The Winchesters Anticipation

[ByTor]

Your place to discuss/speculate on the potential prequel spinoff.

[ahrtee]

Thank you!

 

[Casseiopeia]

I'll go first....I've been thinking about this all day...

I'm struggling with the timeline for the spinoff. So this is supposed to be set in 1972. Wasn't John fresh back from Vietnam in 1973? A typical tour of duty is usually about 18 months. I always got the impression that John was an officer so that would mean he probably did more than one tour of duty.  Do we know how old John was? Like did we ever know in the series?

Mary was 18 in '72.  Since there was a draft John would have been 18 when he went to war. So  I can't wrap my head around how old they were and what years they are going to cover. They need to throw in military service somewhere along the way.  

Any clues, clarification that I'm missing?

[Morrigan2575]

12 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

I always got the impression that John was an officer so that would mean he probably did more than one tour of duty.  Do we know how old John was? Like did we ever know in the series?

He was a Corporal, must have spent some time in the Marines. I thought that was 1 step up from Private but it's actually an 3 steps (E-1 vs E-4).

I just watched the John/Dean scene from S4, I guess the retconned John's dad being a dead MoL since he had a dad in S4. Of course I'm sure they can say that was his step father

12 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Mary was 18 in '72.  Since there was a draft John would have been 18 when he went to war. So  I can't wrap my head around how old they were and what years they are going to cover.

Was he drafted or did he volunteer? I don't remember if they ever specified.

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Casseiopeia]

2 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

He was a Corporal, must have spent some time in the Marines. I thought that was 1 step up from Private but it's actually an 3 steps (E-1 vs E-4).

Thanks I couldn't remember what rank he was. I would imagine Corporal could be achieved in one tour of duty. It just seemed like John was very military in raising his sons.

[Morrigan2575]

3 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Thanks I couldn't remember what rank he was. I would imagine Corporal could be achieved in one tour of duty. It just seemed like John was very military in raising his sons.

Googled, 26 months to make E-4 so yeah probably.

Yeah from S1 the impression I had was that John was a long term Soldier, like Sgt rank. I guess I could fabwank that John fell back on military training/thinking after Mary died. Or we can also fanwank that John's step father was military so John was raised like that before entering the military?

There are obvious holes to fill and there will no doubt be retcons

Edited June 29, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Casseiopeia]

1 minute ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Googled, 26 months to make E-4 so yeah probably

Okay then he would have been deployed since '70-71?

[Morrigan2575]

8 minutes ago, Casseiopeia said:

Okay then he would have been deployed since '70-71?

In S4 it was April 30, 1973 and he said he'd been back (from Vietnam) for "some time".  Going to try and find the John/Mary or Mary/Dean clip to see if they say how long Mary/John dated.

Can't find clips that help but, the other time travel episode, was in 1978 and Mary was pregnant with Dean (born in '79). So I guess this could take place between 73-78?

Edited June 29, 2021 by Morrigan2575

[Casseiopeia]

According to Superwiki John and Mary were the same age. So in 1972 John would have been 18 and off to Vietnam. So this either takes place before he is deployed or after he gets back in 73.  So either the spinoff is about the teenage years or it's about the years between 73 and 78.

Is this going to be a teen drama?

[ahrtee]

In canon, John was born 1954 (though I think the only time that was officially shown was on his gravestone in the djinn's world, so I suppose they could change that one without too much wank.)  

He and Mary met in 1972, when he was already a marine.  So in theory, he could have been home on leave, and then went back to finish his tour.  John proposed in April 1973 (or was going to, before he was killed. 😐)  We do know they didn't actually get married till 1975.  Whether they were living together till then, or Mary went to live with some other Campbells after her parents died (maybe the uncle who paid for her gravestone?) and she and John were just engaged, is open for interpretation, though the fact that Mary apparently insisted they go to Reno (?) to get married does seem to imply there were some family issues involved.  And of course we never heard anything about John's parents except Henry.  The fact that he was "a mechanic from a family of mechanics" might actually be his mother's family (if he got his skill genetically!) or from his stepfather, who I assume was the "dad" mentioned in In The Beginning (if Henry disappeared when he was 4, the odds are pretty good that his mother remarried, even if she had to wait 7 years.) 

