S06.E07: Plan and Execution

[Cinnabon]

57 minutes ago, Starchild said:

Maybe it was an indication of the effect of the drug on Howard's judgment? Without it, perhaps he wouldn't have made that choice. It does seem out of character.

I thought that was totally in character for Howard. It doesn’t make him a bad person and certainly doesn’t make him deserving of what happened to him, but absolutely in character, imo. He was shown meticulously setting up the meeting room ahead of time, including moving the chairs so that there would be room to accommodate a wheelchair in Irene’s spot.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Cinnabon

[PeterPirate]

The guy who tested the spinning can thing made another video.

I sent the video to my daughter and she sent me back this:

Smart ass.  

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I just looked at the IMDB, and am astonished that he's done a ton of work since the early 90s. Yet I have seen none of it! Not one frame!

I did the same! I was actually shocked by his long resume. I shouldn't have been. It's just that, like you, it's kind of amazing that I haven't seen him in anything else. Well, actually, I have seen many of those shows, but I don't remember him.

3 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

But Walt didn’t kill those people. Everything we do and every choice we make changes the course of life in minute ways. If I invite my parents over and they get into a fatal accident on the way, did I kill them? Or did the other driver kill them? Or did the other driver’s child who distracted them, causing them to look away from the road briefly kill them? Lalo was the only one who killed Howard.

It's true that Walter didn't kill those people, but it's likely they wouldn't have died if he hadn't let Jane die. And Howard wouldn't have died if J&K hadn't done their whole scam thing because Howard wouldn't have come over to their house. 

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

But Walt didn’t kill those people. Everything we do and every choice we make changes the course of life in minute ways. If I invite my parents over and they get into a fatal accident on the way, did I kill them? Or did the other driver kill them? Or did the other driver’s child who distracted them, causing them to look away from the road briefly kill them? Lalo was the only one who killed Howard.

Here's what Kim knows

Lalo snuck into her and Jimmy's place once before and was about to get violent before she talked him down.

Lalo is clever enough to fake his own death

Lalo is alive (though Mike expressed skepticism about this to Gus, he never did to Kim).

Mike thinks the chances Lalo will "reach out" to Kim and Jimmy are sufficiently high to have two men following her (I don't recall if a separate pair followed Jimmy when Kim and Jimmy were apart).

Mike said the chance was a thousand to one Lalo would reach out to them, which doesn't make sense unless he's got such unlimited resources that using two or more men full time on Kim and Jimmy isn't a waste.

Wendy spotted the men following Kim. If Wendy can, Lalo can. So even though Kim didn't know that the men following her had been pulled off to watch Gus, she had no reason to believe they couldn't be avoided.

After what Kim and Jimmy did to Howard, it's reasonable to expect Howard would confront them.

The easiest place for Howard to confront them is Kim and Jimmy's place.

The easiest place for Lalo to "reach out" to Kim and Jimmy is their place. As noted, he has before.

Does that mean Kim is legally responsible for Howard's death? No, but that doesn't absolve her.

If the gas company thought the chances of your house exploding were sufficiently high they had two technicians monitoring it full time, would you invite someone over? Or do something that would cause someone to stop by?

[Milburn Stone]

51 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

And Howard wouldn't have died if J&K hadn't done their whole scam thing because Howard wouldn't have come over to their house. 

I just hope J&K don't let themselves off the hook by saying, "Well, damn, we told him to leave."

Sadly, I can see them doing just that.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

I did the same! I was actually shocked by his long resume. I shouldn't have been. It's just that, like you, it's kind of amazing that I haven't seen him in anything else. Well, actually, I have seen many of those shows, but I don't remember him.

It's true that Walter didn't kill those people, but it's likely they wouldn't have died if he hadn't let Jane die. And Howard wouldn't have died if J&K hadn't done their whole scam thing because Howard wouldn't have come over to their house. 

I remember Patrick Fabian from his one-time appearance on NCIS, where he played an oily congressional aide. 

If J&K had not helped Lalo jump bail he would not have been free to murder Howard.  They are accessories-after-the-fact in the murder of Travel Wire Fred, and they have Howard's blood on their consciences, if not their hands.  

40 minutes ago, Milburn Stone said:

I just hope J&K don't let themselves off the hook by saying, "Well, damn, we told him to leave."

Sadly, I can see them doing just that.

I see that too.  Kim, especially, will repress any feelings she might have about the wrongness of what they did.  

Edited May 29, 2022 by PeterPirate

[gallimaufry]

I recognised Patrick Fabian as a cheating professor from "Veronica Mars" and a cheating businessman from "24", roles where he was decent but felt like he was playing into a particular type, so when he turned up in BCS, I was prepared to be underwhelmed.  Of course, I shouldn't have had any doubt and he's been one of my favourites for a long time.  He's marvellous and I hope he gets a lot more work as a result.

That said, while Howard is one of my favourites and Patrick Fabian has definitely been underrated, if there's an Emmy shout for this half-season it has to be Michael Mando.  The range needed for that role this year, from the extreme physicality to the emotional intensity is off the charts.  Granted, it's partly just luck that, as much as Fabian had to do in his final script, Mando had more.  And sometimes these decisions are just weird - I could see Rhea Seehorn being recognised out of guilt for unjustly missing out in previous years, although I don't think 6A has been as strong a showcase of her range as a lot of seasons (I'm sure 6B will be).  Michael Mando though just ran with that role and delivered a true tour-de-force ending.

[Cinnabon]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Here's what Kim knows

Lalo snuck into her and Jimmy's place once before and was about to get violent before she talked him down.

Lalo is clever enough to fake his own death

Lalo is alive (though Mike expressed skepticism about this to Gus, he never did to Kim).

