S01.E06: The Princess And The Queen

[magdalene]

19 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I would love it if the show sidestepped a war. Wouldn't that be a lovely shocker? 

But I would also like for there to be a lot more reasons than Rhynaera is a woman. I want economic reasons mostly. 

I will be out when the war starts. I am so tired of war stories. 

This has all been prologue so far.  Smiles. And I have enjoyed it very much. I'll be sticking around until my faves exit permanently - and with those constant time jumps and at the speed this story is going may be sooner than I thought. Meh.

I keep reading Vhagar referred to as Daemon's family dragon. It doesn't work that way. She is a free agent now. The best they can hope for is that she accepts the one daughter who doesn't already have a dragon.

I keep reading that Rhaenyra's sons are not real Targs - oh yes, they are, through the blood of their mother.

I don't give 2 cents for Leanor's continued survival after the fate of Lionel and Harwin Strong. Taking all your allies away and isolating you is a classic war fare tactic.

Joe Magician - he knows his stuff - thinks the sigil of Larys is a fire fly. Along with other people I have started to wonder if Larys is err very close to those rats that are plaguing the castle.

[Tyro49]

Last episode when Rhaenra said "we will do our duty" regarding the marriage, I thought she implied they would consummate their marriage and have at least one child together before following their own proclivities. ( Being uninterested does not necessarily mean incapable.)

[LanceM]

1 hour ago, magdalene said:

This has all been prologue so far.  Smiles. And I have enjoyed it very much. I'll be sticking around until my faves exit permanently - and with those constant time jumps and at the speed this story is going may be sooner than I thought. Meh.

As long as your faves last until episode 8 you should be good as that will be last time jump for not only this season but subsequent seasons as well per the showrunners. ☺️

[Roseanna]

Laenor has no other character traits that he is gay and accepts the paternity of his wife's children. Yet, he is the son of "the Queen that never was" and her mighty husband. Has he no ambition at all or isn't he even afraid what happens when Viserys dies?    

[PatsyandEddie]

Laenor did express a desire to go back to the Stepstones as there was a potential fight brewing. He did fight well under his father and Daemon against the Crabfeeder. 

[king of bullshit]

On 9/29/2022 at 1:01 AM, Roseanna said:

It's not about Rhaenyra and Alicent personally but the situation where they and their children are politically, just as Otto taught to her naive daughter.

The personal aspect is the basis by which we determine how logical it is for Alicent to be taking the political aspect so seriously. 

To wit: is it logical that Alicent has come to believe that Rhaenyra is in possession of an unbridled greed and ambition for the throne so strong, it overwhelms any affection she ever held for her? (The same Rhaenyra that once expressed(in ep 1) disinterest in her position if Aemma bore a son; stating that the only thing she wanted was to travel the world on dragonback with her best friend, eating cake.)

All because Rhaenyra lied about being a virgin and directly or indirectly(depending on how much Alicent knows), effected her father's dismissal?  

On 9/28/2022 at 7:51 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

I can't decide if that is high praise or low praise, given your screen name, lol. :)

I lean more towards the artistry of the act and as such my judgement tends to be based on performance rather than necessity.

To judge:

Poise: The ideal is a reaction that is indistinguishable from a genuine one. Her body language evidenced slightly, the fear that comes with being caught. The way she paced away and spoke with her back turned. The way she looked down as if taking time to think. These deduct from her score.

Positively, she didn't buckle and held firm; turned the tables by pointing out the weakness of the accusations(that they were based on rumors).

Strategy: It was a good tactical decision to partially concede by confessing that she had been with Daemon. A good bullshitter knows when to pull and when to give and how too much of either can lead to increased suspicion.

Sophistry: As we say in the biz: technicalities, technicalities, technicalities. Always lean on the technical truth. They're a good fallback. While many will see through it to the lie, many will not as evidenced by the several discussions held here over the matter. 

There are many additional considerations. As king, I'm disinclined to reveal the metric by which her score is tabulated but she earns a 5.03 on the bullshitery scale(of 1-10). Fairly solid, especially for her age. Most people don't crack a 4. Overall, a promising bullshiter.

Here's where I'd be saying: "I'll be following her career with great interest" if it weren't for the fact that 1) I'm about to drop the show lol, and 2) Adult Rhaenyra may have well tanked said career already. The "ruse" with her children is face-palm inducing stuff to any true bullshitter.

[Cristofle]

20 hours ago, blackwing said:

When she and Laenor had their discussion before the engagement, she said she expected them to "do our duty by each other" and then they could "dine as they please".  He couldn't have forced himself to do his duty once or twice?  

