S04.E10: The Wilderness

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Zonk said:

Especially now that Fred is dead, it's mostly over, isn't it? She could finally move on, even if moving on might take years. Now she can start. So isn't that the best that could happen for you and your marriage, Luke?

Fred's dead, but Gilead is still going, and Hannah is still there.

There is not a chance this is over while either is true.

Oh, and as for why she didn't get Janine or Hannah out?  Those rescues were people already in custody, undoubtedly facing horrific deaths, once all information was tortured out of them.  Joseph seemed to run or command detention centers (at least he did when he had June pick a few to be saved.)  Even if he no longer runs them?  He obviously has connections with the Eyes that manage them.  

Basically, moving those 20 in the very short time period he had was much more possible that going to Colorado to get Hannah out, or getting Janine out of the red center.

Time was critical, and short.

Also?  Looks like Nick is not the only Eye who is working against Gilead.  That's a hopeful sign.

[Zonk]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Fred's dead, but Gilead is still going, and Hannah is still there.

There is not a chance this is over while either is true.

You are right. It would be mostly over for any real person. But this is not a real person, this is rage fueled superhero June Osborne. Her closeup stare would melt the film, if they weren't shooting digitally and she will destroy everyone and everything around her.

[The Mighty Peanut]

My impression of why no one brought up exchanging Hannah was Hannah is not an intelligence asset whereas 22 resistance fighters would be valuable from an espionage standpoint.  That's 22 women who heard secret conversations with the commanders who like Fred who didn't think they were smart or important enough to bother being careful with privacy...22 people who know the best routes for getting troops from point A to point B...22 people who know about safehouses and weapon strongholds, and so on.

Also, even with the efforts of Joseph and Nick, Gilead's prime directive is grooming children to reproduce and perpetuate their religious beliefs....sending a child, especially a female, especially June's child, is too much of a sacrifice.

I could see them trading Hannah for June, so they could execute her as an example, but am glad they didn't go that direction.

Favorite line: "I have questions and I deserve answe--ah, fuck!"

Edited June 18, 2021 by The Mighty Peanut

[Cinnabon]

11 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Thinking about it, Luke is kind of a sourpuss, isn't he? So much so that it was understood without words that his and June's marriage was over...

I know if my SO had been the sex slave to a key figure in an autoritarian regime for years, I'd throw them a party once they got their, very, very, very improbable revenge.

Especially now that Fred is dead, it's mostly over, isn't it? She could finally move on, even if moving on might take years. Now she can start. So isn't that the best that could happen for you and your marriage, Luke?

It's weird. In american TV shows people are always morally outraged if the protagonist kills somebody, unless it's a nameless henchman of course, then it doesn't matter and is totally cool. I really don't get both of those directions and I don't think they are present or at least to a much lesser extend in european TV.

I don’t know what to make of Luke’s reaction either. I don’t think it necessarily means their marriage is over though.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, burghgal said:

First off, I get June has been through a LOT -- but we are talking about an entire group of people in Canada who have lost their country, friends, families and homes to these monsters. 

That's why June was not alone in that forest.  She wasn't the only one who finally got some justice that night.  

 

6 minutes ago, burghgal said:

I fast forward all her scenes.  I feel it would be so much better to have her character integrate with the overall nation/world building and the legit questions of what do you do with POWs, info sources, etc. so you can legit WIN the war -- not just a battle and not just revenge.  Also, how did others see what was going on in Gilead from the outside, how did things get here with the birth rate, etc.?

Well, not watching any June scenes will not get you any of the answers you want.  It's called The Handmaid's Tale, and June is the narrator and main character of this story.

They have addressed the birthrate questions throughout the show.  There is a bit more in the books, but honestly, not much.  That tale really has been told in the show.

As far as actual battles and winning the wars against Gilead?  That would be a different book.  Luckily we have a sequel out there now, and Hulu has bought the rights to that book.

[EllaWycliffe]

8 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Thinking about it, Luke is kind of a sourpuss, isn't he? So much so that it was understood without words that his and June's marriage was over...

I know if my SO had been the sex slave to a key figure in an autoritarian regime for years, I'd throw them a party once they got their, very, very, very improbable revenge.

Especially now that Fred is dead, it's mostly over, isn't it? She could finally move on, even if moving on might take years. Now she can start. So isn't that the best that could happen for you and your marriage, Luke?

One thing they didn't really touch on at all is how Luke and June just got slammed back together after 7 years apart with a huge amount of baggage between then. There are all sorts of reasons why its best June and Luke separate but we got nothing in explanation. As written, it comes out of no where since Luke has previously been supportive and frankly had no love for Fred. Its poor writing.

[FierceCritter]

4 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Can someone debrief on that image of the hanging corpse at the end?:

• I presume it was Fred, but where?
• Why was it wearing a white jacket/coat?
• What was the source of the Latin inscription ("Don't let the bastards get you down"?) below the body?
• What was the inscription's significance? Was it what June saw on that closet wall a few seasons ago?

