S02.E09: Hide and Seek

[Llywela]

Everyone seems really hung up on Picard's psych evaluations. Star Trek has a long and storied history of officers with past trauma! Picard is 100 years old at this point, it's been 90 years since his mother died. He always knew the bald facts of what happened. It seems safe to say that both he and Starfleet HR were satisfied that he'd come to terms with his mother's death - and in a sense they were right, he's had a long and successful career, it's not like he's been secretly crippled by it this whole time. It was a traumatic incident in his childhood that helped to shape his personality, but it hasn't been the albatross around his neck some here seem to think. He is remembering it in more detail now because it has been stirred up by Q's shenanigans, forcing him to confront the ways in which the incident shaped him.

As for curing male pattern baldness, Gene Roddenberry was asked about that when Stewart was first cast, and his response was that in the 24th century humans have evolved past caring if someone is bald. Why 'cure' what isn't a problem?

We have been told earlier this season that Yvette was resisting treatment for her illness - just as Raffi in S1 chose to indulge in her addictions rather than accept treatment for them. Star Trek has always emphasised the right of the individual to choose.

Edited May 2, 2022 by Llywela

[Zonk]

"We need to get to the other side of the wineyard to take back the ship!" "Okay, should we just beam there?" "Nah, too easy. Let's split up so an army of Borg has the opportunity to pick us off one by one!"

Maybe somebody should have told Soong what the Borg really are and that the only future humanity would have, with him helping them, would be assimilation into the collective. That that would be his legacy. But nope, that would make too much sense. (that it did pan out differently in the end doesn't really matter)

I have to say though, I really liked the scene between Jurati and the Queen. I'm not the biggest fan of turning the Borg from something really alien, an unknowable collective, to a one woman show, but that was already mostly done in the TNG movies and Voyager. With the state that the Borg are, this was nicely done. Exploring the psychology of the queen, getting her to see better paths. That seems like something you'd see in a Star Trek Show. Also really well acted. On both parts. I really could have done with more of that throughout the season and less of retconing Picards childhood.

Then the ending was pretty damn dumb again. Seven and Raphy tell the other group that the Borg queen is taking the ship and they are all like "k, that's nice." When the reaction should have been "Wtf?! We have to stop her!". Because nobody had told them yet about the queens change of heart.

I guess we now know who the Borg queen from episode one was and why they suspiciously wouldn't show her face though. You'd think that she would have slightly better social skills, with her being half Jurati though. I mean not massively better, but at least better than just beaming onto the ship and trying to assimilate the data. Had it not been for Q, everybody would be dead now, including her. That seems like really contrived writing in hindsight.

On 4/28/2022 at 8:45 PM, salaydouk said:

Yes and no, I think... When they were showing what happened with his mother in reverse Picard stated, " I used to imagine seeing her older, offering me a cup of tea."  Which seems to imply that they acknowledge the scene in "Where No One Has Gone Before" but tweaking from what we assumed was an actual memory of an event to a memory from his life where he was imagining his mother.  So is it or isn't it a retcon? I think they split the finest hair possible, because IMO it is a tossup.  

It's certainly a retcon. Retcon means "retroactive continuity". That's what this is. The only question is if it's a good one or a bad one, if it's believeable or not. I guess you have to decide for yourself.

On 4/29/2022 at 5:45 AM, Llywela said:

Picard's brother was away at school at the time of this particular memory, we were told that earlier in the season. He was a few years older, would have been in his late teens at the time. Although the flashbacks have been spread through the season they all represent a single day in young Jean Luc's life. His brother wasn't there that day.

When were we told where his brother was? I just remember speculation that he might be at school in multiple episode threads here. Are you sure you aren't thinking of those?

On 4/29/2022 at 5:45 AM, Llywela said:

"Where No One Has Gone Before" was not retconned. The vision Picard saw of his mother in that episode was just that, a vision, and he referenced it in this episode.

That's still a retcon.

I think a lot of people here think it's only a retcon if the writers change the past badly. The opposite is the case. A retcon is supposed to be seamless. If writers change the past badly it's usually just called a hack job.

On 4/30/2022 at 2:57 PM, Llywela said:

Yes, I'm sure. Q flat out told Picard that he still has a synth body because General Picard was also a synth.

Which makes no sense, but I already ranted about the in the episode 1 thread.

20 hours ago, millennium said:

On the other hand, they apparently haven't been able to cure male pattern baldness in the 24th century either.

Roddenberry's explaination was that in the 24th they wouldn't care about baldness.

I think they'd very much still care about debilitating depression though. So not sure why that isn't cured at that point.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Zonk said:

I think they'd very much still care about debilitating depression though. So not sure why that isn't cured at that point.

TOS: Criminal insanity was cured / fixed [Whom Gods Destroy]

 

 

 

[salaydouk]

2 hours ago, Zonk said:

It's certainly a retcon. Retcon means "retroactive continuity". That's what this is. The only question is if it's a good one or a bad one, if it's believeable or not. I guess you have to decide for yourself.

When were we told where his brother was? I just remember speculation that he might be at school in multiple episode threads here. Are you sure you aren't thinking of those?

That's still a retcon.

I think a lot of people here think it's only a retcon if the writers change the past badly. The opposite is the case. A retcon is supposed to be seamless. If writers change the past badly it's usually just called a hack job.

Which makes no sense, but I already ranted about the in the episode 1 thread.

Yeah I am in the camp that they retcon'ed "Where No On Has Gone Before" as well.  But I can' totally see the otherside as well. 

