S01.S07: Heroes

[CrystalBlue]

The Dropout: Episode 7 - "Heroes" Promo

Under intense scrutiny from the Wall Street Journal, Elizabeth and Sunny double down on defense; Tyler and Erika face a difficult choice.

Air date: March 31, 2022
 

Another great episode.  Bonus points for the opening scenes choice of song.

[surfer]

Grandma Shultz, Judith “BAM!” Baker and Phyllis Dr. Gardner are all pretty awesome. 

 

[AntFTW]

BAM! 😂😂😂

[SlovakPrincess]

Lisa Gay Hamilton (Judith) was an absolute joy in this episode.  The "BAM!" story, and then pointedly, calmly downloading her own recording app when Theranos' lawyers tried to intimidate her by recording the meeting ... I just loved all the Judith / John Carreyrou scenes.  

I have to give credit to Kurtwood Smith (David Boies), as well -- he's doing a great job looking like he knows his client is full of it, while still trying to do his job.   Even the slimy in-house counsel Linda (according to IMDB, Michaela Watkins) ... well, she's doing a great job being both anxious and hate-able!  

How did Sunny track down the doctors who had been willing to go on the record about inaccurate results??  Creepy as hell when he found and threatened that doctor.  

Thank you Charlotte Schultz for getting Tyler lawyered up finally!  And I liked George talking about his experience with Nixon and Reagan to try and get some truth out of Elizabeth (though he wrongly assumed it was all Sunny's fault).  

"We. Have. Herpes!!"  LOL.  Why is every announcement at this company such a horrifying cringe fest?  

Harvard Medical School put her on their board??  Holy hell.  And "Don't call me Phyllis, I'm Dr. Gardner to you" -- Ha!

The Sunny / Elizabeth scene in the bedroom was intense.  

[Carolina Girl]

8 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

How did Sunny track down the doctors who had been willing to go on the record about inaccurate results??

My guess is the doctors voiced complaints about the inaccurate results at the time to Theranos and so Sunny just went to each one of them.   Personally. I'd have told that prick that it was my PATIENTS that asked me to get the word out.  That would have thrown Sunny for a loop.  

I'm surprised that Ericka didn't have Tyler take the course that she did (but they didn't mention in the show) - write a letter to the FDA and have himself declared a whistleblower.  

Elizabeth telling Schultz that she told Murdoch to kill the story was quite the revelation to Schultz.  

Loved Carreyou at the meeting with Boies at the WSJ.  "So why don't you answer my questions?"  

The walls are closing in on the Pretty Little Liar.....is next week the last episode?  

[bluegirl147]

32 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

The walls are closing in on the Pretty Little Liar

Thank god because it's getting to the point I'm going to have to mute the show whenever they show Elizabeth talking to someone about how great she is.

[Carolina Girl]

4 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Thank god because it's getting to the point I'm going to have to mute the show whenever they show Elizabeth talking to someone about how great she is.

That moment when Dr. Gardner informed her not to address her by her first name was priceless.....

Interesting that they had her give that post-article Speech "they fight you....and then you change the World" speech to her assembled minions.  In truth, she made the statement when she went on Jim Cramer's show on CNBC right after her induction at Harvard.  (You have to wonder if someone at Harvard read the article right before the ceremony and said "oh, shit!")

[bluegirl147]

Elizabeth tells Sunny we need to fix the root cause of things not working.  Sunny asks what is the root cause.  Let me answer that Sunny. 

YOUR COMPANY IS A FRAUD.

Edited March 31, 2022 by bluegirl147

[SoapDoc]

5 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Elizabeth tells Sunny we need to fix the root cause of things not working.  Sunny asks what is the root cause.  Let me answer that Sunny. 

YOUR COMPANY IS A FRAUD.

True! My response was:

OUR PRODUCT DOES NOT WORK.

[AntFTW]

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I have to give credit to Kurtwood Smith (David Boies), as well -- he's doing a great job looking like he knows his client is full of it, while still trying to do his job.   Even the slimy in-house counsel Linda (according to IMDB, Michaela Watkins) ... well, she's doing a great job being both anxious and hate-able!

