S01.E04: Articles of Faith

[Scarlett45]

Quote

The Brobergs fight to restore normalcy as they prepare to face B. in court; Jan's anxiety about the mission snowballs with time; Mary Ann's unanswered questions about Mexico and growing disconnect with Bob lead her to a gut-wrenching decision.

Air Date: October 06 2022

[peachmangosteen]

I think this may be the best of the true crime remake shows that have been so prevalent lately. The acting is fantastic and the story is compelling. 

I have always found Jake Lacy kinda creepy so he was perfectly cast in this lol.

[Armchair Critic]

I could sympathize with their lawyer's frustration with the Brobergs. They let B lie in bed with Jan because of some therapy? smdh

[Scarlett45]

B is truly a POS and his wife is right behind him. 
 

As a lawyer, I totally understood the lawyer’s frustration when he said “you didn’t send the original!!”. I don’t know why her parents are so concerned about this “marriage”, B is already married, no marriage would be valid, and she didn’t even go to the courthouse. It was all a fraud- but again these people are not sophisticated. 

9 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I could sympathize with their lawyer's frustration with the Brobergs. They let B lie in bed with Jan because of some therapy? smdh

I also like that the lawyer pointed out that he was of the same faith and that didn’t have anything to do with it. I also liked that the FBI agent pointed out that we trust people who are familiar to us. 

So far I think Bob is more understandable than Mary-Ann. Bob realizes he made a mistake trusting B, wants to stay away from him, tried to make things right- he went to the church elders because he didn’t want anything he did to be used as blackmail to hurt the family or stop B from being prosecuted. Bob is TRYING. Mary-Ann has her damn head in the sand. I wonder how much gender dynamics play into this (especially within their cultural group), Bob was attracted to B too, but he has a stronger sense of himself and pull towards what he thinks his responsibilities are. Maybe that’s because Bob & B are social equals. 

[Snazzy Daisy]

Wait! Jan was not sexually assaulted during the 1st kidnap?

ETA: No penetration but the Brobergs were in denial re other forms of sexual abuse.

And the pills were purely antihistamines? 😳

I don’t believe Bob and Mary Ann were that naive. Sorry.

Re Gail Berchtold, why is this show trying to portray her as some sort of enabler or accomplice to B? Her true character or pure dramatization? She’s always sent to do his bidding when things got tricky with the Brobergs.

Edited October 9, 2022 by SnazzyDaisy

[methodwriter85]

4 hours ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

Wait! Jan was not sexually assaulted during the 1st kidnap?

ETA: No penetration but the Brobergs were in denial re other forms of sexual abuse.

The show has decided against showing any of the actual abuse but basically, when you see Jan pass out, that's when she's getting sexually assaulted by B.

It's kind of like the disco Luke and Laura rape scene on General Hospital- Genie Francis was 17 when they filmed it, and they decided against anything explicit. So she's pulled down to the floor and then when you see the disco lights strobing, that's when she's being raped.

Edited October 9, 2022 by methodwriter85

[Armchair Critic]

50 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

The show has decided against showing any of the actual abuse but basically, when you see Jan pass out, that's when she's getting sexually assaulted by B.

Besides Mexico, when Jan went on the trip (to Seattle?) with B's family and was tired at dinner he brought her back to the hotel room alone. Another time Jan fell asleep (on the trampoline?) and said when she woke up her skirt was messed up so I thought that was also alluding to it.

The actors are doing a great job. I want to tell Jan's parents to stop being so damn polite. They and B's wife are a bundle of nerves.

Jan is so chirpy she would have got on my nerves if I was alone with her for weeks on a trip, I would have given her the "allergy medicine" just to have some peace (KIDDING!). 

Edited October 9, 2022 by Armchair Critic

[Snazzy Daisy]

1 hour ago, methodwriter85 said:

The show has decided against showing any of the actual abuse but basically, when you see Jan pass out, that's when she's getting sexually assaulted by B.

That’s why am having a hard time to believe what the doctor said.

