S06.E07: Plan and Execution

[Gobi]

27 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Again, important people have their deaths very deeply investigated. There is not a world where Cliff and his secretary are not asked about the strange happenings in Howard's last few days, including weird stuff involving a PI, even if they think Howard was a drug addict or murdered by a serial killer.

And the autopsy, which is mandatory under these circumstances, isn’t going to show any drugs other than alcohol in his system. And as others have pointed out, there won’t be any powder burns on his hand.

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Bannon said:

It's not respect. It's trusting the pursuit of self-interest. Getting things terribly wrong about the deaths of important people poses an obvious threat to entire institutions, thus massive resources are devoted to looking at their deaths. Even if they think it's a serial killer, they look at what was happening in the lives of victims. Howard is not a prostitute living on the street, or some poor slob getting by. Yes, if there was a convenient patsy to hang it on (the wealthy wife is definitely not a convenient patsy), they may not look hard too long. A uncaptured serial killer is not a convenient patsy. 

We may just disagree about this.

You do have a good point. The police will investigate. I just believe that the pressure is to solve this fast and they've got proof that he was killed by a gun used for other mob hits. Ultimately he was killed by the mob. Lalo is the killer. Jimmy and Kim's plot really have nothing to do with his death other than the fact that they lured Howard to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

If he's found shot execution style somewhere other than in Jimmy and Kim's apartment, the fact that he had some sort of professional argument with another lawyer is not that important.

Jimmy and Kim's plot may well be discovered by I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't connected to Howard's death in any substantial way. 

I think we are probably both wrong and the real answer will come out of left field but will make perfect sense. 

[Constantinople]

20 minutes ago, scenario said:

Police will be under a lot of pressure to solve this case quickly. Once they find out that Howard was killed by the same gun that was used in other mob killings,

What other mob killings?

I doubt Lalo used the exact same gun as when he killed Fred from TravelWire. Nor would the gun in Germany be the same. I forget what gun Lalo used when his house was attacked, but even if it's the same gun, how would Albuquerque Police have access to ballistics tests done by a Mexican law enforcement agency, if any were done?

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, Gobi said:

And the autopsy, which is mandatory under these circumstances, isn’t going to show any drugs other than alcohol in his system. And as others have pointed out, there won’t be any powder burns on his hand.

Yup, The autopsy will find that Howard was shot execution style by a gun used in other mod killings. Saul will be suspected but if the evidence in Saul's apartment is eliminated by professionals how can the police link the killing to him? 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, scenario said:

You do have a good point. The police will investigate. I just believe that the pressure is to solve this fast and they've got proof that he was killed by a gun used for other mob hits. Ultimately he was killed by the mob. Lalo is the killer. Jimmy and Kim's plot really have nothing to do with his death other than the fact that they lured Howard to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

If he's found shot execution style somewhere other than in Jimmy and Kim's apartment, the fact that he had some sort of professional argument with another lawyer is not that important.

Jimmy and Kim's plot may well be discovered by I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't connected to Howard's death in any substantial way. 

I think we are probably both wrong and the real answer will come out of left field but will make perfect sense. 

Oh, I'm not saying Howard's murder is going to be connected to Kim and Saul. I'm saying looking at Howard's murder is going to nearly inevitably entail Kim and Saul's plot against Howard being discovered.

[SimplexFish]

4 minutes ago, scenario said:

You do have a good point. The police will investigate. I just believe that the pressure is to solve this fast and they've got proof that he was killed by a gun used for other mob hits. Ultimately he was killed by the mob. Lalo is the killer. Jimmy and Kim's plot really have nothing to do with his death other than the fact that they lured Howard to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. 

If he's found shot execution style somewhere other than in Jimmy and Kim's apartment, the fact that he had some sort of professional argument with another lawyer is not that important.

Jimmy and Kim's plot may well be discovered by I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't connected to Howard's death in any substantial way. 

I think we are probably both wrong and the real answer will come out of left field but will make perfect sense. 

I think usually head shots from point blank range like this, the bullet exits the other side of the skull, leaving ballistics out of the equation.  

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

What other mob killings?

I doubt Lalo used the exact same gun as when he killed Fred from TravelWire. Nor would the gun in Germany be the same. I forget what gun Lalo used when his house was attacked, but even if it's the same gun, how would Albuquerque Police have access to ballistics tests done by a Mexican law enforcement agency, if any were done?

Lalo is a serial killer. He's killed a lot of people. It's almost certainly not the gun used in Europe, But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he's killed other's with this gun or will kill others with it like some of Gus's men. 

