S06.E11: Breaking Bad

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Rickster said:

I wonder if part of the the issue with the last two episodes is the black and white photography. I understand “artistically” why they’re doing it, and it worked for the brief flash forwards earlier in the series, but here, it’s not connecting me to the story anymore. And it seems murkily shot for the most part, at least in the indoor and night scenes. I’d prefer to be watching this in color.

I like the black and white. It fits with Gene's dull and faded life. All the joy in his life is gone. He's not even getting joy from his scams. The scams are a drug he has to take but all the thrill and joy he used to get from them is gone. 

BB and BCS used color as a hint to what was going on. The total lack of color is sending a message that Gene's life is now hopeless. 

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

How the heck did Gene have Kim's contact information?

Maybe she’s lived in Florida for a while and that’s where he sent his divorce papers? I’m assuming they’re now divorced but who knows?

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

I don’t see how Danny could be Wormald. That dude was just plain stupid. “Bone dumb” as the country boys would say. A clear case of Darwinism waiting to remove him from the reproductive ‘12 items or less’ aisle.

I see Danny as being a shifty, low profile, street-wise East Coast transfer used to scams, tax evasion, money laundering, but on a small (er) scale.

The Squat Cobbler would be eaten up quickly by either bad guys or the cops.

He was, however, one of the best sources of laughter on the show. The actor played him beautifully.

Thank you very much. I had a hunch, but that’s the limit of my intellect.

The writer said that IS the “Danny” he had in mind. Maybe his lack of smarts is what led to the Laser Tag place going down quickly.

[Lalo Lives]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

The writer said that IS the “Danny” he had in mind. Maybe his lack of smarts is what led to the Laser Tag place going down quickly.

I saw that. Tom is wrong. I’ve got to give him a call and straighten this out.

[Cinnabon]

3 hours ago, Lalo Lives said:

Yeah, the computer thing is bad news for Gene potentially.

I don’t remember the efficacy of web searches back then, but the criminal history of an individual these days is literally seconds away.

If you knew what you were doing, in some ways researching people was easier in those days. You could do searches without a paying for them. And there were some search platforms that have since been made illegal because they gave away too much personal information (there was one in particular i remember -  Zabasearch?) Whether Marion will be able to get from searching for cat videos to digging up Gene’s background is debatable.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Cinnabon

[scenario]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Maybe she’s lived in Florida for a while and that’s where he sent his divorce papers? I’m assuming they’re now divorced but who knows?

Kim's not hiding. She can live under her own name because she was never caught for what she did. He could have got the address from the internet or from court papers. Her number wouldn't be that difficult to find. He never called it because she made it clear that she didn't want to see him again. She still loved him but they were toxic for each other and would destroy each other. He understood that and did his best to let her go.

When he found out his money was all gone, he was crushed. Calling her was grasping at straws. I doubt he talked to her. He didn't have her home number because it was unlisted for good reasons. I'm sure a lot of people would just love to harass the ex-wife of Saul Goodman. He called the only number he had for her. Either she quit the job and moved or she wasn't there and he lost it. 

[Cinnabon]

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I wonder if the people who don't like them are just not interested in "Gene" and want to see more of "Saul" and Mike as they merge into the Breaking Bad universe.  Was th

Exactly this. The BB era is being largely skipped here because we’ve seen that - we know who Saul was during those years. The writers want to finish the story, the character development of Jimmy/Saul/Gene and that means telling Gene’s story. I do think some of the viewers just don’t care about that character development and want cartel and meth lab action. That’s not what this show is ultimately about.

2 hours ago, SnarkAttack said:

Gene gets arrested and Kim comes to the rescue.

I don’t think there’s a chance in hell of that happening. Kim knows enough now about what Jimmy/Saul was up to during the BB years and probably knows she made the right decision in leaving for a quiet life. 

[Scout Finch]

Tears of joy and a huge smile on my face! I miss Breaking Bad so much. The neighbors around the complex may or may not have heard me through the open window: "OMG! WALT! JESSE!"

They were supposed to be in Episode 10 but it was worth waiting another week for. All it took for me was the initial shot of the RV keys and the barrel of methylamine to know where he was.

That shot of the grave dissolving into the bed was amazing. Coincidentally, after not hearing it for years, last week I heard Madonna's "Don't Tell Me," which has the line: "Tell the bed not to lay, like the mouth of an open grave."
 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Scout Finch

[Penman61]

What's the timespan between Kim & Jimmy breaking up and this ep's phone call?

We know we're in November 2010 when this call happens. Did we establish that the break-up was in 2005 or...?