I believe it was the remains of a building in the woods where they killed him.
I thought it was a jacket, too. It's his dress shirt hanging open. He has an undershirt on underneath it.
I could be remembering wrong, but I believe that inscription was carved into the floor in the closet at June's room at the Waterford's. It kept her going for a while.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t know what to make of Luke’s reaction either. I don’t think it necessarily means their marriage is over though.

Very true.

I think they have one common goal though, getting Hannah back.  

The issue is the methods to do that.  Luke's tried everything he can from Canada, and as hard as he's worked, he's not made any progress.  He THINKS he knows what Gilead is like, but he hasn't lived it, and he's never been a woman, so honestly?  He doesn't know much, he kind of closes down at the horrors, wants to cap it, put it in a box, leave it behind and move forward.

That just isn't possible for June.  Luke saying 'Well, now I know everything so we can move on." was an example of this.

No, dude, you don't know 1/20th of it, and how dare you decide when June, or any woman who lived in hell in Gilead should "move on?"

June may face justice herself, and I don't think she will want Luke tainted with her actions.  Also, she's not done, and I don't think she will be "done" until Hannah is back and Gilead is "done.'  

Luke can either join the fight, or stay safe in Canada and ignore it.  June's made her choice.  I honestly think she'd prefer he stay put, stay safe, and keep Nicole safe.  I'm not sure what choice he will make there.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, dmc said:

They have been living in a barbaric world.  I don't think it's feminist fantasy to see someone who stole your life pay.  I am fairly certain if you talk to male victims, they probably have the same fantasies.  Especially when the justice system fails them.  June had every intention of letting the government try Fred.  And they screwed her over.  Not only did they screw her over, but they screwed her in the most callous way possible.  June tells Tuello...the weakness of men in power she means him.  She came to Canada expecting justice from men like Tuello and he basically again placed a male over the women hurt.  It is what it is.  Gilead is largely a place that places men over women and then she came to Canada to have the same.  I can understand not condoning this but the fact that people cannot understand the rage of not being able to control your own body and having your child stolen from you

Exactly. How many times in real life have we seen a man attack or murder someone for revenge, whether it's an incel who perceived women as rejecting him or a man who went after the person who attacked/raped/murdered his wife/daughter? But when a female character seeks the same kind of vengeance, somehow it's a feminist fantasy? June and these women were raped and abused for years and they thought they were going to get some amount of legal justice when Fred was arrested. Tuello led June to believe that the trial would achieve just that, knowing that his plan all along was just to scare Fred into turning.

For many of the other handmaids, it didn't matter that Fred hadn't been their commander. He represented every commander in Gilead who had raped them five nights a week every month for years in the name of a ritual and then took their babies away in the name of repopulating Gilead, every commander who came to Jezebel's forcing them to pretend that they wanted to flirt and have sex with them so that they wouldn't be sent to the colonies, every commander who had his friends gang rape them. June and all of the handmaids knew that they would not see all of the shitbags in Gilead put on trial one by one. Fred was supposed to be the one who gave them all a moment of justice after years of abuse.

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Of course, I cant lie and say that I didn't at least get a lot of enjoyment out of Fred losing that smug smirk and increasingly freaking out as he realized how fucked he was and that his perfect little life was being pulled away. I am thrilled that he is just finally gone and off my screen after finally getting what was coming to him, even if it wasn't in the way that I wanted it to happen. Fred is such a dumbass and generally shitty excuse for a person, I am tickled that he is done and gone, especially as this show has a bad habit of keeping characters around way longer than they should. Of course when it comes down to it all he can do is scream "I'M A MAN!" and try to weakly manipulate Nick and Lawrence, who could not be any happier to watch him suffer, what a pathetic sack of crap. Serena is a much more interesting villain, I cant wait to see what terrible fate will befall her, hopefully it will be more karmic and less fanservice this time. Or god help me if they try to make her out to be sympathetic like the show has tried a few times, I hope that June letting lose and calling her out for being a shitty person means that she is going to very much get what is coming to her.

As much as I've wanted Fred and his smarmy arrogant smirk off my screen since S1, watching him lose his calm cool demeanor from the moment that Tuello informed him that he wasn't going to Geneva to his desperate pleas to Nick and June ("You are a good and kind woman, and you're a mother!") were actually much more satisfying to watch than his actual death.

Fred was definitely a what you see is what you get kind of villain because he was very obvious in his actions and his motivations. He wanted power and he enjoyed subjugating women so for all intents and purposes, he was pretty simple. Serena, on the other hand, is much smarter than Fred ever was and much more calculating. As great as it would be to have her karmic retribution be returning to Gilead and forced to be a handmaid, I think the most painful thing for her to endure would be having her child taken away from her so that's what I'm hoping we will see next season since we got robbed of Fred being put on trial. I wanted at least one of them to have to endure the punishment of the Gilead system they helped create.

2 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

Can't wait for Serena to get what's coming to her, especially after the way she was speaking to Tuello. Lady, you and your husband are in jail for war crimes...that you actually committed and admit to! Bitch, you don't get to demand shit from anyone.

I KNOW, RIGHT? He was in custody for raping and abusing multiple women, but Serena was out in the hallway demanding better wifi and that the interrogator address him as commander.

1 hour ago, EllaWycliffe said:

I wasn't paying attention to details... was Moira in the killing squad? Rita? Or just Emily?