Mike thinks the chances Lalo will "reach out" to Kim and Jimmy are sufficiently high to have two men following her (I don't recall if a separate pair followed Jimmy when Kim and Jimmy were apart).

Mike said the chance was a thousand to one Lalo would reach out to them, which doesn't make sense unless he's got such unlimited resources that using two or more men full time on Kim and Jimmy isn't a waste.

Wendy spotted the men following Kim. If Wendy can, Lalo can. So even though Kim didn't know that the men following her had been pulled off to watch Gus, she had no reason to believe they couldn't be avoided.

After what Kim and Jimmy did to Howard, it's reasonable to expect Howard would confront them.

The easiest place for Howard to confront them is Kim and Jimmy's place.

The easiest place for Lalo to "reach out" to Kim and Jimmy is their place. As noted, he has before.

Does that mean Kim is legally responsible for Howard's death? No, but that doesn't absolve her.

If the gas company thought the chances of your house exploding were sufficiently high they had two technicians monitoring it full time, would you invite someone over? Or do something that would cause someone to stop by?

I once had a neighbor who was a victim of domestic violence and had a restraining order against her husband. One day she invited a friend to come over and help her paint the living room. Unexpectedly, her crazed, estranged husband violated the restraining order and came to her house with a gun. He shot her friend instead of her, and the friend died. Was that her fault for inviting her over? Obviously, she had no idea her husband would violate the restraining order and come over armed.

51 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I remember Patrick Fabian from his one-time appearance on NCIS, where he played an oily congressional aide. 

If J&K had not helped Lalo jump bail he would not have been free to murder Howard.  They are accessories-after-the-fact in the murder of Travel Wire Fred, and they have Howard's blood on their consciences, if not their hands.  

I see that too.  Kim, especially, will repress any feelings she might have about the wrongness of what they did.  

Kim seemed to have more regrets about the scams they pulled with Chuck before his death than Jimmy did. I think Howard’s death will affect both of them greatly. How that will affect their future choices, I don’t know.

Edited May 29, 2022 by Cinnabon

[PeterPirate]

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

After what Kim and Jimmy did to Howard, it's reasonable to expect Howard would confront them.

The easiest place for Howard to confront them is Kim and Jimmy's place.  

Indeed, J&K knew the person knocking on their door was Howard. 

Looking back, it was obvious from the social media promo photo, along with the photo of Patrick Fabian with blood in his hair, that Lalo was going to kill Howard in the condo.  The wine glasses indicated a celebration.  The flickering candle portended a death.  Reviewer Courtney was predicting that Lalo would go to see J&K since they were the only people he could contact in Albuquerque, plus they were his lawyers.  Before the episode aired I had these thoughts in mind, but I was so fixated on the idea of Howard reacting badly to the topical that I couldn't put two and two together.  Mebs.  

[JudyObscure]

16 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

If J&K had not helped Lalo jump bail he would not have been free to murder Howard.  They are accessories-after-the-fact in the murder of Travel Wire Fred, and they have Howard's blood on their consciences, if not their hands.  

Yes, in a sense they share guilt for every person Lalo has killed since they helped him go free, and that's quite a long list.

Even if they decide to give 100% of the blame on Lalo for Howard's death, they have to know that they alone are responsible for making his last day on earth horrible and humiliating.

[Cinnabon]

41 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

Yes, in a sense they share guilt for every person Lalo has killed since they helped him go free, and that's quite a long list.

Even if they decide to give 100% of the blame on Lalo for Howard's death, they have to know that they alone are responsible for making his last day on earth horrible and humiliating.

That part is 💯 true. 

[gallimaufry]

I think the nature and extent of their guilt is purposefully nebulous - I suspect there will be another line to cross in Jimmy's descent where a murder occurs directly on his instigation.

Incidentally, one thing that the twist about the PI clears up -- the show is so good at reusing small characters and one character actor that they talked on the commentary about being really pleased to be able to use was the PI in 301 and 302.  Therefore, I was surprised they didn't return to him for this season.  Of course, now it makes sense -- if Howard had just called Chuck's PI, Jimmy and Kim's plan would have been ruined.

[Tatum]

On 5/29/2022 at 10:28 AM, Milburn Stone said:

Why I feel like Patrick Fabian especially deserves all the awards is probably just because A) he doesn't get as much attention as other cast members, and B) he--as far as I'm concerned--came out of nowhere with this role. I just looked at the IMDB, and am astonished that he's done a ton of work since the early 90s. Yet I have seen none of it! Not one frame!

What?? You missed him as Professor Lasky in Saved by the Bell: the College Years? Where he had a brief romance with college student Kelly (who was his student at the time, not merely a student that just happened to attend where he taught)? Scandalous even for the 90s. I've seen him in bits and pieces- he seemed to mostly guest star on long running shows rather than have a leading role anywhere. He was the main character in The Last Exorcism which was actually a pretty good movie and he was excellent in it. Highly recommend.

[SoMuchTV]

23 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I did the same! I was actually shocked by his long resume. I shouldn't have been. It's just that, like you, it's kind of amazing that I haven't seen him in anything else. Well, actually, I have seen many of those shows, but I don't remember him.

It's true that Walter didn't kill those people, but it's likely they wouldn't have died if he hadn't let Jane die. And Howard wouldn't have died if J&K hadn't done their whole scam thing because Howard wouldn't have come over to their house. 

22 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I remember Patrick Fabian from his one-time appearance on NCIS, where he played an oily congressional aide. 

If J&K had not helped Lalo jump bail he would not have been free to murder Howard.  They are accessories-after-the-fact in the murder of Travel Wire Fred, and they have Howard's blood on their consciences, if not their hands.  

I see that too.  Kim, especially, will repress any feelings she might have about the wrongness of what they did.  

