take over Anthony Anderson's spot when he had the STARRING title above HIS name. Talk about lazy editing to just use the image and credit of him when he was not starring at the time and leave it at that. 

I still find it a shame Anthony left. When this show came back, I was craving they could go a season without any casting changes which seems to have plagued the original run so much except for those last two seasons when the cast remained stable. But for TWO seasons really!!! They just could not keep a good cast together, something I like SVU for doing for the most part and CI to an extent. Anthony had to go and ruin that. I get Kevin Bernard been around the 27th precinct for a dozen years and from a timeline sense, it seems reasonable he would leave now, but we only got to have a little over two years with the character in regard to the actual onscreen run, so Anthony should have stayed. He wanted to do other things, but why even come back for such a short stint and this was a blessing given Blackish ended. Now what is he doing, nothing, so he better have a new gig soon that makes him leaving even reasonable or else he is going to look so dumb. These actors want to leave a good gig for them and most of the time not be able to find anything else for the longest time or something that is just as good. This acting thing is quite the challenge. So many actors out there with very little available roles, so they ought to manage what they got and make it stick for the long run or they will be at ground zero for God knows how long.

I do not think Jeffrey should have been given lead billing given his character was still fresh to the department. Mehcad Brooks should have taken that spot even though he is a newcomer but that does not mean an existing character has to automatically be the lead like when Jesse L. Martin left and Jeremy Sisto was given the lead as opposed to Anthony Anderson. After all, Chris Noth was never given lead on this show even when his top costars before him left during his run. Newcomers Paul Sorvino and Jerry Orbach took that mantle immediately. 

JMHO, Anthony Anderson added nothing to the show, and i, for one won't miss him.  I am really enjoying Jeffrey Donovan in his role, especially after some personal info, from the last episode.  I have watched EVERY Law and Order, 40 times over, because, nothing now, is as good as those episodes.  I do have my favorites, of course, Lenny, Claire, Jack, Mike, "Lou", Adam Schiff, Skoda, but, then, I have always accepted every newbie.  These new shows are getting better.

[shapeshifter]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

Agree that the ending was such a cliche.  As soon as they walked onto the steps and the abortion activist declined assistance to a cab, I knew she was a goner. 

Perhaps someone here knows exactly how many characters have been gunned down on the steps of the courthouse on L&O?
Maybe the writers thought hardcore fans would appreciate the carrying on of the tradition?

Has anyone IRL been gunned down on those steps?

[WendyCR72]

18 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Perhaps someone here knows exactly how many characters have been gunned down on the steps of the courthouse on L&O?
Maybe the writers thought hardcore fans would appreciate the carrying on of the tradition?

Has anyone IRL been gunned down on those steps?

I KNOW it happened more than once on the Mothership. Just cannot remember specifics. So many seasons!

But if we're invoking the franchise as a whole, Det. Alex Eames shot a suspect on the courthouse steps as he attempted to shoot and kill his stepmother in "Proud Flesh", Season 5, on Criminal Intent.

It's one trope Dick Wolf seems to adore across the board.

[CraftyHazel]

Mehcad Brooks is hella hot!  I approve this addition to the Law & Order universe.  He could possibly make me forget Jesse L. Martin.

[Aileen]

8 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

I would love to have confirmation of my mind's conclusion-jump to the casting call for the brother having been something like "Kyle Rittenhouse look alike," even though the crime was very different. Even if that wasn't explicitly stated in the casting call (probably it was just "white, young adult male with round, baby face") the resemblance kept me thinking he would get away with it——and, as often (always?) happens with these L&O guilty verdicts, we will never get to hear about the appeal(s).

Interesting. I thought he looked Josh Duggar-adjacent.

[illdoc]

17 hours ago, WendyCR72 said:

I KNOW it happened more than once on the Mothership. Just cannot remember specifics.

I remember one where someone was gunned down and Jack said something like "I thought he was shooting at me". I think there was one where some guy got shot down and the shooter (some union leader) went on trial. 

