S01.E04: Old White Men

[SonofaBiscuit]

Quote

Walgreens is enticed by Elizabeth to seal the deal on a new partnership with Theranos. Ian tries to investigate what's going on behind closed doors.

Airdate: 10 March 2022

[SlovakPrincess]

What this show does extremely well is emphasizing who gets listened to in certain sectors of big business (the arrogant, the manipulative, the powerful, the ones who promise a big payout and act like anything is possible if you just throw enough minions at the problem and browbeat them into results) ... and who gets ignored (people like Ian and Kevin ... ostensibly hired for their expertise and guidance, but shut down the second they deliver bad news).  How could so many otherwise smart people have allowed this to happen??? is the big question with Theranos, and kudos to the show for taking that assignment seriously.  

"Twitter isn't taking blood samples!"  THANK YOU, KEVIN.   And of course Elizabeth latches onto that shitty, annoying Mark Zuckerberg quote, of course she does.   It has always amazed me that they tried to run a medical device company dependent on getting the chemistry right like computer/app startups that were really about fun personal gadgets (Apple in the iPod/iPhone era), unnecessary websites (Facebook, Twitter), and apps for convenience (Uber).  

Oh, poor Ian!     

If anyone ever promised me snacks in the offices of a billion dollar company (with or without an NDA), and then handed me a Cliff bar and a glass of green juice ... I would be so freakin' annoyed and hangry.  LOL.  

I didn't know Alan Ruck (as Jay Rosen) over-identifying with Katy Perry's most cringe-worthy popular song was what I needed in my life, but here we are. 

Oh, Wade, you were so close to getting it right!  I laughed out loud at Jay's "this guy is fucking relentless" as Kevin chased down the car, trying desperately to stop Jay from talking Wade into this mistake.  

[AntFTW]

11 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

What this show does extremely well is emphasizing who gets listened to in certain sectors of big business (the arrogant, the manipulative, the powerful, the ones who promise a big payout and act like anything is possible if you just throw enough minions at the problem and browbeat them into results) ... and who gets ignored (people like Ian and Kevin ... ostensibly hired for their expertise and guidance, but shut down the second they deliver bad news).  How could so many otherwise smart people have allowed this to happen??? is the big question with Theranos, and kudos to the show for taking that assignment seriously.  

From my experience, when the money is flowing, nobody cares... and the person raising the alarm is just ignored. People figure that the alarm must be false because the money is still flowing or they don't want to believe it because they want to keep the money flowing.

18 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

I didn't know Alan Ruck (as Jay Rosen) over-identifying with Katy Perry's most cringe-worthy popular song was what I needed in my life, but here we are. 

I definitely got a chuckle out of that.

20 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Oh, Wade, you were so close to getting it right!  I laughed out loud at Jay's "this guy is fucking relentless" as Kevin chased down the car, trying desperately to stop Jay from talking Wade into this mistake.

Kevin's run is the most hilarious thing I've watch in a long time.

[bluegirl147]

45 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

"Twitter isn't taking blood samples!"  THANK YOU, KEVIN.   And of course Elizabeth latches onto that shitty, annoying Mark Zuckerberg quote, of course she does.   It has always amazed me that they tried to run a medical device company dependent on getting the chemistry right like computer/app startups that were really about fun personal gadgets (Apple in the iPod/iPhone era), unnecessary websites (Facebook, Twitter), and apps for convenience (Uber).  

Yes. They acted like they were a just a tech company. Elizabeth had no regard for the actual human beings that would use the machines and rely on them for accurate blood results.  

Each episode I despise quite a few of these characters even more.  It was chilling that Channing didn't care that machines were going to go into "wellness centers" without them being fully operational.  And then ratted Ian out to Elizabeth.  

Even knowing the outcome I'm still fascinated/horrified that otherwise intelligent people continue to fall for the bullshit Elizabeth is spewing.  Watching it happen you can see how cults are formed with a leader who is able to manipulate and charm at the same time.  And now we see the menacing tone she had with Ian.  It's been a while since I have actively been rooting so hard for someone's downfall. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by bluegirl147

[SlovakPrincess]

Yeah, Channing is one of the folks who comes off looking really bad in this.  He has enough scientific knowledge that he should believe Ian when Ian comes to him with serious concerns, but he seems to care more about the business side at this point!