Regarding my previous post and the La Sirena being in Confederation bodies and not their own, which of course does belong in the 2.02 episode thread.  Since I think it is still relevant here due to the events of this episode. I have been ruminating on it and I am not sure that is the case.  In that episode the BQ was adamant that the timeline had been corrupted - that she could not find the collective and she was expect them to be there.  This would seem to imply that Q altered timeline in 2024 himself but insured that unaltered personalities of the La Sirena crew were placed into the corrupted timeline.  So and perhaps I am splitting hairs with what was posted up stream, but I don't think the Confederation Timeline existed at all - that it was never existed/ran parallel to the Prime Timeline - at least up to the point that Q created it.  So Seven doesn't have implants because she was never assimilated and Rios doesn't have a tattoo because the conditions for why he had it in Prime Timeline perhaps never existed.  But now that Q has created the Confederation Timeline and with Borgati basically hinting that both Timelines need to now exist - via the 2 Renee comment and we have seen the Borg ship with a different type of Queen come through a Space/Time Rift - the only questions in my mind are if the La Sirena crew gets the Timeline back to normal and if they can go back, are they going to have to go back to the 25th Century Confederation Timeline before returning to the Prime Timeline, if they will still exist in both Timelines( which I doubt since Annika now has implants) and if not then that would create huge paradoxes in both Timelines, ie no Rios to be Captain or no Annika to be President, and how they will get back since Q is now powerless.   

Still ruminating...

Edited May 2, 2022 by salaydouk

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Zonk said:

When were we told where his brother was? I just remember speculation that he might be at school in multiple episode threads here. Are you sure you aren't thinking of those?

No, I'm not confusing speculation with what happens on-screen. Yvette mentions it in one of the very early flashbacks.

It's in 2.01, in fact, the first flashback of all, which is why hardly anyone noticed it. I looked it up. The quote goes:

Yvette: And you've never seen skies like this at night, I promise you. There's magic here. Your father can root around out there in the dirt while your brother toils away at school. This can be our place, yours and mine. We'll clear out the vines. We can even paint on these windows.

Looking at that quote again, it sounds as if the family had only just moved to the chateau, which is interesting.

[millennium]

2 hours ago, paigow said:

TOS: Criminal insanity was cured / fixed [Whom Gods Destroy]

I thought of that, too, but can't recall an episode dealing with depression.   Spock messes with Kirk's mind "In City On the Edge of Forever," to alleviate his grief, mind-melding and whispering "Forget ..."   The first time I saw it, I thought, "Neat ending."  Now it strikes me as a grotesque violation.   What gave Spock the right to rob Kirk of his memories/emotions re: Edith?   And what would be the ramifications of diluting -- or even deleting -- a starship captain's first-contact experience with one of the most powerful beings the crew has met in outer space thus far? (The Guardian)

This plot device -- selective editing of emotional pain -- was revisited in the fifth Star Trek movie.   Sybok offers to swap out Kirk's emotional baggage for bliss or whatever, but Kirk growls "I don't want my pain taken away! I need my pain!" (hear that, Spock?)

In both situations, however, the emotional repairs were effected through telepathic/mystical means courtesy of the Sarek boys, not by therapy or medical treatment.

 

Edited May 2, 2022 by millennium

[Ceindreadh]

22 minutes ago, millennium said:

I thought of that, too, but can't recall an episode dealing with depression.   Spock messes with Kirk's mind "In City On the Edge of Forever," to alleviate his grief, mind-melding and whispering "Forget ..."   The first time I saw it, I thought, "Neat ending."  Now it strikes me as a grotesque violation.   What gave Spock the right to rob Kirk of his memories/emotions re: Edith?   And what would be the ramifications of diluting -- or even deleting -- a starship captain's first-contact experience with one of the most powerful beings the crew has met in outer space thus far? (The Guardian)

 

 

IIRC, it wasn't the memories of Edith Keeler that Spock took away, it was that of Miramanee in 'The Paradise Syndrome'.  Kirk was lost on a planet, had amnesia and fell in love with her over the course of a few months only for her to die just as he was rescued. 

[paigow]

11 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

IIRC, it wasn't the memories of Edith Keeler that Spock took away, it was that of Miramanee in 'The Paradise Syndrome'.  Kirk was lost on a planet, had amnesia and fell in love with her over the course of a few months only for her to die just as he was rescued. 

Spock did it to erase Rayna / Reena [Hot android built by Flint/ DaVinci/ Brahms]

Edited May 2, 2022 by paigow

[millennium]

9 minutes ago, paigow said:

Spock did it to erase Rayna [Hot android built by Flint/ DaVinci/ Brahms]

 

I stand corrected.    Crazy, though, when you think how many times women met a bad end after falling for James T. Kirk.

* How could I have made that mistake?  City ended with Kirk's famous line "Let's get the hell out of here."

Edited May 2, 2022 by millennium

[paigow]

3 minutes ago, millennium said:

 

I stand corrected.    Crazy, though, when you think how many times women met a bad end after falling for James T. Kirk.

One of the few that ended up OK was Mirror!Marlena!Moreau - she was a sex slave that Prime!Kirk convinced to ally with Mirror!Spock so they could reform the Empire. Of course, when Prime!Kirk got home, he started hitting on Prime!Moreau...  

[ML89]

17 minutes ago, millennium said:

I stand corrected.    Crazy, though, when you think how many times women met a bad end after falling for James T. Kirk.

Cartwright Syndrome (although you should never fall for a son of Lorne Greene in ANY universe!)