I only saw Emily. In the episode with Moira leading the survivors' group, Moira was clearly very anti-revenge. This week Rita told June and Moira that she wanted no part of dealing with Fred. Later when they were discussing his deal, Moira and Rita talked about him getting sent back to Gilead, being put on trial, and ending up in jail or the colonies. They said it would be a type of justice. Moira then said she didn't care about knowing what happened to him because she just wanted him gone because she had already spent too much of her life thinking about him. Based on all that, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Moira and Rita were not part of the no man's land particulation.

7 hours ago, Trillian said:

When Fred kept calling Nick “son”, I was so expecting (and rather hoping that) he would reply “don’t call me son. I’m an officer and a lawyer and you’re under arrest you son of a bitch.”

I was shaking my head during that scene. He clearly thought that addressing Nick as "son" would remind Nick that Fred was his elder/superior and elicit an imaginary familial bond and loyalty that never existed. And once again, Fred is so incapable of reading the room that when it didn't work the first time, he just kept kicking that dead horse, continuing to call him "son" in a way that managed to make him sound equal parts desperate and insulting.

[Zonk]

Btw. where did they get that nomansland from? The prisoner exchange was on a bridge, so I assume the river was the border. Nomansland in general is rare these days. I guess with a newly formed country like Gilead more plausible, but it's basically unheard of with a river border. One country extends to one shore and the other to the other shore (well sometimes the border is in the exact middle of the river, it depends). So there is nomanswater at best.

You'd assume the border would follow the river for a long while. So did they drive like a hundret miles to get to nomansland? Or were they just super lucky that the border split off from the river right there? Then how did all the refugees including June get onto the Gilead-side of the river, or rather the nomanslandside of the river that has to be bordering on Gilead. Or if it's not bordering Gilead on the south side of the river, but Canada on the north-side of the river, how did Nick get back across the river? Are there still bridges everywhere? Are those not guarded?

Really unimportant detail, but that's what my brain likes to think about while watching this show where so much doesn't make sense.

[Bannon]

14 minutes ago, Zonk said:

Thinking about it, Luke is kind of a sourpuss, isn't he? So much so that it was understood without words that his and June's marriage was over...

I know if my SO had been the sex slave to a key figure in an autoritarian regime for years, I'd throw them a party once they got their, very, very, very improbable revenge.

Especially now that Fred is dead, it's mostly over, isn't it? She could finally move on, even if moving on might take years. Now she can start. So isn't that the best that could happen for you and your marriage, Luke?

It's weird. In american TV shows people are always morally outraged if the protagonist kills somebody, unless it's a nameless henchman of course, then it doesn't matter and is totally cool. I really don't get both of those directions and I don't think they are present or at least to a much lesser extend in european TV.

While it is indeed true that everything is relative, I couldn't believe that the writers made Luke such a towering moron as to say to his wife, after having suffered years of slavery and torture, that they needed to count their blessings, in response to his wife being enraged about the imminent freedom of one of her chief torturers. Good grief, I hope the actor had the courage to try to push back at least a little, in response to being given this line. Oh, well, coulda' been worse; the script might have had Luke sayin', "Hey, June? Let's turn that frown upside down!!!".

[Cinnabon]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Very true.

I think they have one common goal though, getting Hannah back.  

The issue is the methods to do that.  Luke's tried everything he can from Canada, and as hard as he's worked, he's not made any progress.  He THINKS he knows what Gilead is like, but he hasn't lived it, and he's never been a woman, so honestly?  He doesn't know much, he kind of closes down at the horrors, wants to cap it, put it in a box, leave it behind and move forward.

That just isn't possible for June.  Luke saying 'Well, now I know everything so we can move on." was an example of this.

No, dude, you don't know 1/20th of it, and how dare you decide when June, or any woman who lived in hell in Gilead should "move on?"

June may face justice herself, and I don't think she will want Luke tainted with her actions.  Also, she's not done, and I don't think she will be "done" until Hannah is back and Gilead is "done.'  

Luke can either join the fight, or stay safe in Canada and ignore it.  June's made her choice.  I honestly think she'd prefer he stay put, stay safe, and keep Nicole safe.  I'm not sure what choice he will make there.

I’m sure Luke wishes June had more of Moira’s attitude - it’s over, we’ve escaped and let’s try to move on. But June went though a lot more in Gilead and is a different person. And without people like her, Gilead will never fall. She didn’t choose to be the person she became, but there she is. Maybe she’s more like her mother than she ever thought.

[The Mighty Peanut]

1 hour ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t know what to make of Luke’s reaction either. I don’t think it necessarily means their marriage is over though.

I think deep down he knows they are doomed. He has the luxury of focusing on the positive because he hasn't spent years as a sex slave under constant threat of torture and death. Moira got out of there under different circumstances and wants to heal peacefully, Emily seems to be the embodiment of that old saying about having two wolves inside of us (good and evil) and choosing which one to feed, Rita wants to let the wheels of justice do their work which is probably easier as she was "only" made into a house slave but was never raped, and June just wants to straight up kill everyone. They aren't compatible anymore. It bums me out because I never liked Luke much until this season.