I'm still not convinced that Gene actually spoke with Kim during that phone call, but I also can't imagine why he'd get that angry at a receptionist or whoever was telling him he couldn't talk to Kim. Going to rewatch that scene...

OK, back from rewatching Gene's call to Kim scene. No breakthroughs, but I did notice this time that the part of the call that we didn't hear was very short, which could support that it wasn't Kim but someone telling Gene she wouldn't talk to him; but it also could be Kim telling Gene shortly "I said no contact" and then hanging up on him.

Also, Gene is enraged at the end. Have we seen him act out like this in frustrated rage? He repeatedly slams the receiver, and eventually kicks out the glass in the booth. 

What happened in that call to make him, not hurt, but so enraged?

I'm going to go with Kim told the receptionist to tell Gene she's won't take his call, now or ever.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Penman61

[Cinnabon]

21 minutes ago, Lalo Lives said:

I saw that. Tom is wrong. I’ve got to give him a call and straighten this out.

Maybe send him your own improved fanfic version of the screenplay? 🤣

[Ed-]

18 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Whether Marion will be able to get from searching for cat videos to digging up Gene’s background is debatable.

I didn't think about that at first, but is it possible Marion stumbles upon one of Saul's ads first? "Hey, come check this out. This guy looks just like you, without the mustache!" -- "Well, what do you know? He kind of looks like me!" or "You got me!". Technically though, the show has had a heavy emphasis on VHS tapes and such from this period, so not sure if it makes sense that some of them got digitized and went viral or something.

[ShadowFacts]

6 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

What's the timespan between Kim & Jimmy breaking up and this ep's phone call?

We know we're in November 2010 when this call happens. Did we establish that the break-up was in 2005 or...?

I'm still not convinced that Gene actually spoke with Kim during that phone call, but I also can't imagine why he'd get that angry at a receptionist or whoever was telling him he couldn't talk to Kim. Going to rewatch that scene...

OK, back from rewatching Gene's call to Kim scene. No breakthroughs, but I did notice that the call was very short, which could support that it wasn't Kim but someone telling Gene she wouldn't talk to him; but it also could be Kim telling Gene shortly "I said no contact" and then hanging up on him.

Also, Gene is enraged at the end. Have we seen him act out like this in frustrated rage? He repeatedly slams the receiver, and eventually kicks out the glass in the booth. 

What happened in that call to make him, not hurt, but so enraged?

I'm going to go with Kim told the receptionist to tell Gene she's won't take his call, now or ever.

He went too ballistic in that scene. My spin is he was frustrated in his call attempt and angry at his whole situation and mostly at the fact that Kim is and always will be out of reach.

[Cinnabon]

4 minutes ago, Ed- said:

I didn't think about that at first, but is it possible Marion stumbles upon one of Saul's ads first? "Hey, come check this out. This guy looks just like you, without the mustache!" -- "Well, what do you know? He kind of looks like me!" or "You got me!". Technically though, the show has had a heavy emphasis on VHS tapes and such from this period, so not sure if it makes sense that some of them got digitized and went viral or something.

Could be. It’s a stretch from being able to search for cat videos to being able to do background searches, but maybe she’ll surprise us.

[tennisgurl]

Everything about Gene is just so depressing, he's the worst of both Jimmy and Saul without any of their more redeemable qualities. He doesn't have the sleazy charm of Saul or the decency of Jimmy, but he's doubled down on Saul's lack of morals and Jimmy's lack of impulse control, he's just some asshole who does assholes things because he has no idea what else to do. He's running crappy low level cons that even his sketchy associates think are crossing a line, cons that seems easy to fall apart, for not a whole lot of pay out. He's just a miserable person spreading misery around because he has no other way to deal with how sorry his life has become. I don't even think he cares that much about being caught anymore, he's already stuck in this miserable purgatory where he threw away his lives as Jimmy and as Saul, and he knows that its all his own doing. Now he's just the kind of guy who scams dying men for a cheap pay out just because he can, no flair or even attempts at justifying himself. 

Come on, give us what is happening with Kim! I am guessing that he never got a chance to talk to her and that's why he was so pissed off. 

I liked the symmetry of this episode being called Breaking Bad, the shows first appearance of Walter and Jessie, while the episode where Saul was introduced back in Breaking Bad was called Better Call Saul. Walter and Jessie didn't really have a ton to do, and given the shows prequel nature that was inevitable, but it was still cool to see them back when it all started.

Edited August 2, 2022 by tennisgurl

[scenario]

15 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

What's the timespan between Kim & Jimmy breaking up and this ep's phone call?

We know we're in November 2010 when this call happens. Did we establish that the break-up was in 2005 or...?