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Oh, I'm not saying Howard's murder is going to be connected to Kim and Saul. I'm saying looking at Howard's murder is going to nearly inevitably entail Kim and Saul's plot against Howard being discovered.

And what if it is. Do they have enough evidence to convict him? I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they strongly suspect Saul and Kim but the fact that Saul's still has his license later on say's that they couldn't get enough evidence to prove it. 

The police aren't going to spend a whole lot of time investigating Kim and Saul's plot to frame Howard. They'll find evidence in the course of investigating Howard's murder but that's not their primary concern. 

[scenario]

14 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

I think usually head shots from point blank range like this, the bullet exits the other side of the skull, leaving ballistics out of the equation.  

If a professional like Mike cleans up the scene, they will find the bullet and make sure that the bullet is found at the recreated crime scene. Maybe they find him dead in his car in the desert. 

Mike might want the body to be found if it leads to Lalo. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by scenario
additional info

[Eulipian 5k]

10 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

That the weirdness would tank the case makes no sense.  The facts are the facts. 

All parties, except the mediator , know each other as colleagues, surely they'd understand that HHM has a colleague to attend to and maybe let's recess today's hearing. Clifford did the right thing to salvage a hopeless situation.

[Penman61]

Did I miss an "Aha--Lalo IS alive!" moment from Mike and Gus?

I mean, I know Gus's GussySense® had told him Lalo wasn't burned to death in the hacienda shootout, but wasn't this episode the first time when both Mike and Gus have actual evidence--Lalo's phone-tapped voice!--that Lalo lives? I'm sure I'm just forgetting a scene/moment...

Edited May 24, 2022 by Penman61

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Eulipian 5k said:

All parties, except the mediator , know each other as colleagues, surely they'd understand that HHM has a colleague to attend to and maybe let's recess today's hearing. Clifford did the right thing to salvage a hopeless situation.

I'm not knowledgeable about this, but I'd think one of the law firms openly accusing a mediator of accepting a bribe, at the outset of the 1st session, would render the entire purpose of a mediator impossible to pursue. The mediator would have no choice but to shut it down, and advise the judge that a new mediator would have to be named. Then the 1st mediator would file ethics charges against the the lawyer who made the false charge, along with the judge sanctioning that lawyer.

It's that last act that really forces Cliff's hand with regard to Schweikert's shrinking offer. Frankly, Sandpiper residents now have a pretty good claim against HHM, as does Davis&Main. What a mess. Kim and Saul are 100× the A-holes that poor, murdered, Howard ever was.

[scenario]

21 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

What other mob killings?

I doubt Lalo used the exact same gun as when he killed Fred from TravelWire. Nor would the gun in Germany be the same. I forget what gun Lalo used when his house was attacked, but even if it's the same gun, how would Albuquerque Police have access to ballistics tests done by a Mexican law enforcement agency, if any were done?

Lalo is currently living in a sewer. He's planning to kill all of Gus's guards at the laundry solo in the next day or two. I wouldn't be surprised if he uses the same gun. Gus may not be able to clean up that many killings. His guards were killed in a robbery gone wrong by a desperate criminal who'd killed poor Howard the day before.

[Constantinople]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

So three weeks before Jimmy just happened to have the forward thinking to pull this phone number scam? Plus during those three weeks this huge law firm did not need the services of the PI company? 

I supposed G&G had to get the fake PI in somehow and this was as good as any other plan I suppose

The complexity of Kim & Jimmy's plan requires that a lot of little things go right. You mentioned the telephone number.

What if Jimmy never saw the mediator with a broken arm?

What if Jimmy couldn't take new photos because Lenny or the others weren't available?

What if Howard had a reaction to the drugs that prevented him from doing much of anything or if he fainted? After all, he drinks chamomile tea.

Someone already asked, what if Howard decided to meet the fake PI after the mediation?

What if Howard took the fake photos with him or locked them up somewhere?

What if Howard wasn't fooled or was skeptical? Is it really likely that the mediator who is a retired judge vouched for by Cliff would take a bribe from Jimmy? What if Howard remembered that Cliff "saw" "Howard" kick a prostitute out of Howard's car? If Jimmy can steal Howard's car, he can fake a photo. In Season 1, Jimmy was ordered by the court to stop impersonating HHM.

And what happens afterwards? Won't Cliff Main wonder why Kim ditched that meeting with the foundation?

[scenario]

4 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Did I miss an "Aha--Lalo IS alive!" moment from Mike and Gus?

I mean, I know Gus's GussySense had told him Lalo wasn't burned to death in the hacienda shootout, but wasn't this episode the first time when both Mike and Gus have actual evidence--Lalo's phone-tapped voice!--that Lalo lives? I'm sure I'm just forgetting a scene/moment...