So there are possibilities that can work even within canon.  About the angels making them fall in love even though they originally hated each other:  if they both grew up in Lawrence and were the same age, they might have met as children/young teens and hated each other, and it was the 1972 meeting that the angels "touched," which is why it seemed to be love at first sight.  

So the places to fill in:  the year between meeting and John proposing, when Samuel was against their dating.  The years between 1973 and 1975.  Mary's family, and if she was hunting with them during that time.  John's family, and how they reacted to her.  And then the 3 years between their marriage and Mary getting pregnant with Dean.  Was she trying to be the good housewife during that time and discovered, after a while, that she missed hunting after all?  

There's at least some fodder for stories in there, without getting too cliched in one direction or another.  Hopefully. 

[Casseiopeia]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

He and Mary met in 1972, when he was already a marine. 

That wasn't in Johns or Mary's Superwiki bio.  Maybe they met earlier as teens?

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

That wasn't in Johns or Mary's Superwiki bio.  Maybe they met earlier as teens?

Aha...take that back they met in 72 at the movies.

[Casseiopeia]

Well upside to exploring the 73-78 years we get the Impala!!

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, Casseiopeia said:

That wasn't in Johns or Mary's Superwiki bio.  Maybe they met earlier as teens?

They might have met earlier, as I mentioned.  But the "official" date came from Keep Calm and Carry On:

DEAN (breathing heavily) Mom. Listen to me. Your name – your name is Mary Sandra Campbell, okay? You were born December 5, 1954, to Samuel and Deanna Campbell. Your father, he bounced around a lot for, uh, work, and you bounced right along with him, and you ended up in Lawrence, Kansas.

MARY How do you know all that?

DEAN Dad told me. March 23, 1972, you walked out of a movie theater – Slaughterhouse-Five. You loved it, and you bumped into a big Marine and you knocked him flat on his ass. You were embarrassed, and he laughed it off, said you could make it up to him with a cup of coffee. So, you went to, uh, Mulroney's and you talked and he was cute and he knew the words to every Zeppelin song, so when he asked you for your number, you gave it to him, even though you knew your dad would be pissed. That was the night that – that you met –

MARY John Winchester.

DEAN August 19, 1975, you were married... in Reno. Your idea. A few years later, I came along, then Sammy.

 

So John was already a Marine by March 1972, and (whether they'd known each other as children/teens

or not) they were suddenly attracted to each other (with angelic assistance?)   

Just now, Casseiopeia said:

Well upside to exploring the 73-78 years we get the Impala!!

And maybe a glimpse of "Dean Van Halen"!

[roctavia]

I'm all for more spinoffs of the supernatural world, but I just don't get this plan... I feel like we already know enough about Mary and John and their relationship.... and didn't John not start hunting until after Mary died, since he didn't know about it? That's kind of a big thing to retcon, since they already turned it into Mary's family being the hunters....   I watch Supernatural for Supernatural stuff.... so is Mary going to be sneaking off to hunt?? 

I dunno.... I just think there are better spinoff options in this world....

[Morrigan2575]

26 minutes ago, roctavia said:

dunno.... I just think there are better spinoff options in this world...

Every spinoff I wanted is long past it's use by date. Young Rufus/Bobby chronicles, Crowley/Castiel Investigations in the Queen Car (i have Good Omens on Prime). I would have like the Roadhouse spinoff, a place where Hunters gathered. I would have loved Wayward Sisters, although it should have focused on Donna and Jody. I'm not sure there's much else. Most of the characters I loved are dead (Bobby, Crowley, Rufus, Ellen, Castiel, Rowena). The only characters left are Jody and Donna and they're spinoff didn't get picked up.

While I agree Mary and John the Early Years can be problematic, it's also something i can get into. I also don't hate John or Mary (in any incarnation).

