S08.E19: Negative, Part 1

[Trini]

The Flash and team are in for the fight of their lives, meanwhile, Iris discovers the cause of her time sickness.

Jeff Byrd directed the episode written by Jonathan Butler & Gabriel Garza.

Airdate: 6/22/2022

[cambridgeguy]

Kind of figured TC's Thawne wasn't killed off for good, but I have to admit I never would have expected him to come back by peeling away ML's version like a banana peel.

The Caitlin scene was a waste of time (the finale already has enough to work on without a KF resurrection) and who the heck decided that Cecile needs to be the Professor X of the world?  Plus heroes don't go around stealing other people's powers.

[Trini]

What did I just watch??

Iris has been disappeared with no explanation, the explanation is a whole lot of exposition consisting of *I guess...*, and then she gets killed by her husband -- WOW. Just WOW.

And then they had to squeeze in two completely disconnected subplots, one to fulfill Panabaker's contract, and the other because ... Cecile needs to be the most powerful of ALL, because ... ??

Well, you're not a real speedster until a loved one dies, so congrats, Meena.  :(

Joan Garrick looking the same nearly 30 years in the future; yeah, the hair and makeup team has always been lazy, but it's still disappointing they didn't try.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Trini
oops grammar

[DanaK]

I really wonder how Candice Patton feels about Iris being offscreen or unconscious so many times this season with Barry being mostly unconcerned about her? Unless she wanted this much time off, it just feels like the writers are doing everything they can to keep Iris and Barry separated and/or out of each other's orbits this season

[SevenStars]

14 minutes ago, DanaK said:

I really wonder how Candice Patton feels about Iris being offscreen or unconscious so many times this season with Barry being mostly unconcerned about her? Unless she wanted this much time off, it just feels like the writers are doing everything they can to keep Iris and Barry separated and/or out of each other's orbits this season

I don't know how Candice really feels about it and we might never know because she might not want to burn any bridges but base on Eric's interview, he seems to believe for the storyline sake Iris needed to be gone for at least 4 eps. Giving me more reason to want him gone.

[DanaK]

16 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

I don't know how Candice really feels about it and we might never know because she might not want to burn any bridges but base on Eric's interview, he seems to believe for the storyline sake Iris needed to be gone for at least 4 eps. Giving me more reason to want him gone.

Thanks, I missed that interview. Only 4? It feels like most of the season

[Quark]

This was all pretty meh. Thawne back and with his powers just had me rolling my eyes.

[Proteus]

Everytime I think this show can't get worse, it does. But I feel like I should expect that since the Eric Wallace years of the show have been some of the worse years of television I have ever seen.

Why would Wallace bring back the forces when he has to know how much they were hated last year? They and especially Dion are the worse villains in the Arrowverse in my opinion.

I loathe Tom Cavanaghs Eobard Thawne/Reverse Flash. A once compelling villain has now become nothing but a one note, sniveling, cartoon. It's gotten to the point where I can't even stand looking at him. Any deaths or resurrections with him have lost all meaning. 

Oh great. Cecile have "leveled up." I've hated this character since she was first introduced. I will never understand why the writers love her so much & give her so much screen time.

That scene of Cecile, Chester, & Allegra strutting onto the scene to face the forces....just no.

I wish TPTB would end this show already. It's not even fun to hate watch anymore.

[thuganomics85]

Silly me got my hopes up with the return of the Kid Flashes who; once again; were the highlights of this episode (and season, frankly), but then everything else happened...

Safe money is on Iris not being gone for good, but it is ridiculous to have her gone for so many episodes and then finally returns only to be "sacrificed" by Deon blipping her into the path of Barry's lightning.  Hey, I get that Grant Gustin excels when it comes to crying on cue and bringing in the emotional turmoil, but I am so not looking forward to the guilt Barry will not doubt feel over this.  Again though, I'm sure it will all work out (then again, I sometimes get the vibe Candice Patton has checked out on all of this, which I can't blame her at this point.)

Meanwhile, I literally groaned out loud when they not only killed off Matt Letscher's version of Eobard, but have "Reverse Flash" return in the form of Tom Cavanagh's again.  Seriously, at the risk of repeating myself: Tom is no doubt one of the most talented performers here, but I'm just so over his version of the character and feel like he's just slumming it at this point.  Has to be one of the most overplayed villains in the entire Arrowverse.  Ugh.