[Raja]

On 9/29/2022 at 9:33 PM, Xeliou66 said:

. I liked that besides the one very brief conversation between Cosgrove and Shaw there wasn’t much in the way of characters debating the abortion issue and were just doing their jobs. I’m liking the Cosgrove/Shaw pairing, Shaw is a nice addition who’s fitted in smoothly with the cast. I liked how they weren’t afraid to question the Governor and I liked Cosgrove giving him the warrant for his son’s arrest.

I haven't seen Detective Cosgrove over and over again like the others over the decades I guess Frank joins Detectives Curtis and Bernard as being portrayed as active in his faith. With Detectives Logan and Lupo being the most likely to argue with or mock in Lupo's case  their partner on that point

[GHScorpiosRule]

43 minutes ago, illdoc said:

I remember one where someone was gunned down and Jack said something like "I thought he was shooting at me". I think there was one where some guy got shot down and the shooter (some union leader) went on trial. 

No, that was the one where Daniel Hugh Kelly played that killer who had put out a contract on Jack. One of his sons was committing the new murders-the “loser” son and I think it was the other son who killed their father. “Criminal Law” from season 16, episode 9.

Other witnesses have been killed-but off screen:

1. Victim’s mother in “Prince of Darkness” from season two. Daughter also kidnapped. Most chilling ending. Hill’s look of horror was pitch perfect.

2. In season four’s finale, ”Old Friends”, witness played by Allison Janney, also killed by the mob offscreen.

This show, in its original run, didn’t lend itself to killing off witnesses/suspects for viewers to see in “draaaaaamaatic” manner. What made it great was the investigation and the trial.

38 minutes ago, Raja said:

I haven't seen Detective Cosgrove over and over again like the others over the decades I guess Frank joins Detectives Curtis and Bernard as being portrayed as active in his faith. With Detectives Logan and Lupo being the most likely to argue with or mock in Lupo's case  their partner on that point

Mike, who was Irish Catholic, wasn’t really devout, but did have faith-as he told Elizabeth during his required counseling after Max’s murder and in “Bad Faith”-the latter explained why he lost most of his beliefs.

[Xeliou66]

1 hour ago, Raja said:

I haven't seen Detective Cosgrove over and over again like the others over the decades I guess Frank joins Detectives Curtis and Bernard as being portrayed as active in his faith. With Detectives Logan and Lupo being the most likely to argue with or mock in Lupo's case  their partner on that point

Cosgrove is actually not that devout in his faith - in an episode last season (Wicked Game) he said he didn’t go to church and he had issues with the church’s teachings about sexuality. In this episode I didn’t take it that Cosgrove was against abortion so much as he was concerned about a minor going out of state without her parents knowledge and getting an abortion.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Xeliou66

[Serena McClain]

On 9/30/2022 at 9:11 AM, GHScorpiosRule said:

I see nothing wrong with Anderson leaving after the first season. The mothership has always had a rotating door for detectives and ADAs during its initial 20-year run. The exceptions being Orbach as Lennie; Martin as Green; Merkerson as Van Buren, Stephen Hill as Schiff (until he decided to leave after 10 seasons), and Waterston as McCoy.

Dzundza: 1 season

Sorvino:  1 season and a handful in the third season before he left

Florek: replaced in the fourth season

Moriarty: left  after four seasons

Noth: 5 seasons

Bratt: 4 seasons

Milovich: 1 season

Brooks: 3 seasons

Hennessy: 3 seasons

Lowell: 2 seasons

Harmon: 3 seasons

Rohmbot: 4 and a half seasons

Parrisse: 1 season

Weist: 2 seasons

Foghorn Leghorn Thompson: 4 seasons

Who knows how long Sisto, Anderson, La Garza or Roache would have stayed had the show not been cancelled? Merkerson was going to leave anyway, so we would have gotten a new squad commander.

Reading the comments for this episode makes me glad I dropped watching this revival.