[roctavia]

14 minutes ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Every spinoff I wanted is long past it's use by date. Young Rufus/Bobby chronicles, Crowley/Castiel Investigations in the Queen Car (i have Good Omens on Prime). I would have like the Roadhouse spinoff, a place where Hunters gathered. I would have loved Wayward Sisters, although it should have focused on Donna and Jody. I'm not sure there's much else. Most of the characters I loved are dead (Bobby, Crowley, Rufus, Ellen, Castiel, Rowena). The only characters left are Jody and Donna and they're spinoff didn't get picked up.

While I agree Mary and John the Early Years can be problematic, it's also something i can get into. I also don't hate John or Mary (in any incarnation).

I don't dislike Mary or Joh, I just don't know what else they can add to their story that we haven't already seen... prequels are hard because you already know how the story ends, especially when it comes to Mary and John... some of the other hunters that we don't know as well might be more interesting, and would have to be cast with younger actors anyway, so Rufus and Bobby could happen... 

We also have Jack as the new god, which means he could rebuild/bring back anybody... or put some of our favorite dead characters somewhere besides heaven and let them do stuff... Crowley and Gabriel stuck in planet 2.0 or something... pick an alternate reality... something.... 

I just feel like John and Mary will either be missing a lot of the fun monster stuff that I love about supernatural, or it will ruin everything we've seen in actual Supernatural to make the new show interesting... 

Hell, I'd take alternate universe John and Mary where she didn't die or something.... that could be interesting... but our John and Mary, we already know their story.

 

[Lastcall]

1 hour ago, ahrtee said:

So John was already a Marine by March 1972, and (whether they'd known each other as children/teens

or not) they were suddenly attracted to each other (with angelic assistance?)   

And maybe a glimpse of "Dean Van Halen"!

I read one speculation that maybe they would show some of John's time as a soldier along with Mary's time hunting so they would both have action scenes. That would be something we haven't seen. Mary involved with the supernatural and John either as a soldier or on some natural adventure for some reason. 

I thought about Dean Van Halen too. It reminded me of the Deep Space Nine episode where they went back to an old Star Trek episode. We would see parts of the Supernatural episode and another story crossing through it. That could be fun.

[Casseiopeia]

2 hours ago, roctavia said:

I dunno.... I just think there are better spinoff options in this world....

Samuel Colt....Cowboys and Demons.

[DeeDee79]

So is this spec about the show or talk about what we wish that they had done instead? I can’t really tell from reading the posts here. 🤷‍♀️

[Simba122504]

Based on canon. John knew nothing about the supernatural until Mary died. Mary stopped haunting when she fell for John. She wanted to live a normal life and they were able to do that until yellow eyes killed her. John had no idea she was even a hunter.  John didn't even know his father was a MoL. He didn't even know they existed. His father left when he was young.  John's journey started when Mary was killed. This only works as an AU. Young Bobby and Rufus should have gotten a spin off. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Simba122504

[gonzosgirrl]

4 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Based on canon. John knew nothing about the supernatural until Mary died. Mary stopped haunting when she fell for John. She wanted to live a normal life and they were able to do that until yellow eyes killed her.

Except Dabbernatural changed all that. And if he could retcon Mary hunting after Dean was born, they can retcon what John knew about her or his father. Doesn't have to mean he acted on it.

I doubt that Jensen would have invested so much time,  money  and effort into this if he/they didn't have a good idea how to pull it off. 

[Morrigan2575]

5 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

So is this spec about the show or talk about what we wish that they had done instead? I can’t really tell from reading the posts here. 🤷‍♀️

Supposed to be spec on the show

23 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except Dabbernatural changed all that. And if he could retcon Mary hunting after Dean was born, they can retcon what John knew about her or his father. Doesn't have to mean he acted on it.

I wonder if they can use the time travel episode with Michael and Anna to say it all changed? 

[PAForrest]

11 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

Googled, 26 months to make E-4 so yeah probably.

