S01.E05: Ronin

[arc]

7 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

Yelena going on a (paid) killing spree? 

Honestly, it's overly complicated that Yelena has a grudge against Clint and she's being paid to kill him. I suppose the pool of people who could assassinate an Avenger, particularly a former assassin himself, is small, but if it were me I'd still want to hire someone who wouldn't have any personal feelings about the job.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

 

What's the difference between Ronin going on a killing spree and Yelena going on a (paid) killing spree? 

Right now, Yelena is not under any sort of mind control, she is choosing of her own free will to be a paid killer just like Clint chose of his own free will to be Ronin.  

For Yelena to condemn Clint for killing people would be a bit hypocritical.  She's no better than he is, just because she earns money for her kills. 

I really wasn’t thinking about what Yelena has done post-Endgame with that post. She may be a hypocrite but I don’t feel that we’ve seen enough to say she is. We haven’t seen her kill anyone and don’t know exactly what her relationship with Val is. 

Based on what we have seen of her when she wasn’t under mind control is does seem to have a moral code for what is acceptable. She was very critical of Natasha actions and she purposely protected Kate in the fight. She could have killed Clint from a distance but choose to fight him and she is looking into who hired her. I really can’t see her killing people the way we have saw Clint do as Ronin. 

You can definitely argue that just being a paid assassin means she is the same a Clint but, based on what was Endgame, Ronin was completely unconcerned with collateral damage. He mowed through everyone without mercy. Yelena may have been condemning him for simply being a killer or she may have been condemning him for the way he killed. 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

57 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

What's the difference between Ronin going on a killing spree and Yelena going on a (paid) killing spree?

Probably the same difference between what Wanda did in Westview and what Steve did in the final scenes of Endgame, because that's simply a matter of scale, isn't it?

I don't think anyone is saying that what Yelena is doing is better or more moral, so I'm not even sure what the argument is. I don't believe she thinks she's some arbiter of right and wrong, or even that she cares about Ronin's other victims that much. She was told that he was responsible for Natasha's death, and that's where the manipulation lies even if it does make it unnecessarily complicated. If anything, Yelena chose to spare Kate instead of just throwing her off of that roof or killing her when she was in her apartment. You could even argue that she didn't go up against Maya on purpose to get her out of the way. Her fight is with Barton, and she doesn't seem to be in that much of a hurry to get to it if she's talking about tourist attractions she wants to see. "This is my first time in New York!"

[ICantDoThatDave]

Yelena is The Best. I had no real interest in a Hawkeye show, & even less interest in the introduction of a knock-off Hawkeye, but I told a friend of mine to let me know if/when Yelena showed up (based on Black Widow).

And... well, Yelena is The Best.  I'll watch anything she appears in, from now on.

[johntfs]

On 12/16/2021 at 8:15 PM, Ottis said:

I really like this show, and yet, I don’t understand any motivations:

- Why is Clint afraid of Kingpin? Clint is an Avenger.

- Exactly who did Clint kill as Ronin? And how many were there? I thought they were all criminals, and if so, these vengeful relatives of criminals are getting a virtuous take.

- Why does Yelena think Clint killed Nat? Does anyone else think this? Wouldn’t even a little research turn up how upset Clint is about Nat’s death?

I loved the Netflix DD series, and hope the whole thing ports to Disney. 

Answering in the order asked:

Clint's afraid of Kingpin because the Avengers aren't really a thing right now and Kingpin is absolutely the kind of person who would send a bunch of people to his house and burn it down with his wife and children screaming inside as the fire cooked them alive.

A bunch of people.  Figure the scene in Tokyo occurred on a weekly/bi-weekly basis.  Also figure since the family that crimes together stays together or something, Clint probably wiped out a bunch of those vengeful relatives in the course of being Ronin.

Presumably Val from Black Widow and Falcon and the Winter Soldier showed Yelena something that counted as proof.  If nothing else just the basics of getting the Soul Stone (one you love must die to do it) and the fact that Clint and Nastasha went there and only Clint returned - with the Soul Stone - would be suggestive that Clint killed her.  And killers can absolutely be upset about killing somebody.