[tennisgurl]

I don't get why Starfleet didn't allow Seven to join, even after she was basically Starfleet when she was with Voyager all those years. They were apparently sponsoring that Borg Cube experiment that poor Hugh was running, and while they were not thrilled about letting Picard in after he was assimilated, they still did. I guess because Picard is a well known Starfleet hero while Seven was this strange Borg woman from outside of the Alpha Quadrant? Because Picard was only assimilated for a little bit, while Seven was assimilated for most of her life? At least it sounds like Janeway fought for her, and we know what a hardass she can be, must have been a real fight before Seven decided to walk away. 

Its not that I dislike this Picard backstory, or the idea of diving further into the Picards troubled family history, I feel terrible for him, but it all reeks of retcon to me. Even beyond the fact that this was obviously never part of what the TNG writers had in mind for him, we have already explored so much of Picard's backstory it feels weird that none of this has come up yet. I guess they are implying that Picard blocked a lot of this out, but with the number of times Picard has explored his past and the past of his family, its weird that its never come up before, even the tiniest mention of his mom even beyond her death. Nothing when he time traveled back to his past as a dumb rookie who got stabbed in the heart, nothing when he went home to visit Robert, who is weirdly absent throughout all of this, or the multiple times he went to therapy or when his remaining family died and he was heartbroken over it (a plot that I hated anyway) its so weird that its never come up. Robert never brought it up while they were fighting over how Robert had to take over everything because their dad was busy, its just weird and obviously something that they came up with now, that only barley fits into established cannon. I also find it sad that, even in the future, we haven't made a lot of strides when it comes to mental health. The Federation can cure people when they mutate into salamander people (thanks Voyager) but cant do anything to help a chemical imbalance in the brain? 

I have enjoyed a lot of aspects of this season, but that's kind of the problem. This season has so much going on that I feel like I enjoy certain certain subplots and ideas individually, there are so many parts of the season that it feels disjointed. Its hopefully going to all come together, but I just feel like there is way too much going on. Every one of these plots, the gang galivanting around the past, the bad future, the Borg Queen, the Soong clone club, they could all be an entire seasons arc, but everything together is too much. Last season had a lot going on too, but at least most of it was connected. 

I liked seeing hologram Elnor, but it mostly made me sad that he hasn't been around this season. I have no idea why he was written out this season, Elnor and his absolute candor and sweet summer child nature would have been hilarious in 2024. Its not like his ears would be that hard to hide (Spock managed) so why not bring him along? Did this season need even more angst? Its similiar to problems I had last season, they are way to quick to kill off/write off interesting characters. I would have easily taken more Elnor over some of the subplots, like Rios and his lady friend, which is fine, but its an inevitably doomed relationship so I find myself wishing we could move past it and get to the good stuff. Or just have my favorite Romulan back. 

Edited May 2, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Llywela]

8 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I don't get why Starfleet didn't allow Seven to join, even after she was basically Starfleet when she was with Voyager all those years. They were apparently sponsoring that Borg Cube experiment that poor Hugh was running, and while they were not thrilled about letting Picard in after he was assimilated, they still did. I guess because Picard is a well known Starfleet hero while Seven was this strange Borg woman from outside of the Alpha Quadrant? Because Picard was only assimilated for a little bit, while Seven was assimilated for most of her life? At least it sounds like Janeway fought for her, and we know what a hardass she can be, must have been a real fight before Seven decided to walk away. 

I have enjoyed a lot of aspects of this season, but that's kind of the problem. This season has so much going on that I feel like I enjoy certain certain subplots and ideas individually, there are so many parts of the season that it feels disjointed. Its hopefully going to all come together, but I just feel like there is way too much going on. Every one of these plots, the gang galivanting around the past, the bad future, the Borg Queen, the Soong clone club, they could all be an entire seasons arc, but everything together is too much. Last season had a lot going on too, but at least most of it was connected. 

I liked seeing hologram Elnor, but it mostly made me sad that he hasn't been around this season. I have no idea why he was written out this season, Elnor and his absolute candor and sweet summer child nature would have been hilarious in 2024. Its not like his ears would be that hard to hide (Spock managed) so why not bring him along? Did this season need even more angst? Its similiar to problems I had last season, they are way to quick to kill off/write off interesting characters. I would have easily taken more Elnor over some of the subplots, like Rios and his lady friend, which is fine, but its an inevitably doomed relationship so I find myself wishing we could move past it and get to the good stuff. Or just have my favorite Romulan back. 

I do think that Seven is a very different case from Picard who was fully de-assimilated, retained no Borg implants, and has never referred to himself as Borg, which Seven emphatically did, usually at least once an episode. Even so, we see in episodes like TNG: "The Drumhead" and DS9: "Emissary", and arguably in Star Trek: First Contact, that there are people in Starfleet who do indeed hold Picard responsible, who resent him being able to resume his Starfleet career, and who believe him to be an "unstable element" - Starfleet Command wanted him kept out of any confrontation with the Borg in First Contact for that reason, and that was years after his assimilation and rehabilitation. In addition, Picard already had a long established Starfleet career and was rehabilitated in the 2360s; by the late 2370s and early 2380s, after the Dominion War and around the time Voyager returned to the alpha quadrant, attitudes had started to change and the Federation was becoming more isolationist.

But we do know that Icheb was able to join Starfleet, despite also being a former Borg drone (almost, nearly, kind of). In his case, he was very young, still malleable, and had never really been a proper member of the Collective, all of which probably played in his favour, whereas Seven had a long history of butting heads with her captain and had been a drone for 20 years, had no memory of her life before the Borg. That said, we don't really know the circumstances or what was said, only that she applied, Starfleet were hesitant, Janeway went in to bat for her, but Seven decided it wasn't worth fighting for and withdrew. It could be that Janeway's continued pressure was the reason Icheb then got in - it could be that they'd have backed down for Seven too, if she'd stuck it out, but pulling out when she met resistance was her choice.