I'm still not convinced that Gene actually spoke with Kim during that phone call, but I also can't imagine why he'd get that angry at a receptionist or whoever was telling him he couldn't talk to Kim. Going to rewatch that scene...

OK, back from rewatching Gene's call to Kim scene. No breakthroughs, but I did notice this time that the part of the call that we didn't hear was very short, which could support that it wasn't Kim but someone telling Gene she wouldn't talk to him; but it also could be Kim telling Gene shortly "I said no contact" and then hanging up on him.

Also, Gene is enraged at the end. Have we seen him act out like this in frustrated rage? He repeatedly slams the receiver, and eventually kicks out the glass in the booth. 

What happened in that call to make him, not hurt, but so enraged?

I'm going to go with Kim told the receptionist to tell Gene she's won't take his call, now or ever.

He just found out that the money he had been pinning all his hopes on was gone. His call to Kim was out of desperation. His dreams of getting out of his dreary life were shattered. It wouldn't have taken much to drive him into a rage. 

[Penman61]

2 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Come on, give us what is happening with Kim! I am guessing that he never got a chance to talk to her and that's why he was so pissed off. 

Hear, hear. I really think we need to see whether Kim, unlike Jimmy, was able to stay clean. Would be interesting for Jimmy to know that, too. 

[Chaos Theory]

I don’t think Kim is dead.  That would be too cruel a fate even for this show at this point in time.    We know she contacted Francesca so she is alive.    My guess is that Jimmy called her asking to talk to her and he either ran out of coins or found out she was married with children and happy in Florida.   That his fantasy of them ending up together in the end was just not going to happen.    

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t think Kim is dead.  That would be too cruel a fate even for this show at this point in time.    We know she contacted Francesca so she is alive.    My guess is that Jimmy called her asking to talk to her and he either ran out of coins or found out she was married with children and happy in Florida.   That his fantasy of them ending up together in the end was just not going to happen.    

Maybe he found out she's in prison. She left him to escape her addiction to the con but it was all in vain. She fell anyway. If she was going to break bad anyway they could have done it together. 

[Sailorgirl26]

1 hour ago, scenario said:

The total lack of color is sending a message that Gene's life is now hopeless. 

I could not love this observation more. 

[sistermagpie]

10 hours ago, Constantinople said:

The reason that I didn't like not hearing Jimmy's conversation with Kim, or whomever, is I think it's arbitrary and inconsistent with previous episodes of BCS/BB.

I'm struggling to think of a single time in BCS/BB where a phone conversation takes place, but we don't hear either side. Sometimes we hear one side, sometimes both, but I can't think of any other time when we heard neither. So it feels like a cheat when we hear both sides of the Saul-Francesca conversation, but neither side of the Saul-Kim/Whoever conversation.

This just seems odd to me. The fact that the show never had a reason before to give us one end of a conversation doesn't mean they've promised to give us every conversation with both sides. They obviously had a reason to not let us in on this one that's anything but arbitrary.

7 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

This is where the black and white of Gene's world comes into its own.  Everything feels so claustrophobic and oppressive and Gene feels more sinister than ever as the spider in the web but without any of the flair or humour that made Saul at least fun to watch.

I feel like if Gene ends up dead it will at least be in color for him.

7 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

Mike's scene was good but I think it's a shame his storyline has been sidelined to this degree.  Admittedly, the meeting with Manuel is kind of a perfect bookend for him.  Nacho's father had the same moral clarity his son had and held a mirror up to who Mike has become -- perhaps who he always was.  However, he's been such a strong part of the show and it's sad that he seems to be pretty much done, though I expect/hope to get some wrap-up on Kayleigh before we're through.

4 hours ago, Lonesome Rhodes said:

How the heck did Gene have Kim's contact information?

Why would it be hard? He knew she was living in Florida and where she was working, since she's living a normal life. Here he just called information for the company number.

2 hours ago, Sailorgirl26 said:

For those who are saying we should have gotten "closure" on Mike -- we did -- in Breaking Bad. Remember, BCS is a prequel. They moved Mike's story along until it meshed with Breaking Bad. Any closure on Kaylie we got in Breaking Bad when Mike left her a safety deposit box of cash but it got raided. 

Yes, this always surprises me. Mike's story is totally complete both in BBS and in BB.

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

My original point is that Breaking Bad the episode obviates the need for Nippy. I think this observation supports that.

• Fun and Games (E9): Kim leaves Jimmy
• Fun and Games (E9): Jimmy bangs hookers in his house in Albuquerque
• Breaking Bad (E11): Kim isn't available again to Jimmy in some way
• Breaking Bad (E11): Jimmy bangs hookers in his house in Omaha

Note that Nippy isn't in this list.

