S01.E10: Hostile Witness

[Misty79]

4 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Disagree, I hated the ending with Jeanette in Martin's home. Looked totally tacked on (even before the producers commentary and the show lost the moral ambiguity it had, which was enjoyable.  

I wasn’t expecting it, so I appreciated it. TV rarely surprises me these days. It would have felt a bit anticlimactic to me if they’d just ended with Jeanette doing the TV show, that scene didn’t do much for me. I like that they played with us, made us feel like “oh okay they’re both in the grey zone, their wrongs cancel each other out” but then hit us with Jeanette being a full-on creep. 
 

Having said that, after that reveal I’m disappointed to hear there’s a S2, because this is where I’d like the show to end unless they’re going the anthology route. 

[Cranberry]

I thought Jeanette seemed "off" enough in the interview, wearing a headband just like Kate and almost parroting her words. I didn't need to be hit over the head with the fact she's a creep.

[Kiss my mutt]

I’m still trying to figure out why they used the fakest Eva Gabor wig they could find for Jeanette. Hopefully she’ll get an upgrade for season two. 
 

I was totally played by that ending though. 

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, Cranberry said:

I thought Jeanette seemed "off" enough in the interview, wearing a headband just like Kate and almost parroting her words. I didn't need to be hit over the head with the fact she's a creep.

This. Especially knowing the writers want her to come off 'misunderstood' as opposed to a full-on psycho. They could have accomplished that with the TV interview scene, but the last scene took away any ambiguity about her.

[iwantcookies]

I enjoyed the finale a lot. Jeanette is truly something huh. 
 

 

[AzraeltheCat]

On 6/16/2021 at 1:48 PM, CrazyDog said:

I guess I have the UO regarding the finale - I was disappointed. I think the show worked best as a feature of two flawed girls, both victims in different ways - pressure, failed by their parents, attacked by society and the media.

While the show definitely showed Jeannette being "off" it was in a way that could have been attributed to going through her own traumas, and being a frankly, obnoxious and self-centered teenager. 

To end the series with Jeannette being a true villain alongside Martin, it lost me. It wasn't needed, and I think it took away from Martin being the true evil of the season. I don't think we need a S2 unless they do something completely different.

I just binged watched and finished yesterday.  It may be unpopular, but I feel the same! 

[AzraeltheCat]

On 6/16/2021 at 7:57 AM, BingeyKohan said:

But imagine that whoever Kate was accusing had confessed (which in Kate’s mind would have been a possibility) and they admitted, yep I saw you - but you weren’t in the basement … so what was up with that? Kate then has to explain things she didn’t want public.

This is what has bugged me constantly....and I've not really seen a good explanation. 

[SunnyBeBe]

On 6/18/2021 at 7:32 AM, Eliot said:

What I’m struggling to understand is why Kate would not apply that same logic to Jeanette when she thought that Jeanette was the one who had seen her. Again, Kate was not being held prisoner at the time she thought Jeanette had seen her. So I don’t understand her anger, and I don’t understand why she would reveal it on national TV when anyone digging into the question would have immediately learned the truth.

Exactly.  It made no sense.  So has Kate forgotten about the person she called out to?  It turned into all about  someone seeing her in the house. What about hearing her cries for help?

 To me, all three girls really had a penchant for deviance. No, Kate was not at fault at all for what Martin did to her, but she was mean, before then.  Jeannette and Mallory had a particular interests in committing crimes.  I don’t buy their excuse of being misunderstood.  And I can’t imagine wanting to watch any more of them. With Jeannette..mmmmm…..sociopathy seems the only direction they can go.  

[millennium]

I just finished this series a few minutes ago.   At first I was very confused when it became clear there was a misunderstanding between Jeanette and Kate, because I have been hating on Jeanette from the first episode.  As I wrote in the previous episode thread, I have a visceral dislike of her.    So when suddenly it seemed she was innocent I started to question my judgment or the acting/direction, etc.  because everything I saw in this series told me Jeanette was bad news.   Thankfully my instincts were validated by that final scene.