I never really watched Daredevil except for the second season with Frank Castle and the ninjas.  I guess I really do need to watch at least the first season of it.

 

[Sandman]

On 12/15/2021 at 9:27 AM, Cobalt Stargazer said:

He at least knows Yelena's name, since when Kate mentioned her in the Uber (and how adorable was it that she thought to call an Uber to pick them up?) he was aware that Nat had a sister. I wonder what he thinks now, why Yelena wants to kill him. If anything, I'd think the idea that he killed his best friend would hurt him more than anything Maya could do, because in some ways Nat is still with him, even if as a ghost.

I had the strong impression, partly from Clint's "Well, that tracks..." expression when Kate told him it was Natasha's sister, that Clint figures that Yelena holds him responsible for Natasha's death. (After all, Clint holds himself responsible.) I think he figures she has a right to want him dead. Frankly, I'm still a little surprise that Yelena actually has (or needs) an assignment. But I guess professional contract killers can't afford personal vendettas.

[johntfs]

9 hours ago, Sandman said:

I had the strong impression, partly from Clint's "Well, that tracks..." expression when Kate told him it was Natasha's sister, that Clint figures that Yelena holds him responsible for Natasha's death. (After all, Clint holds himself responsible.) I think he figures she has a right to want him dead. Frankly, I'm still a little surprise that Yelena actually has (or needs) an assignment. But I guess professional contract killers can't afford personal vendettas.

I think you're coming at the "can't afford" angle from the wrong direction.  It's not Yelena with that problem, it's Val, her handler.  Remember the first episode of the series.  Clint Barton is known and recognizable as one of the heroes who literally saved the universe.  Even more he and his cohorts reversed the Snap.  He and the rest of the Avengers brought wives, husbands, siblings, parents children and friends back from death to rejoin the living.

As Maya bears out, criminals are people too.  So, figure there's a lot of mercenaries and killers that would balk at the idea of killing a universe hero like Clint Barton.  Figure that the Venn diagram of people both willing to do that (and possessing the high skill set to do that) is really smart.  Especially when you add the likely complicating that said killing has to be as close to "right the hell now" as possible (because the client demands it).

Figure somebody reached out to Val with "Clint Barton needs to die right the hell now."  So Val sent the only person with the skillset and motive to do that, Yelena, Natasha's grieving sister.

Of course Val is taking a chance that Clint won't somehow talk Yelena down, but that's a chance she'll have to take.

[Kel Varnsen]

On 12/16/2021 at 9:15 PM, Ottis said:

Why does Yelena think Clint killed Nat? Does anyone else think this? Wouldn’t even a little research turn up how upset Clint is about Nat’s death?

What kind of research would she do? It is not like Clint is really in the public eye. And I would actually be surprised if he made any kind of statement about what happened when they got the soul stone.

On 12/18/2021 at 1:29 AM, ICantDoThatDave said:

And... well, Yelena is The Best.  I'll watch anything she appears in, from now on.

She really is the best. I love her obsession with what is and isn't cool. Florence Pugh really nails the character too, since the Yelena we saw in this episode is like the same as the one in BW but also a person who lost 5 years due to the blip. She might be my favourite MCU character (before this it was probably Okoye).

On 12/18/2021 at 1:24 PM, johntfs said:

 bunch of people.  Figure the scene in Tokyo occurred on a weekly/bi-weekly basis.  Also figure since the family that crimes together stays together or something, Clint probably wiped out a bunch of those vengeful relatives in the course of being Ronin.

Weekly would seem like a bit much. Not because Clint would hold off on killing people, but because he was also a SHIELD agent. He would absolutely spend a bunch of time doing surveillance and gathering intelligence before going on a murder spree. Both to find the best time and placeto attack and to make sure he was murdering the right people.