The allergy pills cause drowsiness, not like drug-induced pass out. So Jan must’ve felt something during or after, right? 

Edited October 9, 2022 by SnazzyDaisy

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

B is truly a POS and his wife is right behind him. 

I feel like his wife must know what's going on, right? I sympathize with her somewhat but her letting this happen is so fucked up.

It seemed like the allergy pills that were tested were ones that were in the Broberg house so I'm assuming B gave them some regular pills to keep there just to further hide that he was emptying and replacing the ones he gave Jan.

[Scarlett45]

6 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I feel like his wife must know what's going on, right? I sympathize with her somewhat but her letting this happen is so fucked up.

It seemed like the allergy pills that were tested were ones that were in the Broberg house so I'm assuming B gave them some regular pills to keep there just to further hide that he was emptying and replacing the ones he gave Jan.

Of course his wife knows, or strongly suspects. She doesn’t care what’s happened to Jan, only her life and her status. 

14 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

The show has decided against showing any of the actual abuse but basically, when you see Jan pass out, that's when she's getting sexually assaulted by B.

It's kind of like the disco Luke and Laura rape scene on General Hospital- Genie Francis was 17 when they filmed it, and they decided against anything explicit. So she's pulled down to the floor and then when you see the disco lights strobing, that's when she's being raped.

I think they are handling that well. For the child actors and this is Jan’s story, I can understand why she doesn’t want that shown. Also no need to trigger people with explicit images to tell the story. 

[Cinnabon]

On 10/8/2022 at 10:01 PM, SnazzyDaisy said:

Wait! Jan was not sexually assaulted during the 1st kidnap?

ETA: No penetration but the Brobergs were in denial re other forms of sexual abuse.

And the pills were purely antihistamines? 😳

I don’t believe Bob and Mary Ann were that naive. Sorry.

Re Gail Berchtold, why is this show trying to portray her as some sort of enabler or accomplice to B? Her true character or pure dramatization? She’s always sent to do his bidding when things got tricky with the Brobergs.

Yes, the doctor said her hymen was intact, so no vaginal penetration.

[Snazzy Daisy]

3 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Yes, the doctor said her hymen was intact, so no vaginal penetration.

It’s weird, isn’t it?

For such a determined predator, why wait? 🤔 

[Scarlett45]

On 10/10/2022 at 1:29 AM, SnazzyDaisy said:

It’s weird, isn’t it?

For such a determined predator, why wait? 🤔 

Not all predators are focused on vaginal penile intercourse, or vaginal penetration. Look at a modern example of Larry Nassar, intercourse wasnt his "thing" but he abused so many kids.

One thing I can think that was "of the times" was that if vaginal penile intercourse didn't happen, what happened to the girl wasn't "too bad" and since there was no possible pregnancy, she was able to move on more easily. And her "reputation" wasn't ruined. The dr was concerned about her still being "pure". Not that I think the Dr did care about her, but he was concerned about her hymen, and physical scars not her mental state.

B is such a twisted POS, I think he got off on the mental manipulation of this girl (and her family). The entire kidnapping and the "mission" etc, I don't think it was just about easy access to her or sexual gratification, he wanted to OWN HER and her DEVOTION- hence he told her not to have ANY contact with another human man. UGH I hate him. (Jake Lacey is going a great job)

[Snazzy Daisy]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

The entire kidnapping and the "mission" etc, I don't think it was just about easy access to her or sexual gratification, he wanted to OWN HER and her DEVOTION- hence he told her not to have ANY contact with another human man. 

The alien narrative is weird to me. Did he ever explain why he chose to go with that?

I never follow this case before. Started to read about it because of this show. Never watch the documentary either.

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Jake Lacey is going a great job.

Jake Lacy has a punchable face. It really helps...

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

The alien narrative is weird to me. Did he ever explain why he chose to go with that?

I never follow this case before. Started to read about it because of this show. Never watch the documentary either.