10 minutes ago, Tatum said:

What?? You missed him as Professor Lasky in Saved by the Bell: the College Years? Where he had a brief romance with college student Kelly (who was his student at the time, not merely a student that just happened to attend where he taught)? Scandalous even for the 90s. I've seen him in bits and pieces- he seemed to mostly guest star on long running shows rather than have a leading role anywhere. He was the main character in The Last Exorcism which was actually a pretty good movie and he was excellent in it. Highly recommend.

I apologize for taking this episode thread ever further off topic - if I could have found a thread for Cast in Other Roles or HH/Patrick Fabian I would have taken this there... but I just recently was able to watch Barry, and PF has a blink-or-you'll-miss-it scene in a 2019 episode as a character in a bad tv show (Space Dad!).

[Tatum]

I also don't necessarily follow J&K being to blame for Lalo killing Howard. I understand Howard was there to confront them over what they did, but you can go a long ways back with that. Also, I do find it a bit "Hollywood" that Lalo has been skulking around Albuquerque for a few days now at least and picked the minute Howard chose to pay a surprise visit. Also pretty sloppy writing that Jimmy just left the door unlocked, and I think most apartment doors automatically lock when you close them anyways. Forgivable plot contrivance in a lot of TV shows, but I have higher standards for this show.

ETA: I wonder if Kim will admit she knew Lalo was alive, to Jimmy, and how he will feel.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Tatum

[Bannon]

In 2004, automatically locking doors were definitely not the norm for Albuquerque, in either high end apartments or condos. Couldn't say now.

[Tatum]

22 minutes ago, Bannon said:

In 2004, automatically locking doors were definitely not the norm for Albuquerque, in either high end apartments or condos. Couldn't say now.

Really? That surprises me. I lived in apartments in MN and NE from 2002 to 2007, and it was just the standard. I remember locking myself out numerous times. Still then, quite a stroke of luck for Lalo coming around at just the right time.

ETA: I think it's weird Jimmy didn't press Kim a few episodes back when he noticed she put the stool against the door. She's been even more tightly wound than usual and Jimmy just shrugged it off.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Tatum

[Ailianna]

Every place I've ever lived that had automatically locking doors also has an easy way to disable that feature, so you don't lock yourself out. Everyone I know well enough to know their lock status flips that so they won't be locked out and paying money to get back in. This is 20+ years in NYC, NJ, NYS. 

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

I apologize for taking this episode thread ever further off topic - if I could have found a thread for Cast in Other Roles or HH/Patrick Fabian I would have taken this there... but I just recently was able to watch Barry, and PF has a blink-or-you'll-miss-it scene in a 2019 episode as a character in a bad tv show (Space Dad!).

I've watched Barry from the beginning, but I may have to rewatch that ep (or least part of it) to remind myself of Fabian's appearance.

[Starchild]

7 hours ago, Tatum said:

I also don't necessarily follow J&K being to blame for Lalo killing Howard. 

Directly to blame, no, that's all Lalo. But contributed to his death? For sure.

Wouldn't hold up in a court of law, but a civil suit?

4 hours ago, PeterPirate said:

I just re-watched, and I'm 95% sure Saul closed the door after Howard entered.  They didn't show it specifically, but Saul walked towards the door after Howard entered, and there is a clicking sound that is barely audible as Kim greets Howard.

I think he closed it (click), but didn't lock it. After all, he only expected Howard to speak his peace and then leave.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Starchild

[Ottis]

On 5/24/2022 at 9:17 AM, Bannon said:

Oh, I'm not saying Howard's murder is going to be connected to Kim and Saul. I'm saying looking at Howard's murder is going to nearly inevitably entail Kim and Saul's plot against Howard being discovered

I don't know why. Howard brought over wine to congratulate Jimmy and Kim. What a guy. Then the cartel killer that Jimmy had represented in the past and was believed to be dead showed up unexpectedly, and shot Howard. Why did he show up? To thank Jimmy. Why did he shoot Howard? Witness, wrong place, wrong time. Assuming Jimmy and Kim get rid of all the plot evidence against Howard, what connection is there?

The bigger issue, I think, will be maybe that Jimmy realizes Kim wasn't surprised when Lalo showed up. Not sure how it will, but she knew he was alive, and didn't tell Jimmy, and that will come back to bite her.

Well, I guess it already had. I mean, if you know Lalo is alive, why stay in the same apartment? I never understood that. She could have come up with any number of pretexes to move with Jimmy. Maybe Lalo found them, maybe not, but at least try.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Ottis

[Bannon]

15 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I don't know why. Howard brought over wine to congratulate Jimmy and Kim. What a guy. Then the cartel killer that Jimmy had represented in the past and was believed to be dead showed up unexpectedly, and shot Howard. Why did he show up? To thank Jimmy. Why did he shoot Howard? Witness, wrong place, wrong time. Assuming Jimmy and Kim get rid of all the plot evidence against Howard, what connection is there?

The bigger issue, I think, will be maybe that Jimmy realizes Kim wasn't surprised when Lalo showed up. Not sure how it will, but she knew he was alive, and didn't tell Jimmy, and that will come back to bite her.

Well, I guess it already had. I mean, if you know Lalo is alive, why stay in the same apartment? I never understood that. She could have come up with any number of pretexes to move with Jimmy. Maybe Lalo found them, maybe not, but at least try.

The senior partner of one of the state's largest law firms can't just disappear, or show up with bullet through the head, without the events of his last few days and weeks being closely examined. The fact that a scam was used so Howard would hire a phony PI to follow Saul would be discovered. The thread would unravel.

[Bannon]

20 minutes ago, Ottis said:

I don't know why. Howard brought over wine to congratulate Jimmy and Kim. What a guy. Then the cartel killer that Jimmy had represented in the past and was believed to be dead showed up unexpectedly, and shot Howard. Why did he show up? To thank Jimmy. Why did he shoot Howard? Witness, wrong place, wrong time. Assuming Jimmy and Kim get rid of all the plot evidence against Howard, what connection is there?