It's a great question and one I really wish the episode would have answered. Have Rhaenyra and Laenor ever tried to conceive children? If not, WHY not? Just from my impression of their connection in the previous episode, Rhaenyra seemed to have come around more to "doing her duty" whereas Laenor was more uncomfortable and anxious, so I wouldn't think it was her refusing to ever even try. But that's speculation because the show didn't address it. It's possible they will later - Rhaenyra and Daemon have been shown to be candid with each other and Daemon is clearly aware of the issue in this episode. Also, they frequently talk in High Valyrian to each other to box others out. But I wish it had been done in THIS episode, lol. It would have only taken a couple lines of dialogue between Rhaenyra and Laenor. If for some reason Rhaenyra and Laenor were not able to have sex with each other, or tried and were not able to conceive, what made her/them decide that going on with having children with Harwin was the solution? He's very obviously...not Laenor. LOL. 

[Roseanna]

54 minutes ago, king of bullshit said:

The personal aspect is the basis by which we determine how logical it is for Alicent to be taking the political aspect so seriously. 

To wit: is it logical that Alicent has come to believe that Rhaenyra is in possession of an unbridled greed and ambition for the throne so strong, it overwhelms any affection she ever held for her? (The same Rhaenyra that once expressed(in ep 1) disinterest in her position if Aemma bore a son; stating that the only thing she wanted was to travel the world on dragonback with her best friend, eating cake.)

All because Rhaenyra lied about being a virgin and directly or indirectly(depending on how much Alicent knows), effected her father's dismissal?  

In the power struggle, one doesn't ask is it *likely* that somebody will become dangerous to you, but is it *possible* that will not.  

[blackwing]

I'm still trying to figure out... what was the purpose of the 10 year time jump?  I don't see much change in the characters other than some of the teens got replaced with adults.  None of the characters have really changed in terms of their goals and ambitions, except perhaps for Daemon, who seems content just flying around on his dragon and being away from the politics of Kings Landing and Westeros.

Why couldn't they have just started the show at this point in time?  Nothing has really changed.  With the way things are presented, I find it a bit jarring at how little progress was made offscreen.  The king was apparently about to die, but ten years later, he's still alive, looking old, and still seemingly about to die.  Rhaenyra was heir, much to the consternation of Alicent, and 10 years later, Rhaenyra is still heir. 

You'd think that Alicent would have come to terms with that.  Or if not, surely she would have gotten the king to change his mind.  She could have appealed to him saying that he as a man was chosen as king over his cousin, even though his cousin may have been older and perhaps had a better claim.  That he needed to preserve history and name Aegon as heir.

I don't get why she is so uber paranoid that somebody is going to kill her and her children.  They've had TEN YEARS to do it and haven't done it, why would anyone start now?  Especially since she has ostensibly come to terms with the fact that Rhaenyra will be the next monarch.

And the ten year gap didn't do Laenor any favours either.  He hasn't matured at all and he's still pining away over the dead Joffrey even though Joffrey has likely been replaced many times over.  How embarrassing for Rhaenyra to have her child named Joffrey.

I also don't buy that Criston Cole wouldn't have moved away years ago.  He asked Rhaenyra to run away with him.  She said no.  Why would he want to see her every day?  Especially after disgracing himself at the banquet?  I feel like he would have been sent away to the Night's Watch, it seems kind of ridiculous that he wasn't.

[cambridgeguy]

4 hours ago, blackwing said:

I don't get why she is so uber paranoid that somebody is going to kill her and her children.  They've had TEN YEARS to do it and haven't done it, why would anyone start now?  Especially since she has ostensibly come to terms with the fact that Rhaenyra will be the next monarch.

Because in her mind Rhaenyra can't do anything as long as Viserys is still around.  Once he's gone then the ruling sovereign can get away with a lot more than the heir apparent.  Plus it's obvious that Jace and his brothers are bastards, so many lords would be more likely to look at Aegon as the true heir, which is a big threat to Rhaenyra's rule.

[paigow]

6 hours ago, blackwing said:

I also don't buy that Criston Cole wouldn't have moved away years ago.  Why would he want to see her every day?   I feel like he would have been sent away to the Night's Watch

You answered your own question... Live in the middle of nowhere until you die or suffer looking at the Girlfriend That Never Was

[RobertDeSneero]

9 hours ago, blackwing said:

I'm still trying to figure out... what was the purpose of the 10 year time jump? 

No one important died during those ten years.  Someone has to die each episode.

[jeansheridan]

On 9/29/2022 at 4:38 AM, Roseanna said:

Your suggestion of "economic reasons" for war is good itself but the problem is how on earth to present them in the show. In this show they couldn't even deal with such a thing as the maintenance of soldiers

In GOT we found out the Lannister gold mines were failing and that was one reason why Tywin made his move for the crown (or position his grandchildren to rule). The alliance with the Tyrells was about food and money. Cercei needed their money later to pay for mercenaries.  I love that stuff!

Sansa worried about feeding Dany's soldiers too.

I don't mind a battle or two. When the Zombies attacked the fort/village.  Battle of the Bastards was well staged. Seeing Dany use Drogon on an open field was necessary to know his strength and see her in battle. But all the other battles were kind of tedious. The wall battle was messy, the burning of Kings Landing was repetitious and had little wow factor other than Drogon's blasting through the wall. And I think the final white walker battle is widely despised for how it looked and played out. 