[bluegirl147]

5 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Yeah, Channing is one of the folks who comes off looking really bad in this.  He has enough scientific knowledge that he should believe Ian when Ian comes to him with serious concerns, but he seems to care more about the business side at this point!

After the scandal he stopped teaching at the School of Engineering. I wonder if that was voluntary.  I'm guessing not.

[Sundazed]

22 minutes ago, SlovakPrincess said:

Yeah, Channing is one of the folks who comes off looking really bad in this.  He has enough scientific knowledge that he should believe Ian when Ian comes to him with serious concerns, but he seems to care more about the business side at this point!

Yep.  All he cares about are the millions he thinks he will make should Theranos go public.  The whole scandal really illustrates how people's morals and conscience become non-existent once potential wealth becomes a factor. 

[SonofaBiscuit]

Channing Robertson is kinda coming off as one of the bad guys here...I do not understand how this guy compared Elizabeth Holmes to the likes of Einstein, Mozart, Newton, etc. and seemed to truly believe she was some sort of genius. WTF! Channing has Ian right in front of him telling him that they're like 10 years away from the tech working as Elizabeth is promising, and he throws the poor guy under the bus. 

Wow, "Dr. Jay" was...strange. Hope he was fired after he convinced the other guy to partner with Theranos, but probably not.

Kevin Hunter was in the second episode of The Dropout podcast (entitled The Enforcer--his portion starts around 14:00 in), and he was another one that could see all of the big red flags. In that podcast, he did mention Sunny waiting for him outside the bathroom - that really happened, LOL! I'll put the rest under spoilers because I'm not sure if they are just skipping over all of this stuff or if it will be in Hulu's next episode.

Spoiler

Kevin wanted to see the lab and speak to either a Chief Medical Officer or a scientist. He wanted them all to test their blood on the Theranos machines and then run over to Stanford and have their labs run the same tests. But Elizabeth refused, saying that she "didn't trust Stanford's results." LOL LOL LOL. It sounds like he kept warning Walgreens against moving forward with Theranos, but obviously, they didn't listen to him. In the end, he left/quit because he didn't want to destroy his reputation if people perceived him as backing Theranos' product.

 

[Carolina Girl]

Holmes' complete panic at Kevin Hunter showing up should have been a serious red flag to Walgreens.   After all, Kevin had superior knowledge to the Walgreens execs about the FDA approval process.  (In the end, Theranos only received ONE FDA approval - to test for herpes - and even that later came under scrutiny).  According to Carreyou's book, prior to that meeting Holmes literally LIED to Walgreens and told them there were 192 tests that their "proprietary devices" could handle.  

I imagine events will start moving a little faster in the upcoming episodes, as we're starting to enter the age where Theranos starts getting national acclaim, magazine covers and profiles, and sweetheart interviews on CNBC.   But it is also the start of the harassment of employees and intimidation and threatening of fired ones.  Plus the Safeway and Walgreens disastrous wellness center fiascos, costing half a billion dollars between them.   

 

6 hours ago, SonofaBiscuit said:

Channing Robertson is kinda coming off as one of the bad guys here...I do not understand how this guy compared Elizabeth Holmes to the likes of Einstein, Mozart, Newton, etc. and seemed to truly believe she was some sort of genius. WTF! Channing has Ian right in front of him telling him that they're like 10 years away from the tech working as Elizabeth is promising, and he throws the poor guy under the bus. 

Wow, "Dr. Jay" was...strange. Hope he was fired after he convinced the other guy to partner with Theranos, but probably not.

Kevin Hunter was in the second episode of The Dropout podcast (entitled The Enforcer--his portion starts around 14:00 in), and he was another one that could see all of the big red flags. In that podcast, he did mention Sunny waiting for him outside the bathroom - that really happened, LOL! I'll put the rest under spoilers because I'm not sure if they are just skipping over all of this stuff or if it will be in Hulu's next episode.

  Hide contents

Kevin wanted to see the lab and speak to either a Chief Medical Officer or a scientist. He wanted them all to test their blood on the Theranos machines and then run over to Stanford and have their labs run the same tests. But Elizabeth refused, saying that she "didn't trust Stanford's results." LOL LOL LOL. It sounds like he kept warning Walgreens against moving forward with Theranos, but obviously, they didn't listen to him. In the end, he left/quit because he didn't want to destroy his reputation if people perceived him as backing Theranos' product.

