S01.E08: Episode 8

[AnimeMania]

During an intense confrontation, Andy comes to a frightening realization. A closer look at the horrific events in Oslo brings more truths to light.

Release Date: March 4, 2022

[peachmangosteen]

I would've rather watched a series about young Jane.

[Sarahsmile416]

2 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

I would've rather watched a series about young Jane.

Agreed - her story was incredibly compelling.  I would have rather seen more of her than Andy.    Toni Collette was incredible and easily the best part of the show even if older Jane wasn’t particularly interesting.  

[peachmangosteen]

I wasn't that impressed with Toni Collette tbh. I just found that all so boring lol.

I didn't mind Andy but the story of Jane and her family, Nick, the Army for a Changing World, etc. would have been much more interesting to me.

[The Pretender]

I agree Toni Collette did not impress me that much by the end of this. Something just felt off the entire series. I guess the twist at the very end (if you'd like to call it a twist? Jane being the culprit) sort of explained her on/off, or coldness, throughout the show. But it didn't explain that much. And are we to believe Andy just forgave her mom at the end there on the beach? I'm not sure I would ever feel safe around her. 

That she copied Nick (with the hand injury/slashing throat) almost to a T felt a bit ridiculous. Like what's the odds of that happening twice in ones lifetime. And I'm going to pretend I did not see Aaron Jeffrey in this, he will forever be Alex Ryan to me. That character is less traumatic to dislike. 

On one happy note - yay Mike lived. But keep driving man, stop answering the phone, don't ever look back pls. 

Looking forward to seeing Toni in The Staircase. She can be so bloody great when she gets the right material. Here's hoping. 

[backhometome]

On 3/6/2022 at 9:37 AM, peachmangosteen said:

I wasn't that impressed with Toni Collette tbh. I just found that all so boring lol.

I didn't mind Andy but the story of Jane and her family, Nick, the Army for a Changing World, etc. would have been much more interesting to me.

100% agree. I found Toni's part boring. I was much more interested in young Jane. 

[gesundheit]

Whew, it took them 8 hours to get to a "reveal" that seemed obvious from the beginning? That was exhausting. (Although did they get to the reveal that Andy was probably her grandfather's daughter? I couldn't tell if that was just implied, but granted I lost interest in the endless denouement.)

Fun to see the moments where young Jane got extra British, but that was a fun game the whole series. Barely an American in sight! Was this shot somewhere that necessitated that? (Though that wouldn't really make sense since it was a heavy mix of UK and Australian actors.)

[Soobs]

I love Toni Collette and also the actress who plays young Jane (Jessica Barden) who starred in End of the F*cking World, a show I liked as well. She's married to Henry Winkler's son.

I also assumed that Andy was product of incest which would have made Jane's actions more understandable. All the action star/running around Andy did seemed unrealistic and also got a little old. I would rather have seen rich people passive/aggressively attacking each other, lol! Also, poor Mrs. Barfield, worst name in TV history!

I  liked it overall and binged it in a couple of days.

 

[peachmangosteen]

OK so we do in fact think Jane’s dad molested her then? I figured but then they never really said so I was confused on whether we were supposed to think that or not.

[Anela]

I don't really know if I liked this. I did at first, but the rest of it was too much.

The dad and the boyfriend were creepy. It wouldn't surprise me if he had molested her. 

Andy should now inherit a lot of money. The "I don't want anything from them" thing always bugs me. Your mother was living in witness protection, to protect you from them, and your father. Take the bloody money, and do something good with it.

[gesundheit]

35 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

OK so we do in fact think Jane’s dad molested her then? I figured but then they never really said so I was confused on whether we were supposed to think that or not.

It seemed to be heavily implied throughout, but on the other hand it didn't seem like the type of show to leave things unsaid. Maybe we were meant to think that he'd molested her but not that Andy was his?

[peachmangosteen]

5 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Maybe we were meant to think that he'd molested her but not that Andy was his?

That’s what I thought.

Yea, this show doesn’t seem like one to be subtle so I am not sure we’re even supposed to think Dad molested Jane since they never explicitly said it.

[gesundheit]

1 hour ago, peachmangosteen said:

That’s what I thought.

Yea, this show doesn’t seem like one to be subtle so I am not sure we’re even supposed to think Dad molested Jane since they never explicitly said it.