I believe that they were both sure beyond a reasonable doubt a long time ago. The tape just confirms what they already knew. 

[ahmerali]

1 hour ago, Dev F said:

I wonder if Kim is going to be the one who goes to Mike against Jimmy's wishes. And if I'm right about Lalo wanting Saul to deliver the tape to Eladio, I wonder if Mike ends up intercepting it as a result. That could be the explanation for both the expected rift between Jimmy and Kim and the "It wasn't me, it was Ignacio!" line: Saul thinks Lalo is coming after him for not delivering the tape and tries to pin it on Nacho instead, since he can't very well blame Kim.

I think it's going down this road for sure. I forgot that of course now Kim knows about Mike, and in an effort to hide form Jimmy the fact that she knew that Lalo was still alive, she'll approach him. After Lalo is offed by Fring, Mike will engineer a way that will explain both their deaths...maybe something like setting them up in Howard's home, with Howard dead after having shot intruder Lalo? That would give us a chance to see Sandrine Holt as Cheryl again...

Another thing to remember, as I pointed out, is that Lalo has to die, and the news reach Hector, in such a way that Fring is totally 100 percent in the crystal clear. They may have to concoct an elaborate story where Fring was coming to Howard's home but by the time he got there, it was too late and there were already two dead bodies...

There is absolutely no question - it would frankly be a massive disappointment, on the level of the ridiculous crappy ending of Game of Thrones - if Kim did not "Disappear". The question is why...a speculative but sensible thing would be that she does in fact take the tape to Mexico and hands it over to the Cousins (no way in hell she'll get near Eladio directly), but unbeknownst to her, Mike has switched the tape and the Cousins end up getting something innocuous. But Kim is spooked, and maybe there is some other fallout from the Howard death that causes her to get out of Dodge.

Last crazy idea: what if maybe - just maybe - Lalo's game is not to send Kim, but rather Jimmy, with the tape - Jimmy after all has already made a trip to Mexico and the Cousins have seen him - and he directs Kim to visit Casa Tranquila, to pass a message to Hector?

[Chaos Theory]

I don't want to get into it but who says anyone is going to find Howard's body?  Howard does have alot of perceived problems so if he disappears there is alot of reasons for him to maybe just walk off one day and disappear.  He has marriage falling apart.   He just nuked his professional reputation.   So even if someone just say something the police may just decide that he just walked out on his life.

[ahmerali]

1 minute ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don't want to get into it but who says anyone is going to find Howard's body?  Howard does have alot of perceived problems so if he disappears there is alot of reasons for him to maybe just walk off one day and disappear.  He has marriage falling apart.   He just nuked his professional reputation.   So even if someone just say something the police may just decide that he just walked out on his life.

That is quite possible. And with regards to Cliff - he is too busy right now to worry about Howard excessively. It will be one of those "Oh, gee, I'm really sorry about that. What a shame. Gotta get back to work though."

Edited May 24, 2022 by ahmerali

[peeayebee]

54 minutes ago, Irlandesa said:

But he clearly didn't.  All Lalo had to even do was wait until Howard left or stand not looking at him.  It felt like an unnecessary extra body for Lalo. 

Sure.  I just don't know why Lalo would think he cared. 

Lalo could see that Kim and Jimmy were terrified. Even though Howard didn't look scared, it makes sense that Lalo would kill him because there's no way K&J could make Howard think everything's fine, this guy is nothing to worry about, blah blah blah. However, the main reason, I believe, that Lalo killed him is to scare K&J. After all, the last time he visited the apartment, he left them alive. He needs their services, whatever those would be, and by putting the fear of God in them, he guarantees they'll cooperate.

In the Vanity Fair interview with Fabian, he says, "I’m just in the way. At this point, Lalo’s singular focus is about Fring, as far as I can tell. He already sees that I’m a problem, no matter what. So I’m just disposable. I’m a fly. He needs to talk to Jimmy and Kim right now. Who’s this guy? Get out of the way. And I think it probably also works as an intimidation factor."

3 minutes ago, Penman61 said:

Did I miss an "Aha--Lalo IS alive!" moment from Mike and Gus?

I mean, I know Gus's GussySense had told him Lalo wasn't burned to death in the hacienda shootout, but wasn't this episode the first time when both Mike and Gus have actual evidence--Lalo's phone-tapped voice!--that Lalo lives? I'm sure I'm just forgetting a scene/moment...

Mike had all his guys (or Gus's guys, whatever) watching Gus's house, business, Kaylee and Stacy, Kim and Jimmy, etc., so everyone in that circle knew about Lalo being alive. If Gus said it was so, it was so.