 

Walgreens should have listened to Hunter.  And NOT that idiot "Dr. J."  

[AntFTW]

WE’RE FUCKING WALGREENS AND WE’RE WALKING! 😂🤣😂

I wouldn’t have sat there to sign another NDA. They would’ve had to mail it to me, wait for me to sign it, and come pick it up from the other side of the country if they really wanted it.

ANNNDD… if I were Ian and they assign me a “new desk” after rehiring me, I’d quit.

Edited March 11, 2022 by AntFTW

[chocolatine]

This show is so compelling, like a train wreck that you can't look away from. I'm one of the Kevins of the tech industry, and I have also been in situations when what I had to say was completely ignored because it wasn't what the business people wanted to hear. The stakes were never as high though since I've never worked in healthcare. I'm really disappointed in Dr. Jay though, he's a medical doctor and should absolutely have insisted on seeing the lab and doing the tests. I don't know if his depiction on the show is accurate, but he came across like a complete idiot being so impressed with the fancy offices and dinner at Fuki Sushi, and basing big decisions on a Katy Perry song.

Also really disappointed in Channing. I understand the lure of money and success, but did it never cross his mind that his reputation as a scientist/professor was on the line?

BTW, Mark Zuckerberg eventually backed off from his own "move fast and break things" mantra. Now it's just "move fast" - without breaking things.

[CrystalBlue]

I have started to truly hate Holmes with how she treated Ian.  I liked the scene where he was at home after he'd been fired and his two dogs' heads came up when the phone rang.

[lovinbob]

In an episode full of cringeworthy moments, Naveen Andrews took the cake with his creepy expression whilst accompanying Kevin Hunter to the bathroom. 

So many questions. Why did Ian stay? I guess because he needed health insurance? And why did the lab people who stood up for him not raise a fuss when he was no longer in the lab? 

Was the song parody at the Walgreens meeting real??

Did Dr J (🙄) really quote Katy Perry?

Sam Waterston as George Schultz? I’d never have chosen that in a million years, but he is definitely delivering the slightly befuddled old guy vibes. That aspect of the story is so compelling to me.

I keep thinking about all the rich white guys who bought her BS while minorities/outsiders (the Laurie metcalf character, Ana Arriola, Edmund Ku) called her out.  I wonder what the fallout was for Walgreens, and if it has impacted their bottom line.

Ugh! When lives are in the line, modeling your diagnostics related business after Apple and its Genius Bar is the height of irresponsible. I can’t believe these old white guys fell for it. 

[bluegirl147]

2 hours ago, lovinbob said:

I keep thinking about all the rich white guys who bought her BS while minorities/outsiders (the Laurie metcalf character, Ana Arriola, Edmund Ku) called her out

That has always been the thing throughout knowing about this the most fascinating thing.  Even I knew she was full of shit.  This particular episode really showed how stupid these men were.  She was playing them and it worked.  Dr. J (don't even remember his real name) after hearing that Katie Perry song went into like some manic trance trying to convince the Walgreen's guy (don't remember his name either) to partner with Theranos.   Channing dismissing Ian's concerns about the machines not being ready to use being used on actual human beings in a wellness center and not a lab.  And now we have George Schultz being flattered so he would join the board so he would use his influence with the FDA. While I 100% blame Elizabeth and Sunny I also blame the people who invested without doing their due diligence. There were red flags everywhere and they just ignored them.

10 hours ago, AntFTW said:

I wouldn’t have sat there to sign another NDA. They would’ve had to mail it to me, wait for me to sign it, and come pick it up from the other side of the country if they really wanted it.

Why were they signing NDAs anyways?  What if they refused?  They weren't doing business yet. And they were signing them without their lawyers looking at them first?

[AntFTW]

3 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Why were they signing NDAs anyways?  What if they refused?

I was thinking the same. I believe Sunny said "another NDA", implying that they have signed one before. Why would they need to sign another one?

That's why I said in my previous post, I wouldn't have sat there to sign an NDA. They couldn't force them to stay there and sign one.

3 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

They weren't doing business yet. And they were signing them without their lawyers looking at them first?

You would usually want NDAs before entering into business with another party because probing and vetting to see if the deal is a fit for both firms may require disclosing proprietary information from either side.

