S19.E32: Sean Spicer; Caitlin Flanagan; Chris Coons

[PrincessPurrsALot]

Quote

This week, Bill opens the show by opening Sean Spicer, former Press Secretary to President Trump. For the panel, he is joined by Caitlin Flanagan, staff writer at The Atlantic, and Sen. Chris Coons, Democratic U.S. Senator from Delaware.

Original air date 2021.10.29

[deirdra]

Bill, Why bother having guests if you are going to interrupt them in the middle of every sentence to give them your opinion?

[letter8358]

Eeek! Sean Spicer! Change the channel....!

[tessaray]

Huh. Bill actually pushed back against Spicer. He did give him the "you're so brave for coming on"at the end, so deducting points for that but it was nice to see him awake for a change.

Eta: Ugh, mixing Covid misinformation and his personal health opinions again. 

[bobbyjoe]

Bill’s guests this week:  Sean Spicer; Caitlin Flanagan; Chris Coons

Wow, that sure is truly an incredibly exciting lineup of guests ya got there, Bill.  

The only way I can imagine this being a more enticing lineup is if it read like this:

Bill’s guests this week:   Paint drying; Your next-door neighbors’ slides of their trip to Branson, Missouri; An old test pattern slide that says “Sorry We’re Having Technical Difficulties”

Edited October 30, 2021 by bobbyjoe

[aghst]

Maher is a covidiot.

vaccine or mask?  It is both you dolt.

Europe has very high vaccination rates, much higher than the US.  Several countries like Denmark and The Netherlands lifted measures like masking.

Guess what?  Cases are rising again, just as winter is arriving.  They’re talking about imposing measures again.

then Bill claiming natural immunity is better than vaccinated immunity.  No, that isn’t true, there are conflicting studies.  And people who’ve gotten covid have different levels of immunity.

then the moronic writer saying first responders like cops and firemen shouldn’t have to get vaccinated even though they’re getting close to other people.  Yeah they don’t have to get vaccinated.  But then they have to get other jobs.  No it’s not good enough if they don’t feel like it, just as health care workers and people who work in nursing homes can’t decide they don’t feel like it and continue to work close to the elderly and sick, vulnerable people.

So fuck off Caitlin Flanagan.

Edited October 30, 2021 by aghst

[revbfc]

Sean isn’t just a world-renowned for being a liar, he’s terrible at lying, so bringing him in is already a waste of time.  Add to that the “Stolen election,” bullshit (that Bill was unprepared to properly push back on), and it only helped Trump.

Why do I say this?  Because Bill agreed to argue about the minutiae, and not Sean’s barely camouflaged  thesis: that Trump had the right to overthrow the government.  That’s what people like Sean believe.  If Bill is too weak to recognize that, he should retire.

 

[LADreamr]

Sean Spicer is still prone to tantrums, instead of having an adult conversation, clearly.  So sick of Bill telling conservatives they are brave to come into a hostile environment.  What's hostile about it?  He rolls out the red carpet for them, and they use the show as a place to spew their talking points.  It's a pretty friendly environment.  

[DoctorAtomic]

I liked Bill at least trying with Spicer - there's nothing wrong with criticism of the spending bill, but if all you're saying is that everything is going to destroy the country all the time, then you're not helping either. 

We're not going to regret Afghanistan for generations, ffs. Please. If Biden didn't withdraw troops, they'd all be screeching in the streets about him 'trampling' over the previous administration deal or some such bloviation.

I don't disagree, but wow Reagan screwed up this country. Talk about legacy. 

Ok once again - no one is teaching critical race theory in K - 12. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[iMonrey]

OMG Sean Spicer? What next? Tucker Carlson? It was all I could do to get through that interview with Spicer spewing all sorts of right wing propaganda. I couldn't believe he had the colossal gall to say Democrats wanted to pack the courts, as if that isn't something Republicans have been doing the last eight years. I was so angry Bill just let that one go. The election crap hinges on a technicality, that Pennsylvania and other states changed election laws to accommodate the pandemic. But those changes were held up in court. Repeatedly. Trump and his lackies may not agree with the courts' decisions but they cannot re-litigate them forever. It's over.