David Boies did one thing you’re not supposed to do. You never break the united front. When the in-house counsel said they’re using 3rd party machines are comparison purposes only, he shouldn’t have departed from that.

I always say that if an actor is portraying an unlikable person, and that portrayal makes me want to punch them in the face, they’re doing a great job. Everyone is doing an amazing job. I’ve watched every episode twice because I think they’re doing a great job with the story.

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

How did Sunny track down the doctors who had been willing to go on the record about inaccurate results??  Creepy as hell when he found and threatened that doctor.  

I wonder if that part is real. Did Sunny really go to that length? That’s super creepy.

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Thank you Charlotte Schultz for getting Tyler lawyered up finally!

Amen to that!

2 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Harvard Medical School put her on their board??  Holy hell.  And "Don't call me Phyllis, I'm Dr. Gardner to you" -- Ha!

I was watching that scene thinking Amanda Seyfried still looks like a teenager and they should ask for ID 😂

Edited March 31, 2022 by AntFTW

[AntFTW]

9 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Elizabeth tells Sunny we need to fix the root cause of things not working.  Sunny asks what is the root cause.  Let me answer that Sunny. 

YOUR COMPANY IS A FRAUD.

That was RICH coming from her!!!! I had to watch that scene back because I wanted to be sure that’s what I heard.

Fix the root cause? THE ROOT CAUSE? The root cause is you don’t have a working product! FIX THAT!

[slowpoked]

2 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I wonder if that part is real. Did Sunny really go to that length? That’s super creepy.

Some variation of that happened for sure, because as Carreyrou described in the book, the reason why the story took so long is because a lot of his sources dropped out. I'm sure it's all condensed into the series, but he had spent considerable amount of time describing how a lot of his sources got followed, intimidated, threatened, etc. I specifically remember something about Erika being watched from her new work by a strange car in the parking lot. I liked that they addressed it in this episode. Also the fact that Tyler felt ambushed when all of a sudden, Theranos lawyers came into the room with his grandpa. 

That tic of Amanda - is that a real-life tic of EH?

1 hour ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Even the slimy in-house counsel Linda (according to IMDB, Michaela Watkins)

She used to be a former SNL castmember. Good job to Michaela for making her character give me all the icky feeling.

[bluegirl147]

2 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

! I had to watch that scene back because I wanted to be sure that’s what I heard.

Fix the root cause? THE ROOT CAUSE? The root cause is you don’t have a working product! FIX THAT!

At what point, if ever, did Elizabeth realize all those plates spinning in the air were going to come down on her head?  She keeps touting her invention.  Adding more and more diseases her invention can diagnose.  She keeps getting more investors.  I get why people who didn't know it was all a fraud kept going but she knew.  Either that is some serious denial or delusion with her or she thought she could somehow get away with it.

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Lisa Gay Hamilton (Judith) was an absolute joy in this episode.  The "BAM!" story, and then pointedly, calmly downloading her own recording app when Theranos' lawyers tried to intimidate her by recording the meeting ... I just loved all the Judith / John Carreyrou scenes.  

She was my absolutely my favorite part of the episode.

Downloading the recording app was hilarious!

[slowpoked]

26 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Either that is some serious denial or delusion with her or she thought she could somehow get away with it.

It's the old adage "fake it till you make it". I'm sure she was buying herself and the company some time by pretending the machine is working when it doesn't, while her people work behind the scenes, and she's trying to keep the company afloat until the machines actually work (which in hindsight as we all know, never did). If by some miracle, she actually figured it out, then who would remember that the old machines were giving false readings once she rolls out the real, accurate machine.

[AntFTW]

15 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

It's the old adage "fake it till you make it". I'm sure she was buying herself and the company some time by pretending the machine is working when it doesn't, while her people work behind the scenes, and she's trying to keep the company afloat until the machines actually work (which in hindsight as we all know, never did). If by some miracle, she actually figured it out, then who would remember that the old machines were giving false readings once she rolls out the real, accurate machine.