I mentioned that in another episode thread. The themes in the alien narrative are very similar to themes in the origin of the LDS faith (Joseph Smith being spoken to by god, how the faith views angels and the after life on other planets etc). It was something that could emotionally resonate with Jan and he would find it easier to manipulate her the way many of predators use religion to prey on people.

[chocolatine]

On 10/8/2022 at 7:01 PM, SnazzyDaisy said:

Re Gail Berchtold, why is this show trying to portray her as some sort of enabler or accomplice to B? Her true character or pure dramatization? She’s always sent to do his bidding when things got tricky with the Brobergs.

In the first couple of episodes I couldn't decide whether Gail was actively enabling B, kind of like Ghislaine Maxwell did for Jeffrey Epstein, or whether she was extremely overwhelmed, possibly depressed, and in deep denial. But when she coldly told Bob about the lawyer she's hired and threatened to expose his sexual encounter with B, I had my answer.

[Scarlett45]

Reminder: episode threads are to discuss THE EPISODE, previous episodes may be referenced, but no spoilers, or "real time" discussion. Not everyone who watches will be spoiled or have any knowledge of real life events. Posts have been moved and private messages have been sent, but future infractions may result in warnings. 

[Cinnabon]

19 hours ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

It’s weird, isn’t it?

For such a determined predator, why wait? 🤔 

I think she was just too tiny.. . 😳 

[Armchair Critic]

I was raised to always "smile and be polite"...when I got into the "real world" (public college, a job) I got taken advantage of a few times and then learned to toughen up. "B" plays on that, people like the Brobergs and others from their religion are not used to fellow church members acting outside society norms and they don't know how to respond. Smiling and being polite doesn't work on B (or his wife). Being polite doesn't work because "B" will steamroll over them because they are afraid to be rude and say no.

[EdnasEdibles]

9 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

I was raised to always "smile and be polite"...when I got into the "real world" (public college, a job) I got taken advantage of a few times and then learned to toughen up. "B" plays on that, people like the Brobergs and others from their religion are not used to fellow church members acting outside society norms and they don't know how to respond. Smiling and being polite doesn't work on B (or his wife). Being polite doesn't work because "B" will steamroll over them because they are afraid to be rude and say no.

I think the dad is the perfect example of this. He got wrapped up in it but at least you can see his mind working in the show about how he's onto B at a certain point and hates him. But the mom. Good god! What on earth is this woman thinking!? I realize this is the first time in her life that she's probably felt lust before - or felt lusted after - but this man kidnapped your daughter and married her! WTF?!

[Scarlett45]

4 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I think the dad is the perfect example of this. He got wrapped up in it but at least you can see his mind working in the show about how he's onto B at a certain point and hates him. But the mom. Good god! What on earth is this woman thinking!? I realize this is the first time in her life that she's probably felt lust before - or felt lusted after - but this man kidnapped your daughter and married her! WTF?!

I agree. I also think Colin Hanks is doing a great job showing the nuances of Bob, why he made the decisions he did, and we see him trying to make things right. 
 

Anna Pacquin is a great actress, so I think we will get more info on what the mom is thinking shortly. I highly doubt we will agree, but Anna can bring it no matter how odd it is. 

[AntFTW]

I can't imagine that the Brobergs are that naive.

[peeayebee]

I've watched about 3 1/2 episodes then bailed at this one when Gail was talking to Bob in the front yard. The moment she said, "You're going to want to hear this," I knew what was coming. 

I bailed because B's manipulating and getting away with it is too creepy and upsetting to me. In the past I would continue to watch such programs, but maybe in my somewhat old age I've just had enuf yucky stuff.

I can't remember if it was this ep or the previous one, but when B was getting Bob to confess what happened in his childhood, I was literally saying from the couch, "Don't tell him." And then he didn't hear me when I later said not to jerk B off. 

As others have said, Jake Lacy is really good in this. B is a master manipulator and can home in on other people's vulnerabilities. It's understandable how Bob and Mary Ann were so trusting of him.

I read a brief article about the real story because I was curious about the whole case. I'll continue to read this forum as well.