[paigow]

Waiting for Kate to use some gymnastics against Kingpin and do a Natasha landing complete with hair flip while Yelena watches in disbelief and anger...

[Ailianna]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Waiting for Kate to use some gymnastics against Kingpin and do a Natasha landing complete with hair flip while Yelena watches in disbelief and anger...

Why would Yelena be angry? I think she'd be more likely to laugh and make fun, just as she did Natasha. As she pointed out, they ALL seem to need to do it.

[bethy]

I noticed this, too, but some people have noted that Yelena actually did Natasha's pose:

 

[Dandesun]

18 hours ago, bethy said:

I noticed this, too, but some people have noted that Yelena actually did Natasha's pose:

 

"Such a poser..."

[Ottis]

On 12/19/2021 at 12:37 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

What kind of research would she do? It is not like Clint is really in the public eye. And I would actually be surprised if he made any kind of statement about what happened when they got the soul stone.

The same research she did to know all about Kate Bishop. I mean, an Avenger has to be more in the public eye than Kate, and Yelena actually bragged about how much she knew about Kate.

Surely at some point, it became known that Clint and Natasha were friends and her death upset him. *How* she died wouldn't matter. If Clint actually killed Natasha (who was his friend) as Yelena thinks, why would Clint be so devastated by her death? That's a starting point.

 

 

 

[Cobalt Stargazer]

On 12/19/2021 at 2:37 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Florence Pugh really nails the character too, since the Yelena we saw in this episode is like the same as the one in BW but also a person who lost 5 years due to the blip. She might be my favourite MCU character (before this it was probably Okoye).

This. Even when she was talking about braising reindeer meat and laughing about how funny Kate was in thinking she could have killed her on the roof, there's something jagged under Yelena's humor, edges that can cut. All she did was go to wash her hands, and then she blinked and it was five years later. These are the real repercussions of the Snap, the people whose lives were thrown into chaos on their return.

 

1 hour ago, Ottis said:

Surely at some point, it became known that Clint and Natasha were friends and her death upset him. *How* she died wouldn't matter. If Clint actually killed Natasha (who was his friend) as Yelena thinks, why would Clint be so devastated by her death? That's a starting point.

Kate did try to tell Yelena that Clint and Nat had been friends, and then she finds out that it's supposed to be a contract hit. "If somebody is telling you that Clint is a bad guy, you might ask what kind of person hired you." I have to wonder if she doesn't know about the memorial plaque, the one that marks where the Avengers first got together during the Chitauri attack, or if she does if she even cares. Her sole focus is that Natasha is dead, and she really seems to think everything Kate says is either an excuse or a lie. They really should have a scene in the next episode where Clint or Kate - possibly both - shows her the plaque, that her sister hasn't been forgotten and still gets the respect she deserved.

[paigow]

Yelena has not had a chance to tour NYC yet, so likely that she has no idea about the plaque. And probably does not know about getting discounted tickets for Rogers! at TKTS

[Sandman]

On 12/17/2021 at 8:15 PM, Dani said:

... based on what was Endgame, Ronin was completely unconcerned with collateral damage. He mowed through everyone without mercy. Yelena may have been condemning him for simply being a killer or she may have been condemning him for the way he killed. 

Was he, though? I don't think we saw him mowing down bystanders; I think he did cut through a lot of mobster hirelings and (possible) secondary targets. I think Yelena condemns him not for being a killer in general, but for being her sister's killer (as she sees it) specifically.

On 12/19/2021 at 10:37 AM, johntfs said:

I think you're coming at the "can't afford" angle from the wrong direction.  It's not Yelena with that problem, it's Val, her handler. 

I may well be wrong, but just to be clear, I was thinking of the practicalities (or what I assume would be the practicalities) of being a contract killer in general: a contractor who can't be trusted not to put a personal score before the contracted mission would soon run out of employment prospects.

Also, not entirely unrelatedly, I think Val may be, in fact, completely batshit crazy. (Which might be a problem on a whole different scale, if true.)