I am aware of all of this. My point is I did not want this to be the case IN THE REVIVAL. I wanted the cast to be stable this time and we could maintain that for a few seasons. Anthony of course had to ruin that. Casting changes has plagued this show since the first production episode. The original DA before Adam did not come back when the show was picked up for a series, so there was a change even THAT early before Season 2. 

Edited October 1, 2022 by Serena McClain

[andromeda331]

Another shooting on the steps of the courthouse. What is that #10? It would be funny if one of them wasn't even phased by it anymore or asking why they keep using that exit.

I liked that the boyfriend knew she was pregnant and was for the abortion which was nice for a change. 

I have mixed feelings about the reactions of her parents and brother. Rich pro-life politican's daughter has an abortion. That's not exactly a shocker. As horrible as the Texas law is it's not like the wealthy and/or political families have anything to worry about. She's the type that doesn't have a hard time going to a state that she could get an abortion. A simple lie about visiting colleges and her parents' paid for her ticket and didn't even go with her or send someone else with her. It's more surprising they weren't for it. I guess their suppose to be more fanatical? It really didn't make sense.   

I wish the college was Hudson. 

[Joimiaroxeu]

Oh wow, Mechad Brooks has gained a noticeable amount of weight since I last saw him on Necessary Roughness ten years ago. I almost didn't recognize him.

Whaaaat? The governor of TX suggesting the feds might need step into a local criminal investigation? Not bloody likely. 🙄

Fifteen minutes in I'm betting it was the boyfriend who killed the girl. (ETA: Oh well, guess not.)

Holy crap, that TX family was something else. The mother sent the son to kill her daughter--his sister--just to protect the father's political career.

Well that ending was some unfortunate both sides-ism, IMO. The writers had to even things out by killing the pro-choice activist? Ehh, I might have to give up on this show. (Though I agree with comments upthread that it would've made more sense if the activist had been shot when she got back to TX. The steps of that NYC courthouse have become too much the cliché.)

Quote

Mehcad Brooks have some kind of physical disability

I doubt it since he played a pro football player on Necessary Roughness. I'm guessing here on L&O it's just extra pounds and his being momentarily out of shape.

[Xeliou66]

14 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

Oh wow, Mechad Brooks has gained a noticeable amount of weight since I last saw him on Necessary Roughness ten years ago. I almost didn't recognize him.

Whaaaat? The governor of TX suggesting the feds might need step into a local criminal investigation? Not bloody likely. 🙄

Fifteen minutes in I'm betting it was the boyfriend who killed the girl. (ETA: Oh well, guess not.)

Holy crap, that TX family was something else. The mother sent the son to kill her daughter--his sister--just to protect the father's political career.

Well that ending was some unfortunate both sides-ism, IMO. The writers had to even things out by killing the pro-choice activist? Ehh, I might have to give up on this show. (Though I agree with comments upthread that it would've made more sense if the activist had been shot when she got back to TX. The steps of that NYC courthouse have become too much the cliché.)

I doubt it since he played a pro football player on Necessary Roughness. I'm guessing here on L&O it's just extra pounds and his being momentarily out of shape.

I don’t think the mother sent the son to kill the daughter - she just wanted him to stop her from getting an abortion, she never encouraged him to kill her, but she didn’t tell him to calm down when he was sending her text messages saying he wanted to kill her, so there’s that. Another poster made a good point about how it would be pretty easy for someone from a wealthy, prominent family to get an abortion and keep it quiet, so I’m not sure why the family was so panicked, although I don’t think the killing was premeditated, I think the brother just killed her in a fit of rage after an argument, if it had been a planned murder he wouldn’t have killed her in the middle of a busy park where witnesses saw him. The only thing I can think of about why the family was panicked was if the daughter was planning to go public with her story and go against her father’s anti abortion stance, but nothing was said about that.

I didn’t think the ending with “both sideism” as much as just a shock value, over the top ending, I’m really not sure why they tacked that on when a more low key ending would’ve been much better, instead of an ending that managed to be predictable and over the top at the same time.

Edited October 1, 2022 by Xeliou66