More generally you can go straight from Fun and Games to Breaking Bad and hardly miss a beat. All you need is those few quick scenes introducing Marion and Jimmy telling Jeff he wants in the game.

You miss the beat where Gene turns from the dead to the world guy Walt (also with a moustache) was at the start of BB into a guy who has something that makes him feel alive via deciding to stay and fight the punk who's threatening him. That's the excuse for the con that gives him his power back and leads him to try to call Kim again.

[WritinMan]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I actually found both Nippy and Breaking Bad to be incredibly brilliant episodes.

Completely agree. I've read--and re-read--some of the complaints of the last two episodes and I honestly have no idea what some people here are on about. This is one of the best TV shows ever and it's going out very well so far.

[Lalo Lives]

36 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Maybe send him your own improved fanfic version of the screenplay? 🤣

Well, he borrowed my lawnmower.

And an axe, 90 sq yards of plastic sheeting, 5 gallons of Clorox, an air freshener, and my backhoe. Don’t know what for. Anyhow, I need all that stuff back.

But in reality 2 things: my fanfic would be really bad, and, now that I think about it, having Creampie Guy as Saul’s ‘Danny’ makes sense. He’s dumb as a hamster but, more importantly, easy to manipulate. Especially for a guy like Saul.

[CynicalGirl]

13 hours ago, bad things are bad said:

Had to look up that song playing while Gene was running his cons, I was pretty sure it was Mike Nesmith. Someone likes the Monkees! 

13 hours ago, CynicalGirl said:

Tapioca Tundra!

But a different version than the Monkees', which was faster paced. I liked this one, and couldn't help but think Mike would have loved that his song was on BCS.

[Scout Finch]

Unpopular opinion but I never cared for Kim so I'm fine not seeing her again. 

It's quite plausible that Marion could be Gene's downfall. Not for nothing did she witness the garage coming and goings and also, since she's originally from ABQ she's kept thinking she's heard his voice before (from all the TV ads). It's one of the those very common things that drives you nuts: "I could swear I know that person from somewhere." She finally remembers, pulls up an old commercial, and compares the faces. Perhaps it's not just that she loves the show and was happy to play any tertiary character, but Carol Burnette knew she would get to be the one who ultimately takes him down. 

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, jww said:

Putting tape over the door frame only works on the door knob/spring locks not on a dead bolt.  You cannot lock a deadbolt from outside without a key. You can open a spring lock with a credit cart/driver's license.   Where did Gene get all of his information on these wealthy Omahians? All of them lived alone with  no alarm system or dogs?  They all went to the same bar and got s----faced drunk on a regular basis while taking to a stranger?

And that all there financial docs were right there in the house (instead of an office) where this obvious doofus could easily/quickly find them...

[Cinnabon]

32 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t think Kim is dead.  That would be too cruel a fate even for this show at this point in time.    We know she contacted Francesca so she is alive.    My guess is that Jimmy called her asking to talk to her and he either ran out of coins or found out she was married with children and happy in Florida.   That his fantasy of them ending up together in the end was just not going to happen.    

He obviously didn’t know her at all if he thought she would be with him after all he did in BB.

9 minutes ago, Scout Finch said:

Unpopular opinion but I never cared for Kim so I'm fine not seeing her again. 

It's quite plausible that Marion could be Gene's downfall. Not for nothing did she witness the garage coming and goings and also, since she's originally from ABQ she's kept thinking she's heard his voice before (from all the TV ads). It's one of the those very common things that drives you nuts: "I could swear I know that person from somewhere." She finally remembers, pulls up an old commercial, and compares the faces. Perhaps it's not just that she loves the show and was happy to play any tertiary character, but Carol Burnette knew she would get to be the one who ultimately takes him down. 

She’s originally from ABQ? I missed that.

[Cinnabon]

9 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

And that all there financial docs were right there in the house (instead of an office) where this obvious doofus could easily/quickly find them...

And usernames/passwords. 

[SimplexFish]

13 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

cause he got her in trouble with The Law.

Thanks for an actual answer and not some a-hole response. (Not every one on this forum is a BCS/BB "lifer" LOL

[Penman61]

21 minutes ago, Scout Finch said:

Unpopular opinion but I never cared for Kim so I'm fine not seeing her again. 

Fair enough, but I'm basing my wish on how central a character Kim has been to BCS. 

I think this did they/didn't they? phone call is NOT an ending to the story of #2 character in this series.

I suppose we could infer that because Kim has a normal job, she hasn't gone off the deep end like Gene has now, but that would be an iffy inference in this world: After all, Gene is still a Cinnabon manager while he commits crimes against cancer victims. 