Quote

Then the moronic writer saying first responders like cops and firemen shouldn’t have to get vaccinated even though they’re getting close to other people.

I get that they are risking their lives doing their jobs, but they are also risking other peoples' lives. Does she not get that? It's a pretty basic concept. This isn't about forcing them to get immunized to protect themselves, it's about protecting the people they come into contact with. I don't think Flanagan even understands how vaccines work!

And what the hell is heroic masculinity? WTF? What is she saying? Men should be allowed to be violent? I'm not aware of anyone teaching boys they aren't allowed to be heroes. What planet is this woman living on? I get Bill's frustration over having to wear a mask even after getting the vaccine, but the discussion just devolved into nonsense thanks to her.

And, once again folks, the final new rule is yet another rant about wokeness. Because of course it is. Bill is obsessed with the notion that Democrats lose elections because of wokeness, but there is zero evidence to back that up. Voters still care about basic pocketbook issues like healthcare and the economy, poll after poll has shown that. Nobody is basing their vote on critical race theory. It doesn't even make the list. So shut up already, Bill.

[arachne]

"Sticks and stones may break my bones ..." Really, Bill, you had to go there? No, they don't teach that in kindergarten anymore. Because words can do irreparable damage. 

On the plus side, I appreciate how Bill stood up to Sean Spicer, not taking any of his bs.

I felt a little squicked out by the discussion of "heroic masculinity." Maybe my definition of "heroic" differs from Bill or Caitlin's. 

 

[tessaray]

I do think little boys get grief for just being boys. They get medicated far too often and older boys are falling behind in academics. But that heroic masculinity crap was just kinda embarrassing to sit through. 

[aghst]

Yeah heroic masculinity.🙄

Is she trying to sell a book or is she one of those women who seek out partners who are much bigger and taller than her, because she has daddy issues and fantasies about being rescued and swept off her feet by dashing behemoths like in fairy tales?

Grow up Caitlin.  Get therapy.

 

 

[heatherchandler]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

 

I get that they are risking their lives doing their jobs, but they are also risking other peoples' lives. Does she not get that? It's a pretty basic concept. This isn't about forcing them to get immunized to protect themselves, it's about protecting the people they come into contact with. I don't think Flanagan even understands how vaccines work!

 

But I get get her point, since being vaccinated I can still get covid, and spread covid, so if I was a first responder, who would I be keeping safe?  Just myself, possibly, from getting deathly ill.  And that’s not even certain.

Edited October 30, 2021 by heatherchandler

[BrownBear2012]

5 hours ago, LADreamr said:

Sean Spicer is still prone to tantrums, instead of having an adult conversation, clearly.  So sick of Bill telling conservatives they are brave to come into a hostile environment.  What's hostile about it?  He rolls out the red carpet for them, and they use the show as a place to spew their talking points.  It's a pretty friendly environment.  

I've been saying that for several years. But Sean Spicer??? Really? Isn't he a walking talking joke? Who's next? Stephen Miller? Peter Navarro? Jared Kushner? Donny Jr.?

[BrownBear2012]

13 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

But I get get her point, since being vaccinated I can still get covid, and spread covid, so if I was a first responder, who would I be keeping safe?  Just myself, possibly, from getting deathly ill.  And that’s not even certain.

If you are vaccinated you can get COVID but the symptoms are far less serious and won't require hospitalization. If you wear a mask, you will be protecting others from getting it. When did we get so selfish and stupid in this country? The fact that first responders and people who work in hospitals and healthcare facilities won't mask or get vaxxed because of their "freedoms" sickens me. The new Republican Party and those that deciminate misinformation and conspiracy theories are responsible for this mess. Bill not being outraged by this and not pushing back at Spicer and Flanagan is disgusting and shows how far right he has gone...so desperate to get right wing people on his show that he seems to be afraid of debating them. Maybe if Bill was the parent of a child that had an auto iummune disease or disorder he would feel compelled to push back at these people and be outraged by their words and behavior. 