I agree that the season feels rather less than the sum of its parts. I think it was badly, badly affected by the impacts of covid restrictions and changes in showrunner behind the scenes - Michael Chabon wrote a good few episodes for the season before moving on to another project, then his scripts were completely re-written by Terry Matalas, who showran the first few episodes of the season before handing over to Akiva Goldsman so he could focus on prepping season three. It all sounds like a huge mess, to be honest, and while I suspect the season will play a lot more smoothly when watched as a marathon rather than week-by-week, I feel like the characters have been very poorly served and at this stage nothing can redeem that. I am nervous about how the finale is going to play out as it really feels as if much of the cast is about to be shuffled unceremoniously off-screen ahead of the incoming guest stars of season three, and they deserve better than that.

[salaydouk]

11 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I don't get why Starfleet didn't allow Seven to join, even after she was basically Starfleet when she was with Voyager all those years. They were apparently sponsoring that Borg Cube experiment that poor Hugh was running, and while they were not thrilled about letting Picard in after he was assimilated, they still did. I guess because Picard is a well known Starfleet hero while Seven was this strange Borg woman from outside of the Alpha Quadrant? Because Picard was only assimilated for a little bit, while Seven was assimilated for most of her life? At least it sounds like Janeway fought for her, and we know what a hardass she can be, must have been a real fight before Seven decided to walk away. 

 

IMO, even if you throw out all the concerns about Seven being a fully assimilated Borg drone, and the trauma and the questions of loyalty that come with it - there would be issues for Starfleet around Seven's age and her behavior aboard Voyager after being de-assimilated from the Collective.  Going with the latter first, on Voyager she repeatedly displayed a superiority complex to her crewmates and at times blatant disrespect for and disregard for Janeway's orders. How she treated her crewmates reflects poorly on her future ability to work in and develop the necessary rapport for a cohesive functional military unit. Her blatant disregard for and not following her Captain's orders, regardless of what Janeway might have said otherwise, are HUGE red flags and flat out unacceptable.  So since past behavior informs future behavior, anyone looking at her application to join Starfleet would quite rightly balk.  Now you factor in her age there would be serious concerns around whether or not Starfleet would be able to "break" her of these habits.  But basically she screams BAD for any command to be able to maintain "good order and discipline."  

Also if you turn it on its head... Seven used to be an assimilated drone that followed commands/orders. She was then de-assimilated and became an independent individual with free will.  So think about the irony of this newly independent person exerting her free will to join an organization that would would required her to voluntarily give up her newly acquired free will and to accept the command/orders of those above her in rank.  Somehow, to me, that is a recipe for disaster!

2 hours ago, Llywela said:

 

I agree that the season feels rather less than the sum of its parts. I think it was badly, badly affected by the impacts of covid restrictions and changes in showrunner behind the scenes - Michael Chabon wrote a good few episodes for the season before moving on to another project, then his scripts were completely re-written by Terry Matalas, who showran the first few episodes of the season before handing over to Akiva Goldsman so he could focus on prepping season three. It all sounds like a huge mess, to be honest, and while I suspect the season will play a lot more smoothly when watched as a marathon rather than week-by-week, I feel like the characters have been very poorly served and at this stage nothing can redeem that. I am nervous about how the finale is going to play out as it really feels as if much of the cast is about to be shuffled unceremoniously off-screen ahead of the incoming guest stars of season three, and they deserve better than that.

I also agree.  I actually thought the first two episodes were teeing up something quite good and then it seemed the wheels fell off.  To me it seemed like there were 4 different shows(Picard with Guinan/Jurati/Laris, Seven/Raffi, Rios/Doctor, and Jurati/BQ) spliced together to create one and not done well. The scenes when they were together being shot after they had all gone through some amount of quarantine.  And I agree that season three is shaping up to be a TNG party/victory lap, so I am left to fume over why I was asked to care about these characters to start?!?!?  I feel used. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by salaydouk

[Llywela]

1 hour ago, salaydouk said:

I also agree.  I actually thought the first two episodes were teeing up something quite good and then it seemed the wheels fell off.  To me it seemed like there were 4 different shows(Picard with Guinan/Jurati/Laris, Seven/Raffi, Rios/Doctor, and Jurati/BQ) spliced together to create one and not done well. The scenes when they were together being shot after they had all gone through some amount of quarantine.  And I agree that season three is shaping up to be a TNG party/victory lap, so I am left to fume over why I was asked to care about these characters to start?!?!?  I feel used. 

I agree with this. I've defended the show a lot, mostly around plot stuff, but honestly, this season has dropped the ball on the characters so badly, it really is boggling. I've tried to be understanding of the constraints imposed by the pandemic and having to protect an 80-year-old star, and the changes in writing staff - I get the impression that although Michael Chabon spent much of 2020 sketching out a plan for the season and writing scripts, a lot of that work had to be completely thrown out because of the filming restrictions in place once they finally made it back to set, so that there was a lot of last-minute re-drafting of the plan for the season, plus the new showrunner Terry Matalas then only actually oversaw a handful of episodes before switching his focus to season three, so there seems to have just been too many people involved all with different ideas, all working within severe restraints, and the end result really is poor because in the midst of all that, they just completely lost sight of the actual characters.