Basically I think less is more. If season 1 only has that one battle with Daemon, I am good.

Edited October 1, 2022 by jeansheridan

[king of bullshit]

On 9/30/2022 at 1:21 PM, Roseanna said:

In the power struggle, one doesn't ask is it *likely* that somebody will become dangerous to you, but is it *possible* that will not.  

Speaking from the show's perspective, it became "possible" in Alicent's eyes only after Rhaenyra's deception. My argument is that the connection between the two makes no sense.

I'm not completely sure but you seem to be speaking in general. That it makes sense(for one to suspect their children will be eliminated) from the get-go, even before any act on the part of one friend rousing distrust in the other. That's a subtly different argument that I'm not particularly inclined to get into right now, though I'd still disagree.

Edited October 1, 2022 by king of bullshit

[LanceM]

I am starting to think this paranoia about Rhaenyra killing her children is going to be like a self fulfilling prophecy for Alicent at this point.

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, LanceM said:

I am starting to think this paranoia about Rhaenyra killing her children is going to be like a self fulfilling prophecy for Alicent at this point.

It may or rather things use to escalate by mistrust from both sides until circumstances area such that deed nobody has wanted is done because it seems necessary for safety.

On the other hand, Rhaenyra has herself weakened her position by her reckless behavior. Without her fling and with legitimate children she would probably have a different relationship with Alicent. Then her offer of maarriage between their children would have made sense.

[millennium]

Is there a point to this story?  Some overarching theme like "winter is coming?"  Have I missed it?

Because all I'm seeing is a hodgepodge of character studies, some stilted dialogue and the obligatory dragon scenes.

I don't like even one character.

They're trying too hard, too soon with the Larys character.   What was this, his second or third appearance and he already kills his father and brother?   Also, is it an unwritten rule the scheming Machiavellian type must have a name that rhymes with Varys?  Nudge, nudge, wink, wink -- see what we did there?  Larys/Varys -- get it?

And how could anyone in that palace miss the obvious humor of a king who has lost his hand confronting the dilemma of losing his Hand?  Not even one joke!  Tyrion would have gone there. 

[paigow]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

And how could anyone in that palace miss the obvious humor of a king who has lost his hand confronting the dilemma of losing his Hand?  Not even one joke!  Tyrion would have gone there. 

See what happens when Daemon gets banished?

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, millennium said:

They're trying too hard, too soon with the Larys character.   What was this, his second or third appearance and he already kills his father and brother?   Also, is it an unwritten rule the scheming Machiavellian type must have a name that rhymes with Varys?  Nudge, nudge, wink, wink -- see what we did there?  Larys/Varys -- get it?

Also, the evil man must look ugly. 

[Ottis]

Just catching up because this show has mostly bored me and I took a while to get to it. Quite the “strong women, dumb men” opening. Who else but dumb men would say cavalierly “hope the birth was easy!” While the tough mother walks bleeding through the castle. The queen is reasonable, Sir Cristan is a jealous ass. The blonde teens are jerks. The gay husband is a fool. Ok, we get it already. Men bad, women good, in a setting where women are forced to watch men rule, poorly. Can we have something happen now?

Edited October 7, 2022 by Ottis

[AntFTW]

Deleted

Edited October 12, 2022 by AntFTW

[Smad]

Daemon's fireproof-ness is even stronger than Dany's. Whenever she had to go through fire, her clothes burned off. As they should. But Dameon emerges fully clothed from passing through dragon fire and he isn't naked? That's some serious magic there Daemon. Can he extend that into a fireproof force field or something in the coming battles? Would be helpful.

[Archangel]

On 9/25/2022 at 7:57 PM, Lassus said:

My overwhelming thought for this entire episode was simply "What in the fuck is Alicent's damage?"  Ten years+ of no indication Rhaenyra's going to try and murder you and your family to death and you're still convinced?  For what the fuck reason?

Because her father filled her head with that prior to him leaving after being dismissed because Viserys figured out what a calculating, manipulative prick he is. Aemma wasn’t even wrapped by the Silent Sisters and Otto has Alicent going in to “offer comfort” to Viserys over Aemma’s death he caused but was inevitable. Five pregnancies in 10yrs time all ending in either miscarriage, still birth or crib death was a foreshadow of what would occur but Viserys had to have that male heir. It cost him the woman he truly loved. Alicent has become a bitter bitch because her relationship with Viserys is one of as Rhanerya said a few episodes ago “being imprisoned in a castle and made to squeeze out heirs”. There is no love or attraction there. 
 

I can’t wait for Larys to meet his hopefully grisly end. What a prick for murdering his father and brother. I feel no sympathy for Alicent when she realizes that Larys hired someone to do it. She is no innocent. I think in season 2 we will hopefully see a more developed side to her character. I can’t believe she will be withering away without anyone taking care of her if Ser Cristin Cole hadn’t had that job low these many years. 
 

The rats have got to go. They creep me out every episode they are shown. 

Edited February 21, 2023 by Archangel