And it can be faster. I made E2 right out of basic training because I was a platoon leader. So by the time I got to the into my third year, probably around 26 mos, I made E5. And I only served three years active total (one year reserve). So yeah, John really didn't have to be in the Marines that long to go up in ranks. After you get to E5/Sergeant rank, things start to go slower and it's longer to go up in the ranks.

[Bergamot]

Thank you for your service, PA!

Quote

Based on canon. John knew nothing about the supernatural until Mary died. Mary stopped haunting when she fell for John. She wanted to live a normal life and they were able to do that until yellow eyes killed her.

To be honest I don't see how anyone for whom any violation of canon makes watching a show a complete "no-go" could ever have watched Supernatural in the first place, at least not after the first season or so. I'm not saying that it never bothered me -- it did, sometimes a lot -- but I still watched. (It's funny, but for me it was the little things that really drove me crazy for some reason, even if it was something that didn't really affect the direction of the story! Like, did they ever visit the Grand Canyon or not?!)

Actually, though, I don't consider the revelation that Mary continued to hunt after marrying John (see "Celebrating the LIfe of Asa Fox") to be a violation of canon. It was just us learning something new about the character that we didn't know before. The fact that we as viewers never knew this does not mean that it was impossible that it could have happened.

To me, this is like learning from Jerry in Phantom Traveler that John often spoke with pride about Sam while he was at college, and learning a few episodes later that John used to swing by Stanford whenever he could to check that he was safe. I mean, I could have said, "Wait a minute! It is CANON that John repudiated and disowned Sam completely when he left! This is a violation of what we were told since the very first episode!" No, it was just adding a new layer to the character which made him more interesting and complex. (Not that it made me approve any more highly of John as a father, but it was interesting!)

Anyway, if the new show makes it to the air, I will give it a look. I don't plan on laying on it the burden of all my resentments and grudges against the original show, so if it is interesting enough I think I will watch it. At least long enough to give it a chance on its own terms to make me a viewer.

 

[Casseiopeia]

7 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

So is this spec about the show or talk about what we wish that they had done instead? I can’t really tell from reading the posts here. 🤷‍♀️

Until we get more to go on a little of both.  I'm just trying to make the timeline fit into the synopsis.  I can't tell if this spinoff tells the story of before they met or after Dean's visit in 73.

[MAK]

 

46 minutes ago, PinkChicken said:

dumb inattentive things annoy me a lot more than when they have clearly thought about something that they are going to change and how they have decided to put that into the story. Like Lucifer saying he was the older brother? wrong and completely unnecessary. All the random hunters they pull out of the woodwork that apparently Dean or John knew, even somewhat closely at some point? absolutely fair.

I started watching SPN in S10, and there were a lot of contradictions within canon already. I had a lot of fun trying to justify and head canon how it could fit to together. Like how Crowley King of Hell did not know Hell had a backdoor to Purgatory. Or the John and Mary are soulmates but Cupid had to intervene. Or why Sam had to load up on demon blood to say yes to Lucifer but Dean didn't need to do anything to say yes to Michael. It was definitely irritating when they got the Biblical lore (within the show) messed up. 

I think in the episode where the brothers go back in time after Anna, it is shown that John did not know anything about the supernatural. They gave him the talk and Mary told him about her family and hunters, etc. while he helped paint sigils on the walls. At the end of the episode, Michael wiped John and Mary's memories of whatever happened in that episode. So you could say he then no longer knew about the supernatural until he spoke with Missouri. 

It seems like the Ackles are paying attention to some of the details so I look forward to seeing what they actually come up with. 

[catrox14]

It could also be that the 1972 date mentioned in the press release can he changed by a year to matchup better before production begins, if it ever gets to the pilot stage.

John and Mary could have been put together by the angels the moment John ran into her outside the movie theatre. And the story goes from there, with Mary starting to keep John from learning she was hunting etc.

Hell, I'd be okay with everything that happened from s12 to s15 was actually another AU and that Mary was never brought back at all and Jack was never born..because for me, YMMV,  everything during those seasons was the most LOLcanon.  I think there are so many ways to do this, that I would probably buy it.

