S05.E04: Dear Offred

[Helena Dax]

The majority of Commanders we've seen only believe part of it, and certainly not that they should be pious. Otherwise, they wouldn't have the Jezebels, where they can have all the kinky (and of course, heterosexual) sex they want. Sex with Handmaids is a mix of power-trip and the chance of having a child, imo.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, Redrum said:

What really shines out as a flaw is that there doesn't appear to be any men in the Gilead power structure who genuinely believe the religious stuff yet they are towing that line. Putnam did get his hand cut off for getting Janine to do oral on him.

And that was only because Naomi asked the council to punish him, and the commander who was in charge at the time (the one who later died in the suicide bombing) decided to make an example of him to keep the other commanders in line. I'm sure many commanders treated their handmaids the way that Putnam treated Janine, but their wives didn't rat them out.

[AngelaHunter]

I  just tried to watch this, but didn't get very far. As much as I cannot stand the hangdog, Gollum-like Tuello kissing Serena's ass as though she's visiting royality instead of someone guilty of vile sex crimes, kidnapping, etc., I lost it at Luke raging at T, saying he "did nothing!" to rescue Luke's daughter. So I tried to recall what LUKE did to try save his wife and daughter, besides go to "baby's first protest, heh heh" (maybe he made some life-endangering, persistant efforts and I'm not recalling them?) and then we come back to him sitting there in his 2-million dollar house, drinking that "good red wine" and... I'm out.

I've had way more than enough June-face closeups too. It's all so tired now.

[SourK]

Am I crazy or did Luke say he didn't want the state to take Nichole away because she was their best chance to get Hannah back?

And then we got a clunky scene where he needlessly met with Serena in person, to establish that he wanted to ask her to get Hannah back, and then she said a bunch of Gilead stuff, but looked over his shoulder to let him know they weren't alone.

Is Luke going to trade Nichole to Serena for Hannah? Is that where this is going? I only sort of care.

On 9/29/2022 at 5:52 PM, greekmom said:

I never really understood why Serena was so gungho when Waterford and co. told her what was going to happen to the women (no reading, writing, etc).  My only guess was at that point Serena was so desperate for baby that she was going to say yes to anything to obtain one.  

I don't think she was necessarily in the room when that decision got made, but in so far as she was involved, we've seen from the flashbacks is that Fred used to treat her a lot more deferentially before she lost her rights, and she probably assumed that that would continue.

There are certain women (who are usually religious) who have an attitude like, "You just need to find a good man, and then you can trust him to protect you and put your fate in his hands, and it won't matter if you have legal rights, because he won't ever try to hurt you." I think this might have been one of those situations -- she thought Fred was a good man who would make sure she was okay, and she didn't realize what he would turn into once he thought he could get away with it.

This narrative (that I'm kind of making up) also gives her a way to blame Fred instead of blaming the system that she lobbied for and created. If Fred had been a better person, and if other particular men had been better people, and done what they were supposed to do, everything would have been fine -- so she doesn't have to conclude that the system inevitably produces this outcome; she can just conclude that particular people were bad.

On 9/29/2022 at 6:35 PM, Anela said:

Serena calling her Offred, is just another slap in the face. June is a person, not a possession of her dead husband. She continues to dehumanize her.

It's also a show of dominance because it deliberately evokes memories of a time when June was helpless and Serena got to bully her and ruin her life. It's kind of like if someone had a mean nickname in high school and you put that in cursive on their invitation to the reunion. Only, like, x100.

[Anela]

1 hour ago, SourK said:

Am I crazy or did Luke say he didn't want the state to take Nichole away because she was their best chance to get Hannah back?

And then we got a clunky scene where he needlessly met with Serena in person, to establish that he wanted to ask her to get Hannah back, and then she said a bunch of Gilead stuff, but looked over his shoulder to let him know they weren't alone.

Is Luke going to trade Nichole to Serena for Hannah? Is that where this is going? I only sort of care.