[peeayebee]

8 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don't want to get into it but who says anyone is going to find Howard's body?  Howard does have alot of perceived problems so if he disappears there is alot of reasons for him to maybe just walk off one day and disappear.  He has marriage falling apart.   He just nuked his professional reputation.   So even if someone just say something the police may just decide that he just walked out on his life.

Yeah, I'm 99% sure that Howard's body will disappear, whoever takes care of that. Cliff or Cheryl may call the police because he's missing, but there would be no reason to suspect murder. After all, he was acting crazy at work and was humiliated, so his disappearing wouldn't raise red flags. 

[BC4ME]

1 hour ago, Irlandesa said:

But he clearly didn't.  All Lalo had to even do was wait until Howard left or stand not looking at him.  It felt like an unnecessary extra body for Lalo. 

I agree. I mean, Lalo is all Mr. secretively hiding and watching everything. Couldn't he have watched Jimmy's apartment for five minutes before he walked in. And then waited until Howard left. 

I still think it was a genius, strong ending I wasn't expecting. But some little holes can be punched here and there.

[Gobi]

49 minutes ago, scenario said:

Lalo is a serial killer. He's killed a lot of people. It's almost certainly not the gun used in Europe, But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he's killed other's with this gun or will kill others with it like some of Gus's men. 

A professional like Lalo would ditch a gun after using it once. He may have to hold on to this one for the moment (presuming he can’t get a replacement immediately) but he wouldn’t have used a gun that could be connected to an earlier crime.

And, to pick a nit, silencers ( suppressors actually) don’t work in real life as they do in movies and tv. A gun fitted with a suppressor is still very loud. Everyone in that apartment building would have heard that shot.

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Constantinople said:

The complexity of Kim & Jimmy's plan requires that a lot of little things go right. You mentioned the telephone number.

What if Jimmy never saw the mediator with a broken arm?

What if Jimmy couldn't take new photos because Lenny or the others weren't available?

What if Howard had a reaction to the drugs that prevented him from doing much of anything or if he fainted? After all, he drinks chamomile tea.

Someone already asked, what if Howard decided to meet the fake PI after the mediation?

What if Howard took the fake photos with him or locked them up somewhere?

What if Howard wasn't fooled or was skeptical? Is it really likely that the mediator who is a retired judge vouched for by Cliff would take a bribe from Jimmy? What if Howard remembered that Cliff "saw" "Howard" kick a prostitute out of Howard's car? If Jimmy can steal Howard's car, he can fake a photo. In Season 1, Jimmy was ordered by the court to stop impersonating HHM.

And what happens afterwards? Won't Cliff Main wonder why Kim ditched that meeting with the foundation?

Their plot could have failed at any time. They knew that. That was half the fun. 

If Lenny or the other's weren't available they have to go to plan b.

If Howard looks for the fake detective that he'd call a disconnected burner phone. 

The deliberately timed it so that it was just minutes before the meeting. He'd need to have a safe in his office to file it in a safe. Jimmy and Kim knew he didn't have one. He had enough time to look the pictures over and maybe lock them in his draw which I'm sure the detective could pick. The biggest risk would be that Howard would take the photo's in with him or hand them to his secretary. The thing against that would be Howard was a creature of habit and he would never carry anything in with him to a formal meetings. He's got people to do that sort of stuff for him. That was a really big risk but they trusted the fake PI to handle that part of it for them. 

If Jimmy hadn't seen the broken arm, the plan would have failed. 

They trusted the Vet that that the drug wouldn't have any serious affects. 

If Howard was skeptical, the plan wouldn't work and he'd be left with a picture of  Jimmy handing a frisbee to a guy who just happened to look a lot like the judge but when you really look at it its clearly not the judge. That's not enough to get Jimmy disbarred. He's  already burned his bridges with Howard so he doesn't really give a damn what any of them think of him.

A picture of Jimmy handing a frisbee to a person who looks somewhat like the judge but clearly isn't on further examination isn't proof of a massive plan. You would end up with a situation where some people would believe Howard and blame Jimmy. Some people would believe Howard and blame Jimmy but still blame Howard for being so stupid. And other people would still believe that Howard is paranoid. 

The thing is to Kim, the more complicated the plan is the more fun it is to pull it off. She hated Howard and go off on pulling such an elaborate scam against him. The more risky it is the more fun it is. It's an incredible adrenaline high. 

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, Gobi said:

A professional like Lalo would ditch a gun after using it once. He may have to hold on to this one for the moment (presuming he can’t get a replacement immediately) but he wouldn’t have used a gun that could be connected to an earlier crime.