We deserve to know! #TellKimsStory

Edited August 2, 2022 by Penman61

[sistermagpie]

Just occurred to me after I was thinking about how Gene has a mustache (just as Saul criticized Walt for having in BB when he, too, was the walking dead) was that when the mark who had cancer told him you only live once, he was making the same choice as Walt. His life as Gene was like a living death, so he no longer saw any reason to play it safe with the con. He's like the cancer guy getting drunk even if it makes his meds not work.

[gallimaufry]

2 hours ago, Penman61 said:

I don't disagree but would just add that the early seasons of BCS showed us that Chuck's treatment of Jimmy was a key catalyst in his reversion to Slippin' Jimmy/Saul. 

The beauty of this show, in my opinion, is that it leaves us with this accurate representation of how complex our motives are: Did Chuck make Jimmy slip again? Well, no, Jimmy had agency, free will, etc. But, boy, Chuck didn't help.

Maybe Chuck didn't hand Jimmy that machine gun, but he sure made Jimmy's trigger finger itch...

I agree - it's nice to think that there are different choices Chuck and others could have made to keep Jimmy on the right path.  He definitely had periods, long periods, where he didn't slip and certainly Chuck's final message to Jimmy was so deeply damaging. 

1 hour ago, Rickster said:

I wonder if part of the the issue with the last two episodes is the black and white photography. I understand “artistically” why they’re doing it, and it worked for the brief flash forwards earlier in the series, but here, it’s not connecting me to the story anymore. And it seems murkily shot for the most part, at least in the indoor and night scenes. I’d prefer to be watching this in color.

Yeah, as much as I love the B&W, it does feel a little oppressive.  I mean, it's meant to be oppressive but it's a lot.

Bar the odd cameo, the show has almost completely lost Mike and Kim, its two co-leads.  It has completely been rid of Nacho and Gus and the cartel.  It's left behind Howard and the world of the law except for a quick glimpse of Oakley.  Chuck is hardly mentioned.  The sets are completely different: Kim's place is gone.  The time period is different - the concerns of up to 609 are six years ago and with a LOT of water under the bridge. 

And fundamentally, the show has lost Jimmy too.  The Jimmy of 611 is not the Jimmy of 608.  He doesn't look the same, his experiences are different, he's just a different character.  And then you add to all this that the colour has gone?  It's a lot.  It's a tough watch.  

So I think one of the reasons the show is getting some negative reactions is that it is in almost every respect a new show and that's a hard thing in the final stretch.  And although I love watching this show week to week, I actually suspect this one will play a lot better binged where this coda section isn't taking place over weeks.

Another interview with Tom Schnauz addresses another query I had:

Something we talked about is that when he’s really, really, full Saul Goodman is the point when he decides it’s OK to kill somebody. In my first episode of Breaking Bad, “One Minute,” they talk about what to do with Jesse, and he says there are “options.” That’s a much different character from Jimmy and from early Saul. There were some steps that happened that got him to that point that we’re not seeing. We did talk about whether we should portray those: “Should we see a moment where he feels like somebody needs to die?” We talked about there being a situation where there’s some case — I think they did this on The Good Wife — where Saul is saying something to Mike, “Well, if this guy is gone, it would be really helpful,” and Mike is saying, “You want this to happen?” It was one of those scenes we pitched but didn’t do.

I do think it's a pity that they skipped this although I like what they call the 2001 cut and I can see why it appealed to them.  I'm not sure they had time to gear Saul up into murder mode from where they were.  (I always assumed it was leading to some inversion of the scene from 102 where it would be more convenient for Saul just to let them die - perhaps two disposable characters like the nitwits from 502).

One strange thing given the show's title and given that they initially thought he'd be Saul by the end of S1 is that the show has hardly given us any true Saul scenes.  There have been the first scene of 406, the last sequence of 509 and a handful of flashbacks in 511.  That's it!  It would indeed have been odd to do a substantial run of the show with Saul and without Kim, Nacho, Howard or any great involvement from Gus or Mike whose stories were more or less wrapped but I do feel a little short-changed.  The best Saul scams had a wild, frenetic energy that I don't think we've really seen this season - I remember Saul buying Jesse's house ("how about it, Counsellor?  Do you concur?") and facing off with Kevin in 506 (who I agree, I really liked - although the magic of the scene was that Saul was so incredible that you ended up kind of rooting for him anyway).  