Edited June 16, 2021 by The Mighty Peanut

[Zonk]

18 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I don’t know what to make of Luke’s reaction either. I don’t think it necessarily means their marriage is over though.

June said in response to Luke's reaction "I know. I'm sorry. Just give me five minutes [with my daughter], okay? Just give me five minutes with her, then I'll go." (to Luke)

"Mommy loves you, mommy loves you so much." (to her daughter)

That's dramatic-TV-language for signing the divorce papers and giving up custody rights to your kid.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Zonk

[Umbelina]

Luke, in this story, has always been a "regular guy" who allowed bad things to happen, because they were not happening to HIM.

From the very first episodes, that's been Luke.  He laughed when June's money was taken from her bank account and given to him.  "I'll take care of you, no big deal!"  He would NOT leave when June wanted him to leave, because it was not happening to HIM.

He is the very essence of "when they came for the ......, I did nothing."

Now, he's a bit better, but he still believes that justice will take care of things, that wrongs will be righted, while some other people somewhere actually fight in wars to bring down corruption, or protest in the streets while machined gunned down.

June knows that she has to fight, especially now, after her one hope Tuello and what's left of the USA completely let her and justice itself down.  Justice doesn't just happen.  Revolutions and down and dirty fighting make it happen.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Umbelina
typo now not know

[Cinnabon]

2 minutes ago, Zonk said:

June said in response to Luke's reaction "I know. I'm sorry. Just give me five minutes [with my daughter], okay? Just give me five minutes with her, then I'll go." (to Luke)

"Mommy loves you, mommy loves you so much." (to her daughter)

That's dramatic-TV-language for signing the divorce papers and giving up custody rights for your kid.

I know she said those things, but I’m just not sure the writers won’t try to retcon and take it in a different direction next season.

[Zonk]

Just now, Cinnabon said:

I know she said those things, but I’m just not sure the writers won’t try to retcon and take it in a different direction next season.

That's fair. Or the writers might just forget that she said those things, as they forget most things.

[Cinnabon]

1 minute ago, Umbelina said:

Luke, in this story, has always been a "regular guy" who allowed bad things to happen, because they were not happening to HIM.

From the very first episodes, that's been Luke.  He laughed when June's money was taken from her bank account and given to him.  "I'll take care of you, no big deal!"  He would NOT leave when June wanted him to leave, because it was not happening to HIM.

He is the very essence of "when they came for the ......, I did nothing."

Now, he's a bit better, but he still believes that justice will take care of things, that wrongs will be righted, while some other people somewhere actually fight in wars to bring down corruption, or protest in the streets while machined gunned down.

June knows that she has to fight, especially know, after her one hope Tuello and what's left of the USA completely let her and justice itself down.  Justice doesn't just happen.  Revolutions and down and dirty fighting make it happen.

Honestly, isn’t Luke like MOST people in these situations? How many of us actually stand up and fight? This particular time in the country’s history is a great example of that, IMO.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

He THINKS he knows what Gilead is like, but he hasn't lived it, and he's never been a woman, so honestly?  He doesn't know much, he kind of closes down at the horrors, wants to cap it, put it in a box, leave it behind and move forward.

That just isn't possible for June.  Luke saying 'Well, now I know everything so we can move on." was an example of this.

No, dude, you don't know 1/20th of it, and how dare you decide when June, or any woman who lived in hell in Gilead should "move on?"

ITA - Luke thought that he understood what June had been through after hearing her very clinical testimony at Fred's pre-trial hearing. It's one thing to hear your wife say, "Mr. Waterford raped me while his wife held me down. This happened for three successive nights every month when I was ovulating. [Mrs. Waterford] ordered me to have sex with their driver, another violation of Gilead law that I could not refuse. Mr. Blaine and I had intercourse while Mrs. Waterford was in the room watching us the entire time." It's another thing completely to live through years of being violated while you're forced to pretend you aren't screaming inside.

Luke thinks that just because he heard her testimony, he gets what she went through, but despite all the Gilead refugees he's met, helped, and worked with since he got to Canada, he doesn't comprehend even a fraction of the pain, violation, humiliation, frustration, fear, and anger that June lived with for years while she was a handmaid. Obviously life wasn't easy for him once he got to Canada, but he wasn't tortured at the red center, forbidden to read, under constant threat of abuse/execution, etc. And obviously, it's a good thing that he didn't have to experience any of that, but June's been in Canada all of maybe a month and he's clearly ready for her to just get over her years of abuse and pep up. Unfortunately, trauma doesn't work like that.

[Umbelina]

2 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Honestly, isn’t Luke like MOST people in these situations? How many of us actually stand up and fight? This particular time in the country’s history is a great example of that, IMO.

Exactly.

 

[Bannon]

2 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Luke, in this story, has always been a "regular guy" who allowed bad things to happen, because they were not happening to HIM.

From the very first episodes, that's been Luke.  He laughed when June's money was taken from her bank account and given to him.  "I'll take care of you, no big deal!"  He would NOT leave when June wanted him to leave, because it was not happening to HIM.

He is the very essence of "when they came for the ......, I did nothing."