I was puzzled when the doctor said Jan's hymen was intact. As I said, I didn't watch this entire ep, and I don't know what's coming up, but I was wondering if the doctor was a Mormon as well and was covering up the abuse. Maybe I've just been influenced by Under the Banner of Heaven.

[gesundheit]

So disturbing.

I'm struggling with Mary Ann, though. Anna Paquin does not seem like she's playing an actual person, just some sort of wind-up doll with either a blank face or a worried face, it's very artificial and one-dimensional. I'm really craving more of a perspective there and there just isn't one. I'm finding I wish Tipton and Paquin had been cast in each other's roles. Everyone else's acting is very believable, though, especially Jake Lacy. It's so funny that he's made a career of such extremes -- he seems to always be an absolute (charming) entitled creep, or the really genuinely nice dude who's never really been noticed or appreciated.

[Scarlett45]

11 hours ago, gesundheit said:

I'm struggling with Mary Ann, though. Anna Paquin does not seem like she's playing an actual person, just some sort of wind-up doll with either a blank face or a worried face, it's very artificial and one-dimensional. I'm really craving more of a perspective there and there just isn't one. I'm finding I wish Tipton and Paquin had been cast in each other's roles.

(Bolding mine) I actually thought of that and it would’ve been REALLY interesting to watch. 

[Cosmocrush]

On 10/10/2022 at 8:43 AM, SnazzyDaisy said:

The alien narrative is weird to me. Did he ever explain why he chose to go with that?

I thought it was because earlier they talked about how Jan was obsessed with UFO stories.

[Snazzy Daisy]

26 minutes ago, Cosmocrush said:

I thought it was because earlier they talked about how Jan was obsessed with UFO stories.

Really? I must’ve missed that part…

[peachmangosteen]

I don't remember that either. I do remember though in the first ep when B had his wife tell her story about encountering a UFO and then he asked Jan if she'd ever experienced something like that with that creepy ass smile on his face.

[Cosmocrush]

3 hours ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

Really? I must’ve missed that part…

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I don't remember that either. I do remember though in the first ep when B had his wife tell her story about encountering a UFO and then he asked Jan if she'd ever experienced something like that with that creepy ass smile on his face.

And then there was a line from Dad Bob about how he wished she wasn't so fascinated with all the UFO stuff.  Also, a scene where Jan pointed to a newspaper story about a woman and UFO and remarked how cool it was.  I'm sorry I don't remember the exact episode(s) but it was early. 

[peeayebee]

I thought Jan's fascination with UFOs was simply because of the story Gail told and B's interest in it as well. Also, I thought it was weird when B told Gail to tell the story that she seemed reluctant at first. I've gotten the impression that Gail knows about her husband's pedophilia, and I've wondered if she knew how he uses the UFO story with his targets. (I don't know what happens later in the storyline.)

[Cosmocrush]

4 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I thought Jan's fascination with UFOs was simply because of the story Gail told and B's interest in it as well. Also, I thought it was weird when B told Gail to tell the story that she seemed reluctant at first. I've gotten the impression that Gail knows about her husband's pedophilia, and I've wondered if she knew how he uses the UFO story with his targets. (I don't know what happens later in the storyline.)

Oh I think Gail definitely knows or at least suspects her husband's predator status and she feels trapped economically in this 1950's marriage so lives in denial - while probably keeping their daughter close.   But the UFO story was probably organic and I chalked her reluctance up to the reluctance anyone would probably have to share such a bizarre story. 

[Glade]

Wow, that ending "I'm so in love with you that I hooked up with your husband and then kidnapped and molested your daughter...but it was all to get closer to you!" is beyond the pale.   Mary Anne is just being portrayed as so one dimensional, at least Bob is struggling against the current a bit.  But the story is beyond infuriating.

[Cosmocrush]

8 hours ago, Glade said:

Wow, that ending "I'm so in love with you that I hooked up with your husband and then kidnapped and molested your daughter...but it was all to get closer to you!" is beyond the pale.   Mary Anne is just being portrayed as so one dimensional, at least Bob is struggling against the current a bit.  But the story is beyond infuriating.