And, to pick a nit, silencers ( suppressors actually) don’t work in real life as they do in movies and tv. A gun fitted with a suppressor is still very loud. Everyone in that apartment building would have heard that shot.

I agree he would have ditched the gun as soon as it was convenient but he was currently staying in a sewer and was planning a mass killing in a few hours. Maybe he didn't care all that much at that point. 

I agree about the silencer but it's been used so often that its become an acceptable plot line in a story. People would complain more if it was louder. It's like shooting a lock off with a single shot. That rarely works with a good lock. 

[Constantinople]

The police will investigate Howard's disappearance. That doesn't mean they'll  find him just because Howard is a prominent member of the legal community.

Ray Frank Gricar (/ˈɡriːkɑːr/; born October 9, 1945, missing since April 15, 2005) was an American lawyer who served as the district attorney of Centre County, Pennsylvania, from 1985 until 2005. On April 15, 2005, Gricar went missing under mysterious circumstances and has not been heard from since. After he had been missing for over six years with no trace of his whereabouts, Centre County authorities declared Gricar legally dead on July 25, 2011. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar

[tennisgurl]

Holy shit, I need a minute. I have wondered before if Howard would meet his end before the show ended, but I wasn't really sure until that candle flickered. It was shocking but it also feels organic, even inevitable in retrospect. At least Howard got to read Saul and Kim for filth before he died, and while they will probably try to shake everything he said off, it looked like some of those hits were really landing. He absolutely nailed it when he said that they did this for fun, not for the money, and you just know that those are the exact excuses they have been using to mess with Howard. He was a jerk to them, he was too close to Chuck, he was born into privilege when neither of them were, but those are all just excuses. They just did it because they loved the rush, they liked doing it, and they liked being good at it. A couple of sociopaths that like to hurt people for kicks. Its going to be really hard to root for them even a little bit after this. 

Howard might not have been a saint, but he certainly never deserved to die like this or to have his life burned down by these two assholes, what they've done for shit and giggles is way worse than anything he's gotten into. As others have said, there is an interesting parallel with Howard's death and Nacho's, both of them knew that they were screwed, via death or career, but managed to get one last big screw you to the person who ruined their lives in before death. He certainly managed to hold onto some dignity than those two assholes managed to as they cackled over their petty schemes working out the way they planed. Fuck those two smug sociopaths.

Edited May 24, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Gobi]

6 minutes ago, scenario said:

I agree he would have ditched the gun as soon as it was convenient but he was currently staying in a sewer and was planning a mass killing in a few hours. Maybe he didn't care all that much at that point. 

I agree about the silencer but it's been used so often that its become an acceptable plot line in a story. People would complain more if it was louder. It's like shooting a lock off with a single shot. That rarely works with a good lock. 

I think it’s reasonable that he would hold on to that gun for now. I meant that it is unlikely he would have brought a gun with him that had already been used.

I agree about the silencer trope, it just tends to weaken my suspension of disbelief. Not a fatal flaw. 

[SimplexFish]

Why would Fring and Howards paths even cross?

[Bannon]

5 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The police will investigate Howard's disappearance. That doesn't mean they'll  find him just because Howard is a prominent member of the legal community.

Ray Frank Gricar (/ˈɡriːkɑːr/; born October 9, 1945, missing since April 15, 2005) was an American lawyer who served as the district attorney of Centre County, Pennsylvania, from 1985 until 2005. On April 15, 2005, Gricar went missing under mysterious circumstances and has not been heard from since. After he had been missing for over six years with no trace of his whereabouts, Centre County authorities declared Gricar legally dead on July 25, 2011. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Gricar

I certainly didn't mean to imply that he'd be found. My point was that a vigorous investigation into Howard's death or disappearance would almost certainly entail Kim and Saul's plot being revealed. There's just no way that Howard's dealings with PI's, in the days leading up to him vanishing, or turning up dead, would not be explored.

[Constantinople]

1 minute ago, SimplexFish said:

Why would Fring and Howards paths even cross?

Have you tasted the chicken at Los Pollos Hermanos? A jet setting, cosmopolitan man, equally comfortable in Mexico, the US, Germany and possibly Croatia said "This is the best chicken I have ever had."

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, SimplexFish said:

Why would Fring and Howards paths even cross?

Both very prominent businessmen in the somewhat small city of Albuquerque, the biggest town in a state with a pretty small population. It hasn't been shown, but it would bex really unusual if the senior partner for one of the state's largest law firms was not pretty involved in charitable activities, in the manner that Gus was. It'd be more surprising if they never crossed paths.