The bigger issue, I think, will be maybe that Jimmy realizes Kim wasn't surprised when Lalo showed up. Not sure how it will, but she knew he was alive, and didn't tell Jimmy, and that will come back to bite her.

Well, I guess it already had. I mean, if you know Lalo is alive, why stay in the same apartment? I never understood that. She could have come up with any number of pretexes to move with Jimmy. Maybe Lalo found them, maybe not, but at least try.

Also, if Saul and Kim want to continue working as lawyers, then Lalo can track them down in about 30 minutes. Moving doesn't accomplish anything.

[gallimaufry]

A few random weird thoughts:

1. Howard's skills at boxing... I know it would have ruined the tone and felt really weird but... looking back at that scene I kind of love the counter-factual where Howard sees the silencer being put on, puts two and two together and makes a sudden jab at Lalo.  Lalo would probably be taken by surprise and Howard might have been able to go for the weapon.  I guess they kind of played Lalo getting caught out already with Caspar and, besides, violence is not remotely Howard's go-to, boxing notwithstanding.  Still, it's a nice thought.

2.  Bob's heart attack was apparently during 608 in a scene with Rhea and Patrick.  Which means, unless there's a flashback, Patrick Fabian was playing a corpse.  Not only is that a really ghoulish scene for Bob to come back to but it also meant that Fabian would have had to do most of his final scenes and then wait weeks to come back and lie on the floor.

3.  How are they even going to get Howard's body out of there?  Tough ask to get him down flights of stairs and into a public car park with nobody noticing.  There's a rug in the room but I don't think it'll be big enough to do an "El Camino".  I can't imagine Lalo being in a rush to help out.

4. I think I figured out one reason why this scam didn't entertain me whereas the Mesa Verde one really did.  In both cases, they're making it personal against a good person for personal gain.  In both cases, it's a really ugly decision and acknowledged as such.  But in "Wexler v Goodman", you get to see Saul in all his glory completely unleash.  From the "I'm in the money" whistle to "imagine a world with me", we see the completely unleashed, shameless giant-slaying Saul.  Even the lead-up in 505 with the ways they're frustrating the start of the dig involve a lot of Saul's superweapon - his motormouth.  And of course the most beloved BB scenes such as Saul buying Jesse's house or explaining to Jesse about money laundering are where he gets to be really funny and verbose.  This plan didn't require any of that, save for a bit of fast-talking in 601.  There was a bit of physical humour in 604 which frankly I found more cringey than anything but he really doesn't get to use that superpower at all.  It's like seeing Sherlock Holmes solve a case without making a deduction or Jack Bauer stopping a terrorist by clicking on a computer -- something big is missing.  As the originator of the case, I don't know if Jimmy had the right to be in the room but I think it would have been so much better if he were there, even if he'd be only talking himself out of a jam.

[Ottis]

56 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The senior partner of one of the state's largest law firms can't just disappear, or show up with bullet through the head, without the events of his last few days and weeks being closely examined. The fact that a scam was used so Howard would hire a phony PI to follow Saul would be discovered. The thread would unravel.

Lots of assumptions there. Jimmy and Kim are the only ones who know what actually happened. That gives them the upper hand. Outside of them, at best you have some observations that Howard seemed manic or perhaps on drugs, with no actual proof. Cliff doesn't know anything besides Howard's ramblings. If anything, this gives Jimmy and Kim even *more* leeway in concocting their story. They could say *Howard* was interacting with cartels, for instance, due to his addiction. Rich lawyer wants good stuff. None of this means anything Jimmy and Kim were doing will be uncovered. It could, but doesn't mean it will.

53 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Also, if Saul and Kim want to continue working as lawyers, then Lalo can track them down in about 30 minutes. Moving doesn't accomplish anything.

That's why I posted "Maybe Lalo found them, maybe not. But at least try." Would a more secure location have helped? Maybe. Jimmy changed his name - could Kim come up with a reason to do the same? Maybe. One thing is for certain: If you don't do anything, Lalo knows exactly where you are and how to get in.

6 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

How are they even going to get Howard's body out of there?

Maybe they don't need to get the body out. See my earlier post. Or maybe Lalo helps them. On this show, moving bodies is just another day!

Edited May 31, 2022 by Ottis

[PeterPirate]

I think the most logical way to deal with Howard's body is to stage a suicide after Lalo leaves.  Take off the silencer, put a blank cartridge into the gun, put on gloves, put the gun in Howard's hand, point it at Howard's head, and pull the trigger.  Now Howard has gunpowder residue on his hand and his head.   

Maybe there needs to be some suspension of disbelief for K&J to get away with it.  But there is the difference between knowing and proving.  Regardless of how much detective work Cliff Main or anyone else does (and we will likely see the Kettlemans again to explain how Saul gets Lady Liberty), they may not be able to prove that J&K committed any crimes.  

[gallimaufry]

6 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I think the most logical way to deal with Howard's body is to stage a suicide after Lalo leaves.  Take off the silencer, put a blank cartridge into the gun, put on gloves, put the gun in Howard's hand, point it at Howard's head, and pull the trigger.  Now Howard has gunpowder residue on his hand and his head.   

Maybe there needs to be some suspension of disbelief for K&J to get away with it.  But there is the difference between knowing and proving.  Regardless of how much detective work Cliff Main or anyone else does (and we will likely see the Kettlemans again to explain how Saul gets Lady Liberty), they may not be able to prove that J&K committed any crimes.  

Surely anyone doing a post-mortem would find that he's been shot twice though?  Plus the blood splatter would be different.  I just can't see that working.