For that to work, you have to keep trying to make it.

From the point of view of the show, everyone seemed to be focused on the "fake it" part and not really trying to "make it." Employees delete or change results they don't like to keep the facade. EH and Sunny are shutting down those who try to break the facade. Employees are locked in a dungeon testing patient bloods and giving result to keep the facade. 100% of the energy is on keeping appearances and no one seems to be developing the product.

I think the "fake it till you make it" attitude is understandable. I believe she genuinely thought that she would get her machine to work at some point. Act like she has a working machine until she has an actual working machine. At some point, you have to come to the realization that what you're doing isn't working and you have to try something different. She has siloed every department and every team so they can't share their various expertise on how to possibly make the thing work.

[bluegirl147]

11 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

For that to work, you have to keep trying to make it.

From the point of view of the show, everyone seemed to be focused on the "fake it" part and not really trying to "make it." Employees delete or change results they don't like to keep the facade. EH and Sunny are shutting down those who try to break the facade. Employees are locked in a dungeon testing patient bloods and giving result to keep the facade. 100% of the energy is on keeping appearances and no one seems to be developing the product.

I think the "fake it till you make it" attitude is understandable. I believe she genuinely thought that she would get her machine to work at some point. Act like she has a working machine until she has an actual working machine. At some point, you have to come to the realization that what you're doing isn't working and you have to try something different. She has siloed every department and every team so they can't share their various expertise on how to possibly make the thing work.

And all the while she is still selling her product.  That is what makes me detest her so much. She knew it wasn't working and she was lying and saying it was.  And accepting all kinds of rewards for it.  We aren't just talking about money.  She was being given accolades and prestige she absolutely did not deserve.  And let's not forget she was trying and sometimes succeeding in ruining the lives of people who were trying to bring the truth to light. RIP Ian.  It's easy to see Sunny as the villain, which he absolutely is, but Elizabeth is just as horrible if not more so.  She was the face of the company.  She basked in all the praise bestowed upon her.  And I'm not sure she ever acknowledged even to herself that she was a fraud.

[Cinnabon]

40 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

For that to work, you have to keep trying to make it.

From the point of view of the show, everyone seemed to be focused on the "fake it" part and not really trying to "make it." Employees delete or change results they don't like to keep the facade. EH and Sunny are shutting down those who try to break the facade. Employees are locked in a dungeon testing patient bloods and giving result to keep the facade. 100% of the energy is on keeping appearances and no one seems to be developing the product.

I think the "fake it till you make it" attitude is understandable. I believe she genuinely thought that she would get her machine to work at some point. Act like she has a working machine until she has an actual working machine. At some point, you have to come to the realization that what you're doing isn't working and you have to try something different. She has siloed every department and every team so they can't share their various expertise on how to possibly make the thing work.

The issue is - making it work as she imagined is impossible. One drop of blood will never be enough to run hundreds of tests. Diseases can’t be diagnosed with simply a blood test. Patients can’t order their own blood tests without doctors’ orders (in most states.) A flying car would also be cool,  but that’s not possible either. 

[Diapason Untuned]

44 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

For that to work, you have to keep trying to make it.

From the point of view of the show, everyone seemed to be focused on the "fake it" part and not really trying to "make it." Employees delete or change results they don't like to keep the facade. EH and Sunny are shutting down those who try to break the facade. Employees are locked in a dungeon testing patient bloods and giving result to keep the facade. 100% of the energy is on keeping appearances and no one seems to be developing the product.

I think the "fake it till you make it" attitude is understandable. I believe she genuinely thought that she would get her machine to work at some point. Act like she has a working machine until she has an actual working machine. At some point, you have to come to the realization that what you're doing isn't working and you have to try something different. She has siloed every department and every team so they can't share their various expertise on how to possibly make the thing work.

She got addicted to her own hype and viewed any conflicting message as a personal attack on her own self mythology.