I don't think she was necessarily in the room when that decision got made, but in so far as she was involved, we've seen from the flashbacks is that Fred used to treat her a lot more deferentially before she lost her rights, and she probably assumed that that would continue.

There are certain women (who are usually religious) who have an attitude like, "You just need to find a good man, and then you can trust him to protect you and put your fate in his hands, and it won't matter if you have legal rights, because he won't ever try to hurt you." I think this might have been one of those situations -- she thought Fred was a good man who would make sure she was okay, and she didn't realize what he would turn into once he thought he could get away with it.

This narrative (that I'm kind of making up) also gives her a way to blame Fred instead of blaming the system that she lobbied for and created. If Fred had been a better person, and if other particular men had been better people, and done what they were supposed to do, everything would have been fine -- so she doesn't have to conclude that the system inevitably produces this outcome; she can just conclude that particular people were bad.

It's also a show of dominance because it deliberately evokes memories of a time when June was helpless and Serena got to bully her and ruin her life. It's kind of like if someone had a mean nickname in high school and you put that in cursive on their invitation to the reunion. Only, like, x100.

Yes, that’s what I was getting at. It’s so creepy and weird. Cruel. 

[greekmom]

13 hours ago, SourK said:

And then we got a clunky scene where he needlessly met with Serena in person, to establish that he wanted to ask her to get Hannah back, and then she said a bunch of Gilead stuff, but looked over his shoulder to let him know they weren't alone.

Is Luke going to trade Nichole to Serena for Hannah? Is that where this is going? I only sort of care.

Am I crazy or did Luke say he didn't want the state to take Nichole away because she was their best chance to get Hannah back?

I didn't catch that part.  I thought Luke didn't want Nichole taken away because regardless of not being his, she was half his wife's.  Plus, Serena could try and get her. 

Luke did try to get Hannah and June back through proper channels. He was working closely with the refugee centre.  He did also go to the protest where he first met the Waterfords briefly when he went to attack Waterford and he had a photo of him, June and Hannah.  He yelled: "Waterford you raped my wife!"  I don't see Luke as the type who would work outside of the system as June has.

I think the trade off between getting Hannah back was that Luke (and June to an extension) would leave Serena and the Culture centre alone.  If Serena was a smart woman, she would have either a) done the trade or b) tell him she has no authority to make such a trade.  Yet, she starts with her Gilead nonsense and tell him that Agnes is better off with her new parents. 

I find that as smart as Serena (and June) are, they make shitty mistakes due to the hate for one another and trying to one up. 

I for one, cannot wait to see Serena get hers at the Wheeler's home.  

[Baltimore Betty]

5 hours ago, greekmom said:

I for one, cannot wait to see Serena get hers at the Wheeler's home.  

You think Mrs. Wheeler is going Single White Female Serena? Hilarious!

[greekmom]

2 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

You think Mrs. Wheeler is going Single White Female Serena? Hilarious!

I think Mrs. Wheeler is going to take the baby. She had a very much Cheshire cat grin while Serena looked like she stepped into the spider's web.

[Redrum]

31 minutes ago, greekmom said:

I think Mrs. Wheeler is going to take the baby. She had a very much Cheshire cat grin while Serena looked like she stepped into the spider's web.

I think this too. The interesting question I had is this. Is this genuinely Gilead sanctioned? Are the Wheelers a loyal Gilead family? With orders from Gilead to take the baby and make Serena "disappear"? 

Or are they a crazy Canadian family who supports Gilead and things just go crazy bat shit? You know? Crazy desperate woman who wants a baby and really doesn't give two shits about Gilead and as soon as she's got Serena, she stops caring about what Gilead wants....

[Cinnabon]

4 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

You think Mrs. Wheeler is going Single White Female Serena? Hilarious!