I just watched the Netflix doc on this story (Abducted in Plain Sight) and unfortunately, the portrayal of Mary Anne here isn't that far off. 

[pasdetrois]

On 10/9/2022 at 4:14 PM, Scarlett45 said:

Also no need to trigger people with explicit images to tell the story. 

Or titillate the sick creeps who watch and enjoy the images.

[pasdetrois]

On 10/10/2022 at 2:29 AM, SnazzyDaisy said:

For such a determined predator, why wait?

It was the brilliance of his psychopathy. I think he knew that if he did everything but penetrate, excuses would be made. After all, when this story happened, we weren't too far removed from a time when young brides were a routine thing. In the 70s my cousin was 15 when she married a 16-year-old, with both parents' permission. (A baby was on the way.)  Jerry Lee Lewis (RIP) married a 14-year-old, with her parents' permission. Also, a friend from a different culture than mine said that anal sex is used by teenagers so that the girl can say she is a virgin when she marries. The LDS did not necessarily frown upon very young brides. The church and its community would look for a way to make excuses.

Quote

On 10/10/2022 at 11:43 AM, SnazzyDaisy said:

The alien narrative is weird to me. Did he ever explain why he chose to go with that?

In a bizarre coincidence, I am remembering a kind of urban legend that swept my middle school during the time Jan's story happened. It was said that aliens were going to land, kidnap teenage girls, and take them back to their planets for breeding. I kid not. Clusters of teenage girls were obsessed with this rumor for weeks and discussed it non-stop. Half kind of believed it and were kind of excited it was going to happen. Alien boyfriends!

Edited November 7, 2022 by pasdetrois

[Snazzy Daisy]

9 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

It was the brilliance of his psychopathy. I think he knew that if he did everything but penetrate, excuses would be made.

I wonder if Jan ever noticed changes on her body after she wakes up around B - redness, bruises, feeling sore etc.

I watched too much SVU I guess. 😣

10 hours ago, pasdetrois said:

Half kind of believed it and were kind of excited it was going to happen. Alien boyfriends!

For real??! Why would they want reptilian boyfriends, weird. 😳

[Shermie]

16 hours ago, SnazzyDaisy said:

On 11/7/2022 at 8:21 AM, pasdetrois said:

Half kind of believed it and were kind of excited it was going to happen. Alien boyfriends!

For real??! Why would they want reptilian boyfriends, weird. 😳

You assume aliens are reptilian? Maybe they’re the soft ethereal glowing creatures from Close Encounters. 😁

Watching this makes my skin crawl - Jake Lacy’s smarminess, the parents complete stupidity, Jan’s naïveté. If it wasn’t a true story, I’d never believe it. Although I watch/listen to enough true crime to know that the world is full is unbelievably stupid people and the predators who prey on them.

And yeah, the main concern is that Jan’s hymen was intact so that she’s still pure for her future husband. Ugh. The good old days, huh.

I do like the music, since it’s completely from my formative years.

[Miss Bones]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:24 PM, gesundheit said:

So disturbing.

I'm struggling with Mary Ann, though. Anna Paquin does not seem like she's playing an actual person, just some sort of wind-up doll with either a blank face or a worried face, it's very artificial and one-dimensional. I'm really craving more of a perspective there and there just isn't one. I'm finding I wish Tipton and Paquin had been cast in each other's roles. Everyone else's acting is very believable, though, especially Jake Lacy. It's so funny that he's made a career of such extremes -- he seems to always be an absolute (charming) entitled creep, or the really genuinely nice dude who's never really been noticed or appreciated.

After watching the Netflix doc "Abducted in Plain Sight", I think Anna's performance is SPOT ON!  Mary Ann was much older in the documentary than the years that she is being portrayed in this series, but I almost see her exact facial expressions, with the way that Anna is acting it.  And yes, it is unbelievable a person can be so dumb.