Edited October 30, 2021 by BrownBear2012

[aghst]

25 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

But I get get her point, since being vaccinated I can still get covid, and spread covid, so if I was a first responder, who would I be keeping safe?  Just myself, possibly, from getting deathly ill.  And that’s not even certain.

You are far less likely to get seriously ill or killed with vaccination.

You are also far less likely to spread.  Because most of the virus you shed will be coated with antibodies so those viruses will not be "viable" as virus shed by an unvaccinated person.

But she was referring to people refusing to get vaccinated in the first place.

Covid is the leading cause of first responder deaths in the past year to two years.  Way more than shootings of cops.

Police can refuse to get vaccinated and find another job.  That's not forcing anything.  That's them making a choice.  They want to value their "freedom" or whatever reason they have for not getting vaccinated more than their jobs.

De Santis is offering $5000 for cops to move down to FL.  OK, that may cover your moving expenses.  But if you're a cop in a big city like LA or Chicago, where some tiny minority of vocal cops are saying they won't get vaccinated or even disclose their vaccination status in the case of Chicago cops, they can move to FL.  Chances are though, their salaries would go down but again it's TOTALLY their CHOICE!

 

[heatherchandler]

11 minutes ago, BrownBear2012 said:

If you are vaccinated you can get COVID but the symptoms are far less serious and won't require hospitalization. If you wear a mask, you will be protecting others from getting it. When did we get so selfish and stupid in this country? The fact that first responders and people who work in hospitals and healthcare facilities won't mask or get vaxxed because of their "freedoms" sickens me. The new Republican Party and those that deciminate misinformation and conspiracy theories are responsible for this mess. Bill not being outraged by this and not pushing back at Spicer and Flanagan is disgusting and shows how far right he has gone...so desperate to get right wing people on his show that he seems to be afraid of debating them. Maybe if Bill was the parent of a child that had an auto iummune disease or disorder he would feel compelled to push back at these people and be outraged by their words and behavior. 

Right, that hasn’t actually been scientifically established, the cdc says it “may” lessen symptoms, but I’m vaccinated in the hopes that it’s true.  
 

What I’m saying is: assuming a mask is worn, I’m trying to understand how someone else (a first responder) being vaccinated will keep ME safe.  I’m curious as to why Flannagan needs to be pushed back on.  

1 minute ago, aghst said:

You are far less likely to get seriously ill or killed with vaccination.

You are also far less likely to spread.  Because most of the virus you shed will be coated with antibodies so those viruses will not be "viable" as virus shed by an unvaccinated person.

 

 

I heard that studies show viral load shedding was the same in unvaccinated and vaccinated.

I think they should get vaccinated to save themselves from possibly not getting deathly ill!  But I’m not getting how it is selfish.

[aghst]

2 minutes ago, heatherchandler said:

Right, that hasn’t actually been scientifically established, the cdc says it “may” lessen symptoms, but I’m vaccinated in the hopes that it’s true.  
 

What I’m saying is: assuming a mask is worn, I’m trying to understand how someone else (a first responder) being vaccinated will keep ME safe.  I’m curious as to why Flannagan needs to be pushed back on.  

You should do some more research.

The past couple of months, most of the people taking up hospitals are unvaccinated people.  Most of those dying have been unvaccinated.

We're talking 90% or more in most hospitals.

Of those with breakthrough cases leading to hospitalization or deaths, most are elderly with underlying conditions.  But for instance, hospitalizations and deaths have increased in the 25-54 age groups and more children have been hospitalized since Delta.

You should also read into super-spreader events the last few months.  Most of the time there are unvaccinated spreaders causing a cluster of new infections.  That isn't to say vaccinated people haven't spread infections.  But it's far less frequent.

Flannagan is spreading unfounded bullshit.  She's talking about first responders NOT having to get vaccinated.  She's not talking about vaccinated first responders at all.  She said if they don't feel like getting the vaccine, that should be good enough.