She went from 'fake it till you make it' to just "fake it", which is the whole problem with that saying. At some point, you have to show the proof in the pudding and when you keep faking it, it's hard to actually make it, because faking it is surprise, surprise, not very conducive to getting actual work done.

[SlovakPrincess]

1 hour ago, slowpoked said:

It's the old adage "fake it till you make it". I'm sure she was buying herself and the company some time by pretending the machine is working when it doesn't, while her people work behind the scenes, and she's trying to keep the company afloat until the machines actually work (which in hindsight as we all know, never did). If by some miracle, she actually figured it out, then who would remember that the old machines were giving false readings once she rolls out the real, accurate machine.

This is definitely what she banked on, that eventually it would all come together, so her lies along the way wouldn't matter in the end ... and, yet ... you can't "fake it" and not violate the law when that involves lying to investors and regulators about whether you're actually making progress with your invention or doing something safe.  

For some reason this is reminding me of a show from many, many years ago, where Martha Stewart had her own version of Apprentice, and one of the contestants merrily said "you know what they say ... fake it till you make it!"   And Martha stopped everything she was doing to scold this now-very-surprised woman -- "no, you need to work hard so you know what you're doing before you try to launch a business - there's no 'faking'."  And that was for a baking competition!  It's such a normal phrase we throw around, but if you really think about it, it's bad advice.

And Holmes wasn't even doing the actual work to "fake" it!  She's just pressuring all these other people to figure out the impossible, thinking if the actual scientists are stressed and threatened enough, they'll be forced to fix it somehow.  It's sort of amazing to me that she's constantly in the office and doing ... what?  What "work" does she actually do?  Self-promotion?  Sweet-talking investors?  Threatening underlings? 

[bluegirl147]

6 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

What "work" does she actually do?  Self-promotion?  Sweet-talking investors?  Threatening underlings? 

Yes, yes and yes.

[AntFTW]

8 hours ago, SlovakPrincess said:

This is definitely what she banked on, that eventually it would all come together, so her lies along the way wouldn't matter in the end ... and, yet ... you can't "fake it" and not violate the law when that involves lying to investors and regulators about whether you're actually making progress with your invention or doing something safe.

When reading your post, I thought what I learned in my profession.

In my profession, I’ve learned that investors have a herd mentality, and especially the ones with too much money than they know what to do with. You get one big name investor, it makes it significantly easier to get the next investor. Every investor after the first assumes that previous investor did their proper due diligence before investing. One would assume that a high profile businessman and billionaire like Larry Ellison did their homework before investing. “I’m sure Larry looked into this and if he’s investing, it must be legit. My investment can fail but at least I know it’s not a fraud because Larry’s in it and I trust Larry’s business instinct.”

Investors will drink the kool-aid on reports of progress because they’ve invested on the basis that it’s a legitimate business because some other wealthy person has done their homework, and “if I don’t see it, it’s okay because they saw it.”

Edited April 1, 2022 by AntFTW

[BeatrixK]

3 hours ago, slowpoked said:

 

 

She used to be a former SNL castmember. Good job to Michaela for making her character give me all the icky feeling.

She was also the drunk wife of Rick, the asshole port-a-potty king in Wanderlust, and she's hysterical:  "I put my dildos in the dishwasher.  Like Whoopie...say...to...do!'

Seyfried is KILLING it!  She has that bizarre stare down, and her weird ass hunchy walk.

And you can throw Laurie Metcalf in anything and I'm just sold.  That woman is perfect in everything!

[Carolina Girl]

1 hour ago, SlovakPrincess said:

What "work" does she actually do?  Self-promotion?  Sweet-talking investors?  Threatening underlings? 

She walked around a lot and apparently conducted stupid meetings.  The engineers and chemists tell of one meeting where they were desperately trying to advise her about the fact that the machine size wasn't practical, and she spent the entire meeting discussing what to name their "Cloud".  She named it "Yoda."  (Not surprising.  She had that "Do or do not.  There is no Try" quote all over a wall.  
 

Also - every time an engineer or chemist came to them and said pointedly that THIS.WILL.NOT.WORK., they fired them.  