Speaking my own experience, I don't have lawyers look at NDAs before I sign them. I read them myself. Full disclosure, I'm not a lawyer. Generally, the language of an NDA is pretty straightforward and standard, and they're pretty easy to read and short.

[bluegirl147]

2 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

You would usually want NDAs before entering into business with another party because probing and vetting to see if the deal is a fit for both firms may require disclosing proprietary information from either side.

I get that but we have seen NDAs be used to cover up so much awful stuff.  NDAs have become so commonplace now employees that work for employers who have nothing that would be considered proprietary information are asked to sign them as a condition of employment. 

NDAs were a big reason Theranos lasted as long as it did. People who did know things weren't able to tell anyone. 

[AntFTW]

4 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

I get that but we have seen NDAs be used to cover up so much awful stuff.  NDAs have become so commonplace now employees that work for employers who have nothing that would be considered proprietary information are asked to sign them as a condition of employment. 

NDAs were a big reason Theranos lasted as long as it did. People who did know things weren't able to tell anyone. 

Tell me about it. I couldn't agree more.

[larapu2000]

34 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Why were they signing NDAs anyways?  What if they refused?  They weren't doing business yet. And they were signing them without their lawyers looking at them first?

Yeah, I work in a business where you have an NDA with every potential supplier/customer interaction, and those are vetted, negotiated, and signed before you even think about scheduling a meeting.  No way that WALGREEN'S is signing jack shit without a team of lawyers destroying that thing with red ink.  And the company I worked for didn't have IP that was close to anything as valuable as what the Einstein *would* have been had it been a real thing.

I can't believe this woman conned anyone.  Pitting Walgreen's and Safeway against each other was such a painfully obvious negotiating move, both parties should have told her to fuck off right then and there.

[AntFTW]

25 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

Yeah, I work in a business where you have an NDA with every potential supplier/customer interaction, and those are vetted, negotiated, and signed before you even think about scheduling a meeting.  No way that WALGREEN'S is signing jack shit without a team of lawyers destroying that thing with red ink.

Considering that they each signed NDAs, I'm assuming it was in their individual capacity. Only one signature is needed for the entity that is Walgreens.

In my line of work, we vet clients before deciding to do business with them. That usually requires the client to disclose proprietary and other sensitive information, like financial documents, to us. At that stage, we leave it to the client's discretion whether they would want us to sign an NDA, which we review before signing. At the stage where we decide to do business with a client, that's where we require they sign our NDA.

Edited March 11, 2022 by AntFTW

[AntFTW]

28 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

Pitting Walgreen's and Safeway against each other was such a painfully obvious negotiating move, both parties should have told her to fuck off right then and there.

I thought it was one step above. Holmes turned both of them down. She pitted Walgreens and Safeway against the unknown. Once the Walgreens team found out that she turned down Safeway, their heads were really spinning. If it's not Walgreens or Safeway, then who???

[SlovakPrincess]

If I were the Walgreens folks, I would’ve been like “NDA for what?? You’ve shown us shit!”  

[larapu2000]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

Considering that they each signed NDAs, I'm assuming it was in their individual capacity. Only one signature is needed for the entity that is Walgreens.

In my line of work, we vet clients before deciding to do business with them. That usually requires the client to disclose proprietary and other sensitive information, like financial documents, to us. At that stage, we leave it to the client's discretion whether they would want us to sign an NDA, which we review before signing. At the stage where we decide to do business with a client, that's where we require they sign our NDA.

Our NDAs captured us as individuals in the agreement, however-any top level executive in a company like Walgreen's isn't going to sign anything without a laywer.  They know better.  I wonder if this even happened as much as we are all discussing it, lol.

We were a supplier, so we were often vetted by customers before moving to an NDA stage, however, any information beyond what you could literally glean from our website required an NDA by our legal team, specifically pricing.  There were a few times where we would send documents with confidentiality clauses attached to them that served to protect the information, but in general, yeah-NDA all the way.  It's interesting to see how different companies handle it.  I worked for a food manufacturer.  You wouldn't think nacho cheese would require such legal protection but lol, it did!

Also, I forgot to say that Dr. Jay is an absolute douche.  I think everyone has had to work with a guy like that.

Edited March 11, 2022 by larapu2000

[Carolina Girl]

3 hours ago, AntFTW said:

People who did know things weren't able to tell anyone. 