No Caitlin, vaccine mandates are legal and the courts have backed them up for over a century now.  The conservative Supreme Court has declined to hear appeals of vaccine mandate challenges from students in Indiana (Amy Comey Barrett) or this week, the Court voted 6-3 to deny a challenge from Maine plaintiffs who demanded religious exemptions for vaccine mandates for health care workers in that state.

Caitlin apparently gets weak-kneed for cops and firemen, those strong, faster gender who rescue people.  So she's willing to let them slide on mandates.  For people who aren't thirsty, that kind of weak reasoning won't fly.

[heatherchandler]

42 minutes ago, aghst said:

That isn't to say vaccinated people haven't spread infections.  But it's far less frequent.

I’m getting my info from the cdc so I’m unaware of the studies you are citing, but the cdc specifically said that they cannot say if this is true.  

[aghst]

1 hour ago, heatherchandler said:

I’m getting my info from the cdc so I’m unaware of the studies you are citing, but the cdc specifically said that they cannot say if this is true.  

Here's an article on some recent studies.

Quote

People who are vaccinated against Covid-19 are less likely to spread the virus even if they become infected, a new study finds, adding to a growing body of evidence that vaccines can reduce transmission of the delta variant.

British scientists at the University of Oxford examined national records of nearly 150,000 contacts that were traced from roughly 100,000 initial cases. The samples included people who were fully or partially vaccinated with either the Pfizer-BioNTech or the AstraZeneca vaccines, as well as people who were unvaccinated. The researchers then looked at how the vaccines affected the spread of the virus if a person had a breakthrough infection with either the alpha variant or the highly contagious delta variant.

Both vaccines reduced transmission, although they were more effective against the alpha variant compared to the delta variant. When infected with the delta variant, a given contact was 65 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated with two doses of the Pfizer vaccine. With AstraZeneca, a given contact was 36 percent less likely to test positive if the person from whom the exposure occurred was fully vaccinated.

The risk of transmission from a breakthrough infection was much higher if someone had received just one dose of either vaccine.

The study was posted online Thursday and hasn’t yet been peer reviewed. But scientists not associated with the research said the findings were credible.

 

“It’s the highest quality study we have so far on the question of infectiousness of vaccinated people infected with delta,” said Dr. Aaron Richterman, an infectious disease physician at the University of Pennsylvania, who was not involved in the research.

Susan Butler-Wu, a clinical microbiologist at the University of Southern California, called the study “well performed,” especially because it reflects real-world transmission since it tracked spread among close contacts.

Using cycle threshold (Ct) values, the researchers found a similar level of viral load in unvaccinated and vaccinated people who were infected with the delta variant, backing up prior studies. Even so, people who were fully vaccinated were still less likely to infect others.

“Transmission is much more complex,” Butler-Wu said, meaning the Ct value is just a snapshot in time and doesn’t reflect the entire course of illness.

It's likely that people who have been vaccinated clear the infectious virus from the body faster. A previous study from Singapore had found that although levels of the virus were initially the same in those infected with the delta variant regardless of vaccine status, by day seven, levels of the virus dropped quickly in those who were vaccinated, which may reduce the ability to spread illness.

There is emerging evidence that even though cycle threshold values may be the same regardless of vaccination status, people who are vaccinated may have less infectious virus in their bodies, potentially reducing transmission. Richterman pointed to a recent pre-printfrom China that found a large reduction in transmission in those who had received two doses of vaccine, compared to the unvaccinated.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/vaccinated-people-are-less-likely-spread-covid-new-research-finds-n1280583

The science is evolving.  In the spring, the CDC said vaccinated people can go without masks.

Then delta variant hit and they found that vaccinated people had similar viral loads as unvaccinated people.

But now they're seeing that viral loads may be comparable only for a short period of time and the vaccinated people are likely to shed non viable virions.

In any event, the show didn't go into vaccinated vs. unvaccinated.  Caitlin was going on about unvaccinated first responders and them not being forced to get vaccinated to keep their jobs.