I can also see a potential for some non linear "This Is Us" -esque storytelling, which would allow for using Amy Gumenick, and Matt Cohen, and even JDM and Sam Smith, with some possible cameos by just about anyone.

 

[tessathereaper]

8 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Based on canon. John knew nothing about the supernatural until Mary died. Mary stopped haunting when she fell for John. She wanted to live a normal life and they were able to do that until yellow eyes killed her. John had no idea she was even a hunter.  John didn't even know his father was a MoL. He didn't even know they existed. His father left when he was young.  John's journey started when Mary was killed. This only works as an AU. Young Bobby and Rufus should have gotten a spin off. 

No because angelic mind wipes are also canon and we know they were willing to use them on John and Mary.  

[tessathereaper]

2 hours ago, Casseiopeia said:

Until we get more to go on a little of both.  I'm just trying to make the timeline fit into the synopsis.  I can't tell if this spinoff tells the story of before they met or after Dean's visit in 73.

Danneel said 1972 so before Dean's visit is when it starts I'm assuming.

[Casseiopeia]

5 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

No because angelic mind wipes are also canon and we know they were willing to use them on John and Mary.  

Kind of a get out of jail free card.  That would resolve  any continuity/canon issues. Then they could just tell any story they wanted without rewriting the original characters.

[Morrigan2575]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I can also see a potential for some non linear "This Is Us" -esque storytelling, which would allow for using Amy Gumenick, and Matt Cohen, and even JDM and Sam Smith, with some possible cameos by just about anyone.

That would be cool. I'd like that.

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It could also be that the 1972 date mentioned in the press release can he changed by a year to matchup better before production begins, if it ever gets to the pilot stage.

John and Mary could have been put together by the angels the moment John ran into her outside the movie theatre. And the story goes from there, with Mary starting to keep John from learning she was hunting etc.

Hell, I'd be okay with everything that happened from s12 to s15 was actually another AU and that Mary was never brought back at all and Jack was never born..because for me, YMMV,  everything during those seasons was the most LOLcanon.  I think there are so many ways to do this, that I would probably buy it.

I can also see a potential for some non linear "This Is Us" -esque storytelling, which would allow for using Amy Gumenick, and Matt Cohen, and even JDM and Sam Smith, with some possible cameos by just about anyone.

 

MTE, Catrox!

 

1 hour ago, Casseiopeia said:

Kind of a get out of jail free card.  That would resolve  any continuity/canon issues. Then they could just tell any story they wanted without rewriting the original characters.

And that's exactly what the mind wipe canon accomplishes, that might even allow them to keep the 1972 date as the starting point.

[Lastcall]

    I really hope they don't do a mind wipe or reality warp. I hate those and it feels like nothing we watched mattered if no one ever remembers it. It would be even worse if they started bringing in characters like Bobby. That would mean everyone would have to be mind wiped and it kind of feels like the whole story was pointless. I don't think that will happen though. Dean is narrating this so either he was told this from John, he read about it or he discovered the truth in Heaven and is repeating this to someone else. 

    "This is Us" is the best option. 1972 as the focal point but bouncing forward and back. In the Anthology scenario, they could anchor the show but tell stories forwards and back from the 50's with Henry, 60's with the Campbells, 70's John, Mary and Bobby, 80's John, Bobby and the Harvell's, 90's John, Sam and Dean. Maybe even a little of the 00's before the original started. 

[tessathereaper]

40 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

MTE, Catrox!

 

And that's exactly what the mind wipe canon accomplishes, that might even allow them to keep the 1972 date as the starting point.

1972 is only a year before In the Beginning, so it would make sense.  by 1973 John and Mary were in a serious relationship, she wanted to marry him so to me it makes sense to start a year before when Dean time travelled to 1973.  Esp as we have the canon date in march 1972 of John and Mary bumping into each other at the movies.