I sure hope so. I wanted June to blow the bitch away, but this would also be acceptable.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 9/29/2022 at 2:33 PM, Redrum said:

Still, its a fair bitch point that Serena as a representative of the Gilead way of life should not be reading paperwork and signing things and all around displaying literacy when she is representing all Gilead women. She should be happy the burden of reading and making decisions for herself is gone. 

The whole centre is all a propaganda thing though right? Gilead leaning people in Canada can now look at how successful Serena is as proof that their way of life is not so bad. And if they can convince their government to adopt some Gilead-lite policies it would be a big win for the commanders.

Also Fuck off Luke with the building code violations. If like Tuello said that centre is considered Gilead territory, why would they have to follow the Ontario Building Code. And even if it was some kind of grey area due to the federal government not being clear, I doubt some local building/fire official would be the person who would want to sort that out. 

And the protests outside of the centre were also super disappointing. Like there were more people at the charity event that Luke spoke at. And speaking of which, it still makes no sense that Moira and June and dozens of other people aren't on every news channel speaking out about this.

Lastly for a second in the car, I really thought that Lydia was going to give Janine a job as an aunt.

[Cinnabon]

22 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Gilead leaning people in Canada can now look at how successful Serena is as proof that their way of life is not so bad.

What about Serena’s life seems “successful?”

23 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Also Fuck off Luke with the building code violations. If like Tuello said that centre is considered Gilead territory, why would they have to follow the Ontario Building Code.

Huh? He’s using anything and everything he can to bring Serena down. Why is that a negative? And why wouldn’t all buildings need to follow local building codes?

[Redrum]

7 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Lastly for a second in the car, I really thought that Lydia was going to give Janine a job as an aunt.

I feel like this is where this is going - that Janine will soon be an aunt and be a kinder, gentler version

8 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

The whole centre is all a propaganda thing though right? Gilead leaning people in Canada can now look at how successful Serena is as proof that their way of life is not so bad. And if they can convince their government to adopt some Gilead-lite policies it would be a big win for the commanders.

I genuinely don't think Gilead higher ups aside from Lawrence are flexible enough for this idea. 

[Cinnabon]

5 minutes ago, Redrum said:

I feel like this is where this is going - that Janine will soon be an aunt and be a kinder, gentler version

I genuinely don't think Gilead higher ups aside from Lawrence are flexible enough for this idea. 

And what Gilead policies would Canada or the US ever consider? They are terrorists, FFS.

[greekmom]

59 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Also Fuck off Luke with the building code violations. If like Tuello said that centre is considered Gilead territory, why would they have to follow the Ontario Building Code. And even if it was some kind of grey area due to the federal government not being clear, I doubt some local building/fire official would be the person who would want to sort that out. 

The building isn't an official embassy or consulate. It's a cultural center. So even though it maybe considered Gilead territory, I bet it may have to follow Ontario's building code due to it not being an official official building. 

[Kel Varnsen]

32 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Huh? He’s using anything and everything he can to bring Serena down. Why is that a negative? And why wouldn’t all buildings need to follow local building codes?

He's not really though. We saw in that episode where he was the speaker at that event that the whole refugee movement has rich and powerful friends. Meeting with those people and using their political influence seems like it would be better use of his time than reporting building code infractions. So would making speeches, doing interviews or actual protesting. Plus say the building inspector does issue citations and Gilead ignores them, then what? If they issue fines and they aren't paid are they going to arrest Serena because the building doesn't have enough smoke detectors? Is Luke also going to follow Serena's driver around to see if he makes any turns without using his turn signals.

34 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

What about Serena’s life seems “successful?”

From the eyes of some crazy wannabe Gilead person, she has power, she is going to have a baby, she is famous, and she is beautiful. There are obviously people out there that want to be her.

22 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

And what Gilead policies would Canada or the US ever consider? They are terrorists, FFS.