I think there's a version of this show that spends several episodes acclimatising Saul to his new role, showing how Ericssen tries and fails to build a case against him, showing how he acquires the vet's book, showing how he launches the slogan "Better Call Saul" and takes his office downmarket and how he takes on the likes of Rich and Cliff and Steph and Oakley and, heck, Paige in court and wins.  Oh, and as I've discussed on another thread, doing right by the character of Gus.  The trouble is, I wouldn't trade it for anything we've got and the show had already, much as I love it, passed the point where it needed to end if only because the actors' ageing is making the prequel status impossible to maintain.  But man, it would have been good.

[Scout Finch]

51 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

She’s originally from ABQ? I missed that.

Her son, Jeff, had an ABQ air freshener in his cab which freaked out Gene because the guy also kept looking at him in the rearview mirror and I perceived the sinister tone as him thinking that this was someone nefarious that had been sent to find him and it wasn't just a coincidence that he was a passenger. Apparently, he was just concerned that Jeff would recognize him, which is what did happen and Jeff confronted him in the mall. That was why Saul roped Jeff into committing crimes--not for the money but because he was concerned that Jeff might turn him in for a reward so he shut that down by hanging felony crimes over Jeff's head. I'm assuming both Marion and her son had moved from ABQ.

Edited August 2, 2022 by Scout Finch

[MaggieG]

I was happy to see Walt and Jesse back. And back to their bickering. BC and AP are both just so good in those roles.

[peeayebee]

1 hour ago, Penman61 said:

Also, Gene is enraged at the end. Have we seen him act out like this in frustrated rage? He repeatedly slams the receiver, and eventually kicks out the glass in the booth. 

We saw him screaming at Howard, saying he had lightning bolts (lasers?) coming out of his fingertips. He kicked the trashcan at HHM. I'm sure there are others.

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I liked the symmetry of this episode being called Breaking Bad, the shows first appearance of Walter and Jessie, while the episode where Saul was introduced back in Breaking Bad was called Better Call Saul. 

Oooo, very cool!

56 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

She’s originally from ABQ? I missed that.

She said Jeffy lived in ABQ and fell in with a bad crowd. I don't think she ever said or implied that she lived there. 

[Irlandesa]

36 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

I agree - it's nice to think that there are different choices Chuck and others could have made to keep Jimmy on the right path.  He definitely had periods, long periods, where he didn't slip and certainly Chuck's final message to Jimmy was so deeply damaging. 

I don't think there are.  Jimmy chose scheming at an early age.   His mother is at fault for overlooking his flaws....yet at the same time, Chuck is blamed because he didn't overlook them.

In the first episode, Jimmy sets up a scam to try and get a client.

Jimmy has had many many many chances to lead a good and successful life.  And he always finds someone else to blame when he doesn't. 

I don't buy that it's anyone's fault right now but his.

[scenario]

5 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't think there are.  Jimmy chose scheming at an early age.   His mother is at fault for overlooking his flaws....yet at the same time, Chuck is blamed because he didn't overlook them.

In the first episode, Jimmy sets up a scam to try and get a client.

Jimmy has had many many many chances to lead a good and successful life.  And he always finds someone else to blame when he doesn't. 

I don't buy that it's anyone's fault right now but his.

I blame Chuck because he did his best to reinforce the flaws. Jimmy is like a drug addict. Chuck basically said, "You are a drug addict. That's all you are. That's all you'll ever be. You have no chance of ever getting better no matter how hard you try or what you do." 

He is scamming to get a client to make money to survive on partly because Chuck not only refused to help him but he also thrown as many obstacles in his way as possible. 

Since childhood, Jimmy was on a knife edge between breaking good and breaking bad. He wanted to break good but the pull to break bad was strong. Then his brother told him that no matter how hard he tries he can't break good. And his wife had the same problem he had and was the worse possible choice for him. 

He had a chance to break good but his own nature and everyone around him he cared about pushed him to break bad. 

[LiterateDog]

16 minutes ago, scenario said:

29 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't think there are.  Jimmy chose scheming at an early age.   His mother is at fault for overlooking his flaws....yet at the same time, Chuck is blamed because he didn't overlook them.

In the first episode, Jimmy sets up a scam to try and get a client.

Jimmy has had many many many chances to lead a good and successful life.  And he always finds someone else to blame when he doesn't. 

I don't buy that it's anyone's fault right now but his.

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I blame Chuck because he did his best to reinforce the flaws. Jimmy is like a drug addict. Chuck basically said, "You are a drug addict. That's all you are. That's all you'll ever be. You have no chance of ever getting better no matter how hard you try or what you do." 

He is scamming to get a client to make money to survive on partly because Chuck not only refused to help him but he also thrown as many obstacles in his way as possible. 

