S01.E08: The Elysian Kingdom

[Sandman]

On 6/23/2022 at 12:36 PM, dwmarch said:

Spock just wants to be a wizard I guess.

Hee! Guess so. I think Peck was having a ball, as were the others. The costumes, especially Gooding's glittery fingernails of eeevil, and Mount's butt-part hair, were peak Eighties. The production style seemed more Dungeons & Dragons (the movie) or Labyrinth than The Princess Bride to me. (The Princess Bride seems more of a loving take on the material than a strictly camp treatment would allow for. But then I'm usually in the anti-camp... er, camp.) I thought the episode was unlike TOS to the extent that there was little focus on breaking the crew out of their delusion -- which I think would have been the way the plot would have run on Kirk's Enterprise.

On 6/23/2022 at 1:24 PM, LydiaMoon1 said:

The storybook plot dragged a little at times. Pike was amusing as a simpering coward and tough-as-nails La'an was entertaining as the pampered princess, but I wish the rest of the cast had utilized a bit more camp. Don't get me wrong, the episode was good. It had the potential to be great...

The Dr.'s performance was just so muted. The actor always seems so low energy. It's fine when he's in the background, but front and center? Nah. His separation from Rekiah could and should have been heartwrenching, but it felt like....IDK...like he was ready to go eat a ham sandwich. There just wasn't much emotional resonance there, at least not to me.

I think the episode stayed on the right side of the line; a more flagrantly camp approach would not have worked for me. I think it would have run the risk of draining all of the emotional resonance out of the scenes for Dr. M'Benga and Rukiya. I actually liked the way he played those scenes. The doctor isn't a particularly demonstrative guy. Yes, he's reserved, but I definitely felt the wrench of it. Maybe bringing Rukiya back after an instantaneous lifetime of adventuring foreshortened the doctor's path of grief and doubt, but I thought all three actors were moving and convincing. (I was thinking that this was how the Traveller could have worked on TNG -- without Wesley Crusher's purported (and yet somehow never perceptible) awesomeness.

On 6/23/2022 at 3:16 PM, Llywela said:

Okay, that was hilarious until it was heartbreaking. A bit of a surprise, though, to have the sub-plot of little Rukiya wrapped up so soon and in what ended up being a fairly muted fashion. That felt like something that could have run longer and ultimately involved more people. In the end, only M'Benga and Una even knew she was ever on the ship, if I recall correctly. ...

I still wish PIC had been more like this. Those characters deserved this kind of showcasing too.

"Hilarious until it was heartbreaking" is a great way to put it. I agree that I was expecting the Rukiya plot thread to run a bit longer. Somehow the idea that so few people on Enterprise knew about Rukiya, and now no one else knows what happened at all, makes the doctor's situation worse, rather than less wrenching, to me. Lonelier, I think. Agreed about Picard. I can't help thinking that the second season wasted a lot of potential.

On 6/23/2022 at 3:16 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Thank you, SNW, for the ugly cry I didn't know this episode would bring out.  I lost my father recently and I was totally with M'Benga and Rukiya. 

The fairy tale come to life was so surprising and hella funny.  I especially loved Uhura being the vengeful Queen!  It gave us another insight into the crew; Pike the Boy Scout becoming a cowardly minion, La'an becoming a pampered princess, etc.  That Christina Chong used her actual dog in this episode was a plus.  I wonder what the dog showed up as in M'Benga's scan? 

...

I figured that the cure for Rukiya would come with a steep cost. I was okay in the decision he made, since she couldn't stay in the sickbay transporter buffer forever.  Letting her go caused the waterworks for me; I cried even harder when she came back to reassure her father that she was okay. 

Yep -- this was my reaction, too. (Also, I wish I'd come up with "Deb the Neb"; that's nice.)

Edited June 29, 2022 by Sandman

[Joimiaroxeu]

OMG, Pike as the wormy, obsequious chamberlain. Fantastic. Anson Mount was clearly having a blast.