Cecile can now absorb other meta's powers which seems kind of problematic, but she was treating it like it was no big deal.  I get that it was probably because most of her "victims" so far are criminals, but the whole thing seems like it was almost comical which was just an odd tone compared to everything elsse.

Fun seeing variations of Alexa and Bashir again.  I know he's suppose to be the bad guy, but I can't say I disagree with Bashir's "B-Team" crack and declaring that Allegra wasn't good at the whole hero thing.

Don't even have the energy to talk about how much I hate the Caitlin/Chillblame/Resurrect Frost subplot.

At least next week is the finale, right?

[Terrafamilia]

I have officially stopped trying to make sense of this show (and it is long overdue).

[Lantern7]

Make the season end . . .

Seriously, we're losing Legends of Tomorrow, but we have the prospect of another season of mediocrity? It's sad that most of the villains this season can't compete with Allie over on Superman & Lois.

No more Forces. No more Thrawnes. No More Thrawnes that look like Harrison Wells. No more "level up," which is probably the safe phrase said anytime Cecile and Joe get really frisky at home. No more time sickness. No more Frost resurrection. Just . . . ugggggggggh.

I don't hate it, but I am so tired. I just want to wrap this season up and get ready for Stargirl.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Lantern7

[Trini]

On 6/23/2022 at 4:02 PM, Proteus said:

Everytime I think this show can't get worse, it does. But I feel like I should expect that since the Eric Wallace years of the show have been some of the worse years of television I have ever seen.

Why would Wallace bring back the forces when he has to know how much they were hated last year? They and especially Dion are the worse villains in the Arrowverse in my opinion.  ...

Didn't think they could do worse than the Mirror arc; but boy, was I wrong!

Wallace has brought back a bunch of things the show has done already (and better).

On 6/23/2022 at 12:30 PM, DanaK said:

...  it just feels like the writers are doing everything they can to keep Iris and Barry separated and/or out of each other's orbits this season

The writing has been so off. It's obviously a disservice to Iris; but it's also making Barry, the lead hero, look bad that he can't/won't do anything to save the most important person in his life. Do the writers not see that as a problem??

20 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

I have officially stopped trying to make sense of this show (and it is long overdue).

I mean, it's a fantasy show, so there's only so much realism I'm expecting; but things still have to flow logically from what been previously established, and they're just not doing that. Now things just happen for a surprise! plot twist or 'cool' visual. Or a 'cool' cameo.

17 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

...

I don't hate it, but I am so tired. I just want to wrap this season up and get ready for Stargirl.

It sucks that it got pushed back to Fall. I was really looking forward to seeing Courtney & co. this summer.  :(

Edited June 24, 2022 by Trini

[rmontro]

8 hours ago, Proteus said:

I loathe Tom Cavanaghs Eobard Thawne/Reverse Flash. A once compelling villain has now become nothing but a one note, sniveling, cartoon. It's gotten to the point where I can't even stand looking at him.

I don't mind him so much, except the way he whispers all his lines.  Drives me crazy.  I agree this show is past its expiration date though.  For every decent episode, there are four or five bad ones. 

11 hours ago, DanaK said:

I really wonder how Candice Patton feels about Iris being offscreen or unconscious so many times this season with Barry being mostly unconcerned about her? Unless she wanted this much time off, it just feels like the writers are doing everything they can to keep Iris and Barry separated and/or out of each other's orbits this season

I've heard she has been in negotiations over her contract.  In pro wrestling, when a wrestler has not yet signed to renew his contract, a lot of times they will de-emphasize him on the show, giving him less TV time, and have him lose to other wrestlers who are signed up for awhile.  It might sound mean, but it's also good business sense.  They invest in the characters who they know are going to be around.  And maybe send a message "Hey, you need to sign".  Maybe they're doing the same thing with Candice.

[7kstar]

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Silly me got my hopes up with the return of the Kid Flashes who; once again; were the highlights of this episode (and season, frankly), but then everything else happened...