Edited December 20, 2021 by Sandman

[johntfs]

2 hours ago, Sandman said:

I may well be wrong, but just to be clear, I was thinking of the practicalities (or what I assume would be the practicalities) of being a contract killer in general: a contractor who can't be trusted not to put a personal score before the contracted mission would soon run out of employment prospects.

Also, not entirely unrelatedly, I think Val may be, in fact, completely batshit crazy. (Which might be a problem on a whole different scale, if true.)

I just went back and watched that scene with Yelena and Val at Natasha's grave.  There's no indication that Yelena was putting her personal score ahead of missions.  Also, Yelena is apparently not a contract killer.  At one point she demands a raise.  So Yelena is a salaried employee with Val's organization.

Meanwhile Yelena actually notes that Val approaching her while she's on holiday time and doing it at her sister's grave makes Val look desperate.  Maybe Val is looking desperate because she is desperate at that point.

[Sakura12]

Do we know when Yelena was at Nat's grave? Maybe Eleanor called Val to take care of Clint. Val then went to Nat's grave to tell Yelena that Clint killed Natasha and she's been hired to kill him.

[paigow]

22 hours ago, johntfs said:

 Also, Yelena is apparently not a contract killer.  At one point she demands a raise.  So Yelena is a salaried employee with Val's organization.

Val is using Golden Corral as a business model... Unlimited kills for one low price, but weekends cost more...

[Cobalt Stargazer]

45 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Do we know when Yelena was at Nat's grave?

With the way Val was sneezing and blowing her nose, I was taking it for pollen season, because she says something about being allergic to the Midwest. And Yelena was wearing a coat, so the weather was turning colder. She might have just gotten this 'assignment' and went right to New York.

[Guest]

On 12/20/2021 at 3:40 PM, Sandman said:

Was he, though? I don't think we saw him mowing down bystanders; I think he did cut through a lot of mobster hirelings and (possible) secondary targets. I think Yelena condemns him not for being a killer in general, but for being her sister's killer (as she sees it) specifically.

I wasn’t talking about bystanders although we know from his time in SHIELD that he is willing to harm bystanders to achieve his goal. By collateral damage I meant people who weren’t there entirely of their own free will or were at the lower levels and hadn’t don’t anything to deserve to be killed.  Let’s say there was an undercover cop embedded in the organization or an underling in their first day in the organization they would be just as dead as the leaders. 

I just can’t see it being just about Natasha given how she talked about Dreykov’s daughter. She has a moral line that was there before Natasha died. Just based on what she say’s in Black Widow, Clint’s actions in Budapest would be enough for her to condemn him. 

[Ailianna]

9 hours ago, Dani said:

Just based on what she say’s in Black Widow, Clint’s actions in Budapest would be enough for her to condemn him.

Then she should be condemning Natasha too, and she clearly doesn't. I think her grief is affecting her judgment even when she's acting so cool and being so Yelena.

[Guest]

9 hours ago, Ailianna said:

Then she should be condemning Natasha too, and she clearly doesn't. I think her grief is affecting her judgment even when she's acting so cool and being so Yelena.

She was for most of the movie. She was very critical of Natasha’s actions. She moved past it with Natasha based on what happens in the movie and I am sure she will eventually do the same with Clint. My point is that her judgement of Clint for what he has done as Ronin is completely consistent with what she says in Black Widow. 

[anna0852]

I saw shades of Melina in Yelena as she was telling Kate to eat the mac and cheese.

[snarktini]

On 12/16/2021 at 1:24 PM, johntfs said:

As for Eleanor, I can't recall when she made her weird phone call, but if it was after she official learned that Kate was "on a case" with Clint Barton, she might well have hired Yelena to end Clint Barton to keep her daughter out of whatever dangerous case Barton had roped her into.

I would honestly believe Eleanor put a hit on Clint simply to separate him from Kate, which would both keep Kate safe and keep them from investigating secrets. There may be more strategic Kingpin-y reasons but I'd buy that as a good enough reason for her.