Now, he's a bit better, but he still believes that justice will take care of things, that wrongs will be righted, while some other people somewhere actually fight in wars to bring down corruption, or protest in the streets while machined gunned down.

June knows that she has to fight, especially know, after her one hope Tuello and what's left of the USA completely let her and justice itself down.  Justice doesn't just happen.  Revolutions and down and dirty fighting make it happen.

I now hope they go all the way with the character and give him a musical scene next season, with him singing Monty Python's "Always Look at the Bright Side of Life", with maybe a little soft tap-dancing....

[Zonk]

6 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Luke thinks that just because he heard her testimony, he gets what she went through, but despite all the Gilead refugees he's met, helped, and worked with since he got to Canada, he doesn't comprehend even a fraction of the pain, violation, humiliation, frustration, fear, and anger that June lived with for years while she was a handmaid.

Which would make him a massive dumbass... But I guess that's consistent characterisation for him...

[Bannon]

4 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Exactly.

 

There is a thousand mile gulf between having the courage to stand and fight, and being too stupid to refrain from telling your spouse, after enduring years of torture, to count their blessings.

[Umbelina]

5 minutes ago, Bannon said:

There is a thousand mile gulf between having the courage to stand and fight, and being too stupid to refrain from telling your spouse, after enduring years of torture, to count their blessings.

Not really.

I've been doing cancer support for over 20 years.  I've heard many, and much more inappropriate and unhelpful "positive thinking" crap relayed from extremely upset cancer patients.

Luke's just your average guy really.  

Edited June 16, 2021 by Umbelina

[tennisgurl]

Ugh, of course Serena is demanding faster internet and a fancy realtor while her husband is admitting to multiple counts of rape, abuse, and all kinds of other horrors. Even while on trail for possible war crimes and treason, she is still the world biggest Karen. 

[Bannon]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Not really.

I've been doing cancer support for over 20 years.  I've heard many much more inappropriate and unhelpful "positive thinking" crap relayed from extremely upset cancer patients.

Luke's just your average guy really.  

Engaging in positive thinking crap is nothing like not having the courage to stand and fight a totalitarian regime. Yes, people say stupid crap. They've just written this character to say and do stupid crap with great frequency. Yes, people like that exist. They are tedious. In my opinion, it is a mistake to give a lot of screen time to characters like that, except for purposes of comic relief. Which is why I want to see Luke sing his version of...

 

[Cinnabon]

21 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Not really.

I've been doing cancer support for over 20 years.  I've heard many, and much more inappropriate and unhelpful "positive thinking" crap relayed from extremely upset cancer patients.

Luke's just your average guy really.  

I wish I could disagree with you, but this has been my life experience as well. 🥲 I no longer wonder why most German citizens didn’t stand up while the Holocaust was happening (or during the long run up to it).

9 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Engaging in positive thinking crap is nothing like not having the courage to stand and fight a totalitarian regime. Yes, people say stupid crap. They've just written this character to say and do stupid crap with great frequency. Yes, people like that exist. They are tedious. In my opinion, it is a mistake to give a lot of screen time to characters like that, except for purposes of comic relief. Which is why I want to see Luke sing his version of...

 

You’re 100 right, but sadly my experience is that too many are like this.  If not the ridiculous “positive thinking” comments, it’s the “I’ll pray on it “ delusions .Yes, I am very jaded and cynical about the human race at this point!

Edited June 16, 2021 by Cinnabon

[Pixel]

Am I the only one who has gotten vibes all along that there was at the very least an offscreen one-night stand with Serena and Tuello? I'm still thinking that Waterford is infertile and that Serena's baby is Tuello's. I know, it's too soapy to even deal with imagining. But I've gotten the vibe from Tuello and Serena that there's more to them than we've seen since the beginning of the season.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

I wish I could disagree with you, but this has been my life experience as well. 🥲 I no longer wonder why most German citizens didn’t stand up while the Holocaust was happening (or during the long run up to it).

You’re 100 right, but sadly my experience is that too many are like this. Yes, I am very jaded and cynical about the human race at this point!

The % of people who have the courage to stand and fight immense malevolent power, before there is no other choice for reasons of self-preservation, might be less than 5%. 95 out of 100 people were not so dumb as to tell a Holocaust survivor to count their blessings. 

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, Pixel said:

Am I the only one who has gotten vibes all along that there was at the very least an offscreen one-night stand with Serena and Tuello? I'm still thinking that Waterford is infertile and that Serena's baby is Tuello's. I know, it's too soapy to even deal with imagining. But I've gotten the vibe from Tuello and Serena that there's more to them than we've seen since the beginning of the season.

Nope.

First reason?  They would never leave that offscreen.

Second reason?  The timing of the pregnancy fits with her sex with Fred.

Third reason?  Tuello is not completely stupid.

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The % of people who have the courage to stand and fight immense malevolent power, before there is no other choice for reasons of self-preservation, might be less than 5%. 95 out of 100 people were not so dumb as to tell a Holocaust survivor to count their blessings. 

Exactly, and June is one of those 5%.