I like Ottis' idea of a near-truth but surely they'd identify "De Guzman's" fingerprints in the house.

Also, implicating Lalo in another crime isn't exactly going to burnish his Amigo de Cartel status.

Few possibilities...

What if Lalo has another plan for the body?  Is there a way for him to get it to the laundry somehow and then bring in the police?  Or if that's too tricky, at Pollos and use the subsequent police investigation as a distraction?  Still, I'm not sure Eladio would be sympathetic to a plan which uses the police in this way -- he wants Fring disciplined, not exposed, especially since his entire pipeline of meth north of the border now relies on him.  And of course, we know Hank was unaware of the laundromat in BB.

Or, perhaps the most likely: Lalo's usual solution (as in the bell story in 409, Pollos in 507 and what happened to the travelwire as the witness tells Mike in 506) is just to burn the place down so there's no reason to think he won't do the same here.  But would he move Howard first?

After a fire, even if Howard's body is found and identified, the only evidence would be the bullet hole.  The story would be plausible.  Howard came by with a bottle of whiskey, ranting about how they'd tried to hurt him somehow.  He looked bad.  His eyes were dilated.  He had a gun.  In the altercation, the whiskey bottle was smashed.  A candle was knocked over.  The fire spread quickly.  Howard panicked and shot himself.   Jimmy and Kim left, raised the alarm and called the fire service.  Any real evidence is burned away -- except for the gun of course.  I can't see Lalo wanting to lose his gun (and having the serial number presumably filed away would raise eyebrows unless it was too badly damaged in the fire to identify) but he probably can get his hands on plenty more. 

Burning down the building would give them an impetus to move into the Saul mansion from 601, bought using the Sandpiper settlement money.  

It also makes a grim bit of foreshadowing of Cliff's words to Jimmy: "Howard said you were a little eccentric - he didn't tell me you were a goddamn arsonist!"

[SimplexFish]

3 hours ago, Ottis said:

I don't know why. Howard brought over wine to congratulate Jimmy and Kim.

It wasn't wine and Howard explained why as soon as he walked in...

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

Lots of assumptions there. Jimmy and Kim are the only ones who know what actually happened. That gives them the upper hand. Outside of them, at best you have some observations that Howard seemed manic or perhaps on drugs, with no actual proof. Cliff doesn't know anything besides Howard's ramblings. If anything, this gives Jimmy and Kim even *more* leeway in concocting their story. They could say *Howard* was interacting with cartels, for instance, due to his addiction. Rich lawyer wants good stuff. None of this means anything Jimmy and Kim were doing will be uncovered. It could, but doesn't mean it will.

That's why I posted "Maybe Lalo found them, maybe not. But at least try." Would a more secure location have helped? Maybe. Jimmy changed his name - could Kim come up with a reason to do the same? Maybe. One thing is for certain: If you don't do anything, Lalo knows exactly where you are and how to get in.

Maybe they don't need to get the body out. See my earlier post. Or maybe Lalo helps them. On this show, moving bodies is just another day!

Howard's secretary can confirm that someone called HHM to change the phone number for the firm HHM used for investigations, that turned out to be a burner phone, that was used to call for a PI that Howard used, which resulted in weird pictures of Jimmy handing a frisbee to a guy (who is a UNM film student) with what looks like a fake mustache, that looks like a caricature of the mediator's mustache. A cellphone dump of Saul and Jimmy would place both of them close to the park where that picture was taken, at the same time, and given the murder victim, yeah, Saul and Kim's cellphones would be dumped. 

This isn't like trying to crack The Zodiac Killer. It wouldn't be super easy to convict Saul or Kim of anything, but there would be plenty for them to have their plot unraveled.

[SimplexFish]

2 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

2 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

2.  Bob's heart attack was apparently during 608 in a scene with Rhea and Patrick.  Which means, unless there's a flashback, Patrick Fabian was playing a corpse.  Not only is that a really ghoulish scene for Bob to come back to but it also meant that Fabian would have had to do most of his final scenes and then wait weeks to come back and lie on the floor.

Who said Howard was alive during the heart attack scene? Could have been Saul and Kim with the dead body and perhaps trying to move it and Bob over exerted himself in the scene? 

Edited May 31, 2022 by SimplexFish

[Bannon]

2 hours ago, Ottis said:

Lots of assumptions there. Jimmy and Kim are the only ones who know what actually happened. That gives them the upper hand. Outside of them, at best you have some observations that Howard seemed manic or perhaps on drugs, with no actual proof. Cliff doesn't know anything besides Howard's ramblings. If anything, this gives Jimmy and Kim even *more* leeway in concocting their story. They could say *Howard* was interacting with cartels, for instance, due to his addiction. Rich lawyer wants good stuff. None of this means anything Jimmy and Kim were doing will be uncovered. It could, but doesn't mean it will.

That's why I posted "Maybe Lalo found them, maybe not. But at least try." Would a more secure location have helped? Maybe. Jimmy changed his name - could Kim come up with a reason to do the same? Maybe. One thing is for certain: If you don't do anything, Lalo knows exactly where you are and how to get in.

Maybe they don't need to get the body out. See my earlier post. Or maybe Lalo helps them. On this show, moving bodies is just another day!

There is no way for Saul and Kim to continue to work as lawyers, without Lalo being able to physically attack them, at a time of his choosing. They can't hide, nor are they rich enough to really protect themselves, from violent  criminals who have access to millions of dollars.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Bannon

[Bannon]

Maybe Saul and Kim's plot coming unraveled will play no role in the end of this story, and if that's the case, it won't really harm my appreciation of the show. I'll just see it as a bit of a plotting misstep, which is how I saw the simulteaneous witness assassinations in multiple prisons, in BB. Hey, nobody's perfect.