Not sure, but June made a comment that she was pretty worried that Gilead policies would be spreading to Canada. Having like actual diplomatic relations would be a first part of that. If a Gilead style political party started up in Canada, that wouldn't be too surprising at this point. Sure it might not actually make sense but not a lot about this show does.

[Cinnabon]

9 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Meeting with those people and using their political influence seems like it would be better use of his time than reporting building code infractions. So would making speeches, doing interviews or actual protesting.

Why not do all of them? In this case, it worked. Serena had to leave and find somewhere else to stay. Very immediate and satisfying, imo.

9 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

From the eyes of some crazy wannabe Gilead person, she has power,

She doesn’t have any real power, though. She is going to have a baby as a single woman. Gilead absolutely doesn’t support that. She’s pretty? So are millions of others. I’m not sure Gilead sees that as a virtue.

Edited October 2, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Kel Varnsen]

9 minutes ago, greekmom said:

The building isn't an official embassy or consulate. It's a cultural center. So even though it maybe considered Gilead territory, I bet it may have to follow Ontario's building code due to it not being an official official building. 

It's not official, but it seems like enough of a grey area that no local building official would want to step into that political shitshow.

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

Why not do all of them? In this case, it worked. Serena had to leave and find somewhere else to stay. Very immediate and satisfying, imo.

You wouldn't do them all because there are only so many hours a day, especially when you are trying to take care of a baby and support a partner who needs a lot of help. As for Serena, I am pretty sure she left because of the security risk. Because I would really love to know what would happen if she said no we aren't going to make those changes to our building.

[Cinnabon]

11 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

He's not really though. We saw in that episode where he was the speaker at that event that the whole refugee movement has rich and powerful friends. Meeting with those people and using their political influence seems like it would be better use of his time than reporting building code infractions. So would making speeches, doing interviews or actual protesting. Plus say the building inspector does issue citations and Gilead ignores them, then what? If they issue fines and they aren't paid are they going to arrest Serena because the building doesn't have enough smoke detectors? Is Luke also going to follow Serena's driver around to see if he makes any turns without using his turn signals.

From the eyes of some crazy wannabe Gilead person, she has power, she is going to have a baby, she is famous, and she is beautiful. There are obviously people out there that want to be her.

Not sure, but June made a comment that she was pretty worried that Gilead policies would be spreading to Canada. Having like actual diplomatic relations would be a first part of that. If a Gilead style political party started up in Canada, that wouldn't be too surprising at this point. Sure it might not actually make sense but not a lot about this show does.

Canada is still a democracy. I’m sure they already have some fringe political groups. They don’t have the power to set national policy. 

Edited October 2, 2022 by Cinnabon

[Kel Varnsen]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

Canada is still a democracy. I’m sure they already have some fringe political groups. They don’t have the power to set national policy. 

You would hope they wouldn't. On the other hand it is also kind of scary how in like a couple of years, Canada's position has gone from believing the letters from women trapped in Gilead and telling the Gilead representatives to get the fuck out, to actually welcoming Gilead representatives and letting them set up an official location in Toronto to promote their way of life. That seems like a pretty huge change to me and makes me think the fringe groups have a surprising amount of influence. Especially when what is happening in Gilead hasn't really changed for the better at all.

[Cinnabon]

30 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

You would hope they wouldn't. On the other hand it is also kind of scary how in like a couple of years, Canada's position has gone from believing the letters from women trapped in Gilead and telling the Gilead representatives to get the fuck out, to actually welcoming Gilead representatives and letting them set up an official location in Toronto to promote their way of life. That seems like a pretty huge change to me and makes me think the fringe groups have a surprising amount of influence. Especially when what is happening in Gilead hasn't really changed for the better at all.

It’s still a democracy. 

[greekmom]

11 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Canada is still a democracy. I’m sure they already have some fringe political groups. They don’t have the power to set national policy. 