Since childhood, Jimmy was on a knife edge between breaking good and breaking bad. He wanted to break good but the pull to break bad was strong. Then his brother told him that no matter how hard he tries he can't break good. And his wife had the same problem he had and was the worse possible choice for him. 

He had a chance to break good but his own nature and everyone around him he cared about pushed him to break bad. 

Exactly that, scenario.

Jimmy wants to be good, he certainly tries, but fails. He can *be* good, but he has to have something pushing (or pulling) him in that direction. But over the course of the show, the message to him has always been: you'll never be more than the worst of what you are. He got that from Chuck, he got that from the other lawyers he worked with, he got that from the people on the foundation committee who wouldn't even consider that girl who had stolen but had turned herself around. It all just tells him, "What's the point in even trying?"

Now, HE is responsible for HIS decisions and he has become a terrible person who has done terrible things. But the tragedy is, it didn't have to be that way. If he'd been pulled the other way, it'd all be different.

And we'd not have a marvelous show to watch, but that's neither here nor there. Because nobody's watching "Breaking Good" or "Better Call Jimmy". ;)

Edited August 2, 2022 by LiterateDog
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[ShadowFacts]

14 minutes ago, scenario said:

I blame Chuck because he did his best to reinforce the flaws. Jimmy is like a drug addict. Chuck basically said, "You are a drug addict. That's all you are. That's all you'll ever be. You have no chance of ever getting better no matter how hard you try or what you do." 

He is scamming to get a client to make money to survive on partly because Chuck not only refused to help him but he also thrown as many obstacles in his way as possible. 

Since childhood, Jimmy was on a knife edge between breaking good and breaking bad. He wanted to break good but the pull to break bad was strong. Then his brother told him that no matter how hard he tries he can't break good. And his wife had the same problem he had and was the worse possible choice for him. 

He had a chance to break good but his own nature and everyone around him he cared about pushed him to break bad. 

I can't fully agree. He could have continued with a good elder law focus, Chuck was proud of him for that and said so. He also had a nice gig at Davis and Main which he chose to be an asshat about. 

[Chaos Theory]

When Jimmy called Francesca he found out from her nothing was left of “Saul Goodman - Criminal Lawyer”.  Everyone who wasn’t already dead had made their deals with the law and gone  off to the four corners of the earth.    All his businesses which he was proud of were gone.   All his money was gone.   Even Francesca would only help him if he told her where one of his last stashes was.    There was nothing left of Saul Goodman. So he went looking for Kim and (there is likely a reason we will find out later) but he also likely found out there is nothing left of Jimmy McGill either.   he was grasping at straws when he called looking for Kim and she likely didn’t give him what he needed.     All that is left is Gene. 

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

I can't fully agree. He could have continued with a good elder law focus, Chuck was proud of him for that and said so. He also had a nice gig at Davis and Main which he chose to be an asshat about. 

That's the thing I like about BCS. It's not a black and white world. Chuck didn't cause Jimmy to be a con man. That was all part of Jimmy's nature. But Chuck could have helped him by being a supportive brother. But how could you really blame Chuck? He had serious mental health issues and wasn't able to help himself, never mind helping his brother. 

Jimmy made terrible decisions. But every person in his life he wanted to lean on for support couldn't help him because they had too many issues of their own. 

None of this said that Jimmy was a good person. He was a person who could have gone either way and would have gone good if the people around him were capable of helping him.

To me the story is boring if the person was just born bad and had no choice. The fact that he did have a choice and chose poorly both because of his inner demons and the disfunction of people around him that he leaned on made the story much deeper and satisfying. 

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

Thanks for an actual answer and not some a-hole response. (Not every one on this forum is a BCS/BB "lifer" LOL

you didn't need to be a lifer to know the answer to this question. You just need to have watched the episode. She outright tells him she's being followed, her mail is being opened and her phone is tapped. She also wasn't happy that he listed her as an owner on one of the companies he was using to hide/launder his money.

[Cinnabon]

Just now, MrWhyt said:

you didn't need to be a lifer to know the answer to this question. You just need to have watched the episode. She outright tells him she's being followed, her mail is being opened and her phone is tapped. She also wasn't happy that he listed her as an owner on one of the companies he was using to hide/launder his money.

And not once did he show concern for how she was coping personally. No questions about her feelings or how she was surviving. He never showed concern or empathy for her when she worked for him, either. She stayed for the money, and that’s it, because he was a selfish, misogynistic POS around her much of the time.

[dwmarch]

9 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

What a great pay-off for Bill Oakley!  Absolutely terrific.

Am I to understand based on the bus bench advertising that when Saul went out of business, Bill Oakley became ABQ's new Saul Goodman? That does tie a nice bow on all their snarky scenes.