[Cinnabon]

6 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Maybe Saul and Kim's plot coming unraveled will play no role in the end of this story, and if that's the case, it won't really harm my appreciation of the show. I'll just see it as a bit of a plotting misstep, which is how I saw the simulteaneous witness assassinations in multiple prisons, in BB. Hey, nobody's perfect.

I’m not sure if any detective would even believe the sheer amount of planning and crazy that went into their elaborate Howard plot. Cliff likely doesn’t think so,  even though Howard accused them. The only person who would’ve believed they could and would was Chuck.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Cinnabon

[peeayebee]

2 hours ago, gallimaufry said:

2.  Bob's heart attack was apparently during 608 in a scene with Rhea and Patrick. 

I think it happened betw scenes in a trailer. IIRC, the three of them were there, with Bob was on an exercise bike. Correct me if I'm remembering wrong.

[Tatum]

4 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I’m not sure if any detective would even believe the sheer amount of planning and crazy that went into their elaborate Howard plot. Cliff likely doesn’t think they plotted all of it, even though Howard accused them. The only person who would’ve believed they could and would was Chuck.

I know it's just a TV show, but I think this latest plan was really over the top with everything that came together in a multi phase plan. I mean, working backwards, I can see someone saying wait, first they scammed their way into the country club and managed to slip an envelope of coke into a locker you were using (which how would they even know what locker you had), then they convinced a former client to come in and say you were using when you defended them, despite your firm managing to get them a very good plea deal, and then somehow they stole your car, pushed a prostitute out of it, and they did all this knowing you would use your firm's PI to follow him, which by then they had tricked your assistant into changing the number as their number, the PI was in on it, and gave you staged photos laced with some drug that would make your pupils dialate, then switched the photos out all so you'd make a fool of yourself during mediation? I mean, that sounds completely insane. Poor Howard.

[Irlandesa]

46 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I think it happened betw scenes in a trailer. IIRC, the three of them were there, with Bob was on an exercise bike. Correct me if I'm remembering wrong.

You are correct.  Knowing that gave me a tiny bit of false hope that he wouldn't die at the end of 7 but alas...

Edited May 31, 2022 by Irlandesa

[Cinnabon]

14 minutes ago, Tatum said:

I know it's just a TV show, but I think this latest plan was really over the top with everything that came together in a multi phase plan. I mean, working backwards, I can see someone saying wait, first they scammed their way into the country club and managed to slip an envelope of coke into a locker you were using (which how would they even know what locker you had), then they convinced a former client to come in and say you were using when you defended them, despite your firm managing to get them a very good plea deal, and then somehow they stole your car, pushed a prostitute out of it, and they did all this knowing you would use your firm's PI to follow him, which by then they had tricked your assistant into changing the number as their number, the PI was in on it, and gave you staged photos laced with some drug that would make your pupils dialate, then switched the photos out all so you'd make a fool of yourself during mediation? I mean, that sounds completely insane. Poor Howard.

Exactly. The details and planning it took for the long con were unbelievable. Kim couldn’t have done it on her own because Jimmy knows all of the tricks and has the “right” contacts, lol. Cliff only knows what Howard accused them of, and of course they set him up too. Would a detective really go down this convoluted path to investigate the paranoid theories (based only on Cliff’s and Howard’s estranged wife’s stories)?

[Tatum]

7 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Exactly. The details and planning it took for the long con were unbelievable. Kim couldn’t have done it on her own because Jimmy knows all of the tricks and has the “right” contacts, lol. Cliff only knows what Howard accused them of, and of course they set him up too. Would a detective really go down this convoluted path to investigate the paranoid theories (based only on Cliff’s and Howard’s estranged wife’s stories)?

The only real issue I could see is if he is reported missing, or turns up dead, if any police retrace his last few days, they would be able to verify that one reliable witness reported seeing him throw a prostitute out of his car at the exact time a therapist confirmed he had an appointment. That's not enough to implicate J&K, but it might be enough to get police looking a little closer, and Jimmy did leave quite a few breadcrumbs in his early Phase so Howard could "catch" him. But clearly this does not happen, as Saul is still licensed to practice law in BB

[Eulipian 5k]

On 5/29/2022 at 10:40 AM, peeayebee said:

how different would Jimmy have been if Kim hadn't pushed for the burning down of Howard? Jimmy didn't want to do it. He did it for her.

Jimmy was the one sky-hooking bowling balls onto the Namast3 mobile and sending hookers to his lunch meetings; and he did that without telling Kim. He hadn't told her about the Liability Insurance part, which seriously damaged HHM, and  precipitated Chuck's suicide. Jimmy has been trolling HHM since he put the Jimmy McGill, "Hamlindigo" billboards right at the exit of Howard's daily commute. He kept trolling HHM after Chuck's death; and they were waiting for Howard to show up "screaming in agony" as they  burned HHM down. That visit was supposed to be the coup de grace, leading to more sexy times for JK, 'til Lalo showed up with the cock-block.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

I’m not sure if any detective would even believe the sheer amount of planning and crazy that went into their elaborate Howard plot. Cliff likely doesn’t think so,  even though Howard accused them. The only person who would’ve believed they could and would was Chuck.

When very important people either vanish, or turn up with a bullet through his head, the fact that he was using a supposed PI, who was contacted through a burner number that was planted at HHM, in the last few weeks before Howard's death, would be looked at, hard. Which mean that Jimmy would be looked at hard, given the weird pictures of Jimmy in the park, supposedly given to Howard by the PI. Which means Kim gets looked at hard. Which means phone dumps for both. Now we have Jimmy and Kim being together at a park where the pictures were taken, being together where Howard was supposedly shoving a woman out of a car.   It goes on and on. The way that Howard was killed just causes lots of problems.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Bannon

[Ottis]

1 hour ago, SimplexFish said:

It wasn't wine and Howard explained why as soon as he walked in...