Olivia Holt should get an Emmy for this show.   I would nominate the writers too because the psychology behind the characters, though complex, felt real and relatable.  Unfortunately they embarrassed themselves with that "Martin was killed in a shootout" explanation.   Kate would have been the first suspect and she would have been checked for gun shot residue.

I didn't like how Jeanette's brother and Kate's sister magically vanished from the show.   There should have been some conclusion with them.  And Cindy Turner?   And Kate's mother?   No resolutions?  Really?

Was it just me, or did the Ben/Vince subplot serve no purpose whatsoever (other than earning some woke points)?  It had zero interaction with the other storylines.   FWIW, I didn't read romance into the Kate/Mallory kiss.  It seemed more like an expression of total freedom and exuberance.

[truthaboutluv]

On 6/17/2021 at 11:16 AM, CrazyDog said:

And this is where the writers failed. That ending scene went beyond "misguided" IMO. They could have left Jeannette more option to interpretation by ending with the interview.

This. How in the hell is someone standing by, hearing someone crying and screaming for help and not only NOT helping but smiling as they leave them there, "misguided" and not just completely psychopathic behavior? Kind of makes me glad now that Season 2 is not just featuring an entire new story/cast but a new showrunner as well. Hopefully this one might understand how to truly create ambiguously questionable characters. 

I have obviously come into this show late and read all the old comments while the show was airing. And it was obvious that the consensus, at least on this board, was that Jeannette was straight evil from jump. I actually didn't feel that way and that's why I join the minority of not liking the ending.

Because for me it was the opposite of a twist since many had long decided that Jeannette was an evil, manipulative psycho. And the show had certainly been dropping the breadcrumbs to suggest this with the whole scene of her mimicking some girl on the stand in a television movie and of course the constant breaking into Martin's house, etc. 

However, what I enjoyed about the show was I viewed it like the show The Affair. Where depending on the individual, their perceptions and perhaps even flawed memory, things could look one way versus the truth. And so, if the viewer believed Jeannette was a psycho, it was easy to see her breaking into Martin's house as one more proof it, and everything else as another piece of the puzzle.

But if she was telling the truth in being innocent of what Kate accused her of, it was easy to then see her as a flawed teenage girl who did some weird shit, like randomly breaking into this man's house for the rush of it but not a complete psychopath. And so as noted, if the interview was the last scene we saw of Jeanette, that could have ended the season with that dichotomy still at play. 

Some, especially those who always believed her to be a psycho anyway, would see it as one more sign of her being a creepy psychopath. Others would see it as yeah, maybe she's clearly troubled because again, normal people don't go breaking into people's home for the rush but still not an evil person. And I think that's what could have made the show truly strong. Showing that grey can exist in all characters.

Like for example, while Mallory did care for Kate, at the same time, she did let a lie continue, one that allowed Jeanette to become a social pariah. Also, Mallory was a shit friend at times to Jeanette and Vincent in the way she pushed them around.

Kate was 100% victimized by Martin. However, the fact is there was a vindictive component to her insisting Jeanette saw her because she felt that Jeanette "stole her life" while she was locked away.

And Jeanette was a hundred percent a little weirdo who got a rush out of doing illegal shit and getting away with it, like breaking into someone's home and stealing things. And yes, she wanted to be popular. But that was probably the most normal thing about her.

So they were all flawed in some ways and the show could have excellently driven the point home - that many people live in a grey area and someone doesn't have to be all bad, just because they may do some weird or questionable shit here and there. 

Instead, that final scene made it all about Jeanette the psychopath who got away with knowing and keeping Kate locked up so she could continue to steal her life. No grey area there. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by truthaboutluv

[teapot]

On 5/4/2022 at 8:26 PM, truthaboutluv said:

This. How in the hell is someone standing by, hearing someone crying and screaming for help and not only NOT helping but smiling as they leave them there, "misguided" and not just completely psychopathic behavior? 