[scenario]

28 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I certainly didn't mean to imply that he'd be found. My point was that a vigorous investigation into Howard's death or disappearance would almost certainly entail Kim and Saul's plot being revealed. There's just no way that Howard's dealings with PI's, in the days leading up to him vanishing, or turning up dead, would not be explored.

The only thing that would matter to Kim and Saul would be if they could prove it enough to disbar them. I think that the way Kim and Saul are now, they'd be proud of destroying Howard. A strike for the little guy. They wouldn't care if everyone knew it as long as they couldn't prove it.

Is there enough evidence to disbar them? Is we really think they did something really bad but don't have a whole lot of evidence to prove it enough to get someone disbarred? The fake PI probably took all the other pictures. So they'd have a picture of Saul sitting on a bench handing a frisbee to a guy who happened to look a lot like the judge. It could have been taken weeks ago. They've got a telephone number of a burner phone but not the fake PI. They've got the fact that a person unknown called and changed the number to the PI's office. A lot of things lead to Saul but do they have enough proof to disbar him? 

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think there's enough evidence to prove that Saul did anything unethical enough to disbar him. Lots of people will believe that Saul did it but his reputation in the legal community is already shot. He doesn't care what people think of him at this point. 

Saul will probably blame the wife. Howard's been ranting about him for months. She set him up. No one will believe him but it would muddy the waters. 

Edited May 24, 2022 by scenario

[Crashcourse]

I can't speculate on what might happen.  All I know is, I'm going to be royally pissed if Saul and Kim wind up living happily ever after somewhere.

Unless it's Belize.

[scenario]

2 minutes ago, Crashcourse said:

I can't speculate on what might happen.  All I know is, I'm going to be royally pissed if Saul and Kim wind up living happily ever after somewhere.

Unless it's Belize.

I can see Saul and Kim living happily together for part of an episode until it all crashes down on them. 

[SimplexFish]

On a different note...has anyone ever noticed that all of the burner flip phones in Saul's top drawer are never on chargers..?

[Razzberry]

In the film they were watching before Howard arrived, Judy Holliday is mentored by William Holden and becomes smarter.  Kim is aided and abetted by Jimmy and becomes dumber.

Super villain Lalo couldn't wait 5 minutes for their visitor to leave?  OK. The only good thing about Howard's murder is it puts an end to this interminable obsession of theirs.  Now the story can move in another direction which promises to be more exciting.

[peeayebee]

Just read an interview with writer/director Tom Schnauz where he said, re the Howard-gets-shot scene, that he had the blood splatter hit the painting over the couch because that was K&J's idea board. 

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-features/better-call-saul-midseason-finale-interview-1235152764/

[scenario]

3 minutes ago, Razzberry said:

In the film they were watching before Howard arrived, Judy Holliday is mentored by William Holden and becomes smarter.  Kim is aided and abetted by Jimmy and becomes dumber.

Super villain Lalo couldn't wait 5 minutes for their visitor to leave?  OK. The only good thing about Howard's murder is it puts an end to this interminable obsession of theirs.  Now the story can move in another direction which promises to be more exciting.

Lalo didn't care. They may even turn to him for help hiding the crime. 

[Bannon]

10 minutes ago, scenario said:

The only thing that would matter to Kim and Saul would be if they could prove it enough to disbar them. I think that the way Kim and Saul are now, they'd be proud of destroying Howard. A strike for the little guy. They wouldn't care if everyone knew it as long as they couldn't prove it.

Is there enough evidence to disbar them? Is we really think they did something really bad but don't have a whole lot of evidence to prove it enough to get someone disbarred? The fake PI probably took all the other pictures. So they'd have a picture of Saul sitting on a bench handing a frisbee to a guy who happened to look a lot like the judge. It could have been taken weeks ago. They've got a telephone number of a burner phone but not the fake PI. They've got the fact that a person unknown called and changed the number to the PI's office. A lot of things lead to Saul but do they have enough proof to disbar him? 

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think there's enough evidence to prove that Saul did anything unethical enough to disbar him. Lots of people will believe that Saul did it but his reputation in the legal community is already shot. He doesn't care what people think of him at this point. 

Saul will probably blame the wife. Howard's been ranting about him for months. She set him up. No one will believe him but it would muddy the waters. 

No, they posed the frisbee handoff they way they reshot the money bag handoff. It was likely reshot as well, and the frisbee thrower was one of the film crew, I believe. He can be tracked down. Bar associations aren't held to the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it's usually the standard of clear and convincing evidence, nor is there any 5th Amendment right against self incrimination in a disbarment proceeding. That's before we get to any civil action of Howard's estate against Saul, where the standard is merely the preponderance of the evidence. Saul can be made to testify, to very wide ranging topics, or his refusal to answer questions can have a negative inference attached to it. For even the most skilled liar,  being forced to answer questions is a nightmare, if there is something to hide. There really isn't an easy way out of Howard's violent death or disappearance, for Saul.