It was primarily the bravery of two people - Tyler Schultz and Erika Cheung - who defied those NDAs and spoke to John Carreyrou.   Theranos started an almost if not actual criminal campaign of intimidation against Erika and as for Tyler - they sicced the lawyers from David Boies' firm on him at his grandfather's house.  They were nasty and mean and even George Schultz called them animals.    

2 hours ago, AntFTW said:

If it's not Walgreens or Safeway, then who???

She wanted them to think it was CVS.  

[AntFTW]

30 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

Our NDAs captured us as individuals in the agreement, however-any top level executive in a company like Walgreen's isn't going to sign anything without a laywer.

Maybe not if it’s in an individual capacity. If it’s in an individual capacity, it could really be their individual choice if they want to have a lawyer review it.

If they are signing on behalf of Walgreens, I’m sure they wouldn’t sign without the legal team reviewing it but since there were no lawyers present, I’m thinking it was in an individual capacity.

30 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

I wonder if this even happened as much as we are all discussing it, lol.

Could be added in for maximum drama lol

30 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

I worked for a food manufacturer.  You wouldn't think nacho cheese would require such legal protection but lol, it did!

😂🤣😂

30 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

We were a supplier, so we were often vetted by customers before moving to an NDA stage, however, any information beyond what you could literally glean from our website required an NDA by our legal team, specifically pricing.  There were a few times where we would send documents with confidentiality clauses attached to them that served to protect the information, but in general, yeah-NDA all the way.  It's interesting to see how different companies handle it.

I work in finance. Non-circumventions and NDAs ("NCNDA") and good relationships are the life blood of the business in a way, especially if the firm is more in an advisory role. Revenue is earned from fees, commissions, and bonuses. Sneaky clients will try to squeeze you out to save a few dollars unless you have an NCNDA. Even supposedly reputable clients can be sneaky.

Edited March 11, 2022 by AntFTW

[bluegirl147]

4 minutes ago, larapu2000 said:

Also, I forgot to say that Dr. Jay is an absolute douche.  I think everyone has had to work with a guy like that.

I  hope he paid a  high price eventually for insisting they invest and partner with Theranos.  

3 hours ago, larapu2000 said:

I can't believe this woman conned anyone.  Pitting Walgreen's and Safeway against each other was such a painfully obvious negotiating move, both parties should have told her to fuck off right then and there.

It was stuff like this that makes me really hate Elizabeth Holmes.  At this point she knows her invention is not working and she just keeps telling people it is.  This was not just some computer program or website. This was a medical device that real live people would be using.  Her disregard for the almost certainty that people would be hurt makes me convinced she was and is in fact a sociopath.  Contrast that to Ian's horror of them being placed in wellness centers and you can see why they didn't want him around.  

[AntFTW]

25 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

It was stuff like this that makes me really hate Elizabeth Holmes.  At this point she knows her invention is not working and she just keeps telling people it is.  This was not just some computer program or website. This was a medical device that real live people would be using.  Her disregard for the almost certainty that people would be hurt makes me convinced she was and is in fact a sociopath.  Contrast that to Ian's horror of them being placed in wellness centers and you can see why they didn't want him around.  

The thing that really gets me is that she likens herself to other entrepreneurs like Steve Jobs. However, these other entrepreneurs confronted problems that arose while Elizabeth seemed to ignore them. I have a hard time believing that Steve Jobs would have faked an iPod or iPhone demonstration.

At this point in the show, I'm not able figure out if she genuinely believed that she would get her device to eventually work by the deadlines of the commitments she had made. Did she genuinely believe that her machine would work? Or did she know it was never going to work and forged ahead anyway? I can't tell.

[bluegirl147]

30 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

At this point in the show, I'm not able figure out if she genuinely believed that she would get her device to eventually work by the deadlines of the commitments she had made. Did she genuinely believe that her machine would work? Or did she know it was never going to work and forged ahead anyway? I can't tell.

I feel the same way.  She was very driven.  Her original idea sounded great.  But the reality was it was great in theory but not so great in practice.  She made so many promises there was no way she was ever going to be able to deliver.  I wonder if she hadn't brought Sunny on board would she have failed sooner.

[Carolina Girl]

26 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

Did she genuinely believe that her machine would work?