[peachmangosteen]

6 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

is next week the last episode?  

Yes, it's the series finale.

I happened upon a video of the real Holmes the other day. I'd never actually heard her talk before. Amanda Seyfried doesn't do her voice justice at all imo. But then, I don't know who could mimic that insanity lol.

[chocolatine]

I understand that Theranos would pull out all the stops to intimidate people against speaking out, but isn't there legal protection for corporate whistleblowers, including exemption from NDAs? Tyler, Erika, and Stuart from BBT (forgot what his character's name is) would definitely fall into that category as former employees. And doesn't breach of doctor-patient confidentiality involve disclosing a patient's name? The doctor who talked to Carreyrou didn't identify any of the patients she was talking about, so she shouldn't have let Sunny intimidate her. (BTW, if that troll had come to my workplace making threats and demanding that I sign something, I'd have told him he had ten seconds to get out before I called the police.)

Lisa Gay Hamilton was the MVP of the episode even though she didn't have much screen time. Her downloading the recording app was gold.

There's nothing quite like watching a couple of hundred Silicon Valley tech workers chant "we have herpes" over and over while dancing awkwardly.

Edited April 1, 2022 by chocolatine

[Jordan Baker]

Very good episode, once again. Everyone is great in their roles, although I do confess that I keep waiting for the Boies character to threaten to kick everyone's ass, ala Red Foreman.

The intimidation of the ex-employees and doctors and anyone else who wanted to cooperate with the WSJ was despicable. 

The most surprising thing I learned in the episode was that Rupert Murdoch refused to kill the story (assuming that tidbit was true).

Has "fake it till you make it" evolved over time to now mean stall, obfuscate, and hope things will work out? The first time I ever heard it used (many years ago), it was in the context of personal behavior. For example, if you're feeling down, project an air of happiness and eventually you'll be happy. If you want to appear confident, project an air of confidence, etc. It was actually supposed to be a positive thing to do. (I'm not saying the philosophy is correct, BTW. But it wasn't about fooling anyone else.)  

[Andyourlittledog2]

Excuse me while I dive into the shallow end of the pool for a moment.

Amanda is doing a fantastic job of channeling Holmes but the fact that she didn't get her hair exactly is, frankly, a relief. I always wondered why the real Elizabeth's hair always seemed so unkempt, even when she had it in a bun and was photographed professionally for magazines, etc. Now that I've seen her in documentary form (The Inventor on HBOMax) I see the problem.  Her hair was completely fried, presumably by the constant bleaching to make her a very light blonde. Earlier pictures of her show her with very pretty hair but it was natural and somewhat darker. Later on I guess she started do the bleach and ruined it. It amazes me that someone with that kind of money at her disposal (and she came from enough money as well) would not do something about that. She always looked like she had straw on her head, and uneven straw at that. Amanda's hair doesn't really do that. It's a little broken on the ends, but not anywhere near Holmes' level of damaged.

I also noticed that Holmes' closet had a gazillion high heel shoes on shelves even though she barely wore anything but that black uniform. And most of the black uniform section of her closet had tags still on them. I wonder how long she wore just one then threw it away. Black fades so damn fast.

That discussion with George Schultz gave Holmes the out she needed to defend herself now that the article came out. Blame Sunny. After all, she's just the CEO and CEOs don't read their email. When she pointed that out to Sunny you could see the understanding in his face. He was going to be the fall guy, it was just a matter of time before Elizabeth ducked behind him to save herself.

[wanderingstar]

LisaGay Hamilton is always wonderful, but she’s especially so in this series. When she began her story about Sicily, I just smiled. Loved all of Judith and John’s scenes.

Sunny yelling at people annoys me. He is such an insecure person.

Felt so bad for Tyler and Erika. I like that they at least have each other to lean on and talk to. The way they both jumped at a random sound was heartbreaking. Thank God for Charlotte. Tyler would've been screwed without her because George was giving no help.