Sir Rauth's trousers were working for me. Oh yes.

Princess Thalia was a riot, and in that ridiculous dress. She must have been wearing 10 crinolines. M'Benga all but busted out laughing when he first saw her.

Spock as Pollux was gorgeous, in a younger Keanu Reeves sort of way.

I was bothered by Queen Neve's stiletto fingernails. I guess she could have people dress and bathe her but how did she eat on her own without wrecking her face? Were they removable?

Good to see Hemmer again.

M'Benga giving up his daughter to save her life and free the ship was a bit of punch in the feels. But now the writers won't have to explain why a character on hold in the transporter is getting noticeably older.

[Ottis]

8 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Starfleet definitely has nebula issues

LOL. They seem to come up A LOT.

[paigow]

9 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Starfleet definitely has nebula issues.

Genesis has not been deployed yet, so the Mutari Nebula is still active, then the nebula that the Cardassians were hiding in when Picard got tortured...

[CarpeFelis]

10 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I was bothered by Queen Neve's stiletto fingernails. I guess she could have people dress and bathe her but how did she eat on her own without wrecking her face? Were they removable?

They looked to me like finger armor—removable. Example: https://www.etsy.com/listing/793343279/hand-finger-claws-metal-glove-diablo (I am not the seller; these just reminded me of Queen Neve’s)

[Llywela]

10 minutes ago, wrlord said:

Don't think "liege" can be used to refer to a woman.

Of course it can. 'Liege' simply means 'a feudal superior to whom allegiance and service are due', which can absolutely be a woman. Even in the middle ages (the story gave me a very medieval vibe) women could inherit land/kingdoms and rule in their own right, and on those occasions, 'my liege' would be a correct form of address. Besides, it was a fairytale written for a child, and anything is possible in those!

Edited June 27, 2022 by Llywela

[wrlord]

9 hours ago, Llywela said:

Of course it can. 'Liege' simply means 'a feudal superior to whom allegiance and service are due', which can absolutely be a woman. Even in the middle ages (the story gave me a very medieval vibe) women could inherit land/kingdoms and rule in their own right, and on those occasions, 'my liege' would be a correct form of address. Besides, it was a fairytale written for a child, and anything is possible in those!

Actually, I've done some research. The feminine form is "liegewoman."

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, wrlord said:

Actually, I've done some research. The feminine form is "liegewoman."

Who would still be addressed as 'my liege'. I have a BA in medieval history. Plus, again, it's a children's fairytale. Real world rules do not apply.

Edited June 27, 2022 by Llywela

[MissLucas]

Liegewoman is the subject/vassal part in a feudal relationship, just like liegeman. The superior partner in that relationship can be addressed as Liege regardless of gender.

[wrlord]

23 hours ago, Llywela said:

Who would still be addressed as 'my liege'. I have a BA in medieval history. Plus, again, it's a children's fairytale. Real world rules do not apply.

Then I'd appreciate a reference. Is there any literary example of it being used to refer to a woman?

18 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Liegewoman is the subject/vassal part in a feudal relationship, just like liegeman. The superior partner in that relationship can be addressed as Liege regardless of gender.

It sounds odd.  I'm not insisting I'm right, but I'd certainly appreciate a reference. It seems to me a vassal would say "milady" or, in the case of royalty, your highness or majesty.

[MissLucas]

3 hours ago, wrlord said:

Then I'd appreciate a reference. Is there any literary example of it being used to refer to a woman?

It sounds odd.  I'm not insisting I'm right, but I'd certainly appreciate a reference. It seems to me a vassal would say "milady" or, in the case of royalty, your highness or majesty.

Good luck trudging through the archives. The term initially refers to the feudal bond itself - that's why it can be applied to both partners of a feudal relationship and without further context it requires a hierarchical qualifier. I'm pretty sure that 'my liege' on its own in official documents is rare. Here's the proclamation of Queen Victoria.