[SimplexFish]

Wouldn't it seem suspect to the other people that Howard even had photos of Jimmy and the Frisbee man?  I mean since Howard admitted that he had a PI following Jimmy why would that PI give him these random pics and why would Howard "think" he saw the mediator and Jimmy doing a cash exchange?

[scenario]

16 minutes ago, Bannon said:

No, they posed the frisbee handoff they way they reshot the money bag handoff. It was likely reshot as well, and the frisbee thrower was one of the film crew, I believe. He can be tracked down. Bar associations aren't held to the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, it's usually the standard of clear and convincing evidence, nor is there any 5th Amendment right against self incrimination in a disbarment proceeding. That's before we get to any civil action of Howard's estate against Saul, where the standard is merely the preponderance of the evidence. Saul can be made to testify, to very wide ranging topics, or his refusal to answer questions can have a negative inference attached to it. For even the most skilled liar,  being forced to answer questions is a nightmare, if there is something to hide. There really isn't an easy way out of Howard's violent death or disappearance, for Saul.

I guess your right. Saul couldn't possibly get away with it. He's going to be disbarred shortly. The problem with that argument is that Saul wasn't disbarred so we know he got away with it. 

Saul won't refuse to answer. He'll blame someone else. Possibly Kim. 

My question is, is the evidence we've seen so far clear and convincing evidence? What do the investigators really have. 

[scenario]

I can see two possibilities. Howard disappears.

"He's been acting strangely ever since his partner died. You know he's been in counseling ever since then. He and his wife have been having a lot of troubles because he's been acting strangely. He's been ranting about his dead partners brother for a while now. Making wild accusations against him. And did you know he was caught with drugs a while back? He's been showing symptoms of mental illness for a while now. Why didn't someone do something sooner before he made a fool of himself? The poor guy's probably dead out in the desert somewhere. They'll probably find his body in a year or two."

Or if they find his body showing he was killed execution style, 

"Where does it say that you can't kill a cop?...I'm talking about a cop that's mixed up in drugs. I'm talking about a dishonest cop and a crooked cop who got mixed up in the rackets and got what was coming to him. That'd make a helluva story. Now we got people in the newspapers, right Tom? They might like a story like that."

Mike can plant evidence in his house that he was involved in drug trafficking somehow, 

I'm sure that the real answer will be something that I haven't thought of. 

[Pj3422]

4 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I don't have cable or satellite, so I can't watch this, unless it's online somewhere. It's not on the AMC+ site. :)

Same here. I’m looking forward to Vince Gilligan, et.al discussing the episode on today’s Better Call Saul Insider podcast. 

[Ellaria]

2 hours ago, ahmerali said:

There is absolutely no question - it would frankly be a massive disappointment, on the level of the ridiculous crappy ending of Game of Thrones - if Kim did not "Disappear". The question is why...

Well, it would not be a massive disappointment for me if Kim did not "disappear." I feel that they will have gone to this storytelling well once too often. I'm not saying that it will not happen. Rather, I don't like that end for Kim. Someone in the BCS/BB universe needs to face the consequences of their actions...consequences that are beyond their control. Not every character should have the option of running/hiding and then spending their days sulking at Cinnabon.

3 hours ago, Bannon said:

G&G believe in consequences, most of all. I can't see them thinking, in light of Howard's murder, that a few years of living under a fake name, then a happy ending, is adequate consequence.

Agree. This isn't a world of happy endings. I like that Gene is taking matters into his own hands and doesn't want to be "disappeared" again. I can't even guess where that leads but I assume that he is finally willing to accept the consequences of his misdeeds...the ones that landed him in Omaha in the first place. 

[Booger666]

I don’t think Kim disappears after this. Rewatched the Ep 1 opening after this episode and in the bathroom there are 2 sinks.  The first is clearly Jimmy’s (lots of RX bottles and a big one of Viagra) and the second sink has nutritional supplements and much more minimalist beauty products - the kind that Kim of the constant pony tail and little make up might use.  It was an interesting rewatch because the vet’s black book that didn’t have context at the beginning of the season makes sense now.

[Emma Snyder]

2 hours ago, ahmerali said:

There is absolutely no question - it would frankly be a massive disappointment, on the level of the ridiculous crappy ending of Game of Thrones - if Kim did not "Disappear".