Safe money is on Iris not being gone for good, but it is ridiculous to have her gone for so many episodes and then finally returns only to be "sacrificed" by Deon blipping her into the path of Barry's lightning.  Hey, I get that Grant Gustin excels when it comes to crying on cue and bringing in the emotional turmoil, but I am so not looking forward to the guilt Barry will not doubt feel over this.  Again though, I'm sure it will all work out (then again, I sometimes get the vibe Candice Patton has checked out on all of this, which I can't blame her at this point.)

I loved the kids and Bart brings something new because he really hasn't been explored.  Sad when a few minutes of the show is the highlight.

It's uneven on Candice.  Either they do to much on her or it becomes hand wringing will she make it or not.  I'm sure she could be ready to move on.  Really the show seems ready to end.

8 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

Meanwhile, I literally groaned out loud when they not only killed off Matt Letscher's version of Eobard, but have "Reverse Flash" return in the form of Tom Cavanagh's again.  Seriously, at the risk of repeating myself: Tom is no doubt one of the most talented performers here, but I'm just so over his version of the character and feel like he's just slumming it at this point.  Has to be one of the most overplayed villains in the entire Arrowverse.  Ugh.

Yeah, I don't get it.  Tom C left but he's baccck.  I do like Tom but he's become one note.  I was enjoying Matt L being the good guy with issues.  The show is now a mix bag and maybe it is time for it to end.  Could be why it has been changed on its lineup.  For me, this season was a little better than the Mirror season, but I miss Flash being the Happy Hero without the weight of the world.  I miss the comedy that brought a nice mix to the show.

[tennisgurl]

Sure glad we didn't just kill Thawne when we had the chance so we could hold onto some poorly defined ethical high ground. If they had just let this asshole wink out of existence, not only would half of this crap not be happening and good Thawne would be alive, but we, the poor audience, wouldn't be subjected to this insufferable overused character. I cannot believe how bad this show has gotten, why they want to bring back Thawne for the billionth time to do the same damn things is beyond me. The show actually had something decent with good Thawne, and then they ruined it just so that their pet villain can come back. An even more baffling choice is to bring back the speed forces, one of the most hated aspects of one of their most hated seasons, but I guess the show has decided to double down to try and make us interested in these idiots, which I am never going to be. 

Yeah, this is why you should probably be a bit concerned when someone you love has disappeared into thin air, you probably should have done more about this than shrug and say "it'll work itself out." But I guess that's inevitable when half the cast is spending all of their time in terrible subplots, playing mad scientist or vigilante, instead of trying to help their friend/wife/daughter. This Cecile stuff is so useless, I have no idea why she is even going around patrolling without telling anyone except for Joe right now or why we are still doing this stupid annoying story where Caitlin and Chilllame threaten us with the return of Frost. I still cant believe that they are probably going to drag Frost's useless ass back from the dead after we spent a whole episode being forced to listen to everyone wail about how perfect she was and how the world is a lesser place without her. 

I know I wasn't supposed to, but I laughed when Bashir called Cecile, Allegra, and Chester the B team, he isn't exactly wrong. Sadly though, there is hardly even an A team at this point, its basically just Barry. 

I got excited when we saw Bart and Nora, who have been one of the shows few highlights lately, but even they end up having to be put on the backburner. Its just more crap to keep Barry and Iris away from each other and to give Barry even more angst. It makes me sad to say this, but they really just need to end this show. How did this show survive the CW purge when so many good shows got the axe?

Edited June 25, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Cthulhudrew]

Erg.

At this point, I'm only watching this show for one or more of the following reasons:

1) Momentum/completion. I've stuck with it this long, may as well (although I did manage to cut myself off the Wheel of Time books several novels before the conclusion. Maybe I'm just too weak now?)

2) Hate watching.

3) Hidden masochistic tendencies.

[Cthulhudrew]

On 6/23/2022 at 2:39 PM, thuganomics85 said:

Seriously, at the risk of repeating myself: Tom is no doubt one of the most talented performers here, but I'm just so over his version of the character and feel like he's just slumming it at this point.  Has to be one of the most overplayed villains in the entire Arrowverse.  Ugh.

Agreed. I was kind of hoping this arc would mean that Letscher would return to the role in a more nuanced villain/hero Thawne. He's demonstrated the chops to show a wide range with the character that TC (who I love) has not shown since S2.