I've read a few books during lockdown, OK, WAY more than a few, but a couple were on female spies who lead resistance fighters in France.  They were already fighting, but the female spies coordinated with outside forces for supplies, food, weapons, directions of the most effective places to fight, how to blow up a bridge that would be crucial to D Day, and they risked their lives daily to do all of that.  There were many close calls with the Gestapo, and one was "most wanted" for quite a while by Nazi high command.

In some ways they did remind me of June.  Idealistic, acting fearlessly, all the while knowing they would probably die sooner or later, but believing in the cause, and fighting until the wars were won.  Some didn't survive of course, but the books I read were specifically about those who did.

You never know who will be a freedom fighter, and risk all for justice.  June will, and has.

Luke is like the 95%.  I doubt he will, but he might surprise us all in the end.

ETA

Emily is in the 5% as well, and always has been.  She was the one who recruited June into Mayday, and had been working with them.  She was the one who stole that car and drove it over soldiers.  She was the one who killed that wife in the colonies.  She was the one who stabbed Aunt Lydia and tried to kill her.  She also carried a baby, Nicole, during her escape to Canada.  

She's a fighter too.  I'm not at all surprised she was with the others who particulated and then hung Fred.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Umbelina

[Bannon]

Just now, Umbelina said:

Nope.

First reason?  They would never leave that offscreen.

Second reason?  The timing of the pregnancy fits with her sex with Fred.

Third reason?  Tuello is not completely stupid.

Exactly, and June is one of those 5%.

I've read a few books during lockdown, OK, WAY more than a few, but a couple were on female spies who lead resistance fighters in France.  They were already fighting, but the female spies coordinated with outside forces for supplies, food, weapons, directions of the most effective places to fight, how to blow up a bridge that would be crucial to D Day, and they risked their lives daily to do all of that.  There were many close calls with the Gestapo, and one was "most wanted" for quite a while by Nazi high command.

In some ways they did remind me of June.  Idealistic, acting fearlessly, all the while knowing they would probably die sooner or later, but believing in the cause, and fighting until the wars were won.  Some didn't survive of course, but the books I read were specifically about those who did.

You never know who will be a freedom fighter, and risk all for justice.  June will, and has.

Luke is like the 95%.  I doubt he will, but he might surprise us all in the end.

The point I am making is that "regular guys" have plenty enough brains to refrain from telling a Holocaust survivor to cheer up. Luke isn't written as a "regular guy". He's written as a tedious dolt, and that's a writing mistake for a major character, except comically, or in some cases a minor villain.

[The Mighty Peanut]

Serena and Fred don't really even need a house, they already live in the lap of luxury in the jail loft where they can come and go freely and get unsupervised visits whenever they want, as well as a full wardrobe and apparently free wi-fi.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, The Mighty Peanut said:

Serena and Fred don't really even need a house, they already live in the lap of luxury in the jail loft where they can come and go freely and get unsupervised visits whenever they want, as well as a full wardrobe and apparently free wi-fi.

Hell, Fred had a wet bar with top shelf booze! I don't wanna hurt anybody, but can I be a prisoner in a Toronto jail like that, if I cross the border, and get nabbed for shoplifting?

[Umbelina]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

EllaWycliffe said:

I wasn't paying attention to details... was Moira in the killing squad? Rita? Or just Emily?

Moira just wanted Fred "gone." 

She didn't get her hands dirty.  She was never a handmaid, didn't participate in particulations.

[Cinnabon]

30 minutes ago, Bannon said:

The % of people who have the courage to stand and fight immense malevolent power, before there is no other choice for reasons of self-preservation, might be less than 5%. 95 out of 100 people were not so dumb as to tell a Holocaust survivor to count their blessings. 

95 out of 100? You have more faith in people than I do! 🤣

11 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Hell, Fred had a wet bar with top shelf booze! I don't wanna hurt anybody, but can I be a prisoner in a Toronto jail like that, if I cross the border, and get nabbed for shoplifting?

Exactly. I’ll be first in line!

[Bannon]

1 minute ago, Cinnabon said:

95 out of 100? You have more faith in people than I do! 🤣

You really think that 95 out of 100 people told Holocaust survivors to count their blessings?

[Cinnabon]

Just now, Bannon said:

You really think that 95 out of 100 people told Holocaust survivors to count their blessings?

No, but more than 5% did.

[Umbelina]

So, Tuello didn't know June planned that particulation, right?

He turned Fred over Lawrence to guarantee safe passage of Fred to Gilead or something?

I loved the whole finger being delivered to Serena.  It wasn't through the mail, and the courier was probably one of the women involved in the particulation.

Edited June 16, 2021 by Umbelina

[mustbekarma]

I may be going straight to hell, but I was never so escatic to see a villain receive his glorious comeuppance as I was to see Fred Waterford expire in the most Gilead way.

You do reap what you sow. Force handmaids to murder in the name of your precious Gilead, and you get murdered the same fucking way. 

Fred was so sure of his power. Then Tuello betrayed him. Lawrence didn't really give a rat's ass. Nick literally told him you reap what you sow. June gives Fred a choice in how to die, and delusional Fred thinks June doesn't have the guts. Then the women beat the everloving crap out of him. 