She genuinely believed her IDEA would work, and refused to believe it.  But then remember that ridiculous "patch" that she patented, which would somehow diagnose and administer medication and which Dr. Phyllis Gardner told her wouldn't work?  Holmes got extremely indignant about being told she was, essentially, pursuing a pipe dream.

Meanwhile she was being told by EVERYONE that it would not.  She was obsessed about the size the Edison (and later the miniLab) would be that she put constraints on the engineers and technicians.  Instead of building a machine that WOULD work and then finding a way to "miniaturize" she went cart before the horse.  

Holmes can't be faulted for having the idea - Genalyte is working and perfecting similar technology using "blood drops" instead of venous puncture.  But she can be faulted for literally LYING about the progress and capabilities to raise money.   She lied to Walgreen's about FDA approval and the testing capabilities.  She LIED to investors that she had lucrative contracts with the Department of Defense.  She lied about EVERYTHING.  She even LIED about the uncle that died.  His death was her "inspiration" for Theranos.  Actually, it was not.  She was well into work on the idea before he died.   But it made a great story to tell.  

[chocolatine]

55 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I have a hard time believing that Steve Jobs would have faked an iPod or iPhone demonstration.

Steve Jobs did fake the first iPhone demo. The main differences were that Apple wasn't faking a demo for a healthcare device, and that Apple was already an established company so there was trust in their ability to build a working product.

[bluegirl147]

3 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Steve Jobs did fake the first iPhone demo. The main differences were that Apple wasn't faking a demo for a healthcare device, and that Apple was already an established company so there was trust in their ability to build a working product.

But did he sell the iPhone before all the bugs had been worked out?

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

But did he sell the iPhone before all the bugs had been worked out?

Yes, he did. It's virtually impossible to release a device without bugs, which is why there are frequent software updates. 

[AntFTW]

19 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Steve Jobs did fake the first iPhone demo. The main differences were that Apple wasn't faking a demo for a healthcare device, and that Apple was already an established company so there was trust in their ability to build a working product.

19 hours ago, bluegirl147 said:

But did he sell the iPhone before all the bugs had been worked out?

19 hours ago, chocolatine said:

Yes, he did. It's virtually impossible to release a device without bugs, which is why there are frequent software updates.

I do recall reading that Steve Jobs made commitments to Cingular/AT&T before Apple had worked out the kinks. I remember watching an interview with some of the team members that worked on the original iPhone and they discussed how anxious and terrified they were because the product still had major kinks to work out.

My ultimate point is that ideas were bounced around within Apple to fix the issues, and it doesn't seem that way with Theranos in the show. Correct me if I'm wrong but the iPhone did eventually work as it was demonstrated. I'm not seeing that sort of brainstorming in the show to fix the issues. It appears that Elizabeth gave herself and the company limits. She has the idea of what the device looks like on the outside, and is trying to make it work how she wants it to work on the inside. The device needs more components and more blood and more everything else to do at least some of the things she promised it would do. Doubling the size of the device and making it slightly bigger but still relatively small appears to be off the table. Turning the one-drop blood vial into a two-drop blood vial appears to be off the table.

It's hard to find the words but it's like she's convinced that she can cook a 20-pound turkey in a microwave oven without modifying the microwave oven.

Edited March 12, 2022 by AntFTW

[bluegirl147]

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

The device needs more components and more blood and more everything else to do at least some of the things she promised it would do.

Whenever I've had bloodwork, even for just one test, they have taken a vial of blood. If they are running multiple tests they take more than one vial. How anyone thought one drop would be enough to run the number of tests she was promising is beyond me.  And someone with more knowledge correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there some blood tests that need done by adding something to the blood or the blood has to be spun or something?

[chocolatine]

3 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

My ultimate point is that ideas were bounced around within Apple to fix the issues, it doesn't seem that way with Theranos in the show. Correct me if I'm wrong but the iPhone did eventually work as it was demonstrated. I'm not seeing that sort of brainstorming in the show to fix the issues. It appears that Elizabeth gave herself and the company limits. She has the idea of what the device looks like on the outside, and is trying to make it work how she wants it to work on the inside. The device needs more components and more blood and more everything else to do at least some of the things she promised it would do. Doubling the size of the device and making it slightly bigger but still relatively small appears to be off the table. Turning the one-drop blood vial into a two-drop blood vial appears to be off the table.