[Simba122504]

7 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

Except Dabbernatural changed all that. And if he could retcon Mary hunting after Dean was born, they can retcon what John knew about her or his father. Doesn't have to mean he acted on it.

I doubt that Jensen would have invested so much time,  money  and effort into this if he/they didn't have a good idea how to pull it off. 

That would be the retcons of all retcons. It doesn't work. He knew nothing pre Mary's death. John was a regular dude up until that faithful night. There's no supernatural, no haunting,  no Men of Letters in his youth. Just a regular guy who lived a regular life with his wife and two sons.  Anything different than that is an AU. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Simba122504
typo

[gonzosgirrl]

8 minutes ago, Simba122504 said:

That would be the retcons of all retcons. It doesn't work. He knew nothing pre Mary's death. John was a regular dude up until that faithful night. There's no supernatural, no haunting,  no Men of Letters in his youth. Justa regular guy who lived a regular life with his wife and two sons.  Anything different than that is an AU. 

It works if they were manipulated by Heaven/Hell (which is canon). He could have found about about Mary's hunting after their marriage (canon) and had his mind wiped pre-1979 so Dean, and then Sam, could be born. Easy peasy. ETA: Actually, a series of mind wipes, since we know that it happened in canon after the events of The Song Remains The Same.

Edited June 29, 2021 by gonzosgirrl

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, gonzosgirrl said:

It works if they were manipulated by Heaven/Hell (which is canon). He could have found about about Mary's hunting after their marriage (canon) and had his mind wiped pre-1979 so Dean, and then Sam, could be born. Easy peasy. ETA: Actually, a series of mind wipes, since we know that it happened in canon after the events of The Song Remains The Same.

Exactly.  We know Mary and John were BOTH mind wiped following that episode.  Plus I mean what did Mary tell John about her parents after In The Beginning. There could even have been a mind wipe of some sort there for him, maybe even something Mary herself did.  Some sort of potion or spell or charm.  

[Myrelle]

1 hour ago, tessathereaper said:

Exactly.  We know Mary and John were BOTH mind wiped following that episode.  Plus I mean what did Mary tell John about her parents after In The Beginning. There could even have been a mind wipe of some sort there for him, maybe even something Mary herself did.  Some sort of potion or spell or charm.  

I always wondered about this...

I think Young John said something about Mary's father having a heart attack in The Song Remains the Same(or one of those other time travel episodes), but I always wondered how she explained the bloody stab wound. 

 

Maybe they're going to say that both parents came back wrong or different after they "died".

[Casseiopeia]

50 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

but I always wondered how she explained the bloody stab wound. 

Or Deanna dead at home with a broken neck on the same day that Samuel dies of a heart attack.

[ILoveReading]

Technically, with the whole "Chuck wrote everything" nothing is really canon.  They could start from scratch and say, that the story Chuck wrote wasn't even close to what really happened and he lied. 

Nothing violates canon if canon doesn't exist.  Thanks Dabb.  You made that easy.

I don't think Jensen will go that route.

There is one big question that wasn't answered.  Why Mary an John?  We saw how the yellow eyed demon found Mary but at time Mary and John were already together.  So the angels already acted.  How were they chosen in the first place?  I know it was said brains and brawn but I'm sure that would suit a lot of people.   So it has to be more than that.

Maybe John has some kind Supernatural experience in Vietnam, and he wrote it off an a hallucination.  Or Mary did something that got the angels attention.

Mary and John's story isnt' just Mary and John.  I'm sure the angels and demons will come into play.  Maybe we will see the births of Sam and Dean and the aftermath of Mary's death if the show gets multiple seasons.

 

 

[MAK]

29 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

There is one big question that wasn't answered.  Why Mary an John?  We saw how the yellow eyed demon found Mary but at time Mary and John were already together.  So the angels already acted.  How were they chosen in the first place?  I know it was said brains and brawn but I'm sure that would suit a lot of people.   So it has to be more than that.