Instead, that final scene made it all about Jeanette the psychopath who got away with knowing and keeping Kate locked up so she could continue to steal her life. No grey area there. 

I wonder if the end was planned all along.  I feel like Kate would’ve at least had a throwaway line that there was a time that she thought she heard someone and called to them

[peachmangosteen]

9 hours ago, teapot said:

I wonder if the end was planned all along.  I feel like Kate would’ve at least had a throwaway line that there was a time that she thought she heard someone and called to them

Pretty sure the writers/showrunners said they added that in after the show had already been airing because they thought the audience would want a twist at the end.

[KaveDweller]

5 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Pretty sure the writers/showrunners said they added that in after the show had already been airing because they thought the audience would want a twist at the end.

Yes, she did. It was a last minute change for no reason other than to shock people. It would have been much better without that final scene.

[Bellatrix]

Watching this, I loved it and thought it was one of the best endings of a television show ever. Everything worked for me, including the last twist.

In hindsight, I agree that the last twist cheapened things and was unnecessary. Then and there, it was cool.

I agree that it was not necessarily in character for Jeanette as we had learned to know her.

The main thing about psychopaths is not their lack of ability to feel, I have found. I mean, there are days when everybody, I think, is too tired/exhausted/emotionally exhausted to feel much of anything. That does not mean that they go around actively doing bad things.

The problem with psychopaths is that they go around, working hard at making people feel bad, through every power at their disposal.

Jeanette does not seem to have done that. In fact, apart from the last scene, there is no indication that she treated anybody badly. She supported Vincent (in the 90's in Texas), warmed up to Angela, loved her brother and her parents, was a good girlfriend to Jamie ("You've been happier than I've ever seen you"), and was a good friend to Renee and Tenille.

She had some emotional oddities, which absolutely can be red flags, but not that pattern of spreading misery wherever she goes.

Yes, she ended the friendship with Mallory, but I don't know if ending a friendship with someone who constantly pushes you to do things that might/would get you in trouble is actually a bad thing. Jeanette could have gotten her father fired for the stealing of the key, also, but that goes back to the last sentence, and I think is more typically teenager of not thinking one's actions through or realising what the consequences of them might be.

As to the dropped lawsuit and the effects on Greg, many people have worried over the consequences to him. I did, too. I hope the Wallises picked up the legal tab. They must have, otherwise I think he would have been ruined. As long as they did that, I think Greg would have been perfectly happy.

Not everyone wishes to be part of the top 1%. Greg seemed very happy in an ordinary job and with an ordinary family in 1993. With his daughter's rehabilitation of reputation, he probably managed to get a new job (or his old one back), he has lost the useless Cindy but gained the unrealistically nice Angela, people speak to him again and nobody spray-paints nasty words on his house anymore.

Somebody upthread mentioned that Greg and his daughter were very alike. I agree. Neither of them seemed to want world domination, just their spot of sunshine.

Edited August 23, 2022 by Bellatrix

[bettername2come]

On 6/22/2021 at 8:59 PM, Soobs said:

the brother stealing private information from a woman he just had sex with,

Seriously, I wanted some fallout from that decision. And more proof that this was real in court. I mean, I know it was, but it doesn't seem admissible in court. 

The ending felt tacked on. The kiss between Mallory and Kate felt poorly timed. Like others, I thought they might kiss at the roller rink, then this ep I thought Kate might kiss her when she went for a hug, but now it seemed more out of place. I hate when shows have someone date their only friend. 

[Black Knight]

On 5/30/2022 at 11:19 AM, KaveDweller said:

Yes, she did. It was a last minute change for no reason other than to shock people. It would have been much better without that final scene.

The final twist was conceived when they were shooting E4, which was before the halfway point of the show. It wasn't a last minute idea.