You are confusing two different parts of my post. The "I don't know why" was a direct response to the post I had quoted, that stated Jimmy and Kim's plot would definitely now come unraveled. It wasn't about why Howard came over. As for wine not wine, does it matter? The point was he came over to congratulate them and wine/bourbon/scotch is what you do that with, and he also came over to tell them he knew what they did.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

There is no way for Saul and Kim to continue to work as lawyers, without Lalo being able to physically attack them, at a time of his choosing.

Gus is proof that this assumption isn't true. At least so far.

26 minutes ago, Tatum said:

That's not enough to implicate J&K, but it might be enough to get police looking a little closer, and Jimmy did leave quite a few breadcrumbs in his early Phase so Howard could "catch" him. But clearly this does not happen, as Saul is still licensed to practice law in BB

Exactly. We can fan wank that the PI talks, or the film crew, or whatever. But the show as presented does not indicate that Lalo shooting Howard will implicate Kim and Jimmy. And as you note, we see Saul in BB, so ...

33 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When very important people either vanish, or turn up with a bullet through his head, the fact that he was using a supposed PI, who was contacted through a burner number that was planted at HHM, in the last few weeks before Howard's death, would be looked at, hard.

And who knows this? Only Kim, Jimmy ... and Howard. Anyone else who heard it, or parts of it, thinks it was the rantings of someone with issues. Which is probably how Kim and Jimmy will spin the dead body, is my guess. So no reason to assume any of that will be looked at by police.

[gallimaufry]

27 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When very important people either vanish, or turn up with a bullet through his head, the fact that he was using a supposed PI, who was contacted through a burner number that was planted at HHM, in the last few weeks before Howard's death, would be looked at, hard. Which mean that Jimmy would be looked at hard, given the weird pictures of Jimmy in the park, supposedly given to Howard by the PI. Which means Kim gets looked at hard. Which means phone dumps for both. Now we have Jimmy and Kim being together at a park where the pictures were taken, being together where Howard was supposedly shoving a woman out of a car.   It goes on and on. The way that Howard was killed just causes lots of problems.

Not sure in 2004 there'd be location data from phones in the same way but I don't know.

I guess it comes down to how deeply they want to dig.  I would assume HHM has security camera footage somewhere in the building so they must be able to find and ID the fake PI.  They've also got a strong chance of identifying the guy in the photograph since if they ask around at the only dark rooms in ABQ they're likely to find someone who recognises him from the film crew and can chase him back to Jimmy.

But it would be a tricky case to build.  I expect there'll be a Cassandra, like Chuck and Howard previously, who is convinced that Jimmy was involved.  But it will hit knowing/proving and vanish into smoke, especially if Jimmy and Kim go into self-defence mode and have one of their elaborate smoke screens.

[Neiman]

47 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When very important people either vanish, or turn up with a bullet through his head, the fact that he was using a supposed PI, who was contacted through a burner number that was planted at HHM, in the last few weeks before Howard's death, would be looked at, hard. Which mean that Jimmy would be looked at hard, given the weird pictures of Jimmy in the park, supposedly given to Howard by the PI. Which means Kim gets looked at hard. Which means phone dumps for both. Now we have Jimmy and Kim being together at a park where the pictures were taken, being together where Howard was supposedly shoving a woman out of a car.   It goes on and on. The way that Howard was killed just causes lots of problems.

That’s assuming there’s a dead body. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s presumed Howard just went away for a while to get some R&R. It’s not like anyone, including his wife, would be surprised or would necessarily go looking for him. 

[Bannon]

12 minutes ago, Ottis said:

You are confusing two different parts of my post. The "I don't know why" was a direct response to the post I had quoted, that stated Jimmy and Kim's plot would definitely now come unraveled. It wasn't about why Howard came over. As for wine not wine, does it matter? The point was he came over to congratulate them and wine/bourbon/scotch is what you do that with, and he also came over to tell them he knew what they did.

Gus is proof that this assumption isn't true. At least so far.

Exactly. We can fan wank that the PI talks, or the film crew, or whatever. But the show as presented does not indicate that Lalo shooting Howard will implicate Kim and Jimmy. And as you note, we see Saul in BB, so ...

And who knows this? Only Kim, Jimmy ... and Howard. Anyone else who heard it, or parts of it, thinks it was the rantings of someone with issues. Which is probably how Kim and Jimmy will spin the dead body, is my guess. So no reason to assume any of that will be looked at by police.

Howard's secretary knows that somebody called, identified himself or herself as representing the PI firm that HHM usually uses, to tell HHM that the PI firm was using a new number. That number is going to a burner. This would be a matter of intense examination in the investigation into the murder of an important person.

1 minute ago, Neiman said:

That’s assuming there’s a dead body. I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s presumed Howard just went away for a while to get some R&R. It’s not like anyone, including his wife, would be surprised or would necessarily go looking for him. 

If the senior partner at one of a state's largest law firms simply vanishes, the investigation is going to be just as energetic.

[Bannon]

21 minutes ago, Ottis said:

You are confusing two different parts of my post. The "I don't know why" was a direct response to the post I had quoted, that stated Jimmy and Kim's plot would definitely now come unraveled. It wasn't about why Howard came over. As for wine not wine, does it matter? The point was he came over to congratulate them and wine/bourbon/scotch is what you do that with, and he also came over to tell them he knew what they did.

Gus is proof that this assumption isn't true. At least so far.

Exactly. We can fan wank that the PI talks, or the film crew, or whatever. But the show as presented does not indicate that Lalo shooting Howard will implicate Kim and Jimmy. And as you note, we see Saul in BB, so ...

And who knows this? Only Kim, Jimmy ... and Howard. Anyone else who heard it, or parts of it, thinks it was the rantings of someone with issues. Which is probably how Kim and Jimmy will spin the dead body, is my guess. So no reason to assume any of that will be looked at by police.