[Chaos Theory]

24 minutes ago, scenario said:

None of this said that Jimmy was a good person. He was a person who could have gone either way and would have gone good if the people around him were capable of helping him.

But that is the nature of a tragedy.  It is also ultimately why I like BCS more then BB.   BB was the story of a psychopath showing his true nature.  Yes it was an incredibly well told story but ultimately I think the idea that Jimmy is the guy who could have gone either way but kept chosing the bad way because the people who could have helped him on the right path couldn’t,  wouldn’t,  or just didn’t.     Tragedies have been around forever for a reason.  

Edited August 2, 2022 by Chaos Theory

[peeayebee]

Have we heard the name of Jeff's friend? I just read the interview with Tom Schnauz at The Hollywood Reporter, and there's this quote:

Quote

So he fires [Jeff’s friend] (Max Bickelhaup) who won’t do it, and he decides to go do it himself. 

What caught my eye is that "Jeff's friend" is in brackets. That's done when a word or phrase has been replaced editorially. It made me wonder if Schnauz used the character's name by accident, that it will be revealed in a later ep. Sounds weird, so I'm probably wrong. Maybe it was just that he said "him" in the interview, and the editor replaced it with "Jeff's friend" to clarify who he was referring to.

[sistermagpie]

11 minutes ago, scenario said:

That's the thing I like about BCS. It's not a black and white world. Chuck didn't cause Jimmy to be a con man. That was all part of Jimmy's nature. But Chuck could have helped him by being a supportive brother. But how could you really blame Chuck? He had serious mental health issues and wasn't able to help himself, never mind helping his brother. 

And it's especially arrogant for Chuck to keep telling him that he's just always going to be a thief and no-good because that's who he is down deep when Jimmy is the person who most cared for Chuck during his illness. Jimmy supported Chuck's view of himself as much as he could. Chuck could only see the Jimmy he hated and never give him credit for being his caregiver. If anything it probably made him angrier. 

Chuck also made choices that drove him his own fate, which wasn't so different from his brothers maybe.

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, peeayebee said:

Have we heard the name of Jeff's friend? I just read the interview with Tom Schnauz at The Hollywood Reporter, and there's this quote:

What caught my eye is that "Jeff's friend" is in brackets. That's done when a word or phrase has been replaced editorially. It made me wonder if Schnauz used the character's name by accident, that it will be revealed in a later ep. Sounds weird, so I'm probably wrong. Maybe it was just that he said "him" in the interview, and the editor replaced it with "Jeff's friend" to clarify who he was referring to.

I think I read somewhere that the friend’s name is Buddy. Don’t quote me on that.

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

And it's especially arrogant for Chuck to keep telling him that he's just always going to be a thief and no-good because that's who he is down deep when Jimmy is the person who most cared for Chuck during his illness. Jimmy supported Chuck's view of himself as much as he could. Chuck could only see the Jimmy he hated and never give him credit for being his caregiver. If anything it probably made him angrier. 

Chuck also made choices that drove him his own fate, which wasn't so different from his brothers maybe.

I can't get that mad at a mentally ill person striking out at the people trying to help them. It happens all the time. The problem is that this time it indirectly led to so much destruction because it helped push Jimmy into becoming Saul. 

[sistermagpie]

9 minutes ago, scenario said:

I can't get that mad at a mentally ill person striking out at the people trying to help them. It happens all the time. The problem is that this time it indirectly led to so much destruction because it helped push Jimmy into becoming Saul. 

True. It was just thinking that also in this case Chuck just can't see Jimmy as being the kind of person who will stop by and bring him stuff and follow all his protocols because he loves him, as if being a thief is his entire personality. I think he started ignoring things like that about Jimmy early on.

[scenario]

1 minute ago, sistermagpie said:

True. It was just thinking that also in this case Chuck just can't see Jimmy as being the kind of person who will stop by and bring him stuff and follow all his protocols because he loves him, as if being a thief is his entire personality. I think he started ignoring things like that about Jimmy early on.

Chuck comes across as a black and white thinker. Everyone is either good or bad. Following the law is good. Breaking the law is bad. He deep down couldn't understand why someone would steal baby formula to feed a starving baby. Stealing is bad.

Once he put Jimmy into the bad person file, there was nothing Jimmy could do to change his mind. Jimmy never understood that and kept trying to please someone who he could never please.

It's like Howard and his wife. He clearly loved her and wanted to please her but it was too late for that. He was never going to please her no matter how hard he tried. But both of them would have eventually gotten along with their lives and been fine. Jimmy's only other support was Kim and she and he were toxic to each other.