And it's really frustrating because I care about the characters a lot more than I care about the plot - honestly, I can overlook any amount of plot weakness so long as the character development is good and strong, but the reverse is not true. A strong plot does not redeem poor character work - and ultimately, this season has neither. Everything is too disconnected. But it didn't have to be that way! Just because all the characters were siphoned off into covid bubbles didn't mean they had to be completely isolated in those bubbles. They have communicators, let them talk to each other! Honestly, so much about this season would have been improved if there had been open lines of communication to allow the characters to bounce off each other even when not in the same sub-plot, it all would have felt so much more connected. In 2.01 and 2.02 we saw two really lovely communicator conversations between Seven and Rios which 100% established that these two characters have formed a warm and strong friendship since they met in S1, and the actors didn't have to be in the same room to achieve it. Another early episode had Agnes on la Sirena talking to Seven and Raffi over comms, and that too really helped build a sense of friendship. But at some point, they all just...stopped talking to each other unless physically sharing a scene, and the storytelling became a lot more disjointed as a result. We desperately needed more connection between the characters to sell their storylines, but we just haven't had it.

(We also, to be quite frank, needed a season or two of more episodic adventures with these characters before throwing them into the storylines they've had here - imagine how much harder Elnor's death would have hit if we'd had that opportunity to bond with him)

Looking back, it is amazing how much of Rios's time with Theresa was spent on meaningless fluff designed to showcase who she is, instead of exploring Rios, the main cast member. A main cast member who has just been through a major life change between seasons and has had literally zero opportunity to discuss what that means for him - it would have been so easy to use his conversations with Theresa to tease out some of that development, instead of wasting screentime giving her, for instance, a really long speech describing a ridiculous hypothetical situation just so she could ask him a question he then didn't get to answer anyway, because they were interrupted! So pointless and generic, when the opportunity was there to actually explore the character in more depth and maybe understand what's going on in his head. Back in 2.02 (in another comms conversation) Agnes accused him of not really knowing where he belongs, which seemed to come out of left field because there has been no hint of that in his actual characterisation. In S1 he seemed content with the life he'd built for himself outside of Starfleet, and in 2.01 he seemed really happy to have reclaimed his Starfleet career. So if we are supposed to believe that Agnes was right and he has been searching for his place in the universe all this time, if we end up being asked to believe that he has found that place with Theresa and her kid...wouldn't it have been better, stronger, more meaningful if we'd heard some of that from the character himself.

And don't even get me started on the waste of discarding Soji, the waste of killing off Elnor, the waste of effectively killing Agnes. If they all end up staying dead - if Rios stays in 2024 in a world teetering on the brink of World War III and I'm asked to accept that as a happy ending when from the point of view of his friends in 2402 he'd be dead too - well, then why did I bother caring about any of these characters in the first place? I know that this is Picard's show, it is meant to be about him and by that metric all other characters are disposable, but it was cast as an ensemble, it was promoted as an ensemble, and, frankly, even the central hero of an eponymous show is only as strong as the characters around him, he can't carry an entire thing on his own, this isn't a one-man show. If the supporting characters are weakened, whether because the writers couldn't be bothered writing for them or because they were deliberately underwritten in an attempt to make the hero look better by comparison, it weakens the whole show.

When I think what this season could have been, how much potential was set up and then utterly discarded, I feel furious.

I am nervous about the finale this week.

Edited May 3, 2022 by Llywela

[marinw]

4 hours ago, Llywela said:

Michael Chabon wrote a good few episodes for the season before moving on to another project, then his scripts were completely re-written

That explains a lot. Chabon is one of my favourite writers, and would have done something more coherent than what we have here.

[Llywela]

8 minutes ago, marinw said:

That explains a lot. Chabon is one of my favourite writers, and would have done something more coherent than what we have here.

It would be nice to think so. I thought Chabon's inexperience as a showrunner was very evident in season one - lots of really big ideas that a ten-episode season could not do justice, so that a lot of the fine detail got lost in the shuffle - but he'd have learned from that experience going into season two, and I'd like to think that having created all these characters he'd have made more of an effort with them. But who knows, at this stage? And at the very least, having a single showrunner through the season would have brought stability and consistency. 

[MissLucas]

4 hours ago, salaydouk said:

And I agree that season three is shaping up to be a TNG party/victory lap, so I am left to fume over why I was asked to care about these characters to start?!?!?  I feel used. 

Yeah, I'm worried about that too. I love TNG but why establish new characters when all you do is catering to nostalgia? Elnor, Rios, Raffi, Agnes, Laris and Seven (though she is not new) are all interesting characters with story potential. Soiji, Laris and Elnor have already been sidelined this season and not for a plot (or plots) worthy of keeping them away.

[salaydouk]

13 hours ago, Llywela said:

Honestly, so much about this season would have been improved if there had been open lines of communication to allow the characters to bounce off each other even when not in the same sub-plot, it all would have felt so much more connected. In 2.01 and 2.02 we saw two really lovely communicator conversations between Seven and Rios which 100% established that these two characters have formed a warm and strong friendship since they met in S1, and the actors didn't have to be in the same room to achieve it. Another early episode had Agnes on la Sirena talking to Seven and Raffi over comms, and that too really helped build a sense of friendship. But at some point, they all just...stopped talking to each other unless physically sharing a scene, and the storytelling became a lot more disjointed as a result. We desperately needed more connection between the characters to sell their storylines, but we just haven't had it.

Looking back, it is amazing how much of Rios's time with Theresa was spent on meaningless fluff designed to showcase who she is, instead of exploring Rios, the main cast member. A main cast member who has just been through a major life change between seasons and has had literally zero opportunity to discuss what that means for him - it would have been so easy to use his conversations with Theresa to tease out some of that development, instead of wasting screentime giving her, for instance, a really long speech describing a ridiculous hypothetical situation just so she could ask him a question he then didn't get to answer anyway, because they were interrupted! So pointless and generic, when the opportunity was there to actually explore the character in more depth and maybe understand what's going on in his head. Back in 2.02 (in another comms conversation) Agnes accused him of not really knowing where he belongs, which seemed to come out of left field because there has been no hint of that in his actual characterisation. In S1 he seemed content with the life he'd built for himself outside of Starfleet, and in 2.01 he seemed really happy to have reclaimed his Starfleet career. So if we are supposed to believe that Agnes was right and he has been searching for his place in the universe all this time, if we end up being asked to believe that he has found that place with Theresa and her kid...wouldn't it have been better, stronger, more meaningful if we'd heard some of that from the character himself.