We are a democracy. We have the Canadian Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  If you want to know about the fringe groups, you can google about it since we can't talk politics on the boards. 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, greekmom said:

We are a democracy. We have the Canadian Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.  If you want to know about the fringe groups, you can google about it since we can't talk politics on the boards. 

I’m talking about Canada in the context of this show.

[Redrum]

36 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I’m talking about Canada in the context of this show.

Yeah, fictional Canada where its neighbor to the south is a Christianized Taliban. For the record, when I post about Canada in the Handmaid's Tale threads, I am always referring to fictional Canada unless I specify real world Canada. They are different. I mean, apparently the government of THT Canada is centered in Toronto, not Ottawa.  I frankly question how tv show Canada can afford the massive influx of American refugees staying for years. All while dealing with the world wide fertility issues....

As for democracy, sadly the reality is that a lot of places are democracies until they suddenly aren't. It doesn't take much.  

[greekmom]

38 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Yeah, fictional Canada where its neighbor to the south is a Christianized Taliban. For the record, when I post about Canada in the Handmaid's Tale threads, I am always referring to fictional Canada unless I specify real world Canada. They are different. I mean, apparently the government of THT Canada is centered in Toronto, not Ottawa.  I frankly question how tv show Canada can afford the massive influx of American refugees staying for years. All while dealing with the world wide fertility issues....

As for democracy, sadly the reality is that a lot of places are democracies until they suddenly aren't. It doesn't take much.  

I don't see much difference in Canada re: fiction vs real life except for the fact that a) it has a TON of American refugees and b) their neighbour has changed to either a Christianized Taliban or conflicted areas that are in dispute.

There has been no mention that the government of Canada in THT is now located in Toronto vs Ottawa.  The Ontario government is located in Toronto and the US would have a consulate in Toronto which would take more of an active role since Toronto has "Little America".

Did they ever say how many actual American refugees Canada accepted?  We may think it could be less than we think as there are still pockets of people in the disputed areas. Plus didn't Texas declare its self as a Republic? 

[Redrum]

I'm more making the distinction that THT Canada isn't necessarily identical or likely to act in an identical fashion versus Real Canada. 

For example, in real world Canada, there's no fertility issue which means that real world Canada has no pending population collapse to worry about. THT Canada is facing that problem and there's no reason to think whatever they have implemented is working better than Gilead's system. 

Refugees, even a small amount, generally make for disagreements and problems. Real Canada doesn't have an American refugee problem at all  and pretty good relations with a democratic neighbor to the south while THT Canada has "Little America" and a very hostile border

37 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Did they ever say how many actual American refugees Canada accepted?  We may think it could be less than we think as there are still pockets of people in the disputed areas.

I do agree with this but I also sense the American refugees are pretty vocal and problem causing. Its been seven years of Americans crossing the border, doing angel flights, going wilding in no man's land... THT Canada just might be getting tired of this nonsense.

Real Canada isn't facing the same pressures a THT Canada would . We're close to ten years into the occupation of the US... THT Canada is going to be a different place no matter what. 

But that is just me - I don't expect THT Canada to do things as Real Canada in the current world would. 

[Kel Varnsen]

9 hours ago, Redrum said:

I frankly question how tv show Canada can afford the massive influx of American refugees staying for years. All while dealing with the world wide fertility issues....

I have often wondered if the refugees thing might actually be a benefit to Canada. Now of course the double whammy of steadily declining birth rates and our biggest trading partner disappearing would hammer the Canadian economy. Especially since I doubt a lot of people from overseas would be interested in emigrating to Canada based on them sharing a border with Gilead. So in a case like this, a bunch of people from the former US, most of whom are working age and can speak English, showing up could potentially be a boost to the economy. Especially when you consider that the real Canadian economy ships a lot of natural resources to the US and the buys back finished stuff. If people in Canada still want to have that stuff, manufacturing in Canada would have to ramp up crazy fast, which means you need workers.