Seems that this was clear in the book but they made a different choice for the show. Odd.

 

This article goes a little deeper. Frankly this other stuff sounds way more interesting. Interesting that show-Jane seems so much less sympathetic than book-Jane in terms of the historic details and what would've led her to make the choice she did toward both men. TV shows usually go for less ambiguity on a protagonist's morality.

Edited March 9, 2022 by gesundheit
Found more!

[DB in CMH]

On 3/8/2022 at 5:38 PM, Anela said:

I don't really know if I liked this. I did at first, but the rest of it was too much.

The dad and the boyfriend were creepy. It wouldn't surprise me if he had molested her. 

Andy should now inherit a lot of money. The "I don't want anything from them" thing always bugs me. Your mother was living in witness protection, to protect you from them, and your father. Take the bloody money, and do something good with it.

I think the first episode was easily the best. The further it went, the more plodding it became. By the end, I just didn't care anymore.

I generally enjoy Toni, and seeing Terry O'Quinn was a treat. The rest? Meh.

Bad acting, and bad dialogue. What a waste.

Edited March 12, 2022 by DB in CMH

[NeenerNeener]

On 3/8/2022 at 6:10 PM, gesundheit said:

It seemed to be heavily implied throughout

They did show him drugging her drink, a la Bill Cosby, in a flashback in episode 6 or 7. That kind of confirmed the suspicion I had that he was a bad daddy, but either Nick or Dear Old Dad could be the baby daddy as far as I can tell.

[peachmangosteen]

3 minutes ago, NeenerNeener said:

They did show him drugging her drink, a la Bill Cosby, in a flashback in episode 6 or 7. That kind of confirmed the suspicion I had that he was a bad daddy, but either Nick or Dear Old Dad could be the baby daddy as far as I can tell.

I thought they ended up implying that was him trying to kill the baby.

[NeenerNeener]

50 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

I thought they ended up implying that was him trying to kill the baby.

Since they never showed anything more of that evening I guess it can be interpreted either way. But if that was the intent it obviously didn't work or Andy wouldn't exist.

[peachmangosteen]

When Jane was talking to the woman that ended up killing the dad at the bar, she said he tried to kill her baby and they flashed back to the scene of him drugging her so that's why I thought they were implying that. And this is why I would have much rather watched a show about Jane instead of what we got lol.

[NeenerNeener]

2 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

When Jane was talking to the woman that ended up killing the dad at the bar, she said he tried to kill her baby and they flashed back to the scene of him drugging her so that's why I thought they were implying that.

Ahhhh! 

[raven]

On 3/12/2022 at 1:31 AM, DB in CMH said:

I think the first episode was easily the best. The further it went, the more plodding it became. By the end, I just didn't care anymore.

ITA.  I felt about this series as I did about Chapelwaite - interesting premise that went downhill quickly. 

I figured out the witness protection angle pretty quickly but it was hard to feel sympathy for Jane/Laura.  30 years and you don't tell your daughter the truth??  I can't get on board with that.  I figured at first she was some kind of high level assassin or something but no, she was only a witness against Lame Not-Christian-Bale.  That was IT??  THAT was her big secret?  OK, she set up her father to be killed but she had no way of knowing that would come out - and it didn't, until the very end when Andy Who Blabs spilled it over the phone.  Even then, it would be nearly impossible to prove.

I wasn't interested in young Jane either - the actress was very flat.  I get she was trying to portray that Jane was reserved and emotionally protecting herself from her father but again, I didn't really care.   She did classic good girl/bad guy/over her head involvement (snooze).  I wish it had been more of her playing a long game to get rid of her father, take over the business, something.  Instead she just got herself into a bad situation. 

I had sympathy for Andy at first because 1) her mother ran sooo hot and cold with her and 2) you find out your mother's been lying to you your whole life.  However, all of her various dumb decisions made me not care about her either.  

The only sympathetic characters were Charlie (RIP) - he really seemed to care - and Gordon, who disposed of a freaking BODY for Jane, which is never mentioned again.   

It was also very annoying that everyone seemed to jingle their car keys at one time or another. 

[Paloma]

15 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

15 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

They did show him drugging her drink, a la Bill Cosby, in a flashback in episode 6 or 7. That kind of confirmed the suspicion I had that he was a bad daddy, but either Nick or Dear Old Dad could be the baby daddy as far as I can tell.