Quote

“Whereas it hath pleased Almighty God to call to His mercy our late Sovereign Lord King William IV, of blessed and glorious memory, by whose decease the Imperial Crown of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland is solely and rightfully come to the high and mighty Princess Alexandrina Victoria…We…do now hereby, with one voice and consent of tongue and heart, publish and proclaim, that the high and mighty Princess Alexandrina Victoria is now, by the death of our late Sovereign, of happy memory, become our only lawful and rightful Liege Lady Victoria, by the Grace of God, Queen of the united kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, saving as aforesaid.

The counterpart is the liege man or liege woman. From the oath of Prince Philip to Queen Elizabeth on her coronation.

Quote

“I, Philip, Duke of Edinburgh, do become your liege man of life and limb and of earthly worship … so help me God.”

The simple use of 'my liege' therefore only works in a context that provides additional information on the established hierarchy - i.e. plays, movies and books. In other words, I blame Shakespeare.

[starri]

Let's get back to discussion of the episode, please and thank you.

[whiporee]

Good shows can have bad eps. But I'm a little concerned that somehow they're running out of ideas -- first pirates, now princesses. 

it doesn't have to be phaser shots all the time, but maybe a bit more story creativity than we're seeing. 

[kay1864]

Much as I might love the notion of Una with another woman, the dialogue “We know each other quite well… Quite well” really didn’t belong in a little girl’s version of her favorite book. Save it for another episode, writers. 

[millennium]

This was beyond awful.   It's like the holodeck had a terrible stomach ache and vomited this up.  

The only thing missing was Mrs. Troi.

[Makai]

2 hours ago, kay1864 said:

Much as I might love the notion of Una with another woman, the dialogue “We know each other quite well… Quite well” really didn’t belong in a little girl’s version of her favorite book. Save it for another episode, writers. 

Why? Disney has included more obvious innuendos than that. The plot came from Rukiya but she was didn’t appear to be scripting the dialogue. I assumed the relationship was set by her and the words were Una’s based on that character. 

[kay1864]

13 minutes ago, Makai said:

I assumed the relationship was set by her and the words were Una’s based on that character.

The relationship was a “joining up in battle” relationship, not a sexual one. All the other characters stayed consistent with their behavior in the book, as understood by Rikiya. If Debra extracted that relationship from Rukiya, it makes no sense to extrapolate it to hot innuendo.

[Makai]

Just now, kay1864 said:

The relationship was a “joining up in battle” relationship, not a sexual one. All the other characters stayed consistent with their behavior in the book, as understood by Rikiya. If Debra extracted that relationship from Rukiya, it makes no sense to extrapolate it to hot innuendo.

In my experience as one, little girls love to see romance in stories. At that age romance isn’t sexual. I have no problem with the idea that a little girl would imagine a romantic relationship between two characters that she liked and then Debra or the character themselves added the innuendo to fit the relationship. If this was entirely in Rukiya’s head I would agree with you but it wasn’t. 

[millennium]

On 6/29/2022 at 2:30 PM, whiporee said:

Good shows can have bad eps. But I'm a little concerned that somehow they're running out of ideas -- first pirates, now princesses.

They're flailing and they're only 8 episodes in!!!  

[Catfi9ht]

I liked this one. I thought this episode really scratched that cross-genre itch without too much camp. Using the little girl's storybook as the basis for the genre switch felt like a good way to create something campy and have a more logical foundation at the same time. 

I loved the personality changes in La'an and Pike. Both actors did a really good job with the material. This solidifies my theory about my issues with La'an being about how they write her character and not the actor's choices. Anson Mount continues to have charisma for days even when portraying a sniveling, catty coward.

I love it when you can see the actors believing in the material. Their performances evolve into something special.

This show has won me over and I couldn't be happier about it. 🥰

ETA: this show works best for me when it's episodic rather than serial which is a complete 180 from my usual preference. Channeling my inner Spock to note that this change is fascinating to me.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Catfi9ht
Added another idea

[wanderingstar]

I loved this episode, and I definitely didn’t expect to.  When I realized that the story was being pulled from Rukiya, I thought/hoped she could be saved. M’benga saying goodbye to his daughter was heartbreaking. I legit teared up, and I did not expect that at all when I sat down to watch this episode.