Quote

It's the old adage "fake it till you make it". I'm sure she was buying herself and the company some time by pretending the machine is working when it doesn't, while her people work behind the scenes, and she's trying to keep the company afloat until the machines actually work (which in hindsight as we all know, never did). If by some miracle, she actually figured it out, then who would remember that the old machines were giving false readings once she rolls out the real, accurate machine.

One thing I don’t understand is why couldn’t Elizabeth pivot to something that was workable? Why did she keep going with this technology that wasn’t working after years of trying?

Quote

There's nothing quite like watching a couple of hundred Silicon Valley tech workers chanting "we have herpes" over and over while dancing awkwardly.

Speaking of weird chants, I wondered if we’d be getting the “Fuck you, Carreyrou” chant, and sure enough we did. Bizarre, like so much of this story.

Dr. Gardner is so great. She has zero patience for Elizabeth and her delusions.

Edited April 1, 2022 by Gillian Rosh

[Johnny Dollar]

As this episode showed, the problem for a whistleblower is that you still need to hire an attorney to defend you against the threats. Boies knew that Elizabeth was full of shit but he also knew that he could essentially bankrupt the sources before the truth would come out. Tyler’s parents apparently spent over half a million dollars fighting the suits.

If you read the book or listened to either of the podcasts you know that the series doesn’t even cover half of the shitty things these people did and how they terrorizes their employees. I don’t know if there is a second season, but I would love for them to cover the trial and see Elizabeth and her $10 million legal dream team get their asses handed to them in court. 

[wanderingstar]

I listened to Tyler Shultz's podcast that he did for Audible. It's pretty intense. He recounts in great detail the threats and intimidation Theranos threw at him. @Johnny Dollar is exactly right that Elizabeth, Sunny, and their lawyers put Erika, Tyler, and so many more through hell. 

[Cinnabon]

51 minutes ago, Gillian Rosh said:

One thing I don’t understand is why couldn’t Elizabeth pivot to something that was workable? Why did she keep going with this technology that wasn’t working after years of trying?

Quote

There's nothing quite like watching a couple of hundred Silicon Valley tech workers chanting "we have herpes" over and over while dancing awkwardly.

Speaking of weird chants, I wondered if we’d getting the “Fuck you, Carreyrou” chant, and sure enough we did. Bizarre, like so much of this story.

Dr. Gardner is so great. She has zero patience for Elizabeth and her delusions.

Edited 41 minutes ago by Gillian Rosh

The already established  big blood testing companies had/have already been working on these technologies for years. There was nowhere for her to pivot.

[slowpoked]

1 hour ago, Gillian Rosh said:

One thing I don’t understand is why couldn’t Elizabeth pivot to something that was workable? Why did she keep going with this technology that wasn’t working after years of trying?

 

12 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

The already established  big blood testing companies had/have already been working on these technologies for years. There was nowhere for her to pivot.

EH's big sales pitch is that Theranos can detect every single thing wrong with a person via a single drop of blood. No more multiple blood draws into different colored vials with different labels like Quest Diagnostics does. Like @Cinnabon said, once she admits her theory isn't feasible, then she's just another lab owner wannabe that will be eaten up by established labs already, and what investor would be interested in that.

She tried to "pivot" to "multiple drops of blood", and that's the part that Carreyrou used a lot to back Theranos into a corner.  

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

 

EH's big sales pitch is that Theranos can detect every single thing wrong with a person via a single drop of blood. No more multiple blood draws into different colored vials with different labels like Quest Diagnostics does. Like @Cinnabon said, once she admits her theory isn't feasible, then she's just another lab owner wannabe that will be eaten up by established labs already, and what investor would be interested in that.

She tried to "pivot" to "multiple drops of blood", and that's the part that Carreyrou used a lot to back Theranos into a corner.  

Thanks for being more articulate than I could! 

[AntFTW]

5 minutes ago, slowpoked said:

EH's big sales pitch is that Theranos can detect every single thing wrong with a person via a single drop of blood. No more multiple blood draws into different colored vials with different labels like Quest Diagnostics does. Like @Cinnabon said, once she admits her theory isn't feasible, then she's just another lab owner wannabe that will be eaten up by established labs already, and what investor would be interested in that.