Regarding using communicator and having everyone connected... This was done really well in the first couple of episodes.  When they were all plotting to get out with the Borg Queen and fixing the transporters and dropping the security fields.  It worked so well that Rios and Agnes were even having a break-up post-mortem which I personally found hysterical.   And this particular type of communication/character interplay via technology was first mined with X-Files _thirty_ years ago - Chris Carter was even on record stating that that show would have been impossible to do without cell phones - and was done very successfully to not only insure character interplay but also serviced the plot. Heck even modern TV shows like NCIS LA and FBI have team members in constant communication. So the fact that the characters here were not in a revolving set of communicator conversations reeks of laziness of not wanting to do the post-production work to make it happen. 

And you are right Santiago Cabrera was severely wasted this year.  When I think about the fact for just how in-demand he was in the 2019 pilot season and that he picked _this_ show over several other offers because he was told he would have creative control over the characterization and the ensemble nature of the show, I get a litte POed.   Also he was always really careful _not_ to "play to type" so he usually avoided playing Hispanic/Latino characters  -  I mean he choose to play Aramis for the BBC.  So in deciding to play this role and leaning so heavily into his Chilean background, I have to think he had to be infuriated when he was forced into the Undocumented Immigrant/ICE detention storyline.   Regarding whether or not if Rios knew where he wanted to be... I don't believe he was content with his life - I think he was struggling with PTSD and how he basically dropped out of Starfleet after what he went through with his captain.  I think a better term was he was resigned to his life in Season1. Because as Picard said when he first met Rios - that while he was spewing bad things about Starfleet that he maintained La Sirena like a Starfleet ship.  During Season2, he did seem more comfortable in his own skin being back in Starfleet, but the "petty bickering"  between him and Agnes at the start, which I believe shows initial intent to bring the two back together despite what was said/occurred later, I think foreshadowed an attempt to say that Rios now wanted to have a relationship/family which he wouldn't want to have when he was his PTSD self when he potentially viewed himself a danger to others and preferred the life of a loner. 

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by salaydouk

[catsitter]

I wish they had given Renee a different name. I still think of Annie Wersching as Renee (from "24")!

[Ottis]

Why are we watching a show called Star Trek: Picard that looks like Die Hard VI? Mercenaries shooting automatic rifles? Brent Spiner as Hans Gruber? Elnor as John McClane?

Meanwhile, a doddering Picard is having a Bruce Wayne memory about caves. And childhood trauma. Is this the Hallmark Channel?

Uh, hello ... space, the final frontier? The Federation? Exploration? The Prime Directive? Alien races? Teamwork? Science? Ethics? Moral dilemmas? 

Who green lit this crap? Only Jurati and the Borg Queen belong here.

On 5/1/2022 at 10:19 PM, millennium said:

On the other hand, they apparently haven't been able to cure male pattern baldness in the 24th century either.

Why would they want to? Bald is beautiful.

 

Edited May 3, 2022 by Ottis

[Llywela]

17 hours ago, salaydouk said:

Regarding using communicator and having everyone connected... This was done really well in the first couple of episodes.  When they were all plotting to get out with the Borg Queen and fixing the transporters and dropping the security fields.  It worked so well that Rios and Agnes were even having a break-up post-mortem which I personally found hysterical.   And this particular type of communication/character interplay via technology was first mined with X-Files _thirty_ years ago - Chris Carter was even on record stating that that show would have been impossible to do without cell phones - and was done very successfully to not only insure character interplay but also serviced the plot. Heck even modern TV shows like NCIS LA and FBI have team members in constant communication. So the fact that the characters here were not in a revolving set of communicator conversations reeks of laziness of not wanting to do the post-production work to make it happen. 

And you are right Santiago Cabrera was severely wasted this year.  When I think about the fact for just how in-demand he was in the 2019 pilot season and that he picked _this_ show over several other offers because he was told he would have creative control over the characterization and the ensemble nature of the show, I get a litte POed.   Also he was always really careful _not_ to "play to type" so he usually avoided playing Hispanic/Latino characters  -  I mean he choose to play Aramis for the BBC.  So in deciding to play this role and leaning so heavily into his Chilean background, I have to think he had to be infuriated when he was forced into the Undocumented Immigrant/ICE detention storyline.   Regarding whether or not if Rios knew where he wanted to be... I don't believe he was content with his life - I think he was struggling with PTSD and how he basically dropped out of Starfleet after what he went through with his captain.  I think a better term was he was resigned to his life in Season1. Because as Picard said when he first met Rios - that while he was spewing bad things about Starfleet that he maintained La Sirena like a Starfleet ship.  During Season2, he did seem more comfortable in his own skin being back in Starfleet, but the "petty bickering"  between him and Agnes at the start, which I believe shows initial intent to bring the two back together despite what was said/occurred later, I think foreshadowed an attempt to say that Rios now wanted to have a relationship/family which he wouldn't want to have when he was his PTSD self when he potentially viewed himself a danger to others and preferred the life of a loner. 

Interesting that you point out how well the comms were used to facilitate cast interaction in the early episodes compared with later in the season. Because do you know what happened after episode three? Terry Matalas handed the reigns to Akiva Goldsman so he could focus on prepping season three. And the drop-off in quality of season two at that point was stark.