[Redrum]

1 minute ago, Kel Varnsen said:

So in a case like this, a bunch of people from the former US, most of whom are working age and can speak English, showing up could potentially be a boost to the economy. Especially when you consider that the real Canadian economy ships a lot of natural resources to the US and the buys back finished stuff. If people in Canada still want to have that stuff, manufacturing in Canada would have to ramp up crazy fast, which means you need workers.

Its a short term positive, I agree, and why I don't have a problem with Luke having a nice home. Its still hugely problematic. The refugees aren't coming with investing money. They also aren't necessarily skilled and still would need resources. Say Janine for example made it to Canada - thats a whole lotta PTSD and mental issues that will suck up resources while she heals into someone who can maybe wait tables. 

[Haleth]

One thing that was established is that Gilead law prohibits single mothers from raising children, only Godly married couples can have kids.  So I'm hoping the Wheelers claim Serena's baby then kick her to the curb.

[Ceindreadh]

11 hours ago, Haleth said:

One thing that was established is that Gilead law prohibits single mothers from raising children, only Godly married couples can have kids.  So I'm hoping the Wheelers claim Serena's baby then kick her to the curb.

Serena is a widow though, which is different from being a single mother.  Although I'm not sure that Gilead would make that distinction. 

[Redrum]

17 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

Serena is a widow though, which is different from being a single mother.  Although I'm not sure that Gilead would make that distinction. 

Actually , if they're genuinely religious, then its a big difference. Single moms with no husbands are whores who fuck and need punishment. A wife who is widowed while pregnant is a godly woman doing right by her husband. 

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Ceindreadh said:

Serena is a widow though, which is different from being a single mother.  Although I'm not sure that Gilead would make that distinction. 

Still a mother raising a child alone, without a husband.

[Redrum]

17 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Still a mother raising a child alone, without a husband.

Agreed but one was in a religiously sanctioned marriage and not a whore, and one was a whore. 

Unless she killed her husband, a widow usually isn't blamed for her circumstance while a single mom is routinely judged for spreading her legs. 

It *shouldn't* make a difference but it does. And yes, I think there are some men in Gilead who care what happens to their wives in the event of their death. 

[Kel Varnsen]

26 minutes ago, Redrum said:

Agreed but one was in a religiously sanctioned marriage and not a whore, and one was a whore. 

Unless she killed her husband, a widow usually isn't blamed for her circumstance while a single mom is routinely judged for spreading her legs. 

It *shouldn't* make a difference but it does. And yes, I think there are some men in Gilead who care what happens to their wives in the event of their death. 

There must be some kind of process for wives who become widows with children, especially since Gilead has been at war for it's entire history so this must happen a lot. Because women can't work, or own property or control money or read. So what happens if their husbands die and they have kids who exactly takes care of them. Or does the rest of society not really care because they are "just women". Or even weirder, what happens if you are the mom of like a 10 year old boy. He can read and you can't, does he become the head of household and can make decisions and boss his mom around?

[Redrum]

5 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

There must be some kind of process for wives who become widows with children, especially since Gilead has been at war for it's entire history so this must happen a lot. Because women can't work, or own property or control money or read. So what happens if their husbands die and they have kids who exactly takes care of them. Or does the rest of society not really care because they are "just women"

I mean, I can see Serena getting fucked over because she's uppity and also because the circumstances of Fred's defection are probably known. But the average wife with a child? My honest assumption if there was no male relative alive is that a wife would be married off to an eligible male in need of a wife before they'd simply handmaid her. 

[chocolatine]

42 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

There must be some kind of process for wives who become widows with children, especially since Gilead has been at war for it's entire history so this must happen a lot. Because women can't work, or own property or control money or read. So what happens if their husbands die and they have kids who exactly takes care of them. Or does the rest of society not really care because they are "just women". Or even weirder, what happens if you are the mom of like a 10 year old boy. He can read and you can't, does he become the head of household and can make decisions and boss his mom around?