I only hope Fred was still alive and cognizant when he was hung from the wall.  The powerful bastard finally understood what it was to lose everything and be completely powerless.

I still believe this was perfect Gilead justice. Note to stupid, powerful men in Gilead. You literally trained your handmaids to be killers and punished them for dropping the stones and not killing.  In retrospect, that was not so smart, was it?

My second favorite moment was Serena demanding priveleges from Tuello. Wait. I have a point. She always made herself look like a helpless victim to Tuello. Now he got to see the power hungry sadist that she's always been. I was so amused, because somebody forgot she was still riding in her husband's coat-tails for the immunity agreement.

I just loved this episode.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by mustbekarma

[Helena Dax]

I think Tuello saw Serena as a victim first. Even Wives are second-rate citizens in Gilead. Also, she's beautiful, and humans tend to equate beauty with good. But his idea of her became shaky when he heard she had forced June and Nick to have sex and in this episode, he saw the real Serena. Imo, Tuello was disappointed, not jealous: the fact that she wanted to stay with Fred was proof that she has no moral compass and that she doesn't give a fuck about all the horrible things he's done. I doubt Tuello will want a relationship with her.

[ReganX]

Four seasons of waiting to see Fred die, and I was not disappointed with how he went out. Much more fitting than a hanging.

I was, however, disappointed by the lack of common sense shown over the disposal of the carcass. I hoped that the women who banded together to reduce the world rapist population by one would bury it in a shallow grave or roll it into a pond or something, clean up and go back to their lives because Fred wasn't worth wasting another thought on. Canada and Serena assume that Fred was executed by Gilead for sharing information, Gilead assumes that Fred sang like a canary in Canada and is living in Witness Protection. In a couple of months time, Serena gives birth and is informed that, while she serves her long, long prison sentence since she has no sufficiently useful information to barter for her freedom, her son will be adopted by a lovely atheist couple.

I'm assuming that Lawrence, Nick and a small number of Eyes that Nick trusts (or has excellent blackmail material on) were the only ones to know of the swap and that it was not officially sanctioned, otherwise staying in Gilead would be suicide for Lawrence and Nick.

Luke's reaction to June's return was irritating. In addition to regularly raping June, Fred was one of the chief architects of the system of government that stole Hannah.

I'm hoping against hope that June doesn't plan to confess to killing Fred. Even going on the run would be a stupid move.

If nothing else, June Osborne disappearing from the public eye immediately after Fred's battered carcass is found hanging on a wall, and Serena has been sent his finger by messenger, makes it absurdly clear to Gilead that she was responsible, and risks reprisals against Hannah. For Hannah's sake, if nothing else, Luke and June need to stay together and feign complete ignorance over Fred's end.

[Bannon]

3 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

So, Tuello didn't know June planned that particulation, right?

He turned Fred over Lawrence to guarantee safe passage of Fred to Gilead or something?

I loved the whole finger being delivered to Serena.  It wasn't through the mail, and the courier was probably one of the women involved in the particulation.

It wasn't delivered to Serena, and it would have been even more ridiculous writing if she had actually received it. Which raises the question of why send it to her, other than the women who executed Fred not being bright enough to understand that, no, Serena isn't going to open a package with Fred's finger inside, or not being bright enough to understand that if shock value is what the goal is, you put Fred's head on a post in the busiest part of Toronto. I thought it was another instance of the writers going for a visual at the expense of narrative coherence.

[Umbelina]

3 minutes ago, mustbekarma said:

I may be going straight to hell, but I was never so escatic to see a villain receive his glorious comeuppance as I was to see Fred Waterford expire in the most Gilead way.

You do reap what you sow. Force handmaids to murder in the name of your precious Gilead, and you get murdered the same fucking way. 

Fred was so sure of his power. Then Tuello betrayed him. Lawrence didn't really give a rat's ass. Nick literally told him you reap what you sow. June gives Fred a choice in how to die, and delusional Fred thinks June doesn't have the guts. Then the women beat the everloving crap out of him. 

I only hope Fred was still alive and cognizant when he was hung from the wall.  The powerful bastard finally understood what it was to lose everything and be completely powerless.

I still believe this was perfect Gilead justice. Note to stupid, powerful men in Gilead. You literally trained your handmaids to be killers and punished them for dropping the stones and not killing.  In retrospect, that was not so smart, was it?

My second favorite moment was Serena demanding priveleges from Tuello. Wait. I have a point. She always made herself look like a helpless victim to Tuello. Now he got to see the power hungry sadist that she's always been. I was so amused, because somebody forgot she was still riding in her husband's coat-tails for the immunity agreement.

I just loved this episode.

 

 

Me too!

I've really enjoyed this whole season, but especially the back half!

This was completely satisfying to me, and normally I close my eyes during violence like that.  This time?  I was as "bad" as those handmaids.  I wanted to see and enjoy every single moment.

Those "moments" started long before the actual execution of Fred, and they were all perfection.  Her kissing "boy" Nick in front of Fred was out there, but in the end, that was perfect as well.  

I loved seeing the additional scenes of Jezebel's mixed in too, showing even more of things June, and all the other women were made to suppress and fake.