You are right, resigned is a better word for Rios in S1 but I think my point remains the same. I have had no sense from him in either season that he is just flying around looking for a purpose or place to belong, as Agnes accused and we are apparently supposed to believe. And if he was searching for his place in the universe in S1, 2.01 seemed to indicate that he had found it with his Starfleet reinstatement - and if not, that's a character insight that needed to be explored in way more depth than Agnes tossing it out as a blanket statement. And the opportunity was there to explore it. If his connection with Theresa had been used to explore what Rios is thinking and feeling, I wouldn't mind so much. But it wasn't. The storyline all season has literally just been 'Rios falls for Theresa', with no depth or character insight offered whatsoever.

I agree about Cabrera. If he is disappointed with how this gig has turned out, he will never say, that man was raised by a diplomat and it shows, but I feel bad for him. Every single thing that was interesting about Rios in season one has been stripped away for season two, reducing him to his ethnicity for the ICE storyline and the Latin lover stereotype for the Theresa romance - and at this point he can pretty much play a romance in his sleep, but my impression was that he was attracted to this project because it offered so much more than that. Rios in season one was so different from any role he's played before, the grumpy existentialist spaceman whose faith had been broken yet couldn't help hanging onto his principles anyway, so gentle and kind beneath that jagged surface, a diplomat who managed to talk everyone down from an armed standoff when even Picard failed, and very much the captain of his own ship. The holos, too, were intriguing and allowed him to stretch his acting muscles. But in season two...there has been none of that. He's been made to carry the idiot ball far too often just to achieve certain plot points, and the show has not even attempted to explain why he has made some of the choices he has made. It is really disappointing. When you think how much effort was put into literally every other starship captain this franchise has ever had, even the temporary ones on Discovery! Rios was done dirty by comparison, he has been massively underwritten, so that Picard could be the leader instead.

I think the failure sits squarely on the shoulders of the writers, and can't be blamed on the pandemic. There was too much chaos behind the scenes, too many changes of vision, and the characters got lost in the shuffle. Not to mention the integral identity crisis at the heart of the show, which wants to be an intimate character study of Jean Luc Picard but was then cast as a regular Star Trek ensemble and has never managed to reconcile the two.

I also think that Rios has suffered from the addition of Seven of Nine to the regular cast, much as I love Seven. 

Edited May 4, 2022 by Llywela

[salaydouk]

12 hours ago, Llywela said:

Interesting that you point out how well the comms were used to facilitate cast interaction in the early episodes compared with later in the season. Because do you know what happened after episode three? Terry Matalas handed the reigns to Akiva Goldsman so he could focus on prepping season three. And the drop-off in quality of season two at that point was stark.

You are right, resigned is a better word for Rios in S1 but I think my point remains the same. I have had no sense from him in either season that he is just flying around looking for a purpose or place to belong, as Agnes accused and we are apparently supposed to believe. And if he was searching for his place in the universe in S1, 2.01 seemed to indicate that he had found it with his Starfleet reinstatement - and if not, that's a character insight that needed to be explored in way more depth than Agnes tossing it out as a blanket statement. And the opportunity was there to explore it. If his connection with Theresa had been used to explore what Rios is thinking and feeling, I wouldn't mind so much. But it wasn't. The storyline all season has literally just been 'Rios falls for Theresa', with no depth or character insight offered whatsoever.

I agree about Cabrera. If he is disappointed with how this gig has turned out, he will never say, that man was raised by a diplomat and it shows, but I feel bad for him. Every single thing that was interesting about Rios in season one has been stripped away for season two, reducing him to his ethnicity for the ICE storyline and the Latin lover stereotype for the Theresa romance - and at this point he can pretty much play a romance in his sleep, but my impression was that he was attracted to this project because it offered so much more than that. Rios in season one was so different from any role he's played before, the grumpy existentialist spaceman whose faith had been broken yet couldn't help hanging onto his principles anyway, so gentle and kind beneath that jagged surface, a diplomat who managed to talk everyone down from an armed standoff when even Picard failed, and very much the captain of his own ship. The holos, too, were intriguing and allowed him to stretch his acting muscles. But in season two...there has been none of that. He's been made to carry the idiot ball far too often just to achieve certain plot points, and the show has not even attempted to explain why he has made some of the choices he has made. It is really disappointing. When you think how much effort was put into literally every other starship captain this franchise has ever had, even the temporary ones on Discovery! Rios was done dirty by comparison, he has been massively underwritten, so that Picard could be the leader instead.

I think the failure sits squarely on the shoulders of the writers, and can't be blamed on the pandemic. There was too much chaos behind the scenes, too many changes of vision, and the characters got lost in the shuffle. Not to mention the integral identity crisis at the heart of the show, which wants to be an intimate character study of Jean Luc Picard but was then cast as a regular Star Trek ensemble and has never managed to reconcile the two.

I also think that Rios has suffered from the addition of Seven of Nine to the regular cast, much as I love Seven. 

Yeah I noticed that the show dropped off after episode three as well.  

I see your point about Rios and the lack of full explanation/exploration of this character this season and the blame does lie with the writers and showrunners.  I think there was intent to go there but it just got lost in the shuffle of the behind the scenes chaos.   She accused him of a lot of other things as well including impatience and he accused her of being emotionally distant.  That exchange to me seemed like an opening salvo for things to come that never did - hence the feeling like it was just thrown out there. 