Right! It wouldn't be a multibillion dollar industry disrupting company anymore.

[MsTree]

Apparently I missed some dialog because I have no idea what "we have herpes" is supposed to mean. Can someone explain? Thanks in advance.

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, MsTree said:

Apparently I missed some dialog because I have no idea what "we have herpes" is supposed to mean. Can someone explain? Thanks in advance.

They were celebrating getting FDA authorization to test for herpes.

[Johnny Dollar]

The test for herpes was the first test they ever got FDA approval for. And this was after the company had been in business for twelve years. And of course the business media simply ran with the Theranos press releases when reporting on it, making it seem like some big deal and ignoring how long it took them to develop even one successful test. Ironically, I believe it was eventually revealed that some of the data provided to the FDA may have been fudged.

[bluegirl147]

I wonder how many former employees keep Theranos on their resumes.  

9 hours ago, slowpoked said:

She tried to "pivot" to "multiple drops of blood", and that's the part that Carreyrou used a lot to back Theranos into a corner.  

Also what one of their lawyers said in that meeting with Carreyrou and his editor about them using that other machine.  Much of what was used to finally bring down Theranos was their own words. 

11 hours ago, Jordan Baker said:

The most surprising thing I learned in the episode was that Rupert Murdoch refused to kill the story (assuming that tidbit was true).

I wonder what would have happened if he had killed the story.  Elizabeth would have been found out eventually but how many more people would have been given inaccurate test results and how many more people would have invested obscene amounts of money? If I'm not mistaken they were planning on taking the company public.

[MaggieG]

I loved Judith and John's little banter about the recording app downloading. "I click here? Is it free?"

I absolutely love Dr Gardner and her contempt for Elizabeth. 

I felt so bad for poor Tyler when he was cornered at his own grandfather's house. I'm glad his step grandma stuck up for him.

[peachmangosteen]

11 hours ago, Gillian Rosh said:

Speaking of weird chants, I wondered if we’d getting the “Fuck you, Carreyrou” chant, and sure enough we did. Bizarre, like so much of this story.

They actually did that in real life?!

11 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I don’t know if there is a second season ...

There is not. The next episode is labeled as the series finale.

I too wish they would cover more of the fallout. 1 episode isn't enough time. I think they should have spent less time on the pre-Theranos days or done 10 eps so they could show all the fallout more in depth.

[SnapHappy]

17 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

And you can throw Laurie Metcalf in anything and I'm just sold.  That woman is perfect in everything!

She's proof that a talented woman over 40 can still find GOOD roles.   You put Phyllis up against Jackie in "The Conners", Marion in "Lady Bird", or Susie in "JFK", and it's amazing that the same woman just kills the roles.  

[bluegirl147]

17 minutes ago, SnapHappy said:

She's proof that a talented woman over 40 can still find GOOD roles.   You put Phyllis up against Jackie in "The Conners", Marion in "Lady Bird", or Susie in "JFK", and it's amazing that the same woman just kills the roles.  

The first time I saw Laurie Metcalf was in Desperately Seeking Susan.

"Take a valium like a normal person."

[questionfear]

 

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

I wonder how many former employees keep Theranos on their resumes.  

Also what one of their lawyers said in that meeting with Carreyrou and his editor about them using that other machine.  Much of what was used to finally bring down Theranos was their own words. 

I wonder what would have happened if he had killed the story.  Elizabeth would have been found out eventually but how many more people would have been given inaccurate test results and how many more people would have invested obscene amounts of money? If I'm not mistaken they were planning on taking the company public.

If Murdoch had killed the story then presumbably Carreyrou and/or Fuisz would have taken it to the Post or somewhere else. 

I doubt the WSJ has a non-compete to the point where Carreyrou couldn't have consulted with another reporter or flat out quit and left the WSJ to report it on his own. 

Not to mention that there's no way the entire news division wouldn't have leaked that Murdoch squashed a story about one of his investments all over the place. 