I'm watching it again.

[Bannon]

Now, if the women had figured out a way to smuggle Fred's head into Gilead, stick it on a post in some symbol of Gilead's power, that would have been a worthwhile exercise. I guess that's one of the things that's annoyed me about this season; how few of the characters are imbued with an intense focus that a war is being fought, and that it has to be won.

[ReganX]

4 minutes ago, mustbekarma said:

Note to stupid, powerful men in Gilead. You literally trained your handmaids to be killers and punished them for dropping the stones and not killing.  In retrospect, that was not so smart, was it?

My second favorite moment was Serena demanding priveleges from Tuello. Wait. I have a point. She always made herself look like a helpless victim to Tuello. Now he got to see the power hungry sadist that she's always been. I was so amused, because somebody forgot she was still riding in her husband's coat-tails for the immunity agreement.

In the epilogue of the book, it's suggested that Particicution was intended as a release for the Handmaids, to give them the satisfaction of tearing a man apart with their bare hands.

The show handles the Handmaids' role in executions differently. With hangings, for example, in the book, the Handmaids touch a length of rope as a symbolic participation in the hanging. On the show, they are doing the work when the Marthas are executed, physically pulling the ropes to open the trapdoors. I would say that, in the show, having the Handmaids participate in executions is a combination of framing the Handmaids as having an important role as the instruments of God and Gilead, making them complicit in the crimes of Gilead, and providing regular reminders of what can happen to them if they step out of line.

That's a great point about Serena showing her true nature to Tuello. I imagine that he was thinking of June's warning about her when she ditched her helpless victim persona in favour of being Fred's dragon.

I wonder how long it will take for Serena to realize that she's screwed with Fred dead.

[Umbelina]

I think Serena will know she's screwed pretty damn fast, and I'm here for that!

That oncologist that was given the name Riley in Jezebels.  I feel like we already knew of her death, but I can't remember it, which makes me sad.

Does anyone remember how she died?  A B&D "game" that went to the ultimate conclusion?

ETA some cool videos out today, I just posted one interviewing Joseph Fiennes.  I'll probably post more.  

Edited June 16, 2021 by Umbelina

[Umbelina]

Not a preview, this is the "inside the episode" for Wilderness.

[EllaWycliffe]

So, deeper thoughts. I do love that Fred is dead and while I can quibble over whether I prefer Fred getting it from his Gilead buddies is better than Fred torn apart by wronged female victims... gotta be honest, both satisfy for different reasons. Fred on the wall, with the latin phrase, was emotionally satisfying.

That said, the writing really has fallen apart. I'm sorry but we've been told repeatedly that Gilead is shut down, no info coming in or out, the borders locked up tight. The initial capture of Fred I can hand wave at as a one off border weirdness exploit. But are we really supposed to believe that knowing that a high level official defected/was captured simply by driving across the border, that the border on Gilead's side wouldn't be wrapped up double tight since?

The casual movement of Lawrence, a high level official, across the border to make deals on Gilead's behalf just boggles. Likewise Nick magically being in enough communication to organize a prisoner transfer of women, and to divert Fred to... some magical no man's land that not only isn't locked up tight on both sides, but has plenty of space for June to run her version of the Hunger Games with 20+ fugitive handmaids willing to risk recapture to kill Fred. Have these people ever been to Canada and the border? If you cross the border by going over a bridge and you're in Ontario - then you're crossing the St. Lawrence river. Which is fine but you then have to account for how June and her handmaid posse got across the river. It's not "no man's land", it's Gilead proper. The border is so super guarded, Emily was lucky to cross alive... but now handmaids can cross for murder parties in the woods? Murder parties that were *hardly stealthy*, I might add. 

Fred's info was inaccurate and he was not being a willing participant in his debrief. I know Serena is a bitch but her high handedness was incredible considering that Fred had agreed willingly to betray Gilead. I'm also calling bullshit on the need to be questioning Fred on how the oncologist died at Jezebel's - not that the family doesn't deserve closure but because Fred is apparently a font of wisdom on Gilead, and our most important need isn't info on the government but how a specific woman died? He's been given full immunity in exchange for info that is vitally important, and this is what's being asked? And he's allowed to blow off the question?

I still don't understand why June assumed Luke would want her to leave and to be blunt, I see utterly no reason why she can't take her daughter by a different man with her. 

[Penman61]

39 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Now, if the women had figured out a way to smuggle Fred's head into Gilead, stick it on a post in some symbol of Gilead's power, that would have been a worthwhile exercise. 

Since we didn't actually see Fred's dead head, I'm thinking 1) It's the Season 5 opening image, and 2) This could be the beginning of the Game of Thrones/Handmaid's Tale crossover event everyone's been clamoring for.*

 

*No one's been clamoring for this.

[AntFTW]

Also, one thing I thought about is the 22 people they exchanged for Fred... I don't know if all 22 people were marthas but if they were, I imagine that 22 marthas, or even 10 marthas, would have far more valuable intel than Fred would since Commanders seem to talk freely as if marthas were actual flies on the wall.

I can see that being a far better use of "assets" rather than using Fred.

Edited June 16, 2021 by AntFTW