Gus is proof of what? That a violent criminal with access to gigantic resources can protect himself from the likes of Lalo, especially if the head of a cartel, that Lalo belongs to, has told Lalo that Gus is not to be attacked? What does that have to Saul and Kim?

13 minutes ago, gallimaufry said:

Not sure in 2004 there'd be location data from phones in the same way but I don't know.

I guess it comes down to how deeply they want to dig.  I would assume HHM has security camera footage somewhere in the building so they must be able to find and ID the fake PI.  They've also got a strong chance of identifying the guy in the photograph since if they ask around at the only dark rooms in ABQ they're likely to find someone who recognises him from the film crew and can chase him back to Jimmy.

But it would be a tricky case to build.  I expect there'll be a Cassandra, like Chuck and Howard previously, who is convinced that Jimmy was involved.  But it will hit knowing/proving and vanish into smoke, especially if Jimmy and Kim go into self-defence mode and have one of their elaborate smoke screens.

When important people are shot in the head, or simply vanish, people who have the job of investigating crimes tend to dig very deeply.

[Neiman]

42 minutes ago, Bannon said:

If the senior partner at one of a state's largest law firms simply vanishes, the investigation is going to be just as energetic.

Kim and Jimmy could easily come up with a story to imply he didn't simply vanish.  It would be plausible to say he's taking an extended vacation given the recent fiasco, and I doubt anyone would question that.  Kim and Jimmy can be very convincing, as we've seen.  Sending Howard on a "vacation" would be easy compared to what they've done recently.

[gallimaufry]

28 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When important people are shot in the head, or simply vanish, people who have the job of investigating crimes tend to dig very deeply.

I agree but as we saw with Hank, whose investigations were arguably even more consequential than a one-off suspicious death, budgets, time and human error can all factor in -- plus, most crucially, the need to build a case that will win at trial.

Howard was seen with cocaine, multiple people can attest to hearing rumours about its use, his partner committed suicide just over a year ago, he had struggled with debt and marital estrangement, multiple people saw him with dilated eyes and making crazy allegations.  Occam's Razor suggests a logical explanation that would at least sow reasonable doubt in the minds of a jury.

Now there may be some evidence of some funny business with the lawyers pranking Howard.  Perhaps Jimmy and Kim say they got wind of him harassing them -- calling him out to a boxing ring and trying to get him to fight, that kind of thing.  So they play a prank to get their own back and when they saw the investigator posed for some deliberately daft images.  How Howard mistook a guy in his 20s in sports gear with a ridiculous fake moustache for a respected judge... well, who can say down what routes the devil's dandruff beckons.

It's not satisfactory.  But it's not criminal.

They might even be able to establish that Howard had an alibi for the hit and run.  And that Kim was there.  But how do you prove who drove the car?

They could even position Jimmy at the same country club and, at a real stretch, even in the same locker room on the day that Cliff found the drugs.  But it's all hugely circumstantial.  

As long as Jimmy and Kim can handle the crime scene right and have a good story, it should be possible to muddy the waters to the extent that it would be simply too time-consuming and uncertain to bring a case that would remotely stand up in court.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

Surely anyone doing a post-mortem would find that he's been shot twice though?  

Hence my suggestion that the second shot use a blank cartridge.  Which, of course, Lalo is smart enough to carry with him at all times just in case he needs to fake a suicide.   

[Starchild]

Blanks at close range can still do damage, more than just powder burns. Just ask Jon-Erik Hexum. Oh wait, you can't

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Starchild said:

Blanks at close range can still do damage, more than just powder burns. 

Sure.  But would that damage appear suspicious to a medical examiner, since Howard already had an entrance wound?  

1 hour ago, gallimaufry said:

I agree but as we saw with Hank, whose investigations were arguably even more consequential than a one-off suspicious death, budgets, time and human error can all factor in -- plus, most crucially, the need to build a case that will win at trial.

Howard was seen with cocaine, multiple people can attest to hearing rumours about its use, his partner committed suicide just over a year ago, he had struggled with debt and marital estrangement, multiple people saw him with dilated eyes and making crazy allegations.  Occam's Razor suggests a logical explanation that would at least sow reasonable doubt in the minds of a jury.

Now there may be some evidence of some funny business with the lawyers pranking Howard.  Perhaps Jimmy and Kim say they got wind of him harassing them -- calling him out to a boxing ring and trying to get him to fight, that kind of thing.  So they play a prank to get their own back and when they saw the investigator posed for some deliberately daft images.  How Howard mistook a guy in his 20s in sports gear with a ridiculous fake moustache for a respected judge... well, who can say down what routes the devil's dandruff beckons.

It's not satisfactory.  But it's not criminal.

They might even be able to establish that Howard had an alibi for the hit and run.  And that Kim was there.  But how do you prove who drove the car?

They could even position Jimmy at the same country club and, at a real stretch, even in the same locker room on the day that Cliff found the drugs.  But it's all hugely circumstantial.  

As long as Jimmy and Kim can handle the crime scene right and have a good story, it should be possible to muddy the waters to the extent that it would be simply too time-consuming and uncertain to bring a case that would remotely stand up in court.

This really has me thinking that J&K are going to make it look like a deranged Howard killed himself in their home.  And they are going to get away with it, legally.  In the end, they are going to burn Howard's reputation to the ground.  

But every honest lawyer in New Mexico is going to know what criminals they really are, and they are going to despise him for it.  And it won't matter if there is a real Jimmy McGill inside Saul Goodman that wants to escape like supersaturated carbon dioxide molecules in water.  The spinning can that is his persona as The Criminal lawyer will force the Jimmy part to remain inside Saul. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by PeterPirate