I think somewhere they said it was the Cain and Abel bloodlines. Like Campbells came from Cain and Winchesters came from Abel ( or vice versa, I don't remember which way it was). I think Zachariah? said something about manipulating alliances over thousands of years to make the bloodlines come down to John and Mary.

Don't really know why Cain and Abel matttered, since they had nothing to do with Michael and Lucifer?

Also, I don't think the Angels had planned on Azazel. That whole "find me a special child" command from Lucifer makes no sense, because later Lucifer says it was "always you Sam." It was a retcon because SPN went into S4 and Kripke had to come up with something. The demon blood had nothing to do with being vessels, as they were pre-determined to be vessels for thousands of years. 

[ILoveReading]

4 minutes ago, MAK said:

It was a retcon

This could help the spin off.  There are different stories and contradictions so what's what truth.

Jensen said they would hit the highlights and fill in the rest.  This give the story room to breath without being locked in to every minor detail.

[ahrtee]

I always assumed the "brains and brawn" referred to the legacies of "hunter royalty" and the last of the MOL.  

36 minutes ago, MAK said:

Also, I don't think the Angels had planned on Azazel. That whole "find me a special child" command from Lucifer makes no sense, because later Lucifer says it was "always you Sam." It was a retcon because SPN went into S4 and Kripke had to come up with something. The demon blood had nothing to do with being vessels, as they were pre-determined to be vessels for thousands of years. 

The angels had to know about Azazel, because they needed both Michael and Lucifer for the apocalypse, and supposedly they weren't interfering, just observing.  

Luci was still stuck in his cage when he gave the order to Azazel, so, while he might have known it was supposed to be Sam (assuming he was in on the plan before he was locked away) he probably couldn't give specifics while whispering "through the crack."  Azazel could find those who were destined to be vessels, and feeding them the demon blood made them stronger.  Apparently there are only very few vessels capable of holding archangels, and the demon blood (I guess) added the "taint" for them to work with Lucifer.  Even with his bloodline, Sam had to drink demon blood to hold Lucifer for the fight.

I'm not sure if the new show will show any of this (since it was all BTS to the people involved) but the narration might explain it.  (That, to me, is one of the purposes of having a narrator!)

 

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by ahrtee

[MAK]

This might be the wrong thread to write this, I apologize if it is. I only mention it as it concerns Azazel choosing Mary for one of his deals.

The whole Azazel storyline is one of the contradictions/plot holes.  He wasn't targeting Mary until Dean showed up. Also, Azazel was one of the angels that fell with Lucifer. He might have known about the vessels and prophecy.

Sam didn't need to be one of the special children. Supposedly one special child was required to opened the Hell Gate to release Lilith. As for having Sam die so that Dean can sell his soul, they could have killed Sam any way, any time after the brothers found out about crossroads deals. Nick needed to drink demon blood because he wasn't the "one true vessel." Sam should not have needed it.

In my head canon, I think Sam drank all that demon blood before saying yes to Lucifer because he thought that the blood would make him (Sam) strong enough to grab control and jump into the cage.

[tessathereaper]

1 hour ago, MAK said:

This might be the wrong thread to write this, I apologize if it is. I only mention it as it concerns Azazel choosing Mary for one of his deals.

The whole Azazel storyline is one of the contradictions/plot holes.  He wasn't targeting Mary until Dean showed up. Also, Azazel was one of the angels that fell with Lucifer. He might have known about the vessels and prophecy.

Sam didn't need to be one of the special children. Supposedly one special child was required to opened the Hell Gate to release Lilith. As for having Sam die so that Dean can sell his soul, they could have killed Sam any way, any time after the brothers found out about crossroads deals. Nick needed to drink demon blood because he wasn't the "one true vessel." Sam should not have needed it.

In my head canon, I think Sam drank all that demon blood before saying yes to Lucifer because he thought that the blood would make him (Sam) strong enough to grab control and jump into the cage.

I think Mary would have come to attention anyway, remember her father was already working on a case that involved Azazel, although they didn't know it yet.  So I think she'd have been noticed by him in any case.  He was targeting anyone probably because he didn't know exactly who to target, so maybe he had a certain set of criteria to narrow it down but he didn't have the particulars.