Given the apparent shortage of children, I'm sure the child gets "re-assigned" to another commander's family. And the wife becomes an Aunt or Martha if she hasn't committed any transgressions, or be forced to work at Jezebels or in the colonies if she has.

Edited October 5, 2022 by chocolatine

[Kel Varnsen]

12 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Given the apparent shortage of children, I'm sure the child gets "re-assigned" to another commander's family. And the wife becomes an Aunt or Martha if she hasn't committed any transgressions, or be forced to work at Jezebels or in the colonies if she has.

I wonder about that, like logically it would make sense, especially if the wife gave birth to her child instead of it actually being a handmaids kid. At the same time I am not sure that Gilead men give enough of a shit to bother taking care of women whose husbands are dead, or to differentiate between a widow and other types of single mothers. Plus I can totally see single Gilead men, especially future commanders wanting young new wives, not the "already used" wife of some dead commander.

[Redrum]

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Plus I can totally see single Gilead men, especially future commanders wanting young new wives, not the "already used" wife of some dead commander.

They don't get any choice what they get. A wife with a child is fertile

1 hour ago, Kel Varnsen said:

At the same time I am not sure that Gilead men give enough of a shit to bother taking care of women whose husbands are dead, or to differentiate between a widow and other types of single mothers.

They may not give a shit about other peoples wives but their own? To use examples from the show - do we think Laurence had no concerns over what would happen to his wife if he died? Fred might punish Serena in a fit of anger but he really be so unconcerned as to not care if she was raped and tortured as a handmaid if he died of a heart attack? Nick seems to like his current wife. Now there's always going to be douchebags like Putnam but frankly why make a distinction between Wives and Handmaids at all if the only end result is to be enslaved as either a Handmaid or a Martha even if you were a loyal and dedicated Wife?

The whole point of the Wife is to raise the children and carry on the man's line. If a Commander knows that the second he dies, his kids stop being HIS KIDS and are 'reassigned' to someone else and his Wife is punished with enslavement instead of raising HIS kids to adulthood... whats the point in having children again?

Mind you, I am probably putting more thought than the writers have into the world structure. Even guys in the taliban love their wives and provide for them sometimes, and they certainly would have issues with their children being assigned to non family in the event of the patriarch's death. Whats the point of being a patriarch when your family is immediately disintegrated upon your death?

[Shermie]

On 10/1/2022 at 9:14 PM, Cinnabon said:

What about Serena’s life seems “successful?”

She’s pregnant. That’s rare and desired in THT world.

I would assume that Serena would become a Handmaid if she’s not allowed to raise her own child. She’s fertile, so in a world with extreme infertility, she would be forced to try and make more babies.

[Redrum]

13 minutes ago, Shermie said:

I would assume that Serena would become a Handmaid if she’s not allowed to raise her own child. She’s fertile, so in a world with extreme infertility, she would be forced to try and make more babies.

I mean, sure but... she and June are both at the tail end of their fertile years. 

[Kel Varnsen]

21 hours ago, Redrum said:

The whole point of the Wife is to raise the children and carry on the man's line. If a Commander knows that the second he dies, his kids stop being HIS KIDS and are 'reassigned' to someone else and his Wife is punished with enslavement instead of raising HIS kids to adulthood... whats the point in having children again?

The issue I would see is that Gilead leadership is full of hypocrisy. They talk about how the whole point if their system is to promote population growth, but as we have seen many times (including Lawrence in this episode), it's really for the men who make it to be commanders to have power (especially over women) and enjoy the "perks" as it were. So I can't see any commander lining up to marry a widow like Serena just like the commanders wouldn't go for handmaids not being in their house. Sure their former dead husbands might care, but there dead so what are they going to do about it?

[Baltimore Betty]

On 10/4/2022 at 7:55 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Or even weirder, what happens if you are the mom of like a 10 year old boy. He can read and you can't, does he become the head of household and can make decisions and boss his mom around?