Now I think the opposite, I will be massively disappointed if Kim makes it out alive. I can't see Saul being the horndog he eventually becomes with Kim alive somewhere. But I can also see a final scene of "Gene" getting together with Kim. I'm rarely right about this show, so who the heck knows?

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I'm 99% sure that Howard's body will disappear, whoever takes care of that.

Get thee a plastic (NOT PORCELAIN!!) bucket and hydrofluoric acid!

13 minutes ago, scenario said:

"Where does it say that you can't kill a cop?...I'm talking about a cop that's mixed up in drugs. I'm talking about a dishonest cop and a crooked cop who got mixed up in the rackets and got what was coming to him. That'd make a helluva story. Now we got people in the newspapers, right Tom? They might like a story like that."

What cop? Did I miss something else? I almost always do LOL.

[Penman61]

3 minutes ago, Booger666 said:

It was an interesting rewatch because the vet’s black book that didn’t have context at the beginning of the season makes sense now.

What doesn't make sense to me is that law enforcement didn't scoop that book up: The region's most notorious criminal lawyer has flown the coop, and you find a book of coded entries...and don't even confiscate it? Weird...

[scenario]

1 minute ago, Emma Snyder said:

Now I think the opposite, I will be massively disappointed if Kim makes it out alive. I can't see Saul being the horndog he eventually becomes with Kim alive somewhere. But I can also see a final scene of "Gene" getting together with Kim. I'm rarely right about this show, but who the heck knows?

Get thee a plastic (NOT PORCELAIN!!) bucket and hydrofluoric acid!

What cop? Did I miss something else? I almost always do LOL.

It's a famous movie quote.

I'm saying that someone like Mike could plant enough evidence to make it look like Howard had gotten himself involved in organized crime and got himself killed because of it. He's been acting unstable lately and his wife will barely speak to him. 

[Penman61]

6 minutes ago, Emma Snyder said:

What cop? Did I miss something else? I almost always do LOL.

The poster is quoting Michael Corleone from the first Godfather film, explaining how, with the right cover story, you can kill anyone, including a police chief.

ETA: Scenario posted while I was composing...:)

Edited May 24, 2022 by Penman61

[gallimaufry]

15 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I don't buy Kim's devolution. I just don't.

She's always enjoyed a good con, and over the years she's taken bigger and bigger risks. But she always had a pretty strong sense of right and wrong.

Or at least she did, until she dealt with that repulsive old man last season (the one who wanted to keep his house). We're supposed to believe that when he pointed out that she was representing the rich and powerful, a flip switched inside of her. And suddenly she threw away her moral compass, and decided that any crazy scam could be justified if she convinced herself that she was taking down the powerful.

No, I don't buy it. I might have believed her doing all of this, if Howard was using some horribly sleazy tactic that was really screwing over the Sandpiper residents. Under those circumstances, I could see Kim convincing herself that destroying his reputation would be justified.

But this turn to the dark side is just too far. In a short period of time, she's become unrecognizable as the character she used to be.

This.  I love the show and I'm sad to say it but... this.  They just about kept her on track for most of Series 5, although even then it was getting tenuous, but since 510 it feels like they've really lost the thread with her and aren't trying all that hard to find it. 

I mean, in show-time it's only max three months since she was crying in a stairwell because she had told a benign lie to a client in 501.  I trust that there'll be a Jimmy/Kim postmortem, probably as they bury Howard, and hopefully that will shed light but it feels like Howard's conclusion was the one we were supposed to concur with.

All that said, I did love the episode and I love that Patrick Fabian got his own "Rock and Hard Place". 

I avoided the spoilers that were out there in specifics but I did see a lot of articles talking about "maybe Howard will die" which frankly I hadn't seen coming and which made me wonder if there were leaks.  Coupled with the warning for suicide I thought this would end with Howard killing himself.

But it's another absolute genius pay-off: if you recall Lalo calling Saul a "cockroach", from the second he sees the cockroach in the sewer you know where he's heading.

So as soon as Howard arrived in the apartment, it was obvious there was only one exit for him even before Lalo arrived.

I don't love that Howard, like Nacho, spent 6 years being highly peripheral, has one episode in the sun being righteous and then gets shot in the head.  With both characters it feels a bit "too little, too late".

And yet as ever, the episode was masterfully put together.  The scam was fascinating, the law scenes superb, the acting on point.  Lalo was too strong a flavour last season when he featured but here he's perfect -- lurking in the shadows and piecing everything together.  I was surprised he called Hector but at least he figured out that the phone was bugged.  I guess Lalo didn't have reason to think Gus knew he was alive but what an amazing way to write two ultra-intelligent characters.  Amazing.