Now I might be giving too much credit here but being accused of "not knowing what he wants" is actually pretty intriguing.  Because there is this _huge_ life change when you go from being in the military and then being a civilian - it is drastic. So for Rios to go from being IN to being OUT to being IN again it would make anyone question what they actually want.   In S1 it was revealed he was in Starfleet and why he had to leave - that forcing back in to civilian life while still wanting to be in the military at the same time is something that would keep him unbalanced.  But in S2 we find him back in which means a return the a very structured life that he had become unaccustomed to while he was a civilian, which would in turn cause him to lament to his close associates that the military is too confining.   This push/pull of wanting/not wanting a military life is actually _very_ common among military service members.   

But again I take your point that there was no on-screen depiction of this or anything else that advanced Rios' character for the viewer.  And yeah I had the same feeling Rios was the most interesting and for me also most infuriating character from S1 and they turned him into a lapdog/gofer.  And yes Seven seems to have taken over the role he was to have had...

 

Edited May 4, 2022 by salaydouk

[Spaceman Spiff]

On 5/2/2022 at 8:18 AM, Zonk said:

I have to say though, I really liked the scene between Jurati and the Queen. I'm not the biggest fan of turning the Borg from something really alien, an unknowable collective, to a one woman show, but that was already mostly done in the TNG movies and Voyager. With the state that the Borg are, this was nicely done. Exploring the psychology of the queen, getting her to see better paths. That seems like something you'd see in a Star Trek Show. Also really well acted. On both parts. I really could have done with more of that throughout the season and less of retconing Picards childhood.

I supposed I could see your point, but for me I think I hated that they boiled it down to the Borg Queen assimilating all those races/worlds because deep down, she was just lonely y'all.

[Ottis]

On 5/2/2022 at 2:14 PM, tennisgurl said:

Its not that I dislike this Picard backstory, or the idea of diving further into the Picards troubled family history, I feel terrible for him, but it all reeks of retcon to me. Even beyond the fact that this was obviously never part of what the TNG writers had in mind for him, we have already explored so much of Picard's backstory it feels weird that none of this has come up yet. I guess they are implying that Picard blocked a lot of this out, but with the number of times Picard has explored his past and the past of his family, its weird that its never come up before, even the tiniest mention of his mom even beyond her death. Nothing when he time traveled back to his past as a dumb rookie who got stabbed in the heart, nothing when he went home to visit Robert, who is weirdly absent throughout all of this, or the multiple times he went to therapy or when his remaining family died and he was heartbroken over it (a plot that I hated anyway) its so weird that its never come up.

It is fruitless to try to retcon this into canon. The entire plot is due to Patrick Stewart, and a sympathetic producer and/or writer, wanting to shove "mental health" into the series. That's all. And it is now in Barry, and Moon Night. It is clearly "a thing" in Hollywood and California now. You're the Worst did it much better, years ago. 

[TAG42481]

Raffi and Seven run across a field and don't get a scratch on them (from that).

We see what looked like at least a hundred soldiers beam in, and only see about a dozen of them get killed.  But it's okay, they took the ship back.

The writers decided to show us Picard's mommy issues from about 60 years ago.

 

What is this steaming bag of crap doing on my front porch?  I shouldn't be fast forwarding through flashbacks in a TEN EPISODE SEASON.  TEN!  Not even THIRTEEN!  The first three episodes of this season were good, but it's just been downhill from there.  I'll watch out the season finale out of allegiance, but I'm really just getting to the point where I'm going to have to forget this show ever existed and just pretend that not-as-bad Nemesis was JLP's final hurrah.  Ugh.

[Paloma]

On 5/3/2022 at 1:19 AM, Llywela said:

It all sounds like a huge mess, to be honest, and while I suspect the season will play a lot more smoothly when watched as a marathon rather than week-by-week, I feel like the characters have been very poorly served and at this stage nothing can redeem that.

My husband and I recently started watching the series as a marathon (2-3 episodes a night) and think it is a mess. There have been some interesting characters and plot points, but watching it this way rather than week by week has not made it play more smoothly. Still, we decided to stick it out through the first 2 seasons because we heard that season 3 is much better. 

[formerlyfreedom]

Hello - just a reminder this topic is for the ninth episode of the second season, and not the final episode - so discussion of the second season as a whole should not occur here. If you want to talk about season two as a whole, please discuss in this topic. Thank you!

[dovegrey]

12 hours ago, Paloma said:

My husband and I recently started watching the series as a marathon (2-3 episodes a night) and think it is a mess. There have been some interesting characters and plot points, but watching it this way rather than week by week has not made it play more smoothly. Still, we decided to stick it out through the first 2 seasons because we heard that season 3 is much better. 

Same here and agreed. The show doesn't play better on binge. We're doing 1-2 episodes a night.

We think it's a disaster of a series so far: some good ideas with no room to breathe, just enough bad ideas that are given way too much room to breathe, and very little narrative strength (this episode was absolutely all over the place, and now we're back to Renee, who we haven't seen in, what, three episodes?). More than that, I don't buy that any of these characters are invested in each other the way the writing tries to make me believe; this season's character threads, especially with Raffi+Seven and Raffi+Elnor, were not earned. The best way I can describe it is that I feel like I dropped back into this show after missing several seasons. The writing choices are absolutely baffling and rely far, far too heavily on flashbacks, especially this episode with the mom scenes interspersed with what should have been some compelling "save Agnes, save the future" scenes.

The end of this episode sure did reinforce the Queen's argument that no one really cares about Agnes. Haven't gotten to 2x10 yet but I'm hoping Agnes is saved somehow.

Edited February 26, 2023 by dovegrey

[Quickbeam]

Just got Paramount and am powering through this series. This episode was just a nonsensical mess. The only pleasure I’m getting out of it is seeing Ryan, Stewart and Spiner again.