I thought they ended up implying that was him trying to kill the baby.

 

14 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

When Jane was talking to the woman that ended up killing the dad at the bar, she said he tried to kill her baby and they flashed back to the scene of him drugging her so that's why I thought they were implying that.

 

14 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

But if that was the intent it obviously didn't work or Andy wouldn't exist.

At first I thought that Jane was telling the truth about her father trying to kill her baby, and that whatever he put in her drink was to induce a miscarriage or medical abortion (presumably as a pharma CEO he would have easy access to the necessary medication). And it's possible that's what he was doing and it didn't work. But now I think that Jane might have been lying to Grace (the woman at the bar) in order to motivate her to kill Jane's father, rather than just cover him with red dye (as I think the original plan was from Nick and the ACW). Remember that Grace's children were killed by her husband when he was messed up with Haldol, and that she blamed Jane's father. Grace was already part of the ACW plot to try to shame and expose the bad deeds of Jane's father, but Jane's talking about her father trying to kill her baby could have been intended to appeal to Grace's grief at not being able to protect her own children and to build her outrage so she would use the gun Jane gave her (in the switched handbag).

I do think Jane's father may have molested her; in any case he certainly had a creepy relationship with her, and he definitely controlled every aspect of her life. (And was there a suggestion that he had her mother killed after her mother tried to escape with the children?) So whether or not he molested her, she may have been desperate enough to escape his control to have him killed, especially after she met Nick. She was already desperate enough to slam her hand in the door in order to escape his plans for her career. 

[peachmangosteen]

1 hour ago, Paloma said:

But now I think that Jane might have been lying to Grace (the woman at the bar) in order to motivate her to kill Jane's father, rather than just cover him with red dye ...

Yes, I considered that, too. The way they had the actress play that scene does suggest imo that she could be lying. But we did see the dad put something in her drink. Although since that's from Jane's perspective then I guess it's possible it didn't actually happen.

[Paloma]

51 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

But we did see the dad put something in her drink. Although if that's from Jane's perspective then I guess it's possible it didn't actually happen.

If it was from Jane's perspective, she wouldn't have seen him put it in her drink (based on the camera angle). But if he did it and it was something to induce abortion, she probably would have gotten sick or had bleeding even though she didn't lose the baby. So that could have made her suspicious that he did something to get rid of the pregnancy (and certainly she knew that he would not want her to be pregnant). 

Also, if he did put something in her drink and she didn't know it, that equally supports the molestation theory. It's true that this show is not particularly subtle, but the decision to leave this open to doubt may have been intentional.

[peachmangosteen]

I’m gonna go with Martin molested her and he tried to kill her baby. Also, I think Andi is actually Nick’s daughter as opposed to Martin’s. 

[raven]

On 3/13/2022 at 11:15 AM, peachmangosteen said:

Also, I think Andi is actually Nick’s daughter as opposed to Martin’s. 

Jane did confirm to Andi that Nick was her father, though I guess if it were Martin, she probably would not want to tell Andi.  I never thought it was anyone but Nick.

I don't mind some ambiguity but I think too much was left vague.  Martin sure was a creepy, controlling asshole but I didn't get molestation vibes.   I did get a vibe that maybe his wife's death was suspicious.  For me, I just needed more with Jane's background.   She wanted to get away from dad, she didn't want to be his piano playing doll - I get that but something was missing to make me empathize with her choices more.   We could  have gotten more with that and less of Andi driving around.   Jane was close to Andrew, show me more of that.    What was fascinating about the "Army of Change"?  Was it just something to do? 

It all kind of fell flat.

ETA:  The very beginning of the movie (when I thought Jane might have been an assassin) reminded me of the movie The Long Kiss Goodnight, which I really recommend if you want the double life story with lots of action and great characters.

[peachmangosteen]

1 minute ago, raven said:

Jane did confirm to Andi that Nick was her father, though I guess if it were Martin, she probably would not want to tell Andi.  I never thought it was anyone but Nick.

I never thought Martin was the father either, even though I did suspect that he probably molested her. But yea, I don't think LauraJane would have told Andi that Martin was her father even if he was.

I so agree that too much was left ambiguous.