Well I don't think Sam actually did need it, but they didn't know that because the only info they, false, said that he did.  Ruby did that to control him, not because it was needed.  She said he needed it so she could get him addicted to it so she could use it control him(imagine how good that role could have been in the hands of someone who could act...oops did I say that outloud?)

[ahrtee]

Actually, Cas told the boys that Sam had to drink the demon blood to be strong enough to hold Lucifer without exploding.

CASTIEL Sam....If you say yes to Lucifer and then fail...This fight will happen. And the collateral... It'll be immense. There's also the demon blood.

SAM What? What are you talking about?

CASTIEL To take in Lucifer, it would be more than you've ever drunk.

SAM But...Why?

CASTIEL It strengthens the vessel. Keeps it from exploding.

SAM But the guy he's in now --

CASTIEL He's drinking gallons.

ETA: Sam didn't need the demon blood to access his powers (none of the other "special children" did) or to kill Lilith.  Yes, that was all Ruby's plan to control him.

Edited June 30, 2021 by ahrtee

[tessathereaper]

16 hours ago, ahrtee said:

Actually, Cas told the boys that Sam had to drink the demon blood to be strong enough to hold Lucifer without exploding.

CASTIEL Sam....If you say yes to Lucifer and then fail...This fight will happen. And the collateral... It'll be immense. There's also the demon blood.

SAM What? What are you talking about?

CASTIEL To take in Lucifer, it would be more than you've ever drunk.

SAM But...Why?

CASTIEL It strengthens the vessel. Keeps it from exploding.

SAM But the guy he's in now --

CASTIEL He's drinking gallons.

ETA: Sam didn't need the demon blood to access his powers (none of the other "special children" did) or to kill Lilith.  Yes, that was all Ruby's plan to control him.

I think that was writers stupidity.  After all Jimmy didn't need to drink demon blood to NOT explode. LOL   Maybe they'd all been led to believe it was different with Lucifer because he was "evil"?

[MAK]

49 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I think that was writers stupidity.  After all Jimmy didn't need to drink demon blood to NOT explode. LOL   Maybe they'd all been led to believe it was different with Lucifer because he was "evil"?

When they wrote Swan Song, I'm pretty sure they thought it was the end of the show. They changed the ending to continue to S6, but probably didn't change anything else within the episode. 

The writers probably used the demon blood for Sam as a motif to show "satanic"  Sam in contrast with "angelic" Dean.

I didn't trust most of what Castiel said in S4/S5. He was brainwashed, killed, resurrected then cut off from Heaven. How much was stuff he knew vs. how much was planted information?

[Myrelle]

50 minutes ago, tessathereaper said:

I think that was writers stupidity.  After all Jimmy didn't need to drink demon blood to NOT explode. LOL   Maybe they'd all been led to believe it was different with Lucifer because he was "evil"?

I think they just wanted to retcon the demon blood drinking from something that was just disgusting to something that was more necessary and then they decided to switch back again when they had Ruby tell him that he never needed it.

S5 was a mess after The End what with all the OTT writing desperation to turn Sam into the sole savior of the world and turn all of his previous mistakes and character faults and flaws into somehow being Dean's fault as much as they were Sam's(God, I just realized how apropos that sounds to recent RL events, too).

Anyway, I have to agree with whoever said that if canon was being retconned away as early as this, there's nothing that could make it any worse than what Dabb did in the last seasons. 

And at least we know that Robbie Thomoson watched the entire series, unlike some of the writers that have been associated with this show, again, especially as it was winding down.

[Morrigan2575]

21 hours ago, MAK said:

Also, Azazel was one of the angels that fell with Lucifer. He might have known about the vessels and prophec

He was? I thought Azazel was a human turned demon in SPN lore? I didn't think there were any angels in hell as demons.

I thought he was a Prince of Hell?

Edited July 1, 2021 by Morrigan2575