 

[DoctorAtomic]

So here's my problem with that argument from the show, and I agree with the prevailing opinion here. You're a fireman; you're not vaccinated. Let's say I'm someone who actually can't get the vaccine for legit reasons. You come into my burning house to save me, but you infect me, and I have to go to the hospital. That's a lawsuit waiting to happen. That alone, no way any municipality wants the liability. 

On the other side of it; who wants it on their conscience that you got someone sick? I'm all virtual for my classes until I'm confident everyone is vaccinated. (I'm vaccinated). I wouldn't want someone to get sick in my class even if it wasn't my fault. And guess what? Someone did. 

8 hours ago, aghst said:

Grow up Caitlin.  Get therapy.

 

She's probably super in to Outlander. 

I agree that Bill talks about wokeness too much, but I don't think he's always wrong. I didn't take New Rules as a screed on wokeness. A tv show with a scene that has a nude guy get on an elevator really doesn't strike me as violence. I've said before that telling someone to stfu could be done a little more; from that - sometimes you (people in general) need to just dial it down. Not everything is A Thing. 

I'm not going to get into the Chappelle special, but the joke about 'dog whistling' and 'you don't think Dave speaks his mind?' was funny. 

 

Edited October 31, 2021 by DoctorAtomic

[millennium]

I stopped watching Real Time last week after Bill supported Dave Chappelle's remarks about transgender people (Caitlyn Jenner agrees with you, Bill -- that should give you cause for reflection).  

Based on the discussion of this week's show, it would appear I am not missing anything.

Edited October 31, 2021 by millennium

[millennium]

.

Edited October 31, 2021 by millennium
Because the mysteries of editing still elude me.

[BrownBear2012]

23 hours ago, aghst said:

You should do some more research.

The past couple of months, most of the people taking up hospitals are unvaccinated people.  Most of those dying have been unvaccinated.

We're talking 90% or more in most hospitals.

Of those with breakthrough cases leading to hospitalization or deaths, most are elderly with underlying conditions.  But for instance, hospitalizations and deaths have increased in the 25-54 age groups and more children have been hospitalized since Delta.

You should also read into super-spreader events the last few months.  Most of the time there are unvaccinated spreaders causing a cluster of new infections.  That isn't to say vaccinated people haven't spread infections.  But it's far less frequent.

Flannagan is spreading unfounded bullshit.  She's talking about first responders NOT having to get vaccinated.  She's not talking about vaccinated first responders at all.  She said if they don't feel like getting the vaccine, that should be good enough.

No Caitlin, vaccine mandates are legal and the courts have backed them up for over a century now.  The conservative Supreme Court has declined to hear appeals of vaccine mandate challenges from students in Indiana (Amy Comey Barrett) or this week, the Court voted 6-3 to deny a challenge from Maine plaintiffs who demanded religious exemptions for vaccine mandates for health care workers in that state.

Caitlin apparently gets weak-kneed for cops and firemen, those strong, faster gender who rescue people.  So she's willing to let them slide on mandates.  For people who aren't thirsty, that kind of weak reasoning won't fly.

Thank You! Well said. Another thing to remember...COVID is a novel virus. Scientists and epidemeologists don't know a whole lot about it but are learning more everyday. Also...as the virus continues to spread due to the unvaxxed, the virus will continue to mutate. Each mutation has the possibilty of being a variant that can be worse than the last variant...the current vaccines appear to be quite good at fighting off the current Delta variant and boosters will be helpful during the winter months to fight off new and deadlier variants. The unvaxxed will be at great risk of getting sick and possibly dying. 

[Tara]

 

On 10/31/2021 at 4:02 PM, BrownBear2012 said:

Another thing to remember...COVID is a novel virus. Scientists and epidemeologists don't know a whole lot about it but are learning more everyday.

Yes, our understanding of science changes as we learn more. It is only finite when it suits our narrative. 😀

[Tachi Rocinante]

I wish Bill would have asked Spicey about the size of his studio audience . . .