[Paloma]

4 hours ago, raven said:

What was fascinating about the "Army of Change"?  Was it just something to do? 

I think it was a combination of rebellion against her father and attraction to Nick. I'm dating myself here, but this part of the story seemed to have been at least partly inspired by the Patty Hearst story. For anyone who doesn't know, she was a 19-year-old college student from a rich and powerful family who was kidnapped in 1974 by the Symbionese Liberation Army, radicals who wanted to fight the government and capitalists. At some point after her kidnapping she became part of the group (possibly through brainwashing or "Stockholm Syndrome") and participated in a bank robbery. She traveled the country with the group for over the year with the FBI in pursuit. They were finally captured and she was sentenced to prison for 7 years, though she only served 2. She eventually went back to her normal life (and did not need to go into witness protection). 

[Kristi800]

Quote

ETA:  The very beginning of the movie (when I thought Jane might have been an assassin) reminded me of the movie The Long Kiss Goodnight, which I really recommend if you want the double life story with lots of action and great characters.

I thought she would have been an assassin as well - I guess she was, but for real. The way she held the knife in the beginning was not a novice, but didn't show her using it in the cult (it is what it is). They showed her stocking a gun blindfolding but other than that...did I miss something?

I guess Jane/Laura was also an Olympic-worthy ice skater (couldn't resist with Terry O'Quinn). 

[Gyproselee]

When Jane mentioned that Andy was 2 weeks late made me think Nick wasn't the father maybe.

[Armchair Critic]

I was expecting more from Toni Collette. It was so weird in the last episode when Andy asked to use her chapstick because Toni's lips looked so dry and cracked during this series.

But it's nice seeing Calum Worthy getting work, used to watch his Disney show Austin & Ally all the time with my kid.

[minamurray78]

On 3/15/2022 at 7:24 PM, Kristi800 said:

I thought she would have been an assassin as well - I guess she was, but for real. The way she held the knife in the beginning was not a novice, but didn't show her using it in the cult (it is what it is). They showed her stocking a gun blindfolding but other than that...did I miss something?

My mind went to "A History of Violence" with Viggo Mortensen. She did seem trained, none of which shows during her time in the Army of Change. I guess she had grit though.

[NaughtyKitty]

They mentioned in one of the episodes that Martin's pharma company made RU-486 which is the abortion pill. So, I assumed that was what he put in her drink. She saw him do it so maybe she didn't drink it.

[Tatum]

I just binge watched the series last week and read the book over the weekend. Those saying they would have preferred a more young-Jane-centric plot line would be interested to know the book is pretty split between 1986 and 2017, while the series pretty much relegates the 1988 storyline to Toni Collette flashbacks.

 

I didn't even bother to read the 2017 passages, since they were, in the beginning, so word for word close to the series. Huge divergence in 1986 though- the series basically stripped away all nuance to young Jane and Nick (who is way scarier in the book, and also described to look like Zac Efron by an adult Andy who sees his picture). 

 

In the series, Nick actually isn't that bad (yes, he murdered the poor kidnapped professor, but that was unpremeditated and he seemed to feel real regret about it). They also show him choking up over the reminder of Andrew's death and being alarmed to hear that Jane might be dead. And of course, trying to connect with young Andy but ultimately letting her go because that would be better for her.  He's rather romanticized in a way, and I am actually surprised the author was cool with this re-imagining of him. He is a bad, bad guy in the book who cares nothing for Jane, Andrew, or Andy, beyond what he can get out of them.

 

And the vibe I got from the series is that Toni Collette wanted him dead because he knew her secret (that she supplied the gun), which is dumb, because who cared if he figured it out, he could never prove it. Also, when she seems to fear Andy's safety, that seems more self serving- Nick never truly had any intention of hurting Andy, either as an adult or as a child, and he certainly had opportunity, which she knew about when she saw her daughter holding that coin. They seemed to clean up Nick's character and really make adult Jane unsympathetic and young Jane as bland as possible.

 

ETA: Also, I found it interesting that Old Nick and Young Nick didn't resemble each other that much, but both kind of resembled a low rent Josh Brolin- in different ways.  I also didn't think the casting was very good for Young Jane. The knocked it out of the park with Young Jasper and Old Jasper though.

Edited April 14, 2022 by Tatum