It's weird to consider that Murdoch did something right with respect to journalistic ethics, but I think you can't underestimate that this was the Wall Street Journal. It's the gold standard for a SIGNIFICANT slice of the business world and Murdoch losing money on an investment in Theranos is a lot less damaging for him than people losing faith in the Wall Street Journal. It's "the Journal", its value and reputation in news reporting is worth far more than what Murdoch threw into Theranos. 

At the end of the day, Holmes clearly didn't grasp how important it was, because Schultz knew immediately there was a better chance of Murdoch endorsing Bernie Sanders than there was of him harming the reputation of the Wall Street Journal's news division. 

[larapu2000]

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

I wonder how many former employees keep Theranos on their resumes.  

According to the book 

Spoiler

Theranos wouldn't allow people to put Theranos on their resumes.  I believe they claimed that it would make them targets for industrial espionage.  They would search LinkedIn and the employees that listed the company name got in trouble.

 

[bluegirl147]

5 minutes ago, questionfear said:

It's weird to consider that Murdoch did something right with respect to journalistic ethics

This wasn't the only time he kept his nose out of editorial decisions with some of his media companies. Much to the chagrin of some people.

6 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

According to the book 

  Reveal spoiler

Theranos wouldn't allow people to put Theranos on their resumes.  I believe they claimed that it would make them targets for industrial espionage.  They would search LinkedIn and the employees that listed the company name got in trouble.

 

I meant after Theranos ceased to be. If  you were still a true believer after the fall began I can see other companies questioning your competence.  Although you might look loyal.

[Rootbeer]

14 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I understand that Theranos would pull out all the stops to intimidate people against speaking out, but isn't there legal protection for corporate whistleblowers, including exemption from NDAs? Tyler, Erika, and Stuart from BBT (forgot what his character's name is) would definitely fall into that category as former employees. And doesn't breach of doctor-patient confidentiality involve disclosing a patient's name? The doctor who talked to Carreyrou didn't identify any of the patients she was talking about, so she shouldn't have let Sunny intimidate her. (BTW, if that troll had come to my workplace making threats and demanding that I sign something

There is also the fact that the doctor was reporting something that adversely affected a patient's care.  If I were the patient, I would be absolutely fine with my doctor drawing attention to the kinds of errors Theranos was making, especially since multiple practitioners and patients had complained to Theranos and absolutely nothing happened and the same errors kept happening.  While talking to a reporter might be a little shady, the doctor was advocating on behalf of his patients whose care was affected by the negligence at Theranos.

[larapu2000]

6 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I meant after Theranos ceased to be. If  you were still a true believer after the fall began I can see other companies questioning your competence.  Although you might look loyal.

Ha, yes.  Sort of like Elizabeth's father with the Enron weight around his neck.  How could you ever look NOT like an idiot with that on your resume?  I would imagine it would probably depend on what role you had.  If you were in marketing, you wouldn't have had anything to do with defrauding investors.  But on the biomed side, if you weren't one of the whistleblowers, you look like an absolute asshole.

[Rootbeer]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

They actually did that in real life?!

There is not. The next episode is labeled as the series finale.

I too wish they would cover more of the fallout. 1 episode isn't enough time. I think they should have spent less time on the pre-Theranos days or done 10 eps so they could show all the fallout more in depth.

The leadership at Theranos encouraged F-U chanting directed at anyone who wasn't on board and drinking the Kool-Aid.  It wasn't just Carriou who got a F--- Y-- chant from the mob.

I figure the fallout will be season 2.  The Dropout podcast covered the whole thing through the verdict.

[Readingallnight]

2 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

 

I wonder how many former employees keep Theranos on their resumes.  

 

A friend was hiring for a position recently, late 2021, and interviewed someone who previously worked at Theranos. It was listed on his resume.  The job candidate worked in project management so in a normal company he would have had updates from the technical teams, but he described his experience there as 'atypical'. My friend said they guy was really vague about it and clearly didn't want to talk about it so he didn't press for more details, but he really wanted to take him out for a beer and say 'tell me EVERYTHING!'