You are correct. I think Elizabeth and Sunny made a huge mistake siloing and alienating their R&D team. If they had allowed an open exchange of ideas, all of those brilliant minds working together may have been able to make a device that works, with some tradeoffs in terms of size and speed. But the two of them were more concerned about keeping up the charade to their board and prospective clients than about fixing the real problems.

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, Carolina Girl said:

It was primarily the bravery of two people - Tyler Schultz and Erika Cheung - who defied those NDAs and spoke to John Carreyrou. 

Have either of these people been on the show yet? I can't keep up with all the different characters lol.

[Andyourlittledog2]

28 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

Have either of these people been on the show yet? I can't keep up with all the different characters lol.

I think Erika is the new assistant who sits across from Ian's new desk. And Tyler is George Schultz' grandson/great grandson and would have become involved after GS was as we saw in the last scene. 

Spoiler

Tyler's coming forward actually estranged him from GS for a time as GS refused to believe Holmes was anything other than what she claimed.

 

Edited March 11, 2022 by Andyourlittledog2

[loki310]

I love how this show captures the “all you need is a good idea + tech and vast riches await” zeitgeist of the era. Every other day you were hearing about “disrupters” selling companies for hundreds of millions of dollars. People snapping up domain names. Everyone was worried about getting left behind and Holmes really preyed in those fears. 
 

Amanda has that voice down pat. 

[QQQQ]

21 hours ago, AntFTW said:

😂🤣😂

ANNNDD… if I were Ian and they assign me a “new desk” after rehiring me, I’d quit.

They gave him the Milton from Office Space treatment. 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2022 by QQQQ

[LuvMyShows]

2 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I think Erika is the new assistant who sits across from Ian's new desk. 

Unless the show is using pseudonyms, which I didn't think it was, then that's not who Erika is, cause the assistant's name was Cynthia.

[Andyourlittledog2]

32 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

Unless the show is using pseudonyms, which I didn't think it was, then that's not who Erika is, cause the assistant's name was Cynthia.

Really? I thought her name was Erika.  I stand corrected then. Sorry.

[lovinbob]

4 hours ago, Andyourlittledog2 said:

I think Erika is the new assistant who sits across from Ian's new desk. And Tyler is George Schultz' grandson/great grandson and would have become involved after GS was as we saw in the last scene. 

  Reveal spoiler

Tyler's coming forward actually estranged him from GS for a time as GS refused to believe Holmes was anything other than what she claimed.

 

Pretty sure neither Erika nor Tyler has been introduced yet. Erika worked in the lab, I think, not as an administrator. 

[kassandra8286]

2 hours ago, lovinbob said:

Pretty sure neither Erika nor Tyler has been introduced yet. Erika worked in the lab, I think, not as an administrator

George Schultz introduced Tyler, a student majoring in biology, to Holmes, which is how he ended up working there. Schultz didn't appear until the end of this week's episode. 

Erika Cheung started working at Theranos as a lab assistant in 2013. I think we're up to 2010 in the main story. Tyler and Erika's stories are more tied to the endgame and downfall of Theranos so they may not get much mention till the last few episodes. How many are there in this series, eight?

[AntFTW]

10 hours ago, lovinbob said:

Pretty sure neither Erika nor Tyler has been introduced yet. Erika worked in the lab, I think, not as an administrator. 

Yes, Erika was a lab tech or a lab associate.

[SunnyBeBe]

I’m so sick of Elizabeth’s bull crap.  I’m not sure how I’ll get through many more episodes until the jig is up.  

[chocolatine]

27 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I’m so sick of Elizabeth’s bull crap.  I’m not sure how I’ll get through many more episodes until the jig is up.  

There are only four more episodes.

[SunnyBeBe]

1 minute ago, chocolatine said:

There are only four more episodes.

Exactly.  Watching her lie, dodge, manipulate, con, etc, is exhausting,  I’ve had enough of it,  

[bluegirl147]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

Exactly.  Watching her lie, dodge, manipulate, con, etc, is exhausting,  I’ve had enough of it,  

It helps me get through the episodes knowing there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Also the acting is very good.  