As for the rest…

Quote

Celia Rose Gooding looked fantastic in her Evil Queen Getup and was clearly having a ball.

LOVED Uhuru as Queen Neve. In fact, I loved seeing all the cast members play these heightened fairytale characters. I knew I was enjoying the episode because I kept looking forward to seeing which characters each crew member would be.

Edited August 24, 2022 by Gillian Rosh

[Quickbeam]

Just got Paramount so motoring through this series. I hated this episode, felt like “fun with fancy dress” for the cast. It just felt flat to me but glad the doctor’s kid side story got resolved. 

[dovegrey]

On 3/29/2023 at 9:17 PM, Quickbeam said:

Just got Paramount so motoring through this series. I hated this episode, felt like “fun with fancy dress” for the cast. It just felt flat to me but glad the doctor’s kid side story got resolved. 

Same. Felt like a waste for 90% of the characters, since no one remembered and they weren’t themselves. They have 10 episodes, not broadcast 22-25, and I’m surprised they did this episode (and the mutiny episode).

It also makes me wonder why Pike wouldn’t be brought to this nebula after the radiation accident, unless Pike really doesn’t want to become whatever Deborah and Rukiya are. 

[Prevailing Wind]

On 6/25/2022 at 2:59 PM, paigow said:

Which makes no sense if he had already been Chief Medical Officer... 

Perhaps he was happy to take on reduced responsibilities so he can research a cure for cygnowhateveritis.

[Trini]

I guess "sentient nebula with god-like powers solves everything" is on-brand for Star Trek, but I was actually hoping that M'Benga would find a cure for his daughter. Now that medical info he got from that other father a few episodes ago seems like a waste of time.

[Raja]

On 6/24/2022 at 8:41 PM, Cthulhudrew said:

This reminds me a lot of the sort of ST: TNG episodes that popped up once in a while. Unfortunately, this was so over the top and singularly focused that I couldn't finish watching it at all. I don't know if it had to do with the characters involved (I find M'Benga to be a good supporting character but not interesting enough as a main, and can't stand Ortegas).

With the old traditional TV schedules where a show filled half of the year with new content you could more easily send one like this out. With the newer tight 10 episodes TV seasons I don't even have to look at the episode count to know that the penultimate episode is coming next.

[John Potts]

I feel it’s a little early to change the characters when I’m yet to get a solid fix on who everyone is. And even for a fairy story, it seemed a little static – too many scenes of everyone standing around while the Doctor/King spoke to somebody. I suppose in a Kingdom everyone defers to the King so if he spouts gibberish, they’re honour bound to play along, but if we’re talking a fairy story then there should be more action. And if we’re talking a fairy story, wouldn’t Pike be the Evil King who stops the heroic Prince (Dr M’Benga) from seeing his daughter – Celia Rose Gooding was great as the Evil Queen, but she seems an unlikely choice for the Doctor’s daughter (Rukiya?) to put into that role.

Also (other than wanting to avoid having to deal with child actors), why did the energy beings age up Rukiya? If they’re non-corporeal, wouldn’t they keep her the same age? Was it Rukiya’s choice?

Disappointing that the Doctor didn’t use the Enterprise’s technical abilities to “solve the plot”. Other than Hemmer teleporting the “Crimson Guard” away, they never tried storming the Evil Queen’s Palace by just stunning everyone with phaser fire? Or finding a way to flood the decks with sedative gas? “Real World” tech seemed to work in the fairytale Kingdom (presumably, you dress it up as some sort of magic), so it should have worked. Kirk in “Spectre of the Gun” tried a scientific solution (it didn’t work), but it should have worked here. In fact, where was everyone else? Are there really only ten people in the crew? The Cage gave the crew complement as 203 so it should be somewhere around that.