Oh, and when Jack sailed out with a "I've never worked a day in my life" and I'm being framed", my assessment shifted from from co-conspirator to patsy. Uncle Armand warned him away from getting involved.

Basically I haven't trusted Eleanor from the first episode so I think the worst of her.

On 12/18/2021 at 9:36 PM, Sandman said:

I had the strong impression, partly from Clint's "Well, that tracks..." expression when Kate told him it was Natasha's sister, that Clint figures that Yelena holds him responsible for Natasha's death. (After all, Clint holds himself responsible.) I think he figures she has a right to want him dead. Frankly, I'm still a little surprise that Yelena actually has (or needs) an assignment. But I guess professional contract killers can't afford personal vendettas.

I think we shouldn't overlook how much Clint blames himself and how even he could explain it, it wouldn't necessarily convince Yelena. Or himself. He didn't kill Natasha and he couldn't have stopped her, but she did die in his place. In a way, she died because of him. (Which is a lousy lens to look through because it takes away her agency, her choice to make a sacrifice to save him and the world.) That's a hard thing to live with. Not to mention all the actual deaths he has caused.

[Sandman]

On 1/9/2022 at 7:59 PM, snarktini said:

I think we shouldn't overlook how much Clint blames himself and how even he could explain it, it wouldn't necessarily convince Yelena. Or himself. He didn't kill Natasha and he couldn't have stopped her, but she did die in his place. In a way, she died because of him. (Which is a lousy lens to look through because it takes away her agency, her choice to make a sacrifice to save him and the world.) That's a hard thing to live with. Not to mention all the actual deaths he has caused.

I liked the scene where Yelena and Clint talked about how Natasha died in part because it was very clear to the audience, and I think to Yelena, just now much Clint blames himself. He didn't try to make excuses; he tried to let Yelena know he shared her grief and he expressed his regret and sorrow the best way he could, and she was able to believe him. (I think the scene did a pretty good job of not telegraphing a happy conclusion.)

But Clint likely has two simultaneous and contradictory feelings about Natasha's choice: I think he genuinely loves and respects her enough not to want to take the choice away from her -- and he reminds Yelena that nobody could have made Natasha do anything, anyway -- but not being able to follow through on his choice to preserve her life haunts him. The tension between those two ideas is part of what makes his survivor's guilt so painful.

[GreyBunny]

Haven’t gotten around to seeing Black Widow and, after Yelena’s appearance here, I don’t want to. She’s annoying, charmless, and somewhat dumb. The mac & cheese scene went on too long and she wasn’t nearly cool enough to pull it off. Ugh. 

[Raja]

On 12/16/2021 at 5:56 PM, dwmarch said:

The behind the scenes explanation that I have seen is that the writers of this show were not aware of the stinger scene in Black Widow where Yelena is recruited by Val.

No it the post credits still works since for Val it is a business, Yelena can assume that she didn't just decide to kill Barton but rather was just a paid cutout between the client and the hitman. 

On 12/16/2021 at 5:34 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't think they will kill Clint Barton in the last episode. I think he can retire and pass the mantel to Kate, whether or not Jeremy Renner is still on Disney's payroll.  Clint is nearly deaf and getting not getting any younger... retirement makes the most sense. 

And add 5 years more than half of the population. That is a full  quarter of a fighting man's career if he stayed long enough for retirement age in America, other nations  let their soldiers go pension out with even less than 20 years.

On 12/17/2021 at 4:48 PM, arc said:

Honestly, it's overly complicated that Yelena has a grudge against Clint and she's being paid to kill him. I suppose the pool of people who could assassinate an Avenger, particularly a former assassin himself, is small, but if it were me I'd still want to hire someone who wouldn't have any personal feelings about the job.

The problem comes with the target being an Avenger and it may be harder to contract out a hit if your killers are worried that Thor will come avenging afterwards.  Getting Yelena who might be up to murder and suicide by god of thunder in order to avenge her sister might be the only mercenary willing to take up such a mission.