Think England or France in the 1500's where a boy would be crowned king at 8 years old but his mother the queen cannot not rule because she is not a man.

The way the commanders flex their power, especially Putnam makes me think that prior to the insurrection and complete take over they were not exactly go getters at what ever job they had in the past, that and tiny penises.

[Shermie]

2 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Think England or France in the 1500's where a boy would be crowned king at 8 years old but his mother the queen cannot not rule because she is not a man.

That was England until 2010-ish, actually.

11 hours ago, Redrum said:

12 hours ago, Shermie said:

I would assume that Serena would become a Handmaid if she’s not allowed to raise her own child. She’s fertile, so in a world with extreme infertility, she would be forced to try and make more babies.

I mean, sure but... she and June are both at the tail end of their fertile years. 

Beggars can’t be choosers.

[Redrum]

32 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Beggars can’t be choosers.

Yes but as been insisted on, the Handmaid program isn't really about fertility, its about Commanders getting their kink on by fucking some young thing with the wife watching. Neither Serena or June are likely to get pregnant again, and while I think they are attractive 40ish women, they aren't "hot". So if they're not fertile and they're not attractive for fucking, what's the point? 

Aside from the show giving us more forced rape, that is.

[Save Yourself]

3 hours ago, Shermie said:

5 hours ago, Baltimore Betty said:

Think England or France in the 1500's where a boy would be crowned king at 8 years old but his mother the queen cannot not rule because she is not a man.

That was England until 2010-ish, actually.

I don’t understand your response, the Queen ruled until her recent death then Charles was made King, until then he was a Prince. 

[Redrum]

48 minutes ago, Save Yourself said:

I don’t understand your response, the Queen ruled until her recent death then Charles was made King, until then he was a Prince. 

Charles was the firstborn son. Starting in 2010 or so, instead of the firstborn son, it goes to the firstborn *child*. In thoery this is huge. in reality since William's first kid was a boy, it won't turn any heads until George has kids. 

The Queen only became the Queen because she was the eldest child of a king who had no sons. 

[lavenderblue]

I took Baltimore Betty's comment to mean the type of situation where a king would be killed in battle, say, and his child would rule and probably have an uncle or other male relative as regent, while his mother the Queen Consort, as a mere widow, might have limited political power, or where a female might be barred from the throne completely due to Salic law, but her sons could possibly then resume the lineage depending on the law's application. This is very much what I could see with a widow in good standing, and even the idea of remarrying her to another commander could introduce some wrinkles -- is this kid now to carry on that commander's name and legacy? etc. Similar to the fears of marrying off royal widows.

The British example is somewhat different; before the law was changed beginning with William and Catherine's kids, a firstborn female child of a monarch would indeed be behind any younger brother(s) in the line of succession, but as with Elizabeth II, if she's the eldest female or only child, she was not only the heir presumptive to the throne, but also ahead of other male relatives -- her own sons as well as, if she's the daughter of a male heir/next in line, any uncles younger than her father (this was true for both Elizabeth II and Victoria, whose father was never king but was the oldest of George III's sons to produce a legitimate heir after the death of George IV's daughter). Though even this still feels too progressive for Gilead; the idea of, like, a grown-up Angela/Charlotte Putnam having more popular authority than some noob commander recently promoted from guardian seems unlikely. (I would be sort of interested in how this scenario might play out, though...)

Edited October 6, 2022 by lavenderblue

[Cornhusker12]

Tuello goes down as the most boring character in tv history. Utterly useless and SO dull since day 1.

[bettername2come]

My main thought on the episode: No cover of "The Chain" will ever be as good as the original. Don't try. 

[Anela]

Janine is too good for all of them. Good for her, speaking up, even though she could be hurt even more, or killed. 

Who is Serena to question God's will? Why did she question the death of her rapist husband? 

So, Lawrence doesn't care about the rapes of women, because commanders need a little kink. Why do we like him?