I feel like Cavanaugh, Neil McDonough, and John Barrowman all started out really killing their charactes adn roles. But they all clearly got to a point of dialing it in/camping it up with their roles and were ready to move on. Let those characters move on entirely, or put them in a vehicle that caters to their current performance level. I would could absolutely love watching the heck out of a totally over-the-top Reverse Flash/Damien Darkh/Merlyn series (something akin to Gail Simone's vol 1 Secret Six series).

I also hope this is Candace Patton's effort to get out of this series at this point. I think she is/has been severely underutilized, and deserves so much better. A friend- who never watched The Flash- came to a Flash panel with me at either WonderCon or Comic-Con and- with no knowledge of the characters or performers (and not being a particularly insightful person)- immediately observed to me that CP seemed to be completely hating being on the panel. I didn't cotton to it much at the time, but having seen how her character and performance have been treated over the years, and having read some perhaps questionable BTS reporting, I am not sure he was entirely off.

[Featherhat]

At this point I really have to hope that CP wanted time off because if this whole lacklustre "arc" has been planned then I don't know what the hell Wallace and co are smoking. It really says something about the state of the series when Iris is "killed" by Barry and in so many places the Iris/WA fan reaction was "sigh, I'm sure it will work itself out" and more talk about Thawne becoming TC yet *again* and not in a good way. 

We know there's going to be a happy ending - and there will be even if CP does leave the series early- but there's no need to make it so nonsensical and non urgent seeming. I guess maybe they didn't want a repeat of Savatar (although they've repeated absolutely everything else so why not?) and whilst Iris barely had a POV and a sense of urgency in that plot at least it was a big deal! 

MirrorVerse plot still has my vote as biggest Iris wasted potential that they actually put on screen (as opposed to potential storylines they didn't even bother writing that cried out for attention) but this is just a bizarre way to handle everything. 

We really don't need to see Caitlin trying to resurrect Frost more urgently right after she died than we need to see Barry being worried and investigating *anything* that's clearly been going on with his wife for over a season. 

[Trini]

9 hours ago, Featherhat said:

At this point I really have to hope that CP wanted time off because if this whole lacklustre "arc" has been planned then I don't know what the hell Wallace and co are smoking.

It doesn't even matter if Candice wanted time off; that doesn't explain the terrible writing that's been going on for the whole season with Iris and the time sickness -- which was planned, per Wallace.

Quote

It really says something about the state of the series when Iris is "killed" by Barry and in so many places the Iris/WA fan reaction was "sigh, I'm sure it will work itself out" ....

Not sure which places you're referring to, but that's definitely not the reaction I've seen. People assume that Iris will miraculously return somehow (because, duh), but everyone hates that it happened at all, especially with how the rest of the season has been. (I know there are #LetIris BeGreat and variations of #IrisDeservesBetter CandiceDeservesBetter hashtags campaigns on twitter.)

But speaking of loved ones dying -- it seems to be a (disturbing) pattern this season. In Armageddon, Cecile was mourning Joe; the Deathstorm arc in which Caitlin loses Ronnie for the third time, and then Frost (not to mention, everyone else being haunted by their dead loved ones); Chillblaine mourning Frost; Tinya losing her birth mother as soon as she meets her*; just-introduced Meena loses her love, Eobard; and of course, Barry losing and then 'killing' Iris. Even if there are magical returns, it's kind of a downer; this show doesn't need to be this depressing just for shock value.

*Are they even going to resolve this next week??

[phoenics]

Looks like I was right to quit this show.  Barry looks like the worst husband in the world.  EW killed WestAllen for me.

[Primal Slayer]

So Allegra and Cecile got power ups so they could help take on the Speed Force gods or whatever....ok.

It's always nice to see the twins but at this point all of this seems repetitive. 

[Misslindsey]

10 hours ago, phoenics said:

Looks like I was right to quit this show.  Barry looks like the worst husband in the world.  EW killed WestAllen for me.

Same. I watched last season even though it was so underwhelming. I have not watched any of this season, but I keep reading here to see what happens or if it is getting better. I guess not. I wish Iris got better writing. Hell, I wish the show was written better.

I will be at my table for one, because while I like the actors, I cannot stand the adult/future children Bart and Nora. I just hate that story and concept. 

[Trini]

BTW, this episode make The Flash the longest running (most episodes) DCTV show since Smallville ended; surpassing Arrow.