[Rootbeer]

On 3/11/2022 at 3:58 PM, bluegirl147 said:

Whenever I've had bloodwork, even for just one test, they have taken a vial of blood. If they are running multiple tests they take more than one vial. How anyone thought one drop would be enough to run the number of tests she was promising is beyond me.  And someone with more knowledge correct me if I'm wrong but aren't there some blood tests that need done by adding something to the blood or the blood has to be spun or something?

Yes to both.  That's why, when blood is drawn for multiple tests, it is put into multiple tubes with different colored tops.  For example, if you're testing the blood's ability to clot, you don't want any artificial anticoagulant in the vial which would interfere with the test.  Meanwhile, many blood tests are run on machines which require the blood to flow freely through them.  So, those tests are drawn into tubes with a little anticoagulant solution in the bottom that mixes with the specimen and prevents it from clotting before the test can be done. Taking a single drop of blood and trying to do it both ways is not terribly realistic at this point in time.  It'll happen eventually, but it won't be someone like Elizabeth who does it.  If  she had even gotten a summer job in college working as a phlebotomist in a hospital lab, she'd have at least had some realistic notion of what was required.

Then again, the whole notion that people could have the machines in their homes and run tests themselves randomly and somehow discover heart disease or cancer before they had symptoms is completely ridiculous, too.  There are a couple of blood tests that can help with early diagnosis of cancer in specific situations, but they also require defined circumstances.  You can try to assess risk factors for heart disease like cholesterol, but it doesn't mean anything without context.

For me, one of Elizabeth's main issues is that she didn't know what she didn't know.  She dropped out of Stanford early in her second year.  Even if she did con her way into a graduate seminar, it seemed clear that she had only a very rudimentary understanding of fluid engineering which was key to the device she 'invented'.  We never saw her working with the actual technology at all; she didn't have even basic understanding of how  the thing could work.  It seemed like, from childhood, she felt that all she needed was an idea and she could start her own company and become wealthy.  She skipped over the part where she needed more than an idea, she needed a concept to explain how it might work.

Instead, she decided what the device would be without any consideration as to how feasible it was with current technology and expected real engineers and scientists to figure it out on her timeline, using her parameters.  Just because Gates, Jobs and Zuckerberg were able to start their companies without finishing college doesn't mean that Elizabeth was capable of it.  She seemed to feel that, if she wanted it bad enough, it would happen; completely unrealistic.

Edited March 13, 2022 by Rootbeer

[AntFTW]

3 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

For me, one of Elizabeth's main issues is that she didn't know what she didn't know.  She dropped out of Stanford early in her second year.  Even i she did con her way into a graduate seminar, it seemed clear that she had only a very rudimentary understanding of fluid engineering which was key to the device she 'invented'.  We never saw her working with the actual technology at all; she didn't have even basic understanding of how  the thing could work.  It seemed like, from childhood, she felt that all she needed was an idea and she could start her own company and become wealthy.  She skipped over the part where she needed more than an idea, she needed a concept to explain how it might work.

This hit home for me. As I mentioned in a previous post, I work in finance. I used to work in project finance. The amount of specificity I, personally, required to work on a project (e.g. building from the ground up a waste-to-energy plant, solar plant, oil and gas pipelines, etc) was monumental. I needed to see a path to the finish line before my team did anything. I used to say to potential clients "pretend I'm stupid, and explain the project to me from A to Z as if you're explaining to a 5 year old from all the inputs it takes to construct it and processes to operate this thing to me getting my money back." If you told me that you had approvals, permits, and contracts, I will ask for them and you had to be prepared to provide them. If you couldn't do that and give an explanation in a clear way that made sense, you get no funding. You have to show that you have, not just a basic, but an expert level of understanding. If you didn't have the necessary level of understanding, bring in someone who did and let that person do the talking. It just amazes how these smart and sophisticated people invested so much with little to no vetting. You can usually tell if someone's full of shit just by asking a few questions and seeing what their answer is.

Edited March 13, 2022 by AntFTW

[Carolina Girl]

On 3/11/2022 at 12:29 PM, chocolatine said:

Yes, he did. It's virtually impossible to release a device without bugs, which is why there are frequent software updates. 

The only real bug in the first iPhone (and I remember the line outside the downtown ATT store at 5:00 a.m. for a phone that wouldn’t be sold unril 5:00 P.m.) was in the set up.  You set the phones up online and I think there